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On a trip to California last year, my wife and I rented a house in which the washing machine required a mobile app to start. I don't have a cell phone. Fortunat
by ThinkingGuy 3y ago
On a trip to California last year, my wife and I rented a house in which the washing machine required a mobile app to start. I don't have a cell phone. Fortunately my wife has an iPhone, so we were able to install the app on her phone, connect it to my credit card, and charge it with the minimum mount (about $15, as I recall). I'll never use that specific app again, so we deleted it, meaning the app company got to keep most of the money.
Later we tried renting some e-scooters, which required the use of the Lyft App. My wife has the Lyft app, which let her pay for one scooter but then wouldn't let her unlock a second one for her non-cellphone-owning husband (I guess if you're a parent who wants to use e-scooters with your child, you're out of luck).
I sense that in the not-too-distant future, those of us who don't own a device running either Apple's or Google's proprietary OS will be pretty much excluded from many of the basic conveniences of everyday life.
- userbinator 3y agoDon't some states have laws that require businesses to accept cash?
- jazzyjackson 3y agoyou're required to accept cash as a payment for a debt (at least that's what is says on the bill, "this note is legal tender for all debts, public and private") but you can't be compelled to provide a service for someone who is carrying cash only, unless something changed recently
- happymellon 3y ago> you're required to accept cash as a payment for a debt (at least that's what is says on the bill, "this note is legal tender for all debts, public and private") Does it mean that? Just because it is legal tender doesn't mean you have to accept it.
- brazzy 3y agoYes, it does. That is the definition of "legal tender". Usually there are some restrictions on the amount and the denominations, so you don't have to accept a truck full of 1 cent coins.
- Dalewyn 3y agoAs I understand it as a layman, if: * The seller does not state they do not take cash before the transaction happens, * And the buyer attempts to pay for the transaction after the fact with cash in good faith, * And the sold goods cannot be returned to their original condition prior to sale, Then the buyer is okay (FSVO okay) to leave and go about his day because the seller refused to take money that was presented in good faith by the buyer. Because cash, at least in the US, is "legal tender for all debts public and private" and a transaction to which you owe money is a form of debt. Obligatory not a lawyer and not an accountant disclaimer. I'm way too lazy to go and properly research and cite this.
- jazzyjackson 3y agoThis was definitely a meme going around during covid as more places were going cashless In real life there's not a lot of cases where someone gives you goods before you pay, and anywhere i've been to that don't accept cash clearly posts "this is a cashless business" (sweetgreen and the like, SF/NYC, YMMV) so good luck making the argument that you're entitled to your free salad
- Dalewyn 3y agoYeah, as I said if the buyer makes a good faith payment in cash and if the seller didn't inform him beforehand they don't take cash then the onus is presumably on the seller to take it or leave it because the buyer is willing to do his part and make the pie whole. Usually this isn't a problem because "We don't take cash." signs are prominently posted, but we are speaking in the hypothetical after all.
- brazzy 3y ago
- jlund-molfese 3y agoIt’s interesting you mention scooters, because Lyft allows a single user to unlock two bicycles, at least in Chicago, but not two scooters. I wonder if the risk profile is somehow different?
- vikramkr 3y agoI mean, or they were different teams and the product person on the bike team was like sure, two bikes, while the scooter team was like let's unlock one scooter, and there was no reasoning of any sort of communicating and sometimes stuff is just inconsistent because people don't talk and don't care about things they think don't matter
- smabie 3y agoBird let's you unlike 2 scooters so I imagine there really isn't a good reason for Lyfts one scooter limitation
- almostnormal 3y ago> I wonder if the risk profile is somehow different? A bike does not require a minimum age but an e-scooter does. The app probably knows the age of the user, but has no way to determine the age of the user of additional scooters. It could cross-reference data from social media accounts, and if all friends of the user fullfil the required minimum age then offer additional scooters.
- vikramkr 3y agoI think that thanks to your valiant efforts to remain cell phone free you seem to have missed the memo that the "not too distant future" you described arrived like a decade ago lol. We're well into the "smartphones are a human right" era
- ThinkingGuy 3y agoOh, it hasn't taken any effort on my part. I've just always been fortunate enough to have: -Always lived in a house with a phone -Always worked at a business with a phone -Never been important enough that anyone needed to reach me when I wasn't at home or at work
- alex_duf 3y agoHonest question: how do you stay in touch with friends?
- simoncion 3y agoI'm not the OP, but for me it's email, phone calls, instant messaging, paper mail sometimes. Surely your pocket computer isn't your only computer? Like, you do own a computer with a physical keyboard, right? Pre-COVID, when I made plans to go out with folks, we arranged a time and place to meet, and, like, arrived at that place roughly around that time. It's pretty easy, really.
- Dalewyn 3y ago>Surely your pocket computer isn't your only computer? Like, you do own a computer with a physical keyboard, right? More and more people, particularly the younger generations, don't have anything besides their smartphone because what's the point? It's additional expense, additional maintenance, additional clutter, additional mess. They can do everything they need on their phone.
- flir 3y ago
- WirelessGigabit 3y agoThose preload things are a scourge. Just charge me what I owe.
- squokko 3y agoSounds like your "I don't have a cell phone" routine just means "I make my wife do everything"
- fifilura 3y agoHa! I used that at work! "Sorry I don't have <admin privilieges> so someone else will have to help you with <mundane adminstrative task>"
- grishka 3y agoSome scooter rental apps allow getting more than one scooter at a time. A surprising number of things also breaks down when you don't have mobile data — and that happens every time you travel internationally and don't have or want a sim card for that country. And as a Russian, I also have to mention how terrible it is to travel when you don't have an internationally working debit card. There's so much stuff you simply can't use without one because there's no cash option. Those same scooter rentals are one example.
- jack_pp 3y agoHave you tried using apps like Revolut? Even if you can't link a credit card of your own you could find someone with an international credit card that will top up your account if you give them cash. Though not sure you can even sign up with a Russian id
- grishka 3y ago> Though not sure you can even sign up with a Russian id You definitely can't. You used to be able to sign up for Vivid, a similar app, with a Russian passport and by telling them that you live in Germany with no proof required, but I heard they cracked down on this since.
- hollander 3y agoThis is where digital money comes in. You can buy an anonymous card with digital money on it and you can buy it with cash money. Then you have your debit card.
- mixmastamyk 3y agoAt that point I'd wash my clothes in the sink/tub and hang to dry, techniques learned from my backpacking days. Sometimes the traditional ways are best.
- whynotmaybe 3y agoYou're the embodiment of "laggard" in the theory of Diffusion of innovation which IMHO is quite rare on HN, mainly used by innovators and early adopters. Laggard only start using an innovation because they're forced by external factors. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_innovations https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_innovations
- bboygravity 3y agoHaving to use an app to use a washing machine does not count as "innovation" to me. It's using technology to go a step backward in usability.
- dsiddharth 3y agoI’d certainly prefer to use an app rather than having to hunt for quarters. If the app didn’t exist, I’d probably have to go to a bank to get quarters or an ATM to withdraw cash and beg the closest convenience store to give me change. Granted, there are probably better solutions that require neither quarters nor a mobile app, but between those two, the mobile app wins for me.
- rhn_mk1 3y agoThe problem is that it's not an either-or. Adding app operation alongside coin operation would have been an improvement in useability. Replacing coins with apps is just making it suck in a different way.
- heavenlyblue 3y agoBut then you have two problems: keeping the app going AND dealing with cash
- JohnMakin 3y agoIt is an either or for some businesses. Coins in the USA are in a massive shortage the last few years. Change machines aren’t cheap and repairs can be costly. It makes financial sense to switch to these apps or people wouldn’t do it.
- scarface_74 3y ago[flagged]
- flangola7 3y agoWhy are you being an asshole for no reason? These companies don't care about you. There is no reason to defend brazenly bad practices. You're grating and attacking everyone in this thread who doesn't agree with you.
- scarface_74 3y ago[flagged]
- gambiting 3y agoWow what a weird take. I think it's the same attitude that leads to modern technology being inaccessible to people with disabilities - after all why plan our systems for anything other than "readily accessible technology". If you refuse to use it you're just an asshole, that's your problem, right? If you physically can't use a smartphone because you're blind that's your problem, and not the problem of the idiotic system built so that it can't be accessed in any other way, obviously.
- scarface_74 3y agoA modern iPhone has all sorts of affordances for people with disabilities - including blind people. Do you also complain that you can’t use Uber without a cellphone? Most people in society are more than willing to help those who for whatever reason can’t do for themselves. But are less forgiving for those who won’t
- cornholio 3y agoThat's beyond ridiculous. A smartphone is by definition a usability nightmare, it's a purely visual design that presents as a featureless slab to a visually impaired user. It's great it has some accessibility features to enable such users access to some smartphone specific functions, that they can't have in other ways, such as audio directions. But that doesn't mean we should be actively push this audience to smartphones and destroy actual accesibile designs for things that haven't required a smartphone in the past. let alone berate people for failing to get on with the times and embrace the clearly inferior "evolution".
- red_admiral 3y agoAnd if google's automated algorithms score a false positive and ban you, you're also out of luck.
- nullifidian 3y ago>those of us who don't own a device running either Apple's or Google's proprietary OS will be pretty much excluded from many of the basic conveniences of everyday life. Considering that Google is already incorporating Web Environment Integrity API into Chrome, soon we won't be on the internet either, and that's a much more pressing concern imho.
- Grimburger 3y ago> charge it with the minimum mount (about $15, as I recall) Living in one of the highest density areas on Earth, stuff like this blows my mind. Public washing machines are everywhere for those that don't have their own. I guess the extreme lease costs driven by entirely artificial commercial RE prices put a full stop to it existing in the west.
- IshKebab 3y agoThere are still some launderettes around, but it isn't the cost of running them that matters, it's the inconvenience. Having your own washing machine is dramatically more convenient (and cheaper). The only reason not to have one is if you are extremely short on space.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- austinjp 3y agoScooter workaround: Have multiple apps for multiple providers on one phone. I've done this plenty of times e.g. when one of us has a dead phone. Obviously only works if your city has multiple scooter providers :)
- glogla 3y agoWorse, due to regulations on security, this is the case for banking in EU. A lot of banks don't even have web interface and those they still do require you to install and link smartphone app to be able to log in or to pay with card online. While there might in theory be many second factors with different pros and cons, most bank only allow their own app and nothing else. The few stragglers that still allow text messages make it increasingly user hostile, e.g. rewrite 12 number code and enter special PIN, different from your normal PIN or just click a button in app! And of course, none of the banking apps will work without Google or Apple account, because if you try to run them on deGoogled Android they just refuse to work. It will soon be impossible to be part of society without having Google or Apple account. Maybe it is already the case.
- Tijdreiziger 3y agoNone of the big Dutch consumer banks are smartphone-first. I have the app for mine but I could easily do everything on a computer instead.
- AllegedAlec 3y agoING customer: I can't access my online shit on my desktop without going to my phone for verification
- Tijdreiziger 3y agoYes, but if you don’t want to use your phone, you can ask them to send you a physical 2FA device instead: https://www.ing.nl/particulier/digitaal-bankieren/mijn-ing/scanner https://www.ing.nl/particulier/digitaal-bankieren/mijn-ing/s...
- kefyras 3y ago> A lot of banks don't even have web interface and those they still do require you to install and link smartphone app to be able to log in or to pay with card online. Which "classic" banks don't have online banking? > While there might in theory be many second factors with different pros and cons, most bank only allow their own app and nothing else. The few stragglers that still allow text messages make it increasingly user hostile, e.g. rewrite 12 number code and enter special PIN, different from your normal PIN or just click a button in app! I'm reasonably sure at least with most major Scandinavian banks you can use plain old OTP tokens.
- hippich 3y agoI am not an accountant, but I believe that such unused balance can not be treated by the company as an asset, and instead as liability. And I believe there are laws in every state where such money eventually should be returned to you or to the state's "unclaimed property", if they can't contact you. Search for "unclaimed property <state>" and see if you can locate anything there. On the other hand, I have no idea how that is enforced. So it is quite possible that liability stays on books indefinitely. Or worse - not recorded as liability in the first place..
- IshKebab 3y agoNah these pretend money things have an expiry date exactly for that reason. Check any kind of gift card, voucher, reward scheme etc. Companies don't want never-expiring liabilities and they also want to make money from people not spending account balances.
- teddyh 3y ago“Like regular money but more fun!”: <https://www.jwz.org/blog/2016/08/like-regular-money-but-more-fun/ https://www.jwz.org/blog/2016/08/like-regular-money-but-more...>
- tomjakubowski 3y agoGift card balances cannot legally expire in California. Further, if the balance is <$10 it must be redeemable for cash. https://ktla.com/news/local-news/taco-bell-fined-for-violating-california-gift-card-laws/ https://ktla.com/news/local-news/taco-bell-fined-for-violati...
- nicbou 3y agoThis is a constant issue for me when I travel. I always need another app or another account, and those are often impossible to use without a local phone number and an internet connection. There were also periods of time where I had no active phone number, or no smartphone. Sometimes it was just for a few hours because I ran out of battery. Sometimes it was for a few days because I dropped my phone in a lake. In the later case I could no longer make bank transfers, and if I wasn't well-prepared I could not log into many websites.
- renewiltord 3y agoTwo clarifications to your comment. 1. That money will go through a thing called "escheatment" and end up with the California government on your behalf where it will be held for you. 2. I use the Lyft e-bikes and from recently onwards you can rent one for a friend. It doesn't apply your subscription benefits but I suppose that's life.
- robk 3y agoThe minimum sounds like a scam by the home owner to collect the breakage on their end.
- EspressoGPT 3y agoThen go get a phone
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- mihaaly 3y agoMy big trouble is that my bank account is reacahable remotely either by mobile app or receiving a security code to my mobile. Essentially my fragile to physical impacts, constantly outdating (about every 6 weeks I have to update the app, just to have changes in the UI making me lost or adding features never missed), non-waterproof, expensive enogh (still on the cheaper side compared to average) to be attractive to thives, can go out of signal range (the cell companies provide the bare minimum of towers making inside reception unreliable), may have account troubles (carrier locks out by mistake, it happens to others), depletes without proper charging cable or possibilities, have no access to foreign carriers abroad, ...who knows if I miss some other limiting or risk factors, so this single point of multiple potential failures is the sole key to my bank account (remotely). I am genuinly paranoid about my mobile. I am living for it, not it for me this way. I want to live like you, without degrading quality infalting priced smartphones, but it was quite difficult and in many cases impossible. I am not happy about technology, not at all, it is holding me hostage! Instead of helping me.
- astura 3y ago>(I guess if you're a parent who wants to use e-scooters with your child, you're out of luck) Check the TOS, children are, generally, not allowed to use the e-scooter rentals. Preventing this situation seems very deliberate. For example, Lime- https://help.li.me/hc/en-us/articles/115004915588-How-old-do-I-have-to-be-to-ride-a-Lime-scooter-or-bike https://help.li.me/hc/en-us/articles/115004915588-How-old-do... You must be the legal age to enter into binding contracts. For most countries, this means you need to be 18 years or older to ride Lime scooters or e-bikes. In most countries, you can be 16 years or older for our non-electrical bikes. Before signing up for Lime, make sure to review the User Agreement for your country, which states age requirements
- didntcheck 3y ago> running either Apple's or Google's proprietary OS And specifically a non-rooted, locked bootloader, remotely attested version. Running your own code on your own device is suspicious behavior you know! This is already somewhat the case with banking apps, but luckily it's usually possible to hide root for now And, yes, I get there are legitimate worries about malware and that does kind of solve them, but we've managed with desktop web banking (though not if Google's proposal succeeds). AFAIK most financial scams are executed by social engineering. 2FA (which is now mandated in the EU) is a more effective protection than locking down one endpoint Barclay's was doing 2FA via an offline code generator (looks like a calculator) where you put in your card and entered a PIN since what feels like at least 10 years ago. I know most users would prefer mobile 2FA, but I wish they'd kept that as an option, whereas AFAIK they're phasing it out In any case, de facto saying "you must pay dues to either Apple or Google to bank on the go" is quite bad for free competition
- csours 3y ago> Running your own code on your own device is suspicious behavior you know! Loss of TAM by excluding rooted device: less than 1% Ratio of problems per rooted device vs problems per non-rooted device: More than 100% It's not YOUR fault that it's one of the most meaningful heuristics, but that also doesn't stop it from being a meaningful heuristic.
- yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago> Ratio of problems per rooted device vs problems per non-rooted device: More than 100% What problems would those be?
- anigbrowl 3y agoThat's cool and all, but what if something happens to your wife and you're unable to do anything about because of your purity spiral? Do you want to be telling people 'yeah I couldn't call 911 because I refuse to own a mobile device due to my philosophical principles.'
- mhb 3y agoGood point. Now do the same argument for a gun.