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Of all the horrible things go on with privacy these days, this is the one I hate the most. I’m a “car guy”, but not the sort that obsesses over old cars (altho

Of all the horrible things go on with privacy these days, this is the one I hate the most. I’m a “car guy”, but not the sort that obsesses over old cars (although I do love 60s and 80s cars). I like new tech, I like the advances in engineering we’ve made in new vehicles, I like EVs even. Nonetheless I’ve been in the market for a new car for months and haven’t bought because it’s hard to find any cars that meet my requirements (after all most companies primarily make trucks and shitty crossovers, not even cars). The two things that consistently hold me back are either things like this (crazy telemetry / touchscreens everywhere / half-ass safety tech) or insane dealer markups. I’ve pretty much figured out the new Toyota GR Corolla is the perfect car for my needs, but you can’t find them anywhere without a $25K+ dealer markup and many dealers won’t sell them to out of state residents. It’s truly a crazy time in the new car markets and the used market isn’t really any better.

lunias 3y ago
I currently own a 2012 VW GTI that I bought new 11 years ago. It has 123k miles and lots of modifications. I recently compiled a short list of both EVs and ICE vehicles to compare against it; the Toyota GR Corolla was on my list: 2023 Toyota GR Corolla AWD 3285 LBS / 300 HP = 10.9 LBS / HP RANGE: 25 mpg * 13.2 gallons = 330 mi PRICE: 44k -------------------------------------------------- 2012 VW MK6 GTI (K04) FWD 3000 LBS / 330 WHP = 9.1 LBS / WHP RANGE: 23 mpg * 14.5 gallons = 333 mi PRICE: < 30k (to buy a used GTI and install the same mods including labor) -------------------------------------------------- I think the GR Corolla is great, but even after 11 years it's sadly not really a convincing upgrade for me. The GR Corolla is less powerful (in both torque and horsepower), it has one less cylinder and less displacement, it weighs more, it gets essentially the same mileage and has the same range, and it costs much more. The Corolla does have AWD though. Here's the common "upgrade" for me: 2023 VW Golf R AWD 3400 LBS / 315 HP = 10.8 LBS / HP RANGE: 28 mpg * 14.5 gallons = 406 mi PRICE: 47k -------------------------------------------------- Again, the Golf R is also great, but it's also less powerful and weighs more. It gets slightly better mileage than my current car, but costs even more than the GR Corolla. Finding something new that is "better" out of the box than my 11 year old GTI would cost me at least 56k (Toyota GR Supra RWD) or if I want AWD then it's more like 66k (Audi RS3 AWD). If I want something electric and "better" then it's at least 89k (Tesla Model S). These prices are really high to begin with; when you add in dealer markups they become insane propositions. For your money you'll also have to contend with with touch screens, capacitive buttons, and a bunch of other tech that you don't want or need. The market seems to be in a pretty sad state for car guys. Unless something changes I'll be rebuilding my engine with forged internals and continuing to drive my GTI.
- tristor 3y ago
  FWIW, you’ve arrived at some of the same conclusions that I have. The only cars really in the running for me now are the GR Corolla, Golf R, RS3, and at least temporarily I’m probably going to start with a Mazda3 Turbo since it’s AWD now.
psyclobe 3y ago
Find a private broker to locate and acquire a car for you
- tristor 3y ago
  And how does that result in a more reasonable cost profile than paying an insane dealer markup that’s half the MSRP of the car? A Corolla shouldn’t cost $70k.
cpursley 3y ago
The touchscreens are really a dealbreaker on new cars. They’re not just prone to quick obsolescence, they’re dangerous.
- tristor 3y ago
  I hate them so much. Otherwise great cars are completely ruined by touchscreens. What was wrong with tactile knobs you could operate one handed without looking? You’re driving for fuck’s sake. It’s why things like the GR Corolla are nearly miraculous in 2023, it even comes stick shift only.
  - stanski 3y ago
    I assume it's a cost thing. Slapping a tablet everywhere and letting the code monkeys figure it out is probably cheaper than making various knobs and buttons. I dread the day I have to get a new car. Even Subaru, who are usually behind the curve, have gone all touch screen.
    - Digory 3y ago
      The feds have mandated a screen (for backup cameras). Then the makers try to minimize costs by having the screen do everything. I’d like to say I’d pay more for real buttons, but I’d never buy a new car.
      - ghaff 3y ago
        It's probably true that once you (more or less) need a screen for a decent backup camera and most people like a screen for at least GPS, it must be pretty tempting to at least think about what physical buttons can reasonably be eliminated given that the touchscreen is a given. And I do think a lot of designs go too far.
        dylan604 3y ago
        >and most people like a screen for at least GPS personal anecdotes, but the vast majority of me being a passenger to someone else's driving, they all used their mobile device for GPS. even the couple of cars i owned that had a nav system, the GPS came from the mobile device. it required their app to be installed to input the destination, making the internal unit just a second screen for your mobile.
devilbunny 3y ago
I don't know about their markups, but Mazda has been pulling out touchscreens and putting back buttons for audio and climate control purposes. Not sure how far it's made it through their models.
- ghaff 3y ago
  A 2022 Honda Passport has physical buttons for pretty much everything. The only thing I use the touchscreen for is as a display for maps from CarPlay (and the backup camera). So reliance on the touchscreen for things like environmental controls isn't universal even in new cars.
  - foxyv 3y ago
    I love Honda interiors. The base models are almost always the best with big unique knobs and buttons. However, I'm really disappointed on their electrification. I would speculate that their misguided attempt to push Hydrogen is going to kill the Japanese companies if they don't invest in BEVs soon. I would seriously consider a 300 mile range, electrified Honda Fit using Chevy's Ultium platform. But it seems car companies are too focused on SUVs and Crossovers to pad their nests. Make number go up strikes again!
    - ghaff 3y ago
      I had a very efficient, fun, and great at squeezing into city parking spots stickshift Honda del Sol as a second car for about 20 years. Alas, as it got old and I stopped commuting, it was silly to pay for keeping a second car around for the <2,000 miles per year I was putting on it. But Fits are cute little cars. An EV version of something like that would make me as least think of using something like that for most of my local driving.
    - klooney 3y ago
      Isn't that just a Bolt?
      - foxyv 3y ago
ranger_danger 3y ago
FWIW Mazda's current lineup allows you to turn off telemetry while still allowing emergency calls, and they still make non-touchscreen models.
- wahnfrieden 3y ago
  Including govt wiretapping of those sensors?
  - jancsika 3y ago
    And don't forget thwarting timing attacks from the bazillion cameras aimed at roadways. Plus satellites. If the car cannot defend against such basic attacks then you're best walking alone under cover of the trees, whispering your messages to distant dandelions.
nilespotter 3y ago
I have a crossover, it's nice
yafbum 3y ago
Kia driver here. There is a screen in my car, but also actual knobs and steering wheel controls for everything I might need (audio controls, climate controls) and when I use the screen to project my phone, almost all functions there can be activated through voice control.
spacemadness 3y ago
These markups are insane, and I wonder if anyone actually gets anywhere near paying them. I don’t really see the point since for those markups you can just get a nicer car. Unless car collectors really are that out of touch and flush with cash.
- seattle_spring 3y ago
  Unfortunately lots of people are happy to pay the markups. Some subreddits, including /r/rav4prime , will ban you for speaking negatively about dealer markups or those who pay them. Here's their hilariously condescendingly worded rule 4: > No demonstrations of economic illiteracy. No negativity regarding markups. You are encouraged to post about current prices and markups and your dealership experiences, but please DO NOT express moral value judgments about markups or their absence (except those involving bait-and-switch).
  - Workaccount2 3y ago
    It's a fair point though. The markups are a function of demand and are totally normal and expected market behavior. People who complain about it are almost exclusively people who don't understand how markets work. It's tiring listening to uneducated people constantly coming through and complaining. If dealers weren't marking up the price, there would be no car at all available for sale. People mistakenly think that if there was no markup, they could buy the car at MSRP. No. There would be no supply at all. They would be sold out and you'd be on a waiting list at best. This is the same dynamic as GPUs of 2021 and perpetually with concert tickets (venues will always have fewer seats than the number of fans in the area).
    - EricE 3y ago
      As dealer inventory starts to pile up, car prices are finally coming down. Anyone paying a markup in today's market just isn't doing their homework. I've yet to pay MSRP or beyond for a car and I don't intend to start now!
    - abecedarius 3y ago
brandonagr2 3y ago
If you want best in class safety tech and no dealer markups, you can just order a Tesla online
- r2_pilot 3y ago
  Not to mention the occasional automated drive into stationary objects. Guess that's partly why they have the "best in class safety tech".
  - cortesoft 3y ago
    You don’t have to enable self driving.
    - r2_pilot 3y ago
      As much as they charge for it, I would want to use it if I had a Tesla. But since I have severe trust issues with Tesla, I would never* buy an electric car from them anyway. * at least for the next 5 years, probably longer. I'm just glad I live far away from the places self-driving cars are common, for now.
- hoot 3y ago
  I’m not an Elon hater but Tesla is the worst offender on Mozillas privacy study.
  - mytydev 3y ago
    The report specifically says Tesla is not the worst btw
    - redwasp 3y ago
      Surprising, since Mozilla's article(https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/privacynotincluded/articles/its-official-cars-are-the-worst-product-category-we-have-ever-reviewed-for-privacy/ https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/privacynotincluded/article...) does place them dead last, right behind Nissan. Granted, it'll be hard not to buy a car on that list!
klaussilveira 3y ago
Try Mazda. No touchscreens, no account shenanigans. Make sure you decline the app in the dealership, though.
hedora 3y ago
I was planning to get a Nissan Leaf (worst privacy among all manufacturers in the round up) but luckily stumbled on a BMW i3 instead. They have the best telemetry story by far, and it has a well-implemented jog wheel instead of a touch screen. Also, it has a carbon-fiber frame. It looks like a tall econobox, but handles extremely well. The i3 has been discontinued and the new models have a touch screen in addition to the jog wheel, so it's possible the jog wheel on those is poorly implemented, and not enough to actually use the car. I haven't test driven one of the newer models, but I'd carefully check the computer UI before purchasing one. Anyway, I'm hoping BMW succeeds with their contrarian approach of having physical controls, and not treating their customers terribly, and that the other manufacturers follow their lead.
- thfuran 3y ago
  Didn't bmw turn seat heaters into a subscription service? I'm not sure avoiding treating customers terribly is really their thing.
dataminded 3y ago
This is me. I bought two new cars every 2 years like clockwork. We replaced one car because we NEEDED a larger family car and have gone without the 2nd for over a year. It feels impossibly hard to buy a great car today.
bonestamp2 3y ago
The touchscreen is great for some things of course, but most regular people that comment seem to agree that tactile controls for radio and HVAC are their preference. The only explanation for why manufacturers are dropping the tactile controls is for cost savings/higher profits. Because it sure doesn't seem like most people want those items on the screen.
tim333 3y ago
Theres something to be said for old bangers. I had a 31 year old mx5 and now a 13 year old E class. They don't have the touch screen sillyness and tend to be much cheaper to run if you include depreciation. You have to get stuff fixed about once a year with those.

lunias 3y ago

I currently own a 2012 VW GTI that I bought new 11 years ago. It has 123k miles and lots of modifications. I recently compiled a short list of both EVs and ICE vehicles to compare against it; the Toyota GR Corolla was on my list: 2023 Toyota GR Corolla AWD 3285 LBS / 300 HP = 10.9 LBS / HP RANGE: 25 mpg * 13.2 gallons = 330 mi PRICE: 44k -------------------------------------------------- 2012 VW MK6 GTI (K04) FWD 3000 LBS / 330 WHP = 9.1 LBS / WHP RANGE: 23 mpg * 14.5 gallons = 333 mi PRICE: < 30k (to buy a used GTI and install the same mods including labor) -------------------------------------------------- I think the GR Corolla is great, but even after 11 years it's sadly not really a convincing upgrade for me. The GR Corolla is less powerful (in both torque and horsepower), it has one less cylinder and less displacement, it weighs more, it gets essentially the same mileage and has the same range, and it costs much more. The Corolla does have AWD though. Here's the common "upgrade" for me: 2023 VW Golf R AWD 3400 LBS / 315 HP = 10.8 LBS / HP RANGE: 28 mpg * 14.5 gallons = 406 mi PRICE: 47k -------------------------------------------------- Again, the Golf R is also great, but it's also less powerful and weighs more. It gets slightly better mileage than my current car, but costs even more than the GR Corolla. Finding something new that is "better" out of the box than my 11 year old GTI would cost me at least 56k (Toyota GR Supra RWD) or if I want AWD then it's more like 66k (Audi RS3 AWD). If I want something electric and "better" then it's at least 89k (Tesla Model S). These prices are really high to begin with; when you add in dealer markups they become insane propositions. For your money you'll also have to contend with with touch screens, capacitive buttons, and a bunch of other tech that you don't want or need. The market seems to be in a pretty sad state for car guys. Unless something changes I'll be rebuilding my engine with forged internals and continuing to drive my GTI.

tristor 3y ago
FWIW, you’ve arrived at some of the same conclusions that I have. The only cars really in the running for me now are the GR Corolla, Golf R, RS3, and at least temporarily I’m probably going to start with a Mazda3 Turbo since it’s AWD now.

psyclobe 3y ago

Find a private broker to locate and acquire a car for you

tristor 3y ago
And how does that result in a more reasonable cost profile than paying an insane dealer markup that’s half the MSRP of the car? A Corolla shouldn’t cost $70k.

cpursley 3y ago

The touchscreens are really a dealbreaker on new cars. They’re not just prone to quick obsolescence, they’re dangerous.

tristor 3y ago
I hate them so much. Otherwise great cars are completely ruined by touchscreens. What was wrong with tactile knobs you could operate one handed without looking? You’re driving for fuck’s sake. It’s why things like the GR Corolla are nearly miraculous in 2023, it even comes stick shift only.
- stanski 3y ago
  I assume it's a cost thing. Slapping a tablet everywhere and letting the code monkeys figure it out is probably cheaper than making various knobs and buttons. I dread the day I have to get a new car. Even Subaru, who are usually behind the curve, have gone all touch screen.
  - Digory 3y ago
    The feds have mandated a screen (for backup cameras). Then the makers try to minimize costs by having the screen do everything. I’d like to say I’d pay more for real buttons, but I’d never buy a new car.
    - ghaff 3y ago
      It's probably true that once you (more or less) need a screen for a decent backup camera and most people like a screen for at least GPS, it must be pretty tempting to at least think about what physical buttons can reasonably be eliminated given that the touchscreen is a given. And I do think a lot of designs go too far.
      - dylan604 3y ago
        >and most people like a screen for at least GPS personal anecdotes, but the vast majority of me being a passenger to someone else's driving, they all used their mobile device for GPS. even the couple of cars i owned that had a nav system, the GPS came from the mobile device. it required their app to be installed to input the destination, making the internal unit just a second screen for your mobile.

devilbunny 3y ago

I don't know about their markups, but Mazda has been pulling out touchscreens and putting back buttons for audio and climate control purposes. Not sure how far it's made it through their models.

ghaff 3y ago
A 2022 Honda Passport has physical buttons for pretty much everything. The only thing I use the touchscreen for is as a display for maps from CarPlay (and the backup camera). So reliance on the touchscreen for things like environmental controls isn't universal even in new cars.
- foxyv 3y ago
  I love Honda interiors. The base models are almost always the best with big unique knobs and buttons. However, I'm really disappointed on their electrification. I would speculate that their misguided attempt to push Hydrogen is going to kill the Japanese companies if they don't invest in BEVs soon. I would seriously consider a 300 mile range, electrified Honda Fit using Chevy's Ultium platform. But it seems car companies are too focused on SUVs and Crossovers to pad their nests. Make number go up strikes again!
  - ghaff 3y ago
    I had a very efficient, fun, and great at squeezing into city parking spots stickshift Honda del Sol as a second car for about 20 years. Alas, as it got old and I stopped commuting, it was silly to pay for keeping a second car around for the <2,000 miles per year I was putting on it. But Fits are cute little cars. An EV version of something like that would make me as least think of using something like that for most of my local driving.
  - klooney 3y ago
    Isn't that just a Bolt?
    - foxyv 3y ago

ranger_danger 3y ago

FWIW Mazda's current lineup allows you to turn off telemetry while still allowing emergency calls, and they still make non-touchscreen models.

wahnfrieden 3y ago
Including govt wiretapping of those sensors?
- jancsika 3y ago
  And don't forget thwarting timing attacks from the bazillion cameras aimed at roadways. Plus satellites. If the car cannot defend against such basic attacks then you're best walking alone under cover of the trees, whispering your messages to distant dandelions.

nilespotter 3y ago

I have a crossover, it's nice

yafbum 3y ago

Kia driver here. There is a screen in my car, but also actual knobs and steering wheel controls for everything I might need (audio controls, climate controls) and when I use the screen to project my phone, almost all functions there can be activated through voice control.

spacemadness 3y ago

These markups are insane, and I wonder if anyone actually gets anywhere near paying them. I don’t really see the point since for those markups you can just get a nicer car. Unless car collectors really are that out of touch and flush with cash.

seattle_spring 3y ago
Unfortunately lots of people are happy to pay the markups. Some subreddits, including /r/rav4prime , will ban you for speaking negatively about dealer markups or those who pay them. Here's their hilariously condescendingly worded rule 4: > No demonstrations of economic illiteracy. No negativity regarding markups. You are encouraged to post about current prices and markups and your dealership experiences, but please DO NOT express moral value judgments about markups or their absence (except those involving bait-and-switch).
- Workaccount2 3y ago
  It's a fair point though. The markups are a function of demand and are totally normal and expected market behavior. People who complain about it are almost exclusively people who don't understand how markets work. It's tiring listening to uneducated people constantly coming through and complaining. If dealers weren't marking up the price, there would be no car at all available for sale. People mistakenly think that if there was no markup, they could buy the car at MSRP. No. There would be no supply at all. They would be sold out and you'd be on a waiting list at best. This is the same dynamic as GPUs of 2021 and perpetually with concert tickets (venues will always have fewer seats than the number of fans in the area).
  - EricE 3y ago
    As dealer inventory starts to pile up, car prices are finally coming down. Anyone paying a markup in today's market just isn't doing their homework. I've yet to pay MSRP or beyond for a car and I don't intend to start now!
  - abecedarius 3y ago

brandonagr2 3y ago

If you want best in class safety tech and no dealer markups, you can just order a Tesla online

r2_pilot 3y ago
Not to mention the occasional automated drive into stationary objects. Guess that's partly why they have the "best in class safety tech".
- cortesoft 3y ago
  You don’t have to enable self driving.
  - r2_pilot 3y ago
    As much as they charge for it, I would want to use it if I had a Tesla. But since I have severe trust issues with Tesla, I would never* buy an electric car from them anyway. * at least for the next 5 years, probably longer. I'm just glad I live far away from the places self-driving cars are common, for now.
hoot 3y ago
I’m not an Elon hater but Tesla is the worst offender on Mozillas privacy study.
- mytydev 3y ago
  The report specifically says Tesla is not the worst btw
  - redwasp 3y ago
    Surprising, since Mozilla's article(https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/privacynotincluded/articles/its-official-cars-are-the-worst-product-category-we-have-ever-reviewed-for-privacy/ https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/privacynotincluded/article...) does place them dead last, right behind Nissan. Granted, it'll be hard not to buy a car on that list!

klaussilveira 3y ago

Try Mazda. No touchscreens, no account shenanigans. Make sure you decline the app in the dealership, though.

hedora 3y ago

I was planning to get a Nissan Leaf (worst privacy among all manufacturers in the round up) but luckily stumbled on a BMW i3 instead. They have the best telemetry story by far, and it has a well-implemented jog wheel instead of a touch screen. Also, it has a carbon-fiber frame. It looks like a tall econobox, but handles extremely well. The i3 has been discontinued and the new models have a touch screen in addition to the jog wheel, so it's possible the jog wheel on those is poorly implemented, and not enough to actually use the car. I haven't test driven one of the newer models, but I'd carefully check the computer UI before purchasing one. Anyway, I'm hoping BMW succeeds with their contrarian approach of having physical controls, and not treating their customers terribly, and that the other manufacturers follow their lead.

thfuran 3y ago
Didn't bmw turn seat heaters into a subscription service? I'm not sure avoiding treating customers terribly is really their thing.

dataminded 3y ago

This is me. I bought two new cars every 2 years like clockwork. We replaced one car because we NEEDED a larger family car and have gone without the 2nd for over a year. It feels impossibly hard to buy a great car today.

bonestamp2 3y ago

The touchscreen is great for some things of course, but most regular people that comment seem to agree that tactile controls for radio and HVAC are their preference. The only explanation for why manufacturers are dropping the tactile controls is for cost savings/higher profits. Because it sure doesn't seem like most people want those items on the screen.

tim333 3y ago

Theres something to be said for old bangers. I had a 31 year old mx5 and now a 13 year old E class. They don't have the touch screen sillyness and tend to be much cheaper to run if you include depreciation. You have to get stuff fixed about once a year with those.