5 ms·

It could work. Just require manufacturers to recycle 1.1lbs of post consumer waste for every 1lb they ship. Require the recycled waste to be the same composit

by hedora 3y ago

It could work. Just require manufacturers to recycle 1.1lbs of post consumer waste for every 1lb they ship. Require the recycled waste to be the same composition as the shipped material. Also, only require this for plastic. All of a sudden, the vast majority of products would switch to easily recycled plastic or away from plastic entirely.

seanmcdirmid 3y ago
The problem is what would they switch to? In Japan, they have disposable bamboo forks and spoons, at least I hope it’s bamboo and not wood.
- thaumasiotes 3y ago
  I have heard a Japanese person comment on the large quantity of disposable "wood" stuff in Japan, but I have no idea whether they were including bamboo as "wood".
  - burnte 3y ago
    It is considered wood and used as such.
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      Bamboo is a bit more environmental than wood (it grows easier and faster). Only 10% of disposable chopsticks in Japan are made of bamboo rather than wood, however. Not sure about forks and knives that were plastic before.
      - fmajid 3y ago
        Some bamboos grow a meter a day. It's also a good way to bioremediate nitrogen pollution, they should really do that in places like The Netherlands where excess nitrogen from livestock has become an issue, but I don't know if the weather is compatible with bamboo. Some grasses that can be used for paper-making could also be an option.
      - burnte 3y ago
        Yeah, those are all great benefits. It grows SO fast and with model lamination/bonding it makes a great material.
- 13of40 3y ago
  One company I used to work for went through a saga of finding the best compostable material for disposable cutlery. I think the first attempt was some black plastic thing that melted if you used it to cut an orange. Next was pressed bamboo, which worked but it tasted like wood. Next was a starch based thing that would melt in a cup of tea. I think they finally ended up with some kind of hard brown plastic, but by that time I just had a titanium spork from REI. So the answer is just bring your own fork and rinse it off when you're done.
  - giantg2 3y ago
    Yep, I just have my own utensils at work. Pack my food in a glass container (lid is plastic but reusable).
  - Tao3300 3y ago
    When I was a kid we used to get ice cream that came with a flat piece of wood to use as a spoon. It was fine.
    - Filligree 3y ago
      That's still the standard around here. (Ireland) Is it plastic in your parts? Plastic spoons always feel way too flimsy to me.
      - Tao3300 3y ago
        I don't know, they don't give them to me anymore :(
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    > So the answer is just bring your own fork and rinse it off when you're done. I mean sure, but this was an international long haul flight. I can actually imagine a 100 people trying to wash their silverware in airport lavatories on a 767 after dinner service.
    - 3y ago
- resolutebat 3y ago
  Bamboo is used too, but AFAIK well over half of disposable chopsticks are made from softwood (birch, aspen, etc).
- walleeee 3y ago
  We switch away from disposable things in general
RC_ITR 3y ago
The problem is that our main problem by a mile is that we burn hydrocarbons to do things like shipping. Switch to any material that’s even incrementally heavier/more energy intensive to make and you’re creating more CO2 which almost certainly offsets the environmental and quality of life benefits you generate
- colordrops 3y ago
  The may be more expensive to ship but it's unlikely that they will be more expensive to manufacture in the long term. If they can be used 100x times a cardboard box, the cost of manufacturing cardboard would be much more. Also, as we move to renewables, the CO2 equation will move further in reusable materials' favor.
- slaymaker1907 3y ago
  Yeah, I’d rather we make more reusable stuff instead. For example, I love the minimal packaging on Commander decks for MTG because the boxes they come in are actually really great for a deck box as well unlike the tiny ones they include with their normal packaging. Even if you don’t use them for that, they’re fairly sturdy and a nice size for organizing stuff.
- hedora 3y ago
  Shipping produces a tiny fraction of greenhouse emissions.
tiffanyg 3y ago
Sure. Considering the US, though, just imagine the backlash. To be fair, some states have passed legislation regarding single-use plastics, and it's not as though measures in the EU didn't provoke whinging and pushback ... China, and Japan, among others, are somewhere between the US and EU when it comes to regs at least. But, these are difficult measures to "sell" - the effects of this kind of legislation are immediate, impacting consumers, companies, etc. ... and "hit pocketbooks", in particular. The benefits are nebulous*, relate to some "ill-defined future", and don't seem to have tangible impacts today (except possibly negative) on ability to make a living / continue living. Unfortunately, these factors in our current system(s) underlie a rigidity (resistance to changes) that bodes extremely poorly, IMO, for adaptations required to face the absolute sh1tstorm of challenges converging on societies like the water from "Lake Conemaugh" after the "South Fork Dam" break (i.e., when what was formerly protective focused problems avoided in former years, delivering decades worth of suffering in an ~hour-sized package).** This isn't intended to suggest pessimism or apathy, but, rather, how much energy - voting, getting involved in politics, etc. - will be required from the (generally younger) citizens of many countries to break through the momentum of "legacy systems" to create some of the changes necessary. The current indications aren't great when orange clown*** is still dominating the news many days... * To the vast majority of sheltered "modern people" - who don't fish, say, or look at rain droplets with magnification, or have other occasions for encountering the really massive problem that's been developing for decades now ** https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnstown_Flood https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnstown_Flood *** And a whole circus and set of sideshows built around other grifters Edit: one other point - my current favored "solution" is simply burning the plastic (most can be IIRC) in cement kilns and the like. Unsurprisingly, I think, to anyone with some understanding of "polymer chemistry", plastic isn't so "inert" when exposed to the harsh physical environment over the course of decades. In some sense, worse, one of the properties that makes plastic so useful, also means that most biological systems don't have enzymatic / other machinery for dealing with / processing plastic. There has been more burning of plastic, in recent years - it's not "great", but, it's actually still about the least harmful option for waste streams that can't be (practically) reused, recycled, etc. ... (yet). There have been some reasonably good articles on plastics recycling in some of the more mainstream sources that discuss burning (esp. for cement production / in "cement kilns")... I'd provide but kinda rushed (sorry - I need to stop writing long-ish comments when time is tighter), but, web searches should likely turn those up easily enough.
techbro92 3y ago
I don’t think it can work. When I interned at a consumer product manufacturer they used 1/3rd recycled and 2/3rds new plastic. Recycled plastic is too low quality to pass QA. And they could only used recycled bottles.
- hakfoo 3y ago
  I wonder if the QA standards are too high for throwaway goods. Is a soda bottle a high-precision moulding that needs super-precise tolerances? And if so, are there ways to redesign this to reduce the constraints?
  - 542458 3y ago
    Soda bottles are injection-blowmolded, which requires fairly predictable elongation under heat and pressure. I do know using 100% post consumer plastic would affect elongation, but I don’t know how significant the effect is or how hard it would be to compensate for. Fwiw they do need fairly tight tolerances otherwise the cap won’t seal and the product will leak or spoil.
    - wuming2 3y ago
      Would it help to increase thickness? More weight and material, increased cost, to factor in the reduced trail of pollution every piece of single use plastic has?
      - ygra 3y ago
        This probably leads you to reusable bottles, which are just cleaned and refilled again.
        wuming2 3y ago
        Would be the next logical step. But without strong incentives, either intentional rationing of row materials or the equivalent sharp increase of their cost, I don’t see any indication producers and retailers would adopt it.

by hedora 3y ago

seanmcdirmid 3y ago

The problem is what would they switch to? In Japan, they have disposable bamboo forks and spoons, at least I hope it’s bamboo and not wood.

thaumasiotes 3y ago
I have heard a Japanese person comment on the large quantity of disposable "wood" stuff in Japan, but I have no idea whether they were including bamboo as "wood".
- burnte 3y ago
  It is considered wood and used as such.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    Bamboo is a bit more environmental than wood (it grows easier and faster). Only 10% of disposable chopsticks in Japan are made of bamboo rather than wood, however. Not sure about forks and knives that were plastic before.
    - fmajid 3y ago
      Some bamboos grow a meter a day. It's also a good way to bioremediate nitrogen pollution, they should really do that in places like The Netherlands where excess nitrogen from livestock has become an issue, but I don't know if the weather is compatible with bamboo. Some grasses that can be used for paper-making could also be an option.
    - burnte 3y ago
      Yeah, those are all great benefits. It grows SO fast and with model lamination/bonding it makes a great material.
13of40 3y ago
One company I used to work for went through a saga of finding the best compostable material for disposable cutlery. I think the first attempt was some black plastic thing that melted if you used it to cut an orange. Next was pressed bamboo, which worked but it tasted like wood. Next was a starch based thing that would melt in a cup of tea. I think they finally ended up with some kind of hard brown plastic, but by that time I just had a titanium spork from REI. So the answer is just bring your own fork and rinse it off when you're done.
- giantg2 3y ago
  Yep, I just have my own utensils at work. Pack my food in a glass container (lid is plastic but reusable).
- Tao3300 3y ago
  When I was a kid we used to get ice cream that came with a flat piece of wood to use as a spoon. It was fine.
  - Filligree 3y ago
    That's still the standard around here. (Ireland) Is it plastic in your parts? Plastic spoons always feel way too flimsy to me.
    - Tao3300 3y ago
      I don't know, they don't give them to me anymore :(
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  > So the answer is just bring your own fork and rinse it off when you're done. I mean sure, but this was an international long haul flight. I can actually imagine a 100 people trying to wash their silverware in airport lavatories on a 767 after dinner service.
  - 3y ago
resolutebat 3y ago
Bamboo is used too, but AFAIK well over half of disposable chopsticks are made from softwood (birch, aspen, etc).
walleeee 3y ago
We switch away from disposable things in general

RC_ITR 3y ago

The problem is that our main problem by a mile is that we burn hydrocarbons to do things like shipping. Switch to any material that’s even incrementally heavier/more energy intensive to make and you’re creating more CO2 which almost certainly offsets the environmental and quality of life benefits you generate

colordrops 3y ago
The may be more expensive to ship but it's unlikely that they will be more expensive to manufacture in the long term. If they can be used 100x times a cardboard box, the cost of manufacturing cardboard would be much more. Also, as we move to renewables, the CO2 equation will move further in reusable materials' favor.
slaymaker1907 3y ago
Yeah, I’d rather we make more reusable stuff instead. For example, I love the minimal packaging on Commander decks for MTG because the boxes they come in are actually really great for a deck box as well unlike the tiny ones they include with their normal packaging. Even if you don’t use them for that, they’re fairly sturdy and a nice size for organizing stuff.
hedora 3y ago
Shipping produces a tiny fraction of greenhouse emissions.

tiffanyg 3y ago

Sure. Considering the US, though, just imagine the backlash. To be fair, some states have passed legislation regarding single-use plastics, and it's not as though measures in the EU didn't provoke whinging and pushback ... China, and Japan, among others, are somewhere between the US and EU when it comes to regs at least. But, these are difficult measures to "sell" - the effects of this kind of legislation are immediate, impacting consumers, companies, etc. ... and "hit pocketbooks", in particular. The benefits are nebulous*, relate to some "ill-defined future", and don't seem to have tangible impacts today (except possibly negative) on ability to make a living / continue living. Unfortunately, these factors in our current system(s) underlie a rigidity (resistance to changes) that bodes extremely poorly, IMO, for adaptations required to face the absolute sh1tstorm of challenges converging on societies like the water from "Lake Conemaugh" after the "South Fork Dam" break (i.e., when what was formerly protective focused problems avoided in former years, delivering decades worth of suffering in an ~hour-sized package).** This isn't intended to suggest pessimism or apathy, but, rather, how much energy - voting, getting involved in politics, etc. - will be required from the (generally younger) citizens of many countries to break through the momentum of "legacy systems" to create some of the changes necessary. The current indications aren't great when orange clown*** is still dominating the news many days... * To the vast majority of sheltered "modern people" - who don't fish, say, or look at rain droplets with magnification, or have other occasions for encountering the really massive problem that's been developing for decades now ** https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnstown_Flood https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnstown_Flood *** And a whole circus and set of sideshows built around other grifters Edit: one other point - my current favored "solution" is simply burning the plastic (most can be IIRC) in cement kilns and the like. Unsurprisingly, I think, to anyone with some understanding of "polymer chemistry", plastic isn't so "inert" when exposed to the harsh physical environment over the course of decades. In some sense, worse, one of the properties that makes plastic so useful, also means that most biological systems don't have enzymatic / other machinery for dealing with / processing plastic. There has been more burning of plastic, in recent years - it's not "great", but, it's actually still about the least harmful option for waste streams that can't be (practically) reused, recycled, etc. ... (yet). There have been some reasonably good articles on plastics recycling in some of the more mainstream sources that discuss burning (esp. for cement production / in "cement kilns")... I'd provide but kinda rushed (sorry - I need to stop writing long-ish comments when time is tighter), but, web searches should likely turn those up easily enough.

techbro92 3y ago

I don’t think it can work. When I interned at a consumer product manufacturer they used 1/3rd recycled and 2/3rds new plastic. Recycled plastic is too low quality to pass QA. And they could only used recycled bottles.

hakfoo 3y ago
I wonder if the QA standards are too high for throwaway goods. Is a soda bottle a high-precision moulding that needs super-precise tolerances? And if so, are there ways to redesign this to reduce the constraints?
- 542458 3y ago
  Soda bottles are injection-blowmolded, which requires fairly predictable elongation under heat and pressure. I do know using 100% post consumer plastic would affect elongation, but I don’t know how significant the effect is or how hard it would be to compensate for. Fwiw they do need fairly tight tolerances otherwise the cap won’t seal and the product will leak or spoil.
  - wuming2 3y ago
    Would it help to increase thickness? More weight and material, increased cost, to factor in the reduced trail of pollution every piece of single use plastic has?
    - ygra 3y ago
      This probably leads you to reusable bottles, which are just cleaned and refilled again.
      - wuming2 3y ago
        Would be the next logical step. But without strong incentives, either intentional rationing of row materials or the equivalent sharp increase of their cost, I don’t see any indication producers and retailers would adopt it.