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^^Spot on, which is why "subsidizing" renewables is vital to our country's future. All the folks losing their minds are being short-sighted. While I agree in

by tw04 3y ago

^^Spot on, which is why "subsidizing" renewables is vital to our country's future. All the folks losing their minds are being short-sighted. While I agree in principle that the organizations should be paying their employees more, there's also the reality that China HEAVILY subsidizes their renewables AND has a lower base pay rate. Only one way to compete with that.

panick21_ 3y ago
Lithium isn't 'renewable'. And just 'subsidizing' things isn't a replacement for actually playing your energy grid and energy production.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > Lithium isn't 'renewable' Neither are photons [1] nor individual gusts of wind. Lithium has a theoretically closeable cycle in batteries in a way fossil fuels do not. [1] If you want to be pedantic, the useful energy in a particular photon.
  - gibolt 3y ago
    Exactly. Batteries are being recycled at scale today with 98-95% material recovery rates, depending on the company. We are still early in the development cycle of recycling technology, which means we'll be closer to 99.x% in a decade when the first large wave of EV batteries (from the last decade) could start getting close to End of Life.
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      Batteries can be recycled at high rates of recovery, but most non-EV lithium batteries aren’t being recycled (basically because they aren’t sent to battery recycling centers given their small sizes). The anti-EV crowd then uses that statistic to deride EVS.
      - r00fus 3y ago
        But the value of nickel in say a NiMH battery makes it feasible to reclaim/“recycle”
        seanmcdirmid 3y ago
        Most small batteries are sent to landfills, whether they have lithium or nickel. EV batteries and nickel car batteries are easier to recycle because there is an auto shop involved to collect and send the battery to a recycler. If you replace your NiMH 12V battery yourself (rather than having it done in the shop), you might be tempted to just throw it away in your garbage can also (even though you shouldn’t) simply because you have no idea how to get it to a recycler. You are unlikely to change the big battery in your Tesla on your own, so that isn’t a problem. Battery recycling is really just a logistics problem.
        JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > Battery recycling is really just a logistics problem It’s also one of scale. We don’t yet have enough EV batteries being retired to merit the recycling infrastructure. China is just reaching the point where it does.
        seanmcdirmid 3y ago
        Most EV batteries that age out of car use can be repurposed for home/solar, so this is true. But they will eventually need to be recycled.
        barkingcat 3y ago
        In Canada at least, when you buy a car / ev battery depending on the chemistry you get a coupon that you redeem for a significant amount of money when you take your old replaced battery back to the place you bought the new battery. The vendor will take back any brand/regardless of where you got the old battery from. There are people who "throw away" the coupon by not returning the old battery, but hey that's on them.
  - panick21_ 3y ago
    My reaction was not pro-fossil fuel but rather that I think the use of 'renewable' as a statement of general positivity is idiotic. Sure there is a theoretical closable cycle in batteries, but guess what, the same can be said for fossil fuels. Just use energy to turn air and water back into fuel, boom cycle closed. What matters is not if something is 'renewable' but if its a strategically correct thing to do in regards to climate and energy security. Calling lithium 'renwable' is ridiculous. Its literally just a fixed resource on our plant like iron or copper or whatever.
    - unethical_ban 3y ago
      Besides brushing off the difference in difficulty between refreshing our petroleum stock on the planet and recycling lithium, I think the point of the original use of "renewables" is the push toward renewable energy for all possible things, such as transport, and the part lithium currently plays in that plan.
    - adrienthebo 3y ago
      > Sure there is a theoretical closable cycle in batteries, but guess what, the same can be said for fossil fuels. On geological time scales involving massive deposition of organic material. In contrast, lithium can be recovered from batteries with an industrial shredder and chemical processing. Fossil fuels are non-renewable in a trivial sense but are grossly different in a practical sense; treating them as equivalent is a borderline specious argument.
- gibolt 3y ago
  Oil is 100% non-renewable. A single, relatively efficient ICE vehicle will use over 45,000 lbs of gasoline over its lifetime (excluding all the oil to extract, refine, and transport that gasoline). The entire oil supply chain has no chance of ever becoming sustainable.
  - iancmceachern 3y ago
    So is lithium Since I'm being down voted, I'm adding a reference: 5% of lithium batteries are currently recycled https://www.cas.org/resources/cas-insights/sustainability/lithium-ion-battery-recycling#:~:text=A%20Review%20of%20the%20Current,8%20million%20tons%20of%20waste https://www.cas.org/resources/cas-insights/sustainability/li.... So, not renewable
    - somewhat_drunk 3y ago
      I can't tell if you actually believe your logic is sound or you're just trolling.
      - iancmceachern 3y ago
        A bit of both. I'm trying to say that it's not so cut and dry. Making lithium batteries and thr mining of lithium is a messy business. It's not a panacea. We need to be honest and realistic about the costs of doing that business, and often we arent. 75% of all aluminum every smelted is still in use today: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_recycling#:~:text=Today%2C%20about%2075%20percent%20of,recycling%20are%20taken%20into%20account https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_recycling#:~:text=.... We need to get lithium to that level before we make any more big, environmentally hazardous mines.
        zaroth 3y ago
        A chokehold on new mining of a crucial ore for renewables sounds like a terrible overall idea. The lifecycle of the lithium that will come from this hypothetical mine is probably 20 years from now until the first time the material will be recycled. The highly profitable recycling logistics will have been fully worked out a decade before it’s needed for a new mine’s output.
- tw04 3y ago
  >Lithium isn't 'renewable'. Sure, if you want to be painfully pedantic. If you want to have a real conversation, lithium batteries are absolutely "renewable" in the sense they can be recycled, and some studies have shown that they actually perform better after being recycled. https://www.redwoodmaterials.com/ https://www.redwoodmaterials.com/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/recycled-lithium-ion-batteries-can-perform-better-than-new-ones/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/recycled-lithium-...
eru 3y ago
> ^^Spot on, which is why "subsidizing" renewables is vital to our country's future. That seems like a silly conclusion. It might still be vital for your country's future to subsidise renewables, but it doesn't follow from the observation. If China wants to spend taxpayer money to give foreigners cheaper renewables (or cheaper anything), that's nice of them, but doesn't mean anyone should imitate them. If you have insufficient local workers for a task, and you are the US, you can always open the floodgates of (skilled) migration. Also you don't need to subsidize renewables. That's a sore game of trying to pick winners and introducing extra bureaucracy. Instead you can hit the same policy goals simpler by taxing fossil fuels (or carbon emissions). Distribute the proceeds amongst all voters, if you want it to be revenue neutral. With a tax, someone can react by just driving less (eg by moving closer to work) and benefiting from that choice. With a subsidy, you'd actively have to go and buy eg a subsidised electric car to benefit.
raincole 3y ago
You may say China is subsidizing their lithium industry. Actually, by exporting cheap lithium, they're effectively subsidizing all the other countries' economy, regardless of whether they like it or not.
- whatshisface 3y ago
  When standard oil used dumping tactics it was with the expectation that they would be able to clean up the market later, and they at least, were right.

by tw04 3y ago

panick21_ 3y ago

Lithium isn't 'renewable'. And just 'subsidizing' things isn't a replacement for actually playing your energy grid and energy production.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> Lithium isn't 'renewable' Neither are photons [1] nor individual gusts of wind. Lithium has a theoretically closeable cycle in batteries in a way fossil fuels do not. [1] If you want to be pedantic, the useful energy in a particular photon.
- gibolt 3y ago
  Exactly. Batteries are being recycled at scale today with 98-95% material recovery rates, depending on the company. We are still early in the development cycle of recycling technology, which means we'll be closer to 99.x% in a decade when the first large wave of EV batteries (from the last decade) could start getting close to End of Life.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    Batteries can be recycled at high rates of recovery, but most non-EV lithium batteries aren’t being recycled (basically because they aren’t sent to battery recycling centers given their small sizes). The anti-EV crowd then uses that statistic to deride EVS.
    - r00fus 3y ago
      But the value of nickel in say a NiMH battery makes it feasible to reclaim/“recycle”
      - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
        Most small batteries are sent to landfills, whether they have lithium or nickel. EV batteries and nickel car batteries are easier to recycle because there is an auto shop involved to collect and send the battery to a recycler. If you replace your NiMH 12V battery yourself (rather than having it done in the shop), you might be tempted to just throw it away in your garbage can also (even though you shouldn’t) simply because you have no idea how to get it to a recycler. You are unlikely to change the big battery in your Tesla on your own, so that isn’t a problem. Battery recycling is really just a logistics problem.
        JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > Battery recycling is really just a logistics problem It’s also one of scale. We don’t yet have enough EV batteries being retired to merit the recycling infrastructure. China is just reaching the point where it does.
        seanmcdirmid 3y ago
        Most EV batteries that age out of car use can be repurposed for home/solar, so this is true. But they will eventually need to be recycled.
        barkingcat 3y ago
        In Canada at least, when you buy a car / ev battery depending on the chemistry you get a coupon that you redeem for a significant amount of money when you take your old replaced battery back to the place you bought the new battery. The vendor will take back any brand/regardless of where you got the old battery from. There are people who "throw away" the coupon by not returning the old battery, but hey that's on them.
- panick21_ 3y ago
  My reaction was not pro-fossil fuel but rather that I think the use of 'renewable' as a statement of general positivity is idiotic. Sure there is a theoretical closable cycle in batteries, but guess what, the same can be said for fossil fuels. Just use energy to turn air and water back into fuel, boom cycle closed. What matters is not if something is 'renewable' but if its a strategically correct thing to do in regards to climate and energy security. Calling lithium 'renwable' is ridiculous. Its literally just a fixed resource on our plant like iron or copper or whatever.
  - unethical_ban 3y ago
    Besides brushing off the difference in difficulty between refreshing our petroleum stock on the planet and recycling lithium, I think the point of the original use of "renewables" is the push toward renewable energy for all possible things, such as transport, and the part lithium currently plays in that plan.
  - adrienthebo 3y ago
    > Sure there is a theoretical closable cycle in batteries, but guess what, the same can be said for fossil fuels. On geological time scales involving massive deposition of organic material. In contrast, lithium can be recovered from batteries with an industrial shredder and chemical processing. Fossil fuels are non-renewable in a trivial sense but are grossly different in a practical sense; treating them as equivalent is a borderline specious argument.
gibolt 3y ago
Oil is 100% non-renewable. A single, relatively efficient ICE vehicle will use over 45,000 lbs of gasoline over its lifetime (excluding all the oil to extract, refine, and transport that gasoline). The entire oil supply chain has no chance of ever becoming sustainable.
- iancmceachern 3y ago
  So is lithium Since I'm being down voted, I'm adding a reference: 5% of lithium batteries are currently recycled https://www.cas.org/resources/cas-insights/sustainability/lithium-ion-battery-recycling#:~:text=A%20Review%20of%20the%20Current,8%20million%20tons%20of%20waste https://www.cas.org/resources/cas-insights/sustainability/li.... So, not renewable
  - somewhat_drunk 3y ago
    I can't tell if you actually believe your logic is sound or you're just trolling.
    - iancmceachern 3y ago
      A bit of both. I'm trying to say that it's not so cut and dry. Making lithium batteries and thr mining of lithium is a messy business. It's not a panacea. We need to be honest and realistic about the costs of doing that business, and often we arent. 75% of all aluminum every smelted is still in use today: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_recycling#:~:text=Today%2C%20about%2075%20percent%20of,recycling%20are%20taken%20into%20account https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium_recycling#:~:text=.... We need to get lithium to that level before we make any more big, environmentally hazardous mines.
      - zaroth 3y ago
        A chokehold on new mining of a crucial ore for renewables sounds like a terrible overall idea. The lifecycle of the lithium that will come from this hypothetical mine is probably 20 years from now until the first time the material will be recycled. The highly profitable recycling logistics will have been fully worked out a decade before it’s needed for a new mine’s output.
tw04 3y ago
>Lithium isn't 'renewable'. Sure, if you want to be painfully pedantic. If you want to have a real conversation, lithium batteries are absolutely "renewable" in the sense they can be recycled, and some studies have shown that they actually perform better after being recycled. https://www.redwoodmaterials.com/ https://www.redwoodmaterials.com/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/recycled-lithium-ion-batteries-can-perform-better-than-new-ones/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/recycled-lithium-...

eru 3y ago

> ^^Spot on, which is why "subsidizing" renewables is vital to our country's future. That seems like a silly conclusion. It might still be vital for your country's future to subsidise renewables, but it doesn't follow from the observation. If China wants to spend taxpayer money to give foreigners cheaper renewables (or cheaper anything), that's nice of them, but doesn't mean anyone should imitate them. If you have insufficient local workers for a task, and you are the US, you can always open the floodgates of (skilled) migration. Also you don't need to subsidize renewables. That's a sore game of trying to pick winners and introducing extra bureaucracy. Instead you can hit the same policy goals simpler by taxing fossil fuels (or carbon emissions). Distribute the proceeds amongst all voters, if you want it to be revenue neutral. With a tax, someone can react by just driving less (eg by moving closer to work) and benefiting from that choice. With a subsidy, you'd actively have to go and buy eg a subsidised electric car to benefit.

raincole 3y ago

You may say China is subsidizing their lithium industry. Actually, by exporting cheap lithium, they're effectively subsidizing all the other countries' economy, regardless of whether they like it or not.

whatshisface 3y ago
When standard oil used dumping tactics it was with the expectation that they would be able to clean up the market later, and they at least, were right.