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Really all residential connections in the US are 220V split phase. The nice thing about split phase is that it is easy to well... split and run two linked 110V

by somat 3y ago

Really all residential connections in the US are 220V split phase. The nice thing about split phase is that it is easy to well... split and run two linked 110V circuits, so most houses will have a few 220V items(ovens, airconditioner) and the rest wired half with phase A the other half with phase B. all of our consumer items expect this 110V As to why split phase.... I am not really sure. Really, I wish a three phase residential had become normal instead. All the advantages of split phase but now your motors don't have to suck. I have heard a three phase residential connection is common in some parts of Germany, lucky bastards. One interesting side note is how the US last mile distribution layout is different than germany. The US uses a lot more smaller transformers, really one per street. while germany uses fewer larger transformers, one per neighborhood. not sure which one is better I bet the german layout is more efficient. but I will note it is a lot easier to keep spares and change out a small transformer.

dfox 3y ago
The split phase arrangement comes from Edison's DC systems. For large installations they found out that the losses were unacceptable and solved thet by running the lighting on 220V with sets of two 110V bulbs in series, usually combined with some somewhat funky wiring scheme in order to even more reduce the required wiring cross-section (it is somewhat reminiscent of later British ring mains construction and strikingly similar to various arrangements for powering long LED strips). This is also the reason why it is somewhat common for the US commercial lighting to use 220V. Three phase for residental connection is pretty much a standard everywhere with 230/400V system. Only small flats and really small houses get single phase. This is because the 230/400V output of the larger distribution transformer is inherently threephase and this gets distributed to essentially all the points of connection and the only reason why there are single phase residental connection is that they are slightly cheaper (both in terms of fixed monthly payment for capacity and in terms of initial installation costs). While in US the input to the typical residental pole/pedestal mounted local distribution transformer is already single phase, so you cannot really get three phases without running additional wires to the substation (and probably also having you own dedicated distribution transformer) and thus in a residantal area you are simply stuck with split-phase.
- MrBuddyCasino 3y ago
  Another thing Americans miss out on - the "boost" function on modern induction stoves. Since the oven usually gets one phase and the cooking fields get two dedicated phases of the 400V lines, you can use "boost" to steal power from the other phase. Water boils even faster than in a tea kettle!
  - andersa 3y ago
    Sure would be nice to have some kind of hyper boost setting. There's a 3 phase connection, so why don't they use it? Time to heat that one pot of water with 11 kW.
    - Ekaros 3y ago
      Having 3 different inducting circuits would be hard to fit and make less even heating distribution. Also I think they would induct to each other. Also 11 kW could be dangerous with empty containers that is quite a bit of power. Like resistive heaters get red hot at lower power.
      - andersa 3y ago
        There are actually some stoves out there that can use two phases for one large pot, reaching 7.2kW. For example, Miele stoves with the "PowerFlex" feature do this (that is quite the big brain name given the context). Since it is possible to do for two phases, why wouldn't it also work for 3? More power!
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - dtgriscom 3y ago
      More power! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBNPAJLhKZ4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBNPAJLhKZ4
  - Kirby64 3y ago
    What do you mean? Comparing a UK Bosch induction hob with a US one, they both seem to offer roughly 2.5kW of power in normal mode, and both offers a "boost" functionality that boosts the output temporarily to 3.6kW. Stove outlets can handle 12kW in the US... So there's plenty of power to go around. Built in outlets can go even higher, with 240V/60A being somewhat common for larger appliances.
jhoechtl 3y ago
> Really all residential connections in the US are 220V split phase Really all modern residential connections in Europe are 400V three phase electric power, capable to immediately power an electric motor without the need of capacitors. No matter how you put it, the US residential power grid is conceptionally lagging.
- dghlsakjg 3y ago
  You do realize that the grid runs at a completely different voltage than what is actually delivered to standard residential service, right? It is entirely possible to get three phase, high-voltage power in North America, it just isn't run to individual houses unless specifically requested.
  - kukkamario 3y ago
    400V three phase is wired to all houses at least here in Finland. All 3 phases are wired to the electric box and then that splits phases to normal sockets and for lighting etc. Ovens use three phases and detached houses usually have separate 3-phase plugs outside for running eg. heavy construction tools, like cement mixer and such. Oh right and sauna stove also needs all 3 phases obviously. Even apartments have that full 3-phases, but just for plugging in the oven and the sauna stove.
    - chris_va 3y ago
      There really isn't a huge advantage for 3 phase unless you are doing high-power DC rectification or trying to run a motor. The US grid is basically 3-phase everywhere, but it's neither needed nor cost-effective to run it into the home. Now, the 400V part is different. That would require less copper (but with a safety cost).
      - pangolinja 3y ago
        [flagged]
pacaro 3y ago
> but I will note it is a lot easier to keep spares and change out a small transformer. In my neighborhood, about once a year there's a loud pop, or quiet bang, and a bunch of houses lose power. The electric company will fix it pretty quickly. I think that it's performing selection pressure on the unlicensed squirrel electrician population.
- dylan604 3y ago
  Growing up in the sticks, I'm pretty sure there was an unlicensed trade school for squirrels in the area. Pretty much once a year, we'd need a replaced transformer from one of these unlicensed squirrel electricians. I never charted the timing of the year this would happen, but now I wonder if aligned with the start of a new class.
  - kefabean 3y ago
    Here in the UK I think some of those unlicensed squirrel electricians are beginning to retain in fibre broadband installations. My neighbour was ‘disconnected’ last week.
    - dylan604 3y ago
      The next time a friendly representative from the international brotherhood squirrel electrical (IBSE) union stops by to discuss joining their service protection plan, they should reconsider. "This a real nice connection you have here. It'd be shame if something were to happen to it" Edit: or would that be the Free Mesons
- Spooky23 3y ago
  Depending on where you live, they age out too. The one behind my house exploded a year or two ago. It was manufactured in 1959!
- kelnos 3y ago
  I was a little surprised that my neighborhood must have some redundancy. A year or so ago a transformer on a pole two doors down from us popped, and our power actually didn't go out.
2143 3y ago
> I have heard a three phase residential connection is common in some parts of Germany Over here (large country in South Asia) it's three phase by default. You can get single phase upon request, provided it's a really really small house, shop etc.
- yakubin 3y ago
  > large country in South Asia It sounds like a crossword puzzle. :)
Mvandenbergh 3y ago
The US also uses a different primary network configuration, typically running a three-phase network as main primary with single phase primary laterals. The pole-mount single-phase transformers then turn this single-phase into split-phase LV for consumer use. One consequence of this is that adding three-phase to a property that doesn't have it already is really hard - you need to upgrade the LV service connection, the transformer, and the MV lateral (since the MV lateral is only a single phase). Compare that to the European system which has three-phase distribution transformers and then runs three-phase LV past every property. In some places like Germany, the standard is to provide three-phase to every property, in others like the UK, standard is single phase service connection but... it's easy to add three phase since the other two phases are only a few metres away, I understand the Dutch standard is to run all three phases to the property but only connect as a standard (you have to pay for the upgrade). I think in both cases, for urban and suburban areas it is standard to run the MV feeder as a normally open ring so that in case of a fault in the primary, parts of the system can be run from the other end of the ring by remotely operated automatic breakers. What I don't know is whether US systems do that at the level of the main primary only or also on the laterals.
mschuster91 3y ago
> I have heard a three phase residential connection is common in some parts of Germany, lucky bastards. German here. Virtually all houses built after the 60s will have at least 3x63A @ 230V (L-N) / 400V (L1-L2/L2-L3/L3-L1) AC. Individual flats/apartments/studios from before the 90s will usually have a single phase 32-40A uplink, so in a 12-unit house you'll have four flats wired to L1, four to L2, and the last four to L3 to ensure even load across the phases. More recent builds that don't have gas stoves any more will have a 3x40 connection to allow for powerful electric stoves and ovens.
- askvictor 3y ago
  Nice over-provisioning; I doubt the gas shortage or electric cars were on the radar when 3 phase became the norm... How are loads balanced to phases in a standalone house?
  - mschuster91 3y ago
    Usually the circuit breakers are sequentially assigned to phases with wiring blocks [1]. In the end load more or less averages out across all the individual grid users. [1] https://www.zaehlerschrank24.de/phasenschiene-kdn363f-3-polig-n.html https://www.zaehlerschrank24.de/phasenschiene-kdn363f-3-poli...
dehrmann 3y ago
Could I run a standard computer PSU of 220V split-phase?
- zeroonetwothree 3y ago
  At current rates of ballooning power requirements we will soon have to
  - mrguyorama 3y ago
    American circuits are designed to support a constant 15amp load, meaning you get 1500 ish watts. One 4090 overclocked and one high end Intel CPU overclocked, plus the cooling for all that, plus other parts, gets you uncomfortably close to that. My hope is that this limit forces the computer industry to put at least one cycle into actual efficiency instead of just promising a node shrink will magically fix things, since we only have a few of those left really. I shouldn't need to run a damn space heater to play a stupid video game. At this rate, you have to think about how much video game you plan to play in your electricity budget!
    - hajile 3y ago
      You can increase wire size a little and run 20 amps without much trouble.
      - sleepybrett 3y ago
        Yes but most of your house's power outlets are sitting behind a 15amp fuse.
    - hot_gril 3y ago
      Most video games don't require high-end gaming PCs, though.
    - sitharus 3y ago
      American circuits are rated to _12_ amps continuous load, peak of 15 amps (see https://diy.stackexchange.com/questions/72733/what-is-the-maximum-load-for-each-of-the-standard-us-120v-electrical-outlets https://diy.stackexchange.com/questions/72733/what-is-the-ma...) Contrast this to my house in NZ where each circuit is rated to 20 amps continuous and supplies a double socket rated to 10 amps continuous per socket at 230V (nominal). I can easily draw 2.3kW from a standard socket for 24 hours and have no issues. This is really handy in a country that doesn’t believe in central heating…
elzbardico 3y ago
EDIT: I stand corrected by the comments below. Readers Ignore most of what I said on this comment. I was mistaken. -------------------------------------- You have some misunderstandings in your comment. Unless it is a very old construction or a smaller home, houses in the US as well as most of americas are provided with one or more phases derived from the secondary of a step-down transformer in Y configuration (3-phase, 1-neutral => 4 wires). So, for a small apartment, maybe you'll get a single phase wire plus the neutral, or more commonly 2-phase wires plus neutral, up to the full 3 phase wires plus neutral. The phases are usually 220V between then and 120 between any individual phase and the neutral connector. Europeans don't have this convenience because the step-down transformers give homes 3 phases in a delta configuration (so, 3 phase wires, no neutral wire), so, they only have the 220V between any two-phases. Also, split and wall ar-conditioning systems are almost universally bi-polar with a capacitor, in Europe, Asia, or the Americas. As well as most refrigerators, freezers and other similar appliances. In the past we used to have driers that would be multi-polar, but it was never very common. It is more usual to have tri-phase motors in bigger motors, like those used in central AC units. And HVAC systems in the US accordingly will usually require an upgrade if your home is not wired with 3-phase plus neutral, unless it is a small HVAC. Electrical vehicle charges also usually require 3-phase. People are confusing what they have the electric outlets inside their homes with what gets from the street into the distribution panel in the house. Most power outlets inside a house are bi-polar connectors (so, in europe, they can only be 220 phase-to-phase, and in the US and most of the American continent, they can be either 220 phase-to-phase or 110 V phase-to-neutral. The third connector in a domestic outlet is usually the ground, not another phase or the neutral. The three-phases are usually split between different circuits at home, trying to ensure that the load is somewhat evenly split, but at the outlets, you'll have either phase-phase, or phase-neutral, and this is the same in Europe or America, but the americans have the flexibility to have phase-neutral dipole with half the voltage that europeans don't have. Regarding having smaller step down transformers close to homes instead of a single giant unit, we need to remember that keeping the low-tension wires short is more efficient, and this is achieved by having the transformers closer to consumers, instead of having a giant transformer distant from the consumers. I am not an American, and I know that a lot of things in America could be more efficient, but power distribution to residences is probably not something were europe have an edge over the US.
user2342 3y ago
> I have heard a three phase residential connection is common in some parts of Germany, lucky bastards. Not some parts. It's common in all parts of Germany - and I think even common on the whole EU.
melenaboija 3y ago
> The US uses a lot more smaller transformers, really one per street. while germany uses fewer larger transformers I am from Spain and living in the US and something that was shocking to me about it is that here, at least where I lived, these last transformers are hanging from poles and every now and then I can hear an explosion and it is one of them blowing up. I have no idea but, maybe being exposed like they are here in the US makes them more vulnerable to weather conditions and that makes them explode? Or maybe it simply is that in Spain they also explode but the fact of not being that close to residences makes it harder to hear it.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- bluGill 3y ago
  Transformer explosions are rare. Unless you can produce statistics saying otherwise it is safe to assume they happen as often in both countries (per something, the US obvious has far more transformers given larger population and area, and thus should have more total)
  - TheCleric 3y ago
    Yeah near me they rarely ever pop, and when they do it's almost always lightning related.
    - Symbiote 3y ago
      "Rarely ever" and "when they do" suggests this happens more often than "I've never heard of this as a thing" here in Europe. With higher voltages, fewer transformers are needed. Power lines are buried, and transformers are generally larger and not exposed to weather.
      - melenaboija 3y ago
        That was exactly my point, I have never heard that in Europe and I would say at least a dozen of them in US in a decade. Probably because there are more of them and exposed. I am not criticizing the infrastructure but as European (and this is something others told me) it feels weird to see transformers hanging from poles and every now and then blowing up. And I mentioned the weather because my experience is that it usually happens during storms, it might be lightnings or tree branches but that is what I have seen.
linsomniac 3y ago
I thought residential US service was 240V split phase with two 120V legs. I've heard for some wet construction locations they'll set up 120V split phase with two 60V legs, to keep the potential to ground smaller.
- bootlooped 3y ago
  When talking about the voltage of US residential service, and the devices that use it, 240 and 220, and 120 and 110 are functionally the same. The house theoretically has 240v and 120v power, but voltage may sag throughout the home's wiring, and some outlets will a real voltage reading lower than 240/120.
amluto 3y ago
How many residential devices actually ought to contain a three-phase motor running at fixed frequency? (And I mean now, in 2023, not in 1990.) I can think of three, sort of: 1. A well pump, pumping from a high-producing well, into a tank or pond at the surface, where the pump is sized to efficiently pump somewhat less than the well’s production. 2. A pool or pond pump which, by some miracle, has been correctly sized for the system, and which, by some other miracle, is more appropriate in the application in question than an Intelliflo VSF or similar pump. 3. HVAC fans. But these are usually pretty small, and better systems usually use ECM motors.
- Corrado 3y ago
  There are tons of people who have garages with table saws, air compressors, etc. that would benefit from 3 phase power.
  - ajross 3y ago
    I think that's overselling. I mean, sure, 3 phase is better for motors and you can get more power a little more efficiently and with less vibration to deal with in the mechanical design. And that's valuable. But come on, US workshop afficionados are doing just fine. No one is crying in their shop wishing for the blissful experience of a Danish band saw or whatever. It's better. It's not that much better. What actually wins this fight is on the other side. A two-connector polarized NEMA 1-15 plug is a tiny, convenient, easy to use form factor that will still deliver 1400W. The experience of a normal consumer plugging in their normal junk in the US is just plain superior to the poor folks across the oceans charging their devices with BS1363 connectors that are almost bigger than the phones. And don't even get me started on Europlug.
    - shrx 3y ago
      Every time I try to charge something from a US socket the charger cable will frequently fall out of the socket due to poor design tolerances. Never an issue with EU sockets.
dusted 3y ago
In Denmark, most homes have 3 phases of 240 volts, along with neutral. (and protective ground, of course) More power in less copper. Most items do fine with 240 volts, but high-power items like ovens and electric cars can use two or three. Also, we have the CEE 5P plugs, which look awesome and allow you to draw a lot of juice from a single point.
no-reply 3y ago
Three phase residential connection is also common in India (at least some bigger cities).
mjan22640 3y ago
> I have heard a three phase residential connection is common in some parts of Germany, lucky bastards. Czech Republic switched to 3 phase 380V in 1919. I guess the transition DC -> 110V AC -> 3 phase ~400V went quick everywhere in the world, just in US they did not do the last step.
_trampeltier 3y ago
The cool thing is in Switzerland with the T15 / T25 plug you can use from a small 230V LN plug, 230V LNPE plug or a 3x400V 3LNPE plug. You see this often in workshops. I think this is unique in the world.[1] Also the 3xT13, 3 plugs where everywhere else in the world is just one plug. [2] [1] https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SN_441011 https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SN_441011 [2] https://hager.com/de-ch/katalog/produkt/wh22730700k-ka-eb-stdo-3xt13-rundkabel-l1 https://hager.com/de-ch/katalog/produkt/wh22730700k-ka-eb-st...
Woozzy 3y ago
I suppose in nearly all of Belgium 3 phase + N (230/400V) is common. You have to pay extra but it's available.
31carmichael 3y ago
I've worked at utilities with both systems. The UK system, which also has three phases to most every customer, is way better. And I'm an american power engineer. By the way, the US nominal voltage is 120 volts. I don't know why everyone refers to 110 Volts. You are correct about the last mile. Since single phase is distributed so often, the utility distribution engineer has a lot more work to balance things. In the UK and other networks, there is no single phase distribution.

by somat 3y ago

dfox 3y ago

The split phase arrangement comes from Edison's DC systems. For large installations they found out that the losses were unacceptable and solved thet by running the lighting on 220V with sets of two 110V bulbs in series, usually combined with some somewhat funky wiring scheme in order to even more reduce the required wiring cross-section (it is somewhat reminiscent of later British ring mains construction and strikingly similar to various arrangements for powering long LED strips). This is also the reason why it is somewhat common for the US commercial lighting to use 220V. Three phase for residental connection is pretty much a standard everywhere with 230/400V system. Only small flats and really small houses get single phase. This is because the 230/400V output of the larger distribution transformer is inherently threephase and this gets distributed to essentially all the points of connection and the only reason why there are single phase residental connection is that they are slightly cheaper (both in terms of fixed monthly payment for capacity and in terms of initial installation costs). While in US the input to the typical residental pole/pedestal mounted local distribution transformer is already single phase, so you cannot really get three phases without running additional wires to the substation (and probably also having you own dedicated distribution transformer) and thus in a residantal area you are simply stuck with split-phase.

MrBuddyCasino 3y ago
Another thing Americans miss out on - the "boost" function on modern induction stoves. Since the oven usually gets one phase and the cooking fields get two dedicated phases of the 400V lines, you can use "boost" to steal power from the other phase. Water boils even faster than in a tea kettle!
- andersa 3y ago
  Sure would be nice to have some kind of hyper boost setting. There's a 3 phase connection, so why don't they use it? Time to heat that one pot of water with 11 kW.
  - Ekaros 3y ago
    Having 3 different inducting circuits would be hard to fit and make less even heating distribution. Also I think they would induct to each other. Also 11 kW could be dangerous with empty containers that is quite a bit of power. Like resistive heaters get red hot at lower power.
    - andersa 3y ago
      There are actually some stoves out there that can use two phases for one large pot, reaching 7.2kW. For example, Miele stoves with the "PowerFlex" feature do this (that is quite the big brain name given the context). Since it is possible to do for two phases, why wouldn't it also work for 3? More power!
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - dtgriscom 3y ago
    More power! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBNPAJLhKZ4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBNPAJLhKZ4
- Kirby64 3y ago
  What do you mean? Comparing a UK Bosch induction hob with a US one, they both seem to offer roughly 2.5kW of power in normal mode, and both offers a "boost" functionality that boosts the output temporarily to 3.6kW. Stove outlets can handle 12kW in the US... So there's plenty of power to go around. Built in outlets can go even higher, with 240V/60A being somewhat common for larger appliances.

jhoechtl 3y ago

> Really all residential connections in the US are 220V split phase Really all modern residential connections in Europe are 400V three phase electric power, capable to immediately power an electric motor without the need of capacitors. No matter how you put it, the US residential power grid is conceptionally lagging.

dghlsakjg 3y ago
You do realize that the grid runs at a completely different voltage than what is actually delivered to standard residential service, right? It is entirely possible to get three phase, high-voltage power in North America, it just isn't run to individual houses unless specifically requested.
- kukkamario 3y ago
  400V three phase is wired to all houses at least here in Finland. All 3 phases are wired to the electric box and then that splits phases to normal sockets and for lighting etc. Ovens use three phases and detached houses usually have separate 3-phase plugs outside for running eg. heavy construction tools, like cement mixer and such. Oh right and sauna stove also needs all 3 phases obviously. Even apartments have that full 3-phases, but just for plugging in the oven and the sauna stove.
  - chris_va 3y ago
    There really isn't a huge advantage for 3 phase unless you are doing high-power DC rectification or trying to run a motor. The US grid is basically 3-phase everywhere, but it's neither needed nor cost-effective to run it into the home. Now, the 400V part is different. That would require less copper (but with a safety cost).
    - pangolinja 3y ago
      [flagged]

pacaro 3y ago

> but I will note it is a lot easier to keep spares and change out a small transformer. In my neighborhood, about once a year there's a loud pop, or quiet bang, and a bunch of houses lose power. The electric company will fix it pretty quickly. I think that it's performing selection pressure on the unlicensed squirrel electrician population.

dylan604 3y ago
Growing up in the sticks, I'm pretty sure there was an unlicensed trade school for squirrels in the area. Pretty much once a year, we'd need a replaced transformer from one of these unlicensed squirrel electricians. I never charted the timing of the year this would happen, but now I wonder if aligned with the start of a new class.
- kefabean 3y ago
  Here in the UK I think some of those unlicensed squirrel electricians are beginning to retain in fibre broadband installations. My neighbour was ‘disconnected’ last week.
  - dylan604 3y ago
    The next time a friendly representative from the international brotherhood squirrel electrical (IBSE) union stops by to discuss joining their service protection plan, they should reconsider. "This a real nice connection you have here. It'd be shame if something were to happen to it" Edit: or would that be the Free Mesons
Spooky23 3y ago
Depending on where you live, they age out too. The one behind my house exploded a year or two ago. It was manufactured in 1959!
kelnos 3y ago
I was a little surprised that my neighborhood must have some redundancy. A year or so ago a transformer on a pole two doors down from us popped, and our power actually didn't go out.

2143 3y ago

> I have heard a three phase residential connection is common in some parts of Germany Over here (large country in South Asia) it's three phase by default. You can get single phase upon request, provided it's a really really small house, shop etc.

yakubin 3y ago
> large country in South Asia It sounds like a crossword puzzle. :)

Mvandenbergh 3y ago

The US also uses a different primary network configuration, typically running a three-phase network as main primary with single phase primary laterals. The pole-mount single-phase transformers then turn this single-phase into split-phase LV for consumer use. One consequence of this is that adding three-phase to a property that doesn't have it already is really hard - you need to upgrade the LV service connection, the transformer, and the MV lateral (since the MV lateral is only a single phase). Compare that to the European system which has three-phase distribution transformers and then runs three-phase LV past every property. In some places like Germany, the standard is to provide three-phase to every property, in others like the UK, standard is single phase service connection but... it's easy to add three phase since the other two phases are only a few metres away, I understand the Dutch standard is to run all three phases to the property but only connect as a standard (you have to pay for the upgrade). I think in both cases, for urban and suburban areas it is standard to run the MV feeder as a normally open ring so that in case of a fault in the primary, parts of the system can be run from the other end of the ring by remotely operated automatic breakers. What I don't know is whether US systems do that at the level of the main primary only or also on the laterals.

mschuster91 3y ago

> I have heard a three phase residential connection is common in some parts of Germany, lucky bastards. German here. Virtually all houses built after the 60s will have at least 3x63A @ 230V (L-N) / 400V (L1-L2/L2-L3/L3-L1) AC. Individual flats/apartments/studios from before the 90s will usually have a single phase 32-40A uplink, so in a 12-unit house you'll have four flats wired to L1, four to L2, and the last four to L3 to ensure even load across the phases. More recent builds that don't have gas stoves any more will have a 3x40 connection to allow for powerful electric stoves and ovens.

askvictor 3y ago
Nice over-provisioning; I doubt the gas shortage or electric cars were on the radar when 3 phase became the norm... How are loads balanced to phases in a standalone house?
- mschuster91 3y ago
  Usually the circuit breakers are sequentially assigned to phases with wiring blocks [1]. In the end load more or less averages out across all the individual grid users. [1] https://www.zaehlerschrank24.de/phasenschiene-kdn363f-3-polig-n.html https://www.zaehlerschrank24.de/phasenschiene-kdn363f-3-poli...

dehrmann 3y ago

Could I run a standard computer PSU of 220V split-phase?

zeroonetwothree 3y ago
At current rates of ballooning power requirements we will soon have to
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  American circuits are designed to support a constant 15amp load, meaning you get 1500 ish watts. One 4090 overclocked and one high end Intel CPU overclocked, plus the cooling for all that, plus other parts, gets you uncomfortably close to that. My hope is that this limit forces the computer industry to put at least one cycle into actual efficiency instead of just promising a node shrink will magically fix things, since we only have a few of those left really. I shouldn't need to run a damn space heater to play a stupid video game. At this rate, you have to think about how much video game you plan to play in your electricity budget!
  - hajile 3y ago
    You can increase wire size a little and run 20 amps without much trouble.
    - sleepybrett 3y ago
      Yes but most of your house's power outlets are sitting behind a 15amp fuse.
  - hot_gril 3y ago
    Most video games don't require high-end gaming PCs, though.
  - sitharus 3y ago
    American circuits are rated to _12_ amps continuous load, peak of 15 amps (see https://diy.stackexchange.com/questions/72733/what-is-the-maximum-load-for-each-of-the-standard-us-120v-electrical-outlets https://diy.stackexchange.com/questions/72733/what-is-the-ma...) Contrast this to my house in NZ where each circuit is rated to 20 amps continuous and supplies a double socket rated to 10 amps continuous per socket at 230V (nominal). I can easily draw 2.3kW from a standard socket for 24 hours and have no issues. This is really handy in a country that doesn’t believe in central heating…

elzbardico 3y ago

EDIT: I stand corrected by the comments below. Readers Ignore most of what I said on this comment. I was mistaken. -------------------------------------- You have some misunderstandings in your comment. Unless it is a very old construction or a smaller home, houses in the US as well as most of americas are provided with one or more phases derived from the secondary of a step-down transformer in Y configuration (3-phase, 1-neutral => 4 wires). So, for a small apartment, maybe you'll get a single phase wire plus the neutral, or more commonly 2-phase wires plus neutral, up to the full 3 phase wires plus neutral. The phases are usually 220V between then and 120 between any individual phase and the neutral connector. Europeans don't have this convenience because the step-down transformers give homes 3 phases in a delta configuration (so, 3 phase wires, no neutral wire), so, they only have the 220V between any two-phases. Also, split and wall ar-conditioning systems are almost universally bi-polar with a capacitor, in Europe, Asia, or the Americas. As well as most refrigerators, freezers and other similar appliances. In the past we used to have driers that would be multi-polar, but it was never very common. It is more usual to have tri-phase motors in bigger motors, like those used in central AC units. And HVAC systems in the US accordingly will usually require an upgrade if your home is not wired with 3-phase plus neutral, unless it is a small HVAC. Electrical vehicle charges also usually require 3-phase. People are confusing what they have the electric outlets inside their homes with what gets from the street into the distribution panel in the house. Most power outlets inside a house are bi-polar connectors (so, in europe, they can only be 220 phase-to-phase, and in the US and most of the American continent, they can be either 220 phase-to-phase or 110 V phase-to-neutral. The third connector in a domestic outlet is usually the ground, not another phase or the neutral. The three-phases are usually split between different circuits at home, trying to ensure that the load is somewhat evenly split, but at the outlets, you'll have either phase-phase, or phase-neutral, and this is the same in Europe or America, but the americans have the flexibility to have phase-neutral dipole with half the voltage that europeans don't have. Regarding having smaller step down transformers close to homes instead of a single giant unit, we need to remember that keeping the low-tension wires short is more efficient, and this is achieved by having the transformers closer to consumers, instead of having a giant transformer distant from the consumers. I am not an American, and I know that a lot of things in America could be more efficient, but power distribution to residences is probably not something were europe have an edge over the US.

user2342 3y ago

> I have heard a three phase residential connection is common in some parts of Germany, lucky bastards. Not some parts. It's common in all parts of Germany - and I think even common on the whole EU.

melenaboija 3y ago

> The US uses a lot more smaller transformers, really one per street. while germany uses fewer larger transformers I am from Spain and living in the US and something that was shocking to me about it is that here, at least where I lived, these last transformers are hanging from poles and every now and then I can hear an explosion and it is one of them blowing up. I have no idea but, maybe being exposed like they are here in the US makes them more vulnerable to weather conditions and that makes them explode? Or maybe it simply is that in Spain they also explode but the fact of not being that close to residences makes it harder to hear it.

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bluGill 3y ago
Transformer explosions are rare. Unless you can produce statistics saying otherwise it is safe to assume they happen as often in both countries (per something, the US obvious has far more transformers given larger population and area, and thus should have more total)
- TheCleric 3y ago
  Yeah near me they rarely ever pop, and when they do it's almost always lightning related.
  - Symbiote 3y ago
    "Rarely ever" and "when they do" suggests this happens more often than "I've never heard of this as a thing" here in Europe. With higher voltages, fewer transformers are needed. Power lines are buried, and transformers are generally larger and not exposed to weather.
    - melenaboija 3y ago
      That was exactly my point, I have never heard that in Europe and I would say at least a dozen of them in US in a decade. Probably because there are more of them and exposed. I am not criticizing the infrastructure but as European (and this is something others told me) it feels weird to see transformers hanging from poles and every now and then blowing up. And I mentioned the weather because my experience is that it usually happens during storms, it might be lightnings or tree branches but that is what I have seen.

linsomniac 3y ago

I thought residential US service was 240V split phase with two 120V legs. I've heard for some wet construction locations they'll set up 120V split phase with two 60V legs, to keep the potential to ground smaller.

bootlooped 3y ago
When talking about the voltage of US residential service, and the devices that use it, 240 and 220, and 120 and 110 are functionally the same. The house theoretically has 240v and 120v power, but voltage may sag throughout the home's wiring, and some outlets will a real voltage reading lower than 240/120.

amluto 3y ago

How many residential devices actually ought to contain a three-phase motor running at fixed frequency? (And I mean now, in 2023, not in 1990.) I can think of three, sort of: 1. A well pump, pumping from a high-producing well, into a tank or pond at the surface, where the pump is sized to efficiently pump somewhat less than the well’s production. 2. A pool or pond pump which, by some miracle, has been correctly sized for the system, and which, by some other miracle, is more appropriate in the application in question than an Intelliflo VSF or similar pump. 3. HVAC fans. But these are usually pretty small, and better systems usually use ECM motors.

Corrado 3y ago
There are tons of people who have garages with table saws, air compressors, etc. that would benefit from 3 phase power.
- ajross 3y ago
  I think that's overselling. I mean, sure, 3 phase is better for motors and you can get more power a little more efficiently and with less vibration to deal with in the mechanical design. And that's valuable. But come on, US workshop afficionados are doing just fine. No one is crying in their shop wishing for the blissful experience of a Danish band saw or whatever. It's better. It's not that much better. What actually wins this fight is on the other side. A two-connector polarized NEMA 1-15 plug is a tiny, convenient, easy to use form factor that will still deliver 1400W. The experience of a normal consumer plugging in their normal junk in the US is just plain superior to the poor folks across the oceans charging their devices with BS1363 connectors that are almost bigger than the phones. And don't even get me started on Europlug.
  - shrx 3y ago
    Every time I try to charge something from a US socket the charger cable will frequently fall out of the socket due to poor design tolerances. Never an issue with EU sockets.

dusted 3y ago

In Denmark, most homes have 3 phases of 240 volts, along with neutral. (and protective ground, of course) More power in less copper. Most items do fine with 240 volts, but high-power items like ovens and electric cars can use two or three. Also, we have the CEE 5P plugs, which look awesome and allow you to draw a lot of juice from a single point.

no-reply 3y ago

Three phase residential connection is also common in India (at least some bigger cities).

mjan22640 3y ago

> I have heard a three phase residential connection is common in some parts of Germany, lucky bastards. Czech Republic switched to 3 phase 380V in 1919. I guess the transition DC -> 110V AC -> 3 phase ~400V went quick everywhere in the world, just in US they did not do the last step.

_trampeltier 3y ago

The cool thing is in Switzerland with the T15 / T25 plug you can use from a small 230V LN plug, 230V LNPE plug or a 3x400V 3LNPE plug. You see this often in workshops. I think this is unique in the world.[1] Also the 3xT13, 3 plugs where everywhere else in the world is just one plug. [2] [1] https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SN_441011 https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SN_441011 [2] https://hager.com/de-ch/katalog/produkt/wh22730700k-ka-eb-stdo-3xt13-rundkabel-l1 https://hager.com/de-ch/katalog/produkt/wh22730700k-ka-eb-st...

Woozzy 3y ago

I suppose in nearly all of Belgium 3 phase + N (230/400V) is common. You have to pay extra but it's available.

31carmichael 3y ago

I've worked at utilities with both systems. The UK system, which also has three phases to most every customer, is way better. And I'm an american power engineer. By the way, the US nominal voltage is 120 volts. I don't know why everyone refers to 110 Volts. You are correct about the last mile. Since single phase is distributed so often, the utility distribution engineer has a lot more work to balance things. In the UK and other networks, there is no single phase distribution.