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“Modern slavery” is definitely an exaggeration but many are also not quite so free to quit. The H1B is a “dual intent” visa, meaning you can apply for permanen

“Modern slavery” is definitely an exaggeration but many are also not quite so free to quit. The H1B is a “dual intent” visa, meaning you can apply for permanent residency while you have it. But you must maintain your H1B the entire time, which can be a decade or more for folks from places like India. You can transfer an H1B but it’s not easy and if you quit your job you must line another one up in 60 days or say goodbye to the life you’ve built yourself in the US. Some employers are happy to take advantage of this.

znpy 3y ago
As long as they’re able to switch job and can leave the states (if they want to) I don’t think that the “slavery” word applies at all. And I’m saying this because there are places like Dubai where you very often get your passport taken on arrival, can’t leave the state and can’t really go work somewhere else. There is a lot more to say, but that qualifies as “modern slavery”.
- maccard 3y ago
  You're not really free to leave if you have to leave the country if you don't have a job lined up immediately.
  - chii 3y ago
    > if you have to leave the country i mean, this is meant to be a jobs visa. The fact that if you quit said job, you no longer have a reason to be given to stay, seems pretty normal. You are free to leave, it doesn't mean leaving is consequence free.
    - afavour 3y ago
      > this is meant to be a jobs visa It isn’t, it’s a dual intent visa. Job and path to permanent residency.
      - chii 3y ago
        > dual intent visa. the gov't doesn't intent this visa to be dual purpose. It is a job visa first and foremost, and the path to PR is at best a secondary concern for the gov't.
        afavour 3y ago
        If the government doesn’t intend for it to be a dual intent visa why did they make it a dual intent visa? This is all very much under their control!
        pandaman 3y ago
        It's made a dual intent because it's impossible to prove the lack of immigration intent for any long-term visa. It's not the only dual intent visa, almost every long-term non-immigrant visa is dual-intent for this reason. Even the TN, which is not proclaimed a dual intent is such de facto since the TN visitors don't have to prove the lack of immigrant intent either. The reason TN is such an exception is that it's not issued by the DoS and the concept of "dual intent" exists only as a legal fiction around the DoS procedures.
    - isaacremuant 3y ago
      You're free to try and leave Dubai without a passport, but it's not consequence free. I love when authortiarians use degrees of coercion to say "well technically YOU ARE free. But not free from consequences". It's such a disingenuous line of argumentation.
      - chii 3y ago
        that's a false equivalency. When your passport is confiscated, you get arrested at the airport. When you are tired of your H1B job, you can just leave. The fact that you lose your position in the queue for a potential PR is irrelevant.
  - diarrhea 3y ago
    If your passport is taken you are not free to leave. You physically cannot. On an H1B you are free to leave whenever, and under certain circumstances forced to. It’s a black and white difference. I don’t grasp why it’s hard to understand.
  - znpy 3y ago
    You can secure another job before leaving the old one.
    - maccard 3y ago
      That's like saying that I have a visa because I can just make sure my next job has a visa.
- afavour 3y ago
  Yeah I agree “slavery” doesn’t apply here, I’m just disputing how free to leave H1B workers are.
- amelius 3y ago
  Past: a man can own a slave. Now: the system can own a slave.
ajmurmann 3y ago
This is what creates more downward pressure on everyone's comp than just getting foreign workers. It artificially creates a group of workers for whom it's significantly harder and more risky to change jobs or simply quit when they are unsatisfied. I think everyone in tech would be better off if you wouldn't lose the H1B quickly if unemployed and if you wouldn't need to rely on an employer doing extra work to sponsor you. Make it two years instead of two months and make it so that the visa holder just can mail in proof of a paycheck. There is no real downside to this change for anybody in US society.
- isaacremuant 3y ago
  > There is no real downside to this change for anybody in US society. Well, the downside is for the companies exploiting migrants and those are the ones donating money to the people who make decisions. Lobbying is legally bribing them and the effect is that the politicians don't represent the people who vote for them but the corporations. And No, this is not a cynical take but a factual one.
  - ajmurmann 3y ago
    I'm not sure about this. Maybe the companies would be better off with a system that makes it much easier to hire from wherever they want as well.
- dccoolgai 3y ago
  Or like... if the actual _company_ that claims it "needs that worker from outside the U.S. so so so much" actually took the risk on instead of foisting it on the poor employee (and by extension, the entire labor market). My 2-step process for fixing the H1-B system. 1. H1Bs are _auctioned_ instead of raffled. You really need that H1B? Prove it - pay for it. 2. Sponsoring companies are responsible for cost of living for that employee for the entire duration of their H1B. That obligation can be transferred to another company. 3. (Bonus) After reaching a certain threshold of "taxes paid to the U.S." (maybe 300k or something) H1B holders _automatically_ get their green cards. No questions asked. If you can take that much of their money, they can be citizens.
zapdrive 3y ago
> which can be a decade or more for folks from places like India. The current estimate for Indians is 140 years [0]. https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/united-states-green-card-backlog-resident-visa-process-indians-in-us-2431720-2023-09-06 https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/united-states-green-ca...
swalberg 3y ago
> you can apply for permanent residency while you have it. Just to further complicate it, for many people _your employer_ has to apply for permanent residency on your behalf which is another 2 year ordeal and fair bit of money (that's just to get the green card priority date, not to mention waiting for the green card itself which varies by country). And that further indentures you since if you leave during that period you effectively abandon that application.

znpy 3y ago

As long as they’re able to switch job and can leave the states (if they want to) I don’t think that the “slavery” word applies at all. And I’m saying this because there are places like Dubai where you very often get your passport taken on arrival, can’t leave the state and can’t really go work somewhere else. There is a lot more to say, but that qualifies as “modern slavery”.

maccard 3y ago
You're not really free to leave if you have to leave the country if you don't have a job lined up immediately.
- chii 3y ago
  > if you have to leave the country i mean, this is meant to be a jobs visa. The fact that if you quit said job, you no longer have a reason to be given to stay, seems pretty normal. You are free to leave, it doesn't mean leaving is consequence free.
  - afavour 3y ago
    > this is meant to be a jobs visa It isn’t, it’s a dual intent visa. Job and path to permanent residency.
    - chii 3y ago
      > dual intent visa. the gov't doesn't intent this visa to be dual purpose. It is a job visa first and foremost, and the path to PR is at best a secondary concern for the gov't.
      - afavour 3y ago
        If the government doesn’t intend for it to be a dual intent visa why did they make it a dual intent visa? This is all very much under their control!
        pandaman 3y ago
        It's made a dual intent because it's impossible to prove the lack of immigration intent for any long-term visa. It's not the only dual intent visa, almost every long-term non-immigrant visa is dual-intent for this reason. Even the TN, which is not proclaimed a dual intent is such de facto since the TN visitors don't have to prove the lack of immigrant intent either. The reason TN is such an exception is that it's not issued by the DoS and the concept of "dual intent" exists only as a legal fiction around the DoS procedures.
  - isaacremuant 3y ago
    You're free to try and leave Dubai without a passport, but it's not consequence free. I love when authortiarians use degrees of coercion to say "well technically YOU ARE free. But not free from consequences". It's such a disingenuous line of argumentation.
    - chii 3y ago
      that's a false equivalency. When your passport is confiscated, you get arrested at the airport. When you are tired of your H1B job, you can just leave. The fact that you lose your position in the queue for a potential PR is irrelevant.
- diarrhea 3y ago
  If your passport is taken you are not free to leave. You physically cannot. On an H1B you are free to leave whenever, and under certain circumstances forced to. It’s a black and white difference. I don’t grasp why it’s hard to understand.
- znpy 3y ago
  You can secure another job before leaving the old one.
  - maccard 3y ago
    That's like saying that I have a visa because I can just make sure my next job has a visa.
afavour 3y ago
Yeah I agree “slavery” doesn’t apply here, I’m just disputing how free to leave H1B workers are.
amelius 3y ago
Past: a man can own a slave. Now: the system can own a slave.

ajmurmann 3y ago

This is what creates more downward pressure on everyone's comp than just getting foreign workers. It artificially creates a group of workers for whom it's significantly harder and more risky to change jobs or simply quit when they are unsatisfied. I think everyone in tech would be better off if you wouldn't lose the H1B quickly if unemployed and if you wouldn't need to rely on an employer doing extra work to sponsor you. Make it two years instead of two months and make it so that the visa holder just can mail in proof of a paycheck. There is no real downside to this change for anybody in US society.

isaacremuant 3y ago
> There is no real downside to this change for anybody in US society. Well, the downside is for the companies exploiting migrants and those are the ones donating money to the people who make decisions. Lobbying is legally bribing them and the effect is that the politicians don't represent the people who vote for them but the corporations. And No, this is not a cynical take but a factual one.
- ajmurmann 3y ago
  I'm not sure about this. Maybe the companies would be better off with a system that makes it much easier to hire from wherever they want as well.
dccoolgai 3y ago
Or like... if the actual _company_ that claims it "needs that worker from outside the U.S. so so so much" actually took the risk on instead of foisting it on the poor employee (and by extension, the entire labor market). My 2-step process for fixing the H1-B system. 1. H1Bs are _auctioned_ instead of raffled. You really need that H1B? Prove it - pay for it. 2. Sponsoring companies are responsible for cost of living for that employee for the entire duration of their H1B. That obligation can be transferred to another company. 3. (Bonus) After reaching a certain threshold of "taxes paid to the U.S." (maybe 300k or something) H1B holders _automatically_ get their green cards. No questions asked. If you can take that much of their money, they can be citizens.

zapdrive 3y ago

> which can be a decade or more for folks from places like India. The current estimate for Indians is 140 years [0]. https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/united-states-green-card-backlog-resident-visa-process-indians-in-us-2431720-2023-09-06 https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/united-states-green-ca...

swalberg 3y ago

> you can apply for permanent residency while you have it. Just to further complicate it, for many people _your employer_ has to apply for permanent residency on your behalf which is another 2 year ordeal and fair bit of money (that's just to get the green card priority date, not to mention waiting for the green card itself which varies by country). And that further indentures you since if you leave during that period you effectively abandon that application.