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EV Chargers Should Be Dumber

36 points by CharlesW 3y ago

kccqzy 3y ago
The author is using a NEMA plug, which provides level 2 charging. That's not suitable for road trips. When we talk about infrastructure for charging we are almost always talking about level 3 charging like those 350kW stations at Electrify America. That said, even if we restrict our discussion to just level 2 (sometimes called destination chargers, for a reason), the main cost of installation is to run new lines to the parking lot or wherever they are located. The main cost is not the EVSE. Tesla sells one for $500 for example, and no-name brands sell it for half as much. If a property is already upgrading their infrastructure to run multiple 50A NEMA outlets, the incremental cost of equipping them with an EVSE is tiny.
- sokoloff 3y ago
  If we're talking about infrastructure for road trip charging, I agree with you. I'd estimate that well over 90% of my total car annual milage is for "not road trips" and so when I'm talking about "what infrastructure for charging would we need to electrify half the US fleet?", I'm definitely going to include Level 2 charging at home, offices, and commercial spaces. (I'd even include Level 1 charging at home, but since that's a really short conversation, it rightly doesn't get talked about much.)
  - Sohcahtoa82 3y ago
    For people in cold climates, level 1 charging won't even charge the car at all. If the battery is too cold, it can't take on a charge, and the 1800 watts it gets won't be enough to warm the battery.
    - sokoloff 3y ago
      I live in Boston and have had a LEAF as my year 'round daily driver for almost 9 years. I've never had a problem charging it and only have Level 1 (1440W) charging at home. Boston isn't the most extreme cold climate, but it's plenty cold for long stretches and my cheapest of the lot EV has been fine.
seydor 3y ago
yet i bet they are goign to go to the other direction, and you'll have to pay extra subscription to dismiss the ads. Perhaps they 'll also remove physical features, to sell them as accessories. It's strange how competition works nowadays, every company competing to please their shareholders more.
NotYourLawyer 3y ago
This only works if you’re willing to give people free electricity. And if you’re willing to do that, you might as well make the existing DC fast chargers free too.
- supergeek 3y ago
  A 10kw level 2 charger costs about $2k to install and uses about $1 an hour of power. A 250kw DC charger costs about $50k-150k to install and uses about $30 an hour of power running full tilt. Way lower upfront capital costs and way lower potential for abuse. In places where people stay for multiple hours, there's a huge argument to install about 25-50 level 2 chargers and make them a free perk instead of one big fast charger. Less complexity, less potential for being blocked or vandalized, etc.
  - CameronNemo 3y ago
    My landlord recently had the opportunity of paying $1 so that I could avoid paying $2.50. They didn't do that. Never underestimate the willingness of some short-sighted companies to nickel and dime you to death, even for the slimmest margins. A hotel should just add free L2 chargers for their guests, but many will see it as an opportunity to profit rather than a perk of the overall experience.
    - NotYourLawyer 3y ago
      Should have taken advantage of the arbitrage.
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      I wish hotels would provide non-free L2 chargers rather than just one or two free ones that are camped all the time and so I can never use them. The non-free resource you can use is much more useful than the free resources that is unusable.
djaychela 3y ago
One thing missed out here is that most home chargers(in the UK at least) are essentially 240v 32a sockets. The complexity, though, comes from ensuring that they are safe, so they have complex earth fault detection in place - this is mandated in the UK at least. Without that, you could have a very bad day. Great idea, but the devil is in the details, and many electrical rules (like aviation ones) are written in blood.
- vel0city 3y ago
  The charging "cord" the author is referring to has that earth fault detection and does the amperage negotiation and what not in a box on the cord. Its not just a regular power cord. Its essentially a stripped down level 2 "charger" (EVSE) in cord form instead of a box to mount on the wall.
  - djaychela 3y ago
    That has not been the case for any standalone charging cable that I've seen. They do not offer the same level of safety as an EVSE.
martythemaniak 3y ago
Irrelevant now that everyone is moving to NACS. Free level 2 chargers are just weather-proof plugs - the Tesla wall connector is $500 and can be installed by any electrician anywhere.
- bdcravens 3y ago
  Not "everyone", and even those that haven't aren't retrofitting their existing cars. I suspect it's years before you start seeing those cars on the road, and at least as long before you start seeing charging networks upgrade their current stations.
readams 3y ago
The author seems to be overestimating what level 2 chargers actually do. They are really just switches that turn and off the electricity after you pay (and it verifies with the car). So his idea here of replacing all those complicated level 2 chargers with a regular outlet plus a way to pay is.. actually just what a level 2 charger already is. DC fast chargers are considerably more complicated though.
- supergeek 3y ago
  The biggest difference in the US is the integrated cord. It's about half the total cost and the primary wear item. If we had a spec similar to the UK where the charger had a female J1772 plug and the user supplied the cord we'd be able to roll out a lot more chargers for less money, they'd more consistently work, etc.
  - p1mrx 3y ago
    J1772 can handle up to 80 amps, but cords can vary anywhere from 16-80. How does the charger determine the ampacity of the user's cord?
    - supergeek 3y ago
      In the Type 2 spec there is an additional resistor on the control pins of the cord that communicate the current capacity of the cord to the car. That, along with the signaled capacity of the station gives the car the maximum current it can draw. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_2_connector https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_2_connector
      - p1mrx 3y ago
        Interesting, I wonder if resistor-coded detachable cables could be retrofitted into J1772 or NACS without breaking compatibility. As long as it's possible, it'll probably happen eventually.
  - NavinF 3y ago
    > It's about half the total cost Source?
ROFISH 3y ago
While this should be especially true for destinations, such as hotels or even apartments, there still needs to be fast-charging infrastructure for road trips. And right now, the not-Tesla charging infrastructure is hot garbage. Half the plugs don’t work. The other half is at 1/4 speed, or less. And because it’s all mostly older people, they don’t understand that it takes like 30 minutes to go from like 0 to 50% but 45-60 minutes to go from 50% to 100%. Which is annoying because: With so few chargers, and the ones that are working at slow speed, it is VICIOUS out there. People in Porches yelling at other people to get spots. I don’t know what it’s like for Tesla people, since its twice as much to charge than at the other chargers, but right now the road trip experience for EVs is awful just because of so few working chargers. This is before you get to the 20-30 minute charge times.
- brianwawok 3y ago
  > . People in Porches yelling at other people to get spots. Are you in Cali? In the midwest, Tesla chargers are still empty (like, in 45,000 miles of driving my tesla I have waited 1 time for ~5 minutes on a roadtrip). Even the non-Tesla chargers are cricket land still. Obviously EV adoption is higher out west, but also I think more apartment living that need to public charge all the time. Out here - you would only ever charge on a roadtrip as 90% of charging is at home.
  - vel0city 3y ago
    I think a lot of EV charging stories are region specific. I pretty much never encounter down chargers, there's always been one working open dispenser available any time I've wanted to charge at a CCS fast charger. I'm not saying people's horror stories aren't real, just that it doesn't seem to be the story everywhere.
    - ROFISH 3y ago
      West coast US; and it’s awful. The only times a spot is free is at like 6am, otherwise you’re waiting at least 30 minutes (actively, so no one can take your spot in line) to wait another 30 minutes to charge.
Kirby64 3y ago
EV chargers aren't this "dumb" for one simple reason: they need to be able to charge you for the power used. A dumb outlet, if metered properly, would still need some app or something to be able to restrict you from just taking power infinitely. That's not scalable, unfortunately. It can be offered as an amenity for certain businesses, but as more EVs exist, you'll likely see these free offerings go away. Most RV parks that let you use an EV charge you per day. And it's usually quite expensive, far more than the power you'd consume. $30-50/day isn't unusual.
- _ea1k 3y ago
  Orange Charging offers a low cost "dumb" solution that still manages to bill for the power. It'd be a great fit for a lot of apartment complexes, IMO.
  - vel0city 3y ago
    What is the solution?
    - _ea1k 3y ago
      Really simple outlets with builtin power monitors, cellular for management and billing, bluetooth for mesh connectivity between multiple units, and bluetooth for customer connectivity for activation. Cost ~$400 for a 240V unit. https://www.orangecharger.com/product/orange-outlet-620 https://www.orangecharger.com/product/orange-outlet-620
      - vel0city 3y ago
        That doesn't sound very dumb, that sounds quite complicated. Bluetooth for customer connectivity? So I'll still need an app...
        _ea1k 3y ago
        Well, it can't be completely dumb and still support billing. There are several competing factors here: - They want to support billing - which requires network access, at least for the station itself - They want to minimize the cost of the station both up front and maintenance. Fewer cables and accessories (eg, card readers) helps a lot here - Much of their target audience is inside of parking garages where cell reception can be spotty. This means mesh is a must and bluetooth for client connectivity is best. - They need to have power metering built-in and there are related regulatory concerns due to usage based billing All of this means that it can't be a truly dumb device. What they've come up with is essentially the lowest cost solution that can possibly work.
Bjartr 3y ago
> Paying for the service might be harder to manage without complicated apps. I mean, I can’t picture companies or utilities doling out power without a way to manage or bill drivers. Isn't that precisely a major point of the apps and the rest of the faff involved? Of course the systems are overengineered if you ignore that requirement.
- _ea1k 3y ago
  I've often thought that overnight charging at hotels would be simpler without that. Just a simple keycard to open, similar to other hotel amenities and a fixed cost to use it would be sufficient. At an RV park, maybe charge a small premium if that is even needed.
  - Bjartr 3y ago
    But then the hotels would have to manage & support it, with the extra apps and 3rd party management, it's somebody else's problem.
tw04 3y ago
No offense to the author but that's just ridiculous. If the only charging infrastructure we deploy is single-phase AC power, electric cars are doomed. When your roadtrip involves stopping every 250-300 miles to charge for 8 hours, you just aren't using it. Not to mention he's essentially stealing power since he rolled into an RV park and by his own description didn't actually PAY the RV park for the electricity he used. There are a lot of issues with charging in the US, but that's more a matter of immaturity than anything else. We need far more L3 DC fast chargers, and we need the folks building the charging stations to be more tightly integrated with car mfg's so they can actively test fast charging before new cars hit the market to work out bugs BEFORE the first time someone wants to charge a new model. If you're going to downvote, at least have the decency to respond. I assume folks that don't like the response don't own an electric vehicle. If you've ever taken a road trip in one, you'd immediately know how ridiculous it is to advocate for deploying NEMA 14-50 outlets across the US as a solution to charging... it would be an absolute waste of US taxpayer dollars for endless reasons, not the least of which the charging speeds are so slow as to be borderline useless unless it's a destination you were already planning on spending an overnight trip at. At which point you'd be better served by an L2 charger which have none of the communication issues that sometimes exist with DC fast charging.
- _ea1k 3y ago
  To be fair, I doubt most knowledgeable RV parks would mind. In my area, it is less than <$.15/kwh (often _much_ less). Even for a Lucid, that'd be $16.50 at most. The parking spots here tend to be $50 and up and most RVs would be running A/C off the power most of the day anyway. So the real difference is maybe ~half of that? I doubt the campground would complain about a customer like this. And, tbh, RV energy usage will vary widely too. They don't really charge differently for a large RV with a big A/C on >90F days vs a smaller one there during early spring.
  - tw04 3y ago
    >In my area, it is less than <$.15/kwh (often _much_ less). Even for a Lucid, that'd be $16.50 at most. The parking spots here tend to be $50 and up and most RVs would be running A/C off the power most of the day anyway. So the real difference is maybe ~half of that? I'm not following, you're saying RV parks would have no issues with EVs swinging by every day, using $15 of electricity, and not ever paying a dime? I'm not sure about your area, but around here campgrounds aren't exactly printing money... they would very much not be cool with someone stealing their power. If you're suggesting someone paying $50 for a parking spot and then plugging in - sure the RV park isn't going to care at all. The author of the article appears to have just taken the power without paying a dime though...
harshaw 3y ago
this isn't really the author's point - but woe on anyone who tries to sign up for the myriad of third party charging web sites to get charging to work. I am looking at you EVGo, Enel X Way, Electrify America, Charge point,etc. None of these just let you swipe a card and pay. None of the level 2 or level 3 chargers has the basic functionality you get at a gas pump: you can just pay with a card. No - you need to download the app, sign up, do f*ing email verification, enter your credit card, enter the station number in the app because the QR Scanning doesn't work. All to find out that the stupid charger refuses to talk to your car. To add insult to injury -there are failure points everyway through this process. Not enough bandwidth to download the bloated app, the email verification doesn't work. Have you tried calling the support number on a charger? That's really an exercise in self torture. So yes, EV Chargers should be a lot dumber. Take my money, give my electrons, and screw off about everything else.
- mulmen 3y ago
  The really mind blowing part is that some chargers do have card readers on them but they are as reliable as the chargers themselves. The Electrify America app works exactly as well as you would expect. Which is to say barely at all. First it is slow. Like, calling-a-thousand-recursive-lambdas slow. Second, it will get stuck on previous sessions so you can't start a new one. Third, support's script tells them to make you log out even though this doesn't fix the problem. Fourth, the login form in the app doesn't tag the password field to utilize iOS keychain so after logging out you have to know your password off the top of your head. The entire experience is one unending papercut. It's modern UXD meets bootcamp quality code. And it's still the best network I have used! Chargepoint may as well not even exist!
  - kccqzy 3y ago
    Download an Electrify America virtual membership pass and you'll never need the app any more. Just use NFC. I suspect the UX in the app is so poor because nobody really uses the app to initiate charging. Just tap your phone and done. It even works without cellular signal. With such superior UX I don't see why anyone still uses the app.
fooker 3y ago
Everything you don't understand seems like it could be dumber. The details prop up only when you delve into it or start experiencing issues. There is a relevant quote from Einstein here : "Make things as simple as possible, but not simpler."
supergeek 3y ago
I think the bigger takeaway from this is that the US really fumbled our level 2 charging protocol by requiring the cable to be integrated into the charger. In the UK the level 2 charger is just a plug and the user supplies their own cable. It cuts cost, cuts down on vandalism, and makes the car side port no longer as important. Using NEMA plugs instead of smarter level 2 chargers has the big limitation that you need a ton of adapters to support every possible plug type. Tesla sells as set of 8 adapters and it still doesn't include two of the most common RV park plugs: https://shop.tesla.com/product/gen-2-nema-adapters https://shop.tesla.com/product/gen-2-nema-adapters
- vel0city 3y ago
  The other challenge with using the NEMA plugs is I doubt many of them are rated for as many plug cycles as what a J1772 or Tesla connector is rated for. If that plug is going to get plugged and unplugged several times a day it'll wear out pretty quick.
  - supergeek 3y ago
    The plug can handle similar cycles under the spec, but a lot of residential plugs are not. Those RV site plugs handle 1-2 cycles daily, but they're more robust, more expensive versions.
    - vel0city 3y ago
      They have 1-2 different RVs coming in daily, per site? Wouldn't they normally get a new customer come in, plug in (1/2 a cycle), stay for a day or two (or more!) and then leave (1/2 a cycle), then opening the spot for someone and assuming an instant turn around get another customer? That's then 1 cycle every 1-2 days or more. I figure most would get like 4-5 cycles a week, not 7-14. That's a difference of like 460 cycles a year.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  > In the UK the level 2 charger is just a plug and the user supplies their own cable. It cuts cost, cuts down on vandalism, and makes the car side port no longer as important. That sounds really inconvenient, actually. There I would have to carry around a charger while driving? I like just plugging in and not having anything in my trunk.
p1mrx 3y ago
The problem is how to bill users for electricity consumed, because charging a car can cost $10 or more. The simplest solution would be a kWh meter on the outlet, but someone has to read it. Next would be a bluetooth, NFC, or optical interface that lets you send kWh credits from your phone without the charger itself needing a cell modem, but then the problem is how to store value on a phone without double spending or losing the money. That seems really hard, though a campground could probably get by with a 95% solution that errs on the side of refunding to the customer.
- mulmen 3y ago
  So, a gas pump? Not everything needs to be an app. Especially in a world where almost nobody can build an app that actually functions.
- vel0city 3y ago
  You'd have a credit card terminal connected to a relay, ammeter, and ground fault protection circuits. Credit card authorized, engage the relay, track the current, calculate some rate * amps * time. But if you're there, you're already most the way there to the "complicated" EVSE.
- olyjohn 3y ago
  If people are too dumb to read a meter that goes from 0-1000kwh, maybe they shouldn't be driving. And if they're that dumb, why does having some app with some shitty bluetooth connectivity that doesn't work half the time solve the problem? Just put in your card at the machine FFS. Treat it just like a gas pump. this is not technically difficult, but I feel like everybody is making it out to be some difficult problem. Gas and electricity refill a vehicle in exactly the same way. You put in X amount of energy, go X amount of miles. Electricity just takes longer to charge, but otherwise what is so different? And somehow every gas station managed to authorize your credit card even in the most remote of bumfuck places. Even where all there is is a land line, they can still dial out to authorize. Again, solved problem. If you want to have an account and an app, fine. Don't force everybody else to have it.
  - 3y ago
CameronNemo 3y ago
it maxed out at 9.6kW per hour It comforts me that even serious publications still get these units wrong.
grecy 3y ago
People assume driving the Alaska Highway in an EV would be difficult, but actually it's extremely easy thanks to all the RV parks with 50 Amp service. They're plentiful, and the cost is already rolled into camping a night.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  You are basically limited to one charge a day, however, that makes the trip sort of slow. Here is hoping BC Hydro keeps expanding their charging infrastructure north.
  - grecy 3y ago
    I've driven the AK highway over a dozen times, summer and winter. Take your time, enjoy it. There's no rush.
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      I’ve only done it once as a 4 year old in a 4 person family…in a Datsun hatchback.
i1856511 3y ago
This is a pretty uninformed and distracting article.
KirillPanov 3y ago
This is why I have not bought an EV, and I'm not buying one until it's solved. Our current fueling infrastructure does not care what brand of vehicle I have. It does not require any particular payment method -- I can even pay cash! It is permissionless. I'll buy an EV as soon as we they have permissionless fueling. Safety is a red herring. Legacy fueling is far more dangerous than EV fueling -- we're talking about combustible hydrocarbons for crying out loud.
stetrain 3y ago
Slow chargers at destinations (home, work, hotels, cabins, ski resorts) should be dumb. At most they should take payment directly via contactless or via a shared kiosk in a parking lot, no app or account required. Most Level 2 chargers are pretty dumb. They are not much more than an integrated AC outlet, cable, contractor, GFCI, and optionally a payment terminal. Fast chargers should be smart. They should report their status and availability, so you (and your in-car nav) know which chargers are working or congested. The car should be smart, and navigate you to these chargers (with options of course if you have preferred routes, stops, charger brands, etc.). The car knows when to schedule a charge so you will arrive with an optimal battery charge (low) and not spend extra time charging all the way to 100% when it is faster to move on to the next trip segment. Fast chargers should also take payment either via plug-and-charge that bills a single account linked to your car (ie Ford BlueOval pass), or take tap-to-pay directly on the charger without an app or account requirement. The latter is a requirement of the federal infrastructure funding for EV fast chargers. Destination chargers are great and can absolutely make EVs a daily convenience for many. But I've taken many road trips in my EV that simply would not have been possible with basic dumb outlets as my only way to charge.
- vel0city 3y ago
  That's an interesting idea. Like with pay parking lots, have a central kiosk that you go pay for the parking and it enables the EVSE at the spot. Only a few actual payment terminals needed means it reduces the odds of a failure at any particular spot and reduces the cost. Seems like a good idea. At hotels it could be tied to a room key to charge to the room.
  - stetrain 3y ago
    Tesla has actually implemented it in locations where their chargers did not have onboard payment terminals (since Teslas charging at Tesla chargers negotiate this automatically) but were required to add local payment options. https://driveteslacanada.ca/news/tesla-adds-standalone-screens-at-superchargers-in-taiwan/ https://driveteslacanada.ca/news/tesla-adds-standalone-scree...
rollcat 3y ago
As someone who's lived car-free my entire life (yay EU and good public transport), I'm baffled to find out charging a car even requires an app. How did we manage to fuck up something as basic as delivering power? We've been doing this for like, dunno, 150 years? I understand charging requires payment - why not a simple credit card terminal? Or gosh - a clerk that would accept cash, like what every single gas station in existence has been doing for over a century?
alfor 3y ago
nope. The standard plug is inadequate for full duty, long time high current. The contacts oxidise because they heat up, then the contact get worse, they heat more until the plastic melt. It can work for a short time, but it’s not a good long term solution. The Tesla plug and charger is a way better system, and is currently being adopted by almost all EV in north america.
elicash 3y ago
I remember listening to a great podcast about digital circuit breakers that seems relevant to this discussion: https://www.volts.wtf/p/the-digital-circuit-breaker-and-why#details https://www.volts.wtf/p/the-digital-circuit-breaker-and-why#...
mypgovroom 3y ago
"forgot to bring along a NACS-to-CCS adapter" and that's where I stopped reading. Step 1. Please understand the technology before you complain about it. There is no such thing as NACS-to-CCS adapter currently. If there was it would do no good at a AC charging station.
- stetrain 3y ago
  The confusion is kind of understandable with the multiple overlapping standards. They were really talking about a Tesla/NACs to J1772 adapter, which do exist and can be used at Tesla destination chargers.
  - mypgovroom 3y ago
    No shit sherlock
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
ShakataGaNai 3y ago
> Installing NEMA 14-50 outlets everywhere could put the EV revolution on the road sooner rather than later. No. No it won't. It's helpful TODAY for homes and office buildings and hotels. Destinations. But as the author said himself, it was limited to below 10kw/hr. That means your average Tesla will require roughly 7 hours for a full charge, or 20 hours for your hummer EV. It's unlikely you'll need a FULL charge, but if you're at work for 8 hours, that's not a problem. Or at home sleeping, not an issue. But for any long distance driving? No dice. We *need* fast charging. We need smart chargers that can handle multiple cars intelligently until we get to a point where battery and capacitor technology is far enough along to rival gas. The average consumer doesn't want to futz with a J1772 adapter to get free EV charging when on an errand - let alone tinker about with a dozen adapters, plug ends and whatnot. Now if someone is an EV enthusiast, no problem. They probably have all the adapters and more with them all the time (I do). At the end of the day, the 14-50 argument is a bit like saying "Everyone should carry their own fuel pump with themselves. That'd be so much easier than all these fancy gas station pumps. Just let people dangle the hose directly into the tank and pump it out themselves." Oh.. and just as dangerous.
- jillesvangurp 3y ago
  We need some fast charging and that's coming online as investments are ramping up rapidly. However, the vast majority of people aren't traveling anywhere close to the maximum range of their car the vast majority of the time. Meaning the vast majority of the time, all they need is a simple slow charger. Destination charging is a thing. You go shopping, you top up some kwh. You sleep at a hotel, your car charges overnight. You go to work, you plug it in in the car park. Etc. There's a massive growth in the availability of chargers like that. It's only when you are going to drive longer distances that a fast charger is nice and worth the premium price you'll likely pay for using one. Most highways have those. Some areas are still a bit under served. Basically fuel pumps require electricity to function. So any fuel station is a potentially charging point. And when double digit percentages of cars are electric, most of the surviving ones will be offering chargers. Many of course won't make it. Range anxiety is going to be a thing if you own an ICE vehicle pretty soon. Is there going to be a petrol station where I'm going? Is it still in business? Is it getting supplied? Just mocking ICE car owners here of course. Unlike an EV, you are really screwed if you go out of range of a petrol station. An EV can just plugin to whatever. Even another EV if that's needed. Mobile chargers are already a thing. The practical reality of course is that the overall number of chargers is already much higher than the number of petrol stations. And many EV owners rarely use a fast charger. For most people, fast charging is a thing they do a few times a year. Mostly they just plug in and forget about it. My parents have been driving an EV for the last half year. Fast charging is a thing my father stressed out about. I asked him the other day if he had used a fast charger yet. Answer: no. The need for that simply hasn't come up yet. The car has enough range for what they do. They've done destination charging a few times. But not fast charging. Mostly they charge at home and it's all they need. They are planning a trip to France soon (1200km drive). So, they will have to plan some charging stops. Likely that will be a mix of hotels with chargers and maybe a few tactical fast charging stops. But that will be the first time.
lowbloodsugar 3y ago
Sooo, how would you pay for this then? Or rather, how would a supplier charge you for this? Would they pay a human to flip a switch after you hand over some cash? And if they did, would some bright spark write an app to do that instead? And build some automated switching gear to turn it on and off? And then maybe thud think, hey, what if the customer forget their cable? Maybe we could have our thing have its own cable? Fuck sake.
- bdcravens 3y ago
  Same way you pay for gas.

36 points by CharlesW 3y ago

The author is using a NEMA plug, which provides level 2 charging. That's not suitable for road trips. When we talk about infrastructure for charging we are almost always talking about level 3 charging like those 350kW stations at Electrify America. That said, even if we restrict our discussion to just level 2 (sometimes called destination chargers, for a reason), the main cost of installation is to run new lines to the parking lot or wherever they are located. The main cost is not the EVSE. Tesla sells one for $500 for example, and no-name brands sell it for half as much. If a property is already upgrading their infrastructure to run multiple 50A NEMA outlets, the incremental cost of equipping them with an EVSE is tiny.

sokoloff 3y ago
If we're talking about infrastructure for road trip charging, I agree with you. I'd estimate that well over 90% of my total car annual milage is for "not road trips" and so when I'm talking about "what infrastructure for charging would we need to electrify half the US fleet?", I'm definitely going to include Level 2 charging at home, offices, and commercial spaces. (I'd even include Level 1 charging at home, but since that's a really short conversation, it rightly doesn't get talked about much.)
- Sohcahtoa82 3y ago
  For people in cold climates, level 1 charging won't even charge the car at all. If the battery is too cold, it can't take on a charge, and the 1800 watts it gets won't be enough to warm the battery.
  - sokoloff 3y ago
    I live in Boston and have had a LEAF as my year 'round daily driver for almost 9 years. I've never had a problem charging it and only have Level 1 (1440W) charging at home. Boston isn't the most extreme cold climate, but it's plenty cold for long stretches and my cheapest of the lot EV has been fine.

seydor 3y ago

yet i bet they are goign to go to the other direction, and you'll have to pay extra subscription to dismiss the ads. Perhaps they 'll also remove physical features, to sell them as accessories. It's strange how competition works nowadays, every company competing to please their shareholders more.

NotYourLawyer 3y ago

This only works if you’re willing to give people free electricity. And if you’re willing to do that, you might as well make the existing DC fast chargers free too.

supergeek 3y ago
A 10kw level 2 charger costs about $2k to install and uses about $1 an hour of power. A 250kw DC charger costs about $50k-150k to install and uses about $30 an hour of power running full tilt. Way lower upfront capital costs and way lower potential for abuse. In places where people stay for multiple hours, there's a huge argument to install about 25-50 level 2 chargers and make them a free perk instead of one big fast charger. Less complexity, less potential for being blocked or vandalized, etc.
- CameronNemo 3y ago
  My landlord recently had the opportunity of paying $1 so that I could avoid paying $2.50. They didn't do that. Never underestimate the willingness of some short-sighted companies to nickel and dime you to death, even for the slimmest margins. A hotel should just add free L2 chargers for their guests, but many will see it as an opportunity to profit rather than a perk of the overall experience.
  - NotYourLawyer 3y ago
    Should have taken advantage of the arbitrage.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    I wish hotels would provide non-free L2 chargers rather than just one or two free ones that are camped all the time and so I can never use them. The non-free resource you can use is much more useful than the free resources that is unusable.

djaychela 3y ago

One thing missed out here is that most home chargers(in the UK at least) are essentially 240v 32a sockets. The complexity, though, comes from ensuring that they are safe, so they have complex earth fault detection in place - this is mandated in the UK at least. Without that, you could have a very bad day. Great idea, but the devil is in the details, and many electrical rules (like aviation ones) are written in blood.

vel0city 3y ago
The charging "cord" the author is referring to has that earth fault detection and does the amperage negotiation and what not in a box on the cord. Its not just a regular power cord. Its essentially a stripped down level 2 "charger" (EVSE) in cord form instead of a box to mount on the wall.
- djaychela 3y ago
  That has not been the case for any standalone charging cable that I've seen. They do not offer the same level of safety as an EVSE.

martythemaniak 3y ago

Irrelevant now that everyone is moving to NACS. Free level 2 chargers are just weather-proof plugs - the Tesla wall connector is $500 and can be installed by any electrician anywhere.

bdcravens 3y ago
Not "everyone", and even those that haven't aren't retrofitting their existing cars. I suspect it's years before you start seeing those cars on the road, and at least as long before you start seeing charging networks upgrade their current stations.

readams 3y ago

The author seems to be overestimating what level 2 chargers actually do. They are really just switches that turn and off the electricity after you pay (and it verifies with the car). So his idea here of replacing all those complicated level 2 chargers with a regular outlet plus a way to pay is.. actually just what a level 2 charger already is. DC fast chargers are considerably more complicated though.

supergeek 3y ago
The biggest difference in the US is the integrated cord. It's about half the total cost and the primary wear item. If we had a spec similar to the UK where the charger had a female J1772 plug and the user supplied the cord we'd be able to roll out a lot more chargers for less money, they'd more consistently work, etc.
- p1mrx 3y ago
  J1772 can handle up to 80 amps, but cords can vary anywhere from 16-80. How does the charger determine the ampacity of the user's cord?
  - supergeek 3y ago
    In the Type 2 spec there is an additional resistor on the control pins of the cord that communicate the current capacity of the cord to the car. That, along with the signaled capacity of the station gives the car the maximum current it can draw. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_2_connector https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_2_connector
    - p1mrx 3y ago
      Interesting, I wonder if resistor-coded detachable cables could be retrofitted into J1772 or NACS without breaking compatibility. As long as it's possible, it'll probably happen eventually.
- NavinF 3y ago
  > It's about half the total cost Source?

ROFISH 3y ago

While this should be especially true for destinations, such as hotels or even apartments, there still needs to be fast-charging infrastructure for road trips. And right now, the not-Tesla charging infrastructure is hot garbage. Half the plugs don’t work. The other half is at 1/4 speed, or less. And because it’s all mostly older people, they don’t understand that it takes like 30 minutes to go from like 0 to 50% but 45-60 minutes to go from 50% to 100%. Which is annoying because: With so few chargers, and the ones that are working at slow speed, it is VICIOUS out there. People in Porches yelling at other people to get spots. I don’t know what it’s like for Tesla people, since its twice as much to charge than at the other chargers, but right now the road trip experience for EVs is awful just because of so few working chargers. This is before you get to the 20-30 minute charge times.

brianwawok 3y ago
> . People in Porches yelling at other people to get spots. Are you in Cali? In the midwest, Tesla chargers are still empty (like, in 45,000 miles of driving my tesla I have waited 1 time for ~5 minutes on a roadtrip). Even the non-Tesla chargers are cricket land still. Obviously EV adoption is higher out west, but also I think more apartment living that need to public charge all the time. Out here - you would only ever charge on a roadtrip as 90% of charging is at home.
- vel0city 3y ago
  I think a lot of EV charging stories are region specific. I pretty much never encounter down chargers, there's always been one working open dispenser available any time I've wanted to charge at a CCS fast charger. I'm not saying people's horror stories aren't real, just that it doesn't seem to be the story everywhere.
  - ROFISH 3y ago
    West coast US; and it’s awful. The only times a spot is free is at like 6am, otherwise you’re waiting at least 30 minutes (actively, so no one can take your spot in line) to wait another 30 minutes to charge.

Kirby64 3y ago

EV chargers aren't this "dumb" for one simple reason: they need to be able to charge you for the power used. A dumb outlet, if metered properly, would still need some app or something to be able to restrict you from just taking power infinitely. That's not scalable, unfortunately. It can be offered as an amenity for certain businesses, but as more EVs exist, you'll likely see these free offerings go away. Most RV parks that let you use an EV charge you per day. And it's usually quite expensive, far more than the power you'd consume. $30-50/day isn't unusual.

_ea1k 3y ago
Orange Charging offers a low cost "dumb" solution that still manages to bill for the power. It'd be a great fit for a lot of apartment complexes, IMO.
- vel0city 3y ago
  What is the solution?
  - _ea1k 3y ago
    Really simple outlets with builtin power monitors, cellular for management and billing, bluetooth for mesh connectivity between multiple units, and bluetooth for customer connectivity for activation. Cost ~$400 for a 240V unit. https://www.orangecharger.com/product/orange-outlet-620 https://www.orangecharger.com/product/orange-outlet-620
    - vel0city 3y ago
      That doesn't sound very dumb, that sounds quite complicated. Bluetooth for customer connectivity? So I'll still need an app...
      - _ea1k 3y ago
        Well, it can't be completely dumb and still support billing. There are several competing factors here: - They want to support billing - which requires network access, at least for the station itself - They want to minimize the cost of the station both up front and maintenance. Fewer cables and accessories (eg, card readers) helps a lot here - Much of their target audience is inside of parking garages where cell reception can be spotty. This means mesh is a must and bluetooth for client connectivity is best. - They need to have power metering built-in and there are related regulatory concerns due to usage based billing All of this means that it can't be a truly dumb device. What they've come up with is essentially the lowest cost solution that can possibly work.

Bjartr 3y ago

> Paying for the service might be harder to manage without complicated apps. I mean, I can’t picture companies or utilities doling out power without a way to manage or bill drivers. Isn't that precisely a major point of the apps and the rest of the faff involved? Of course the systems are overengineered if you ignore that requirement.

_ea1k 3y ago
I've often thought that overnight charging at hotels would be simpler without that. Just a simple keycard to open, similar to other hotel amenities and a fixed cost to use it would be sufficient. At an RV park, maybe charge a small premium if that is even needed.
- Bjartr 3y ago
  But then the hotels would have to manage & support it, with the extra apps and 3rd party management, it's somebody else's problem.

tw04 3y ago

No offense to the author but that's just ridiculous. If the only charging infrastructure we deploy is single-phase AC power, electric cars are doomed. When your roadtrip involves stopping every 250-300 miles to charge for 8 hours, you just aren't using it. Not to mention he's essentially stealing power since he rolled into an RV park and by his own description didn't actually PAY the RV park for the electricity he used. There are a lot of issues with charging in the US, but that's more a matter of immaturity than anything else. We need far more L3 DC fast chargers, and we need the folks building the charging stations to be more tightly integrated with car mfg's so they can actively test fast charging before new cars hit the market to work out bugs BEFORE the first time someone wants to charge a new model. If you're going to downvote, at least have the decency to respond. I assume folks that don't like the response don't own an electric vehicle. If you've ever taken a road trip in one, you'd immediately know how ridiculous it is to advocate for deploying NEMA 14-50 outlets across the US as a solution to charging... it would be an absolute waste of US taxpayer dollars for endless reasons, not the least of which the charging speeds are so slow as to be borderline useless unless it's a destination you were already planning on spending an overnight trip at. At which point you'd be better served by an L2 charger which have none of the communication issues that sometimes exist with DC fast charging.

_ea1k 3y ago
To be fair, I doubt most knowledgeable RV parks would mind. In my area, it is less than <$.15/kwh (often _much_ less). Even for a Lucid, that'd be $16.50 at most. The parking spots here tend to be $50 and up and most RVs would be running A/C off the power most of the day anyway. So the real difference is maybe ~half of that? I doubt the campground would complain about a customer like this. And, tbh, RV energy usage will vary widely too. They don't really charge differently for a large RV with a big A/C on >90F days vs a smaller one there during early spring.
- tw04 3y ago
  >In my area, it is less than <$.15/kwh (often _much_ less). Even for a Lucid, that'd be $16.50 at most. The parking spots here tend to be $50 and up and most RVs would be running A/C off the power most of the day anyway. So the real difference is maybe ~half of that? I'm not following, you're saying RV parks would have no issues with EVs swinging by every day, using $15 of electricity, and not ever paying a dime? I'm not sure about your area, but around here campgrounds aren't exactly printing money... they would very much not be cool with someone stealing their power. If you're suggesting someone paying $50 for a parking spot and then plugging in - sure the RV park isn't going to care at all. The author of the article appears to have just taken the power without paying a dime though...

harshaw 3y ago

this isn't really the author's point - but woe on anyone who tries to sign up for the myriad of third party charging web sites to get charging to work. I am looking at you EVGo, Enel X Way, Electrify America, Charge point,etc. None of these just let you swipe a card and pay. None of the level 2 or level 3 chargers has the basic functionality you get at a gas pump: you can just pay with a card. No - you need to download the app, sign up, do f*ing email verification, enter your credit card, enter the station number in the app because the QR Scanning doesn't work. All to find out that the stupid charger refuses to talk to your car. To add insult to injury -there are failure points everyway through this process. Not enough bandwidth to download the bloated app, the email verification doesn't work. Have you tried calling the support number on a charger? That's really an exercise in self torture. So yes, EV Chargers should be a lot dumber. Take my money, give my electrons, and screw off about everything else.

mulmen 3y ago
The really mind blowing part is that some chargers do have card readers on them but they are as reliable as the chargers themselves. The Electrify America app works exactly as well as you would expect. Which is to say barely at all. First it is slow. Like, calling-a-thousand-recursive-lambdas slow. Second, it will get stuck on previous sessions so you can't start a new one. Third, support's script tells them to make you log out even though this doesn't fix the problem. Fourth, the login form in the app doesn't tag the password field to utilize iOS keychain so after logging out you have to know your password off the top of your head. The entire experience is one unending papercut. It's modern UXD meets bootcamp quality code. And it's still the best network I have used! Chargepoint may as well not even exist!
- kccqzy 3y ago
  Download an Electrify America virtual membership pass and you'll never need the app any more. Just use NFC. I suspect the UX in the app is so poor because nobody really uses the app to initiate charging. Just tap your phone and done. It even works without cellular signal. With such superior UX I don't see why anyone still uses the app.

fooker 3y ago

Everything you don't understand seems like it could be dumber. The details prop up only when you delve into it or start experiencing issues. There is a relevant quote from Einstein here : "Make things as simple as possible, but not simpler."

supergeek 3y ago

I think the bigger takeaway from this is that the US really fumbled our level 2 charging protocol by requiring the cable to be integrated into the charger. In the UK the level 2 charger is just a plug and the user supplies their own cable. It cuts cost, cuts down on vandalism, and makes the car side port no longer as important. Using NEMA plugs instead of smarter level 2 chargers has the big limitation that you need a ton of adapters to support every possible plug type. Tesla sells as set of 8 adapters and it still doesn't include two of the most common RV park plugs: https://shop.tesla.com/product/gen-2-nema-adapters https://shop.tesla.com/product/gen-2-nema-adapters

vel0city 3y ago
The other challenge with using the NEMA plugs is I doubt many of them are rated for as many plug cycles as what a J1772 or Tesla connector is rated for. If that plug is going to get plugged and unplugged several times a day it'll wear out pretty quick.
- supergeek 3y ago
  The plug can handle similar cycles under the spec, but a lot of residential plugs are not. Those RV site plugs handle 1-2 cycles daily, but they're more robust, more expensive versions.
  - vel0city 3y ago
    They have 1-2 different RVs coming in daily, per site? Wouldn't they normally get a new customer come in, plug in (1/2 a cycle), stay for a day or two (or more!) and then leave (1/2 a cycle), then opening the spot for someone and assuming an instant turn around get another customer? That's then 1 cycle every 1-2 days or more. I figure most would get like 4-5 cycles a week, not 7-14. That's a difference of like 460 cycles a year.
seanmcdirmid 3y ago
> In the UK the level 2 charger is just a plug and the user supplies their own cable. It cuts cost, cuts down on vandalism, and makes the car side port no longer as important. That sounds really inconvenient, actually. There I would have to carry around a charger while driving? I like just plugging in and not having anything in my trunk.

p1mrx 3y ago

The problem is how to bill users for electricity consumed, because charging a car can cost $10 or more. The simplest solution would be a kWh meter on the outlet, but someone has to read it. Next would be a bluetooth, NFC, or optical interface that lets you send kWh credits from your phone without the charger itself needing a cell modem, but then the problem is how to store value on a phone without double spending or losing the money. That seems really hard, though a campground could probably get by with a 95% solution that errs on the side of refunding to the customer.

mulmen 3y ago
So, a gas pump? Not everything needs to be an app. Especially in a world where almost nobody can build an app that actually functions.
vel0city 3y ago
You'd have a credit card terminal connected to a relay, ammeter, and ground fault protection circuits. Credit card authorized, engage the relay, track the current, calculate some rate * amps * time. But if you're there, you're already most the way there to the "complicated" EVSE.
olyjohn 3y ago
If people are too dumb to read a meter that goes from 0-1000kwh, maybe they shouldn't be driving. And if they're that dumb, why does having some app with some shitty bluetooth connectivity that doesn't work half the time solve the problem? Just put in your card at the machine FFS. Treat it just like a gas pump. this is not technically difficult, but I feel like everybody is making it out to be some difficult problem. Gas and electricity refill a vehicle in exactly the same way. You put in X amount of energy, go X amount of miles. Electricity just takes longer to charge, but otherwise what is so different? And somehow every gas station managed to authorize your credit card even in the most remote of bumfuck places. Even where all there is is a land line, they can still dial out to authorize. Again, solved problem. If you want to have an account and an app, fine. Don't force everybody else to have it.
- 3y ago

CameronNemo 3y ago

it maxed out at 9.6kW per hour It comforts me that even serious publications still get these units wrong.

grecy 3y ago

People assume driving the Alaska Highway in an EV would be difficult, but actually it's extremely easy thanks to all the RV parks with 50 Amp service. They're plentiful, and the cost is already rolled into camping a night.

seanmcdirmid 3y ago
You are basically limited to one charge a day, however, that makes the trip sort of slow. Here is hoping BC Hydro keeps expanding their charging infrastructure north.
- grecy 3y ago
  I've driven the AK highway over a dozen times, summer and winter. Take your time, enjoy it. There's no rush.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    I’ve only done it once as a 4 year old in a 4 person family…in a Datsun hatchback.

i1856511 3y ago

This is a pretty uninformed and distracting article.

KirillPanov 3y ago

This is why I have not bought an EV, and I'm not buying one until it's solved. Our current fueling infrastructure does not care what brand of vehicle I have. It does not require any particular payment method -- I can even pay cash! It is permissionless. I'll buy an EV as soon as we they have permissionless fueling. Safety is a red herring. Legacy fueling is far more dangerous than EV fueling -- we're talking about combustible hydrocarbons for crying out loud.

stetrain 3y ago

Slow chargers at destinations (home, work, hotels, cabins, ski resorts) should be dumb. At most they should take payment directly via contactless or via a shared kiosk in a parking lot, no app or account required. Most Level 2 chargers are pretty dumb. They are not much more than an integrated AC outlet, cable, contractor, GFCI, and optionally a payment terminal. Fast chargers should be smart. They should report their status and availability, so you (and your in-car nav) know which chargers are working or congested. The car should be smart, and navigate you to these chargers (with options of course if you have preferred routes, stops, charger brands, etc.). The car knows when to schedule a charge so you will arrive with an optimal battery charge (low) and not spend extra time charging all the way to 100% when it is faster to move on to the next trip segment. Fast chargers should also take payment either via plug-and-charge that bills a single account linked to your car (ie Ford BlueOval pass), or take tap-to-pay directly on the charger without an app or account requirement. The latter is a requirement of the federal infrastructure funding for EV fast chargers. Destination chargers are great and can absolutely make EVs a daily convenience for many. But I've taken many road trips in my EV that simply would not have been possible with basic dumb outlets as my only way to charge.

vel0city 3y ago
That's an interesting idea. Like with pay parking lots, have a central kiosk that you go pay for the parking and it enables the EVSE at the spot. Only a few actual payment terminals needed means it reduces the odds of a failure at any particular spot and reduces the cost. Seems like a good idea. At hotels it could be tied to a room key to charge to the room.
- stetrain 3y ago
  Tesla has actually implemented it in locations where their chargers did not have onboard payment terminals (since Teslas charging at Tesla chargers negotiate this automatically) but were required to add local payment options. https://driveteslacanada.ca/news/tesla-adds-standalone-screens-at-superchargers-in-taiwan/ https://driveteslacanada.ca/news/tesla-adds-standalone-scree...

rollcat 3y ago

As someone who's lived car-free my entire life (yay EU and good public transport), I'm baffled to find out charging a car even requires an app. How did we manage to fuck up something as basic as delivering power? We've been doing this for like, dunno, 150 years? I understand charging requires payment - why not a simple credit card terminal? Or gosh - a clerk that would accept cash, like what every single gas station in existence has been doing for over a century?

alfor 3y ago

nope. The standard plug is inadequate for full duty, long time high current. The contacts oxidise because they heat up, then the contact get worse, they heat more until the plastic melt. It can work for a short time, but it’s not a good long term solution. The Tesla plug and charger is a way better system, and is currently being adopted by almost all EV in north america.

elicash 3y ago

I remember listening to a great podcast about digital circuit breakers that seems relevant to this discussion: https://www.volts.wtf/p/the-digital-circuit-breaker-and-why#details https://www.volts.wtf/p/the-digital-circuit-breaker-and-why#...

mypgovroom 3y ago

"forgot to bring along a NACS-to-CCS adapter" and that's where I stopped reading. Step 1. Please understand the technology before you complain about it. There is no such thing as NACS-to-CCS adapter currently. If there was it would do no good at a AC charging station.

stetrain 3y ago
The confusion is kind of understandable with the multiple overlapping standards. They were really talking about a Tesla/NACs to J1772 adapter, which do exist and can be used at Tesla destination chargers.
- mypgovroom 3y ago
  No shit sherlock
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

ShakataGaNai 3y ago

> Installing NEMA 14-50 outlets everywhere could put the EV revolution on the road sooner rather than later. No. No it won't. It's helpful TODAY for homes and office buildings and hotels. Destinations. But as the author said himself, it was limited to below 10kw/hr. That means your average Tesla will require roughly 7 hours for a full charge, or 20 hours for your hummer EV. It's unlikely you'll need a FULL charge, but if you're at work for 8 hours, that's not a problem. Or at home sleeping, not an issue. But for any long distance driving? No dice. We *need* fast charging. We need smart chargers that can handle multiple cars intelligently until we get to a point where battery and capacitor technology is far enough along to rival gas. The average consumer doesn't want to futz with a J1772 adapter to get free EV charging when on an errand - let alone tinker about with a dozen adapters, plug ends and whatnot. Now if someone is an EV enthusiast, no problem. They probably have all the adapters and more with them all the time (I do). At the end of the day, the 14-50 argument is a bit like saying "Everyone should carry their own fuel pump with themselves. That'd be so much easier than all these fancy gas station pumps. Just let people dangle the hose directly into the tank and pump it out themselves." Oh.. and just as dangerous.

jillesvangurp 3y ago
We need some fast charging and that's coming online as investments are ramping up rapidly. However, the vast majority of people aren't traveling anywhere close to the maximum range of their car the vast majority of the time. Meaning the vast majority of the time, all they need is a simple slow charger. Destination charging is a thing. You go shopping, you top up some kwh. You sleep at a hotel, your car charges overnight. You go to work, you plug it in in the car park. Etc. There's a massive growth in the availability of chargers like that. It's only when you are going to drive longer distances that a fast charger is nice and worth the premium price you'll likely pay for using one. Most highways have those. Some areas are still a bit under served. Basically fuel pumps require electricity to function. So any fuel station is a potentially charging point. And when double digit percentages of cars are electric, most of the surviving ones will be offering chargers. Many of course won't make it. Range anxiety is going to be a thing if you own an ICE vehicle pretty soon. Is there going to be a petrol station where I'm going? Is it still in business? Is it getting supplied? Just mocking ICE car owners here of course. Unlike an EV, you are really screwed if you go out of range of a petrol station. An EV can just plugin to whatever. Even another EV if that's needed. Mobile chargers are already a thing. The practical reality of course is that the overall number of chargers is already much higher than the number of petrol stations. And many EV owners rarely use a fast charger. For most people, fast charging is a thing they do a few times a year. Mostly they just plug in and forget about it. My parents have been driving an EV for the last half year. Fast charging is a thing my father stressed out about. I asked him the other day if he had used a fast charger yet. Answer: no. The need for that simply hasn't come up yet. The car has enough range for what they do. They've done destination charging a few times. But not fast charging. Mostly they charge at home and it's all they need. They are planning a trip to France soon (1200km drive). So, they will have to plan some charging stops. Likely that will be a mix of hotels with chargers and maybe a few tactical fast charging stops. But that will be the first time.

lowbloodsugar 3y ago

Sooo, how would you pay for this then? Or rather, how would a supplier charge you for this? Would they pay a human to flip a switch after you hand over some cash? And if they did, would some bright spark write an app to do that instead? And build some automated switching gear to turn it on and off? And then maybe thud think, hey, what if the customer forget their cable? Maybe we could have our thing have its own cable? Fuck sake.

bdcravens 3y ago
Same way you pay for gas.