10 ms·

Ukraine uses Australian drones made of cardboard

137 points by rmason 3y ago

ChumpGPT 3y ago
The Russians were complaining that it is in most cases invisible to Radar and needs to be shot down by gunfire. It can also carry an explosive payload of 4-5 Kg. Apparently 3 out of 16 were shot down with machine gun fire using tracers but 13 got through to destroy several SU-30 and MIG aircraft along with several air defense and radar complexes at a Russian airbase in the Kursk Region.
- rjzzleep 3y ago
  Source please? The Russians complained? Or the Ukrainians reported that the Russians complained?
  - tguvot 3y ago
    For people who follow "this thing", its seriously hard to "find again" sources due to amount of information that created every day. but just for you: https://t.me/fighter_bomber/13797 https://t.me/fighter_bomber/13797 (not sure where from op got his news)
  - endchanted 3y ago
    Sure, check Fighterbomber's TG
  - ChumpGPT 3y ago
    Russian Military blogger on Telegram. He spoke about the attack and the challenges, Ukraine said that 13 of the 16 made it to the intended targets. There will be video or satellite imagery released at some point. I tend to believe these reports since I understand who is providing the targeting information with precise coordinates and information. You can believe what you like.
    - rjzzleep 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - KeplerBoy 3y ago
        it's called fog of war for a reason. You shouldn't take anything at face value.
      - ChumpGPT 3y ago
        This was about the Australian drone and it's possible potential as an extremely cheap and powerful weapon. The reason it's even in the news is because they were used recently and the imagery of a downed drone and attack location was released by the Russians, not the Ukrainians. Somehow your response has turned into a tirade against Ukraine and their claims and every other grievance you have for Ukraine.
        rjzzleep 3y ago
        This is about accountability. When a person constantly lies you cannot just take their claims at face value. All the things I wrote were official statements from Ukrainian government officials including the Ukrainian MoD. As such there is currently no data corroborating the claims that the Australian drone is as good as it claims. What we do know so far is that the Geran(Shahed) and the Lancets have shown to be quite deadly for the reasons mentioned above. Although the Geran is not a loitering munition. It is entirely possible that the Australian drone is performing as well, but as of now there is no such data. The last drone that was seen in the battlefields from the Ukrainian side was the switchblade and it was orders of magnitude more expensive than the Australian one and performed abysmal. One thing to note here is that the Russians according to most western publications[1] have been quite successful at jamming GPS guided munition, so even if it is as successful as the Ukrainians claim it will probably not be a game changer in this conflict. [1] https://www.economist.com/special-report/2023/07/03/the-latest-in-the-battle-of-jamming-with-electronic-beams https://www.economist.com/special-report/2023/07/03/the-late...
  - nradov 3y ago
    There was an unconfirmed report today that Ukrainian forces used drones to destroy several Russian aircraft at the Kursk airbase. I wouldn't take it seriously until we see something from an independent source, or satellite imagery. https://news.yahoo.com/russia-kursk-airbase-suffers-major-165100378.html https://news.yahoo.com/russia-kursk-airbase-suffers-major-16...
- jncfhnb 3y ago
  This is not specific to these specific cardboard drones. These cardboard ones are cool but hardly a game changer
asimpleusecase 3y ago
I would expect Ukraine could learn how to produce their own in a couple of weeks. Have patterns and a press to cut out the pieces and mass produce them. The effect of thousands of these would be similar to massive volleys of arrows in medevil battle, only in this case each has targeting and 5kg warhead
- _joel 3y ago
  The Ukranian drone industry has rocketed (no pun intended) since the invasion. I'd highly recommend checking out this video[1] from the FT on the tech industry that has popped up around this, inside Ukraine itself. Just such a travesty that they need to do this at all. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voPCPhzmL10 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voPCPhzmL10
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    The kind of know-how they are building up there is making them a force to be reckoned with, it is one of those if-it-doesn't-kill-you-it-will-make-you-stronger things. Obviously Russia can do anything that Ukraine can do but Ukraine has a very large and wealthy contingent of the world behind them and they are motivated far beyond the Russians. I really hope they will be able to force some kind of breakthrough to the point that even Putin realizes that giving up is the better outcome.
    - thriftwy 3y ago
      Russians are motivated by the fact that several million holders of Russian citizenship are living in the area that Ukraine is set to reconquer. Most of whose did not live under Ukrainian control for a decade now.
      - jncfhnb 3y ago
        Russia doesn’t give a shit about those people.
      - tjrgergw 3y ago
dontwearitout 3y ago
"You will live to see man-made horrors beyond your comprehension." - Tesla The prospect of low cost swarms of AI enabled drones terrifies me. If you've watched any drone combat footage from Ukraine you know it's just around the corner, and this is another step in that direction.
- meheleventyone 3y ago
  This capability is mostly open source already isn’t it? Granted the AI isn’t fancy but it’d be reasonably trivial to adapt some foamboard or cardboard designs to carry a small payload and turn them into GPS guided bombs. Probably doesn’t happen often more due to it being substantially easier to do what people inclined towards this action want another way.
  - dontwearitout 3y ago
    Yes, a software stack to turn these drones into autonomous area denial or autonomous trench clearing tools could be readily cobbled together using mostly open source components. It would be such a tide changer that it's only a matter of time, and god help the poor souls on the front lines.
  - hackerlight 3y ago
    If we have made an area that can't be traversed by humans on either side, doesn't this benefit the defenders the most?
- r00fus 3y ago
  Exactly this is our future: https://youtu.be/TlO2gcs1YvM?si=bp-PL5tIEku_HXfO https://youtu.be/TlO2gcs1YvM?si=bp-PL5tIEku_HXfO
  - warning26 3y ago
    I find this movie fascinating -- I wonder how far we are from building the hypothetical autonomous drone swarms in the movie.
piker 3y ago
Seems like another example of the importance of battery improvements. With enough thrust-to-weight I've heard you can get a Buick to fly. Thus, some of the marginal aerodynamic optimizations that necessitate more complicated builds maybe can be dispensed with.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  Single-use also dramatically expands the envelope of workable chemistries.
  - barrkel 3y ago
    Indeed, zinc air batteries (used in hearing aids) are more energy dense than lithium ion, and are cheap. Lithium air would be much better again (close to gasoline) but a harder material to work with, and more expensive.
    - dredmorbius 3y ago
      Metal-air batteries have the somewhat unusual property of gaining mass as they discharge (they fix oxygen from the air). How significant that mass gain is I'm uncertain of, but it confounds the diminished-mass-with-flight logic of fuel-based powerplants.
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      In one-way drones for once the less nice properties of Lithium Ion batteries would be an advantage.
  - dredmorbius 3y ago
    One-way travel also at least doubles effective range, which increases the targetable area by a the square. For battery-powered craft, where there's no appreciable reduction in propellent mass over the course of the flight, this is a direct scaling. For fuel-based craft (which I'm surprised are not more heavily used), the fuel mass falls as it's consumed, such that the effective net mass is somewhat less than 1/2 the total launch fuel load (less fuel mass -> less lift and drag load). In the extreme case, ballistic missiles consume virtually their entire fuel load early in the flight ("boost phase"). Cruise missiles / drones might fly to a higher altitude and glide to their targets. Even battery-powered drones might jettison their primary battery (retaining a small navigation power source) and glide to targets by first climbing to a high altitude. Another option is solar-powered (or assisted) drones, which for small payloads (most especially surveillance, though directed weapons / shaped charges would be another option) could achieve long ranges, high loiter times, or both.
ourmandave 3y ago
Easy construction; you simply need to remove the various parts from the cardboard plate with a knife and then build the drone using glue, tape and some rubber bands. It's like reading a MacGyver script.
- vntx 3y ago
  The MacGyver military-industrial complex is something you just have to see to believe. Cheap Macguyver warfare makes a lot of sense economically for an economy like Ukraine’s. Meanwhile in the US: On top of the $22.4 billion it cost in research and development, the USS Zumwalt, one of three Zumwalt destroyer class ships, cost over $4 billion to create….Military Watch Magazine reported issues back in 2018, saying that the USS Zumwalt “suffered from poorly functioning weapons, stalling engines and an underperformance in their stealth capabilities, among other shortcomings.” Sometimes, worse is better. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zumwalt-class_destroyer#:~:text=Fredenburg%20went%20on%20to%20detail,Zumwalt%20is%20an%20unmitigated%20disaster https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zumwalt-class_destroyer#:~:t.... https://veteranlife.com/military-news/uss-zumwalt/ https://veteranlife.com/military-news/uss-zumwalt/
  - saiya-jin 3y ago
    Well, low hanging fruit is sometimes hanging very low, but if you want to move past that and reach higher, it gets exponentially harder and thus more expensive. Also things like reliability, durability under various extreme conditions, safety for humans involved and so on can escalate times and prices dramatically, but are not massive concerns in existential situation Ukraine currently is in due to russia's war. US is basically never aiming so low with new tech they want for its military, it wants brilliant solutions above everybody else, and has money to burn on it. And from time to time, when looking back those investments were well worth even with flops included. US global hegemony is not something that US wants to lose due to few hundreds billions not allocated as effectively as possible.
  - dredmorbius 3y ago
    There's a classic 1951 science-fiction short story by Arthur C. Clarke, "Superiority" about a country that's developing an ultimate weapon, except that specifications and costs keep expanding to the point that only one can be afforded, and that of course comes too late. Mentioned here on SE: <https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/237557/science-fiction-story-involving-defeat-of-humans-because-we-kept-waiting-for-adv https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/237557/science-fic...> And of course Wikipedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superiority_(short_story) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superiority_(short_story)>. ISFDB: <https://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?40897 https://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?40897> It's published in Expedition to Earth (1953): <https://archive.org/details/expeditiontoeart0000arth/page/90/mode/2up?q=superiority https://archive.org/details/expeditiontoeart0000arth/page/90...>
leonidasv 3y ago
The website seems to have been hugged to death. WebArchive has a copy, tho: https://web.archive.org/web/20230827191921/https://aircosmosinternational.com/article/ukraine-uses-australian-drones-made-of-cardboard-3664 https://web.archive.org/web/20230827191921/https://aircosmos...
kramerger 3y ago
What kind of engine and batteries do these sort of drones use?
- jacquesm 3y ago
  Lithium Ion (LiPo) and brushless DC.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
mcphage 3y ago
Under negative points: > Declining reusability due to the stress on the structure: the cardboard will not be strong enough to make many flights. Which is no doubt absolutely true—but on the other hand, the cardboard isn't the valuable part of the drone. You could have a stockpile of the cardboard (which they claim is a little larger than a pizza box), and swap out the motor and electronics if a unit survives long enough that the cardboard starts to fail.
- ledauphin 3y ago
  yeah, this struck me as strange too. the ongoing maintenance on long-lasting industrially-manufactured drones might well cost more than rebuilding a cardboard one every few weeks.
aaron695 3y ago
[dead]
71a54xd 3y ago
[flagged]
- dralley 3y ago
  1) That's for the Ukrainian people to decide and nobody else. If the Ukrainians want to fight then we should help them do so. 2) These were targets on a military airbase. 3) They had an "armistice" for 8 years. It was a joke to begin with, which provided no real guarantees (as Russia continued to lie that they had nothing to do with the conflict throughout and as such they didn't need to agree to anything), signed at the point of a gun, was often ignored by both sides, and was shattered by a full scale Russian invasion 4) Ukraine has no reason to believe that any new "armistice" will lead to different outcomes than the last one - that is, Russia will maintain it a little while and then invade from a stronger starting position than the last time. Russia ignored the Budapest Memorandum, both Minsk agreements, the "grain deal" and just this week we saw what happened to Prigozhin. Any deal with Putin will last exactly as long as it takes for him to feel that he would benefit from breaking it.
  - thriftwy 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - genman 3y ago
      Reductio ad absurdum.
    - nradov 3y ago
      Read the actual text of the Budapest memorandum. It was not a formal security treaty and didn't require the other signatories (UK and USA) to go to war to defend Ukraine. It merely required them to bring any violations to the UN Security Council, which they have already done. https://treaties.un.org/Pages/showDetails.aspx?objid=0800000280401fbb https://treaties.un.org/Pages/showDetails.aspx?objid=0800000...
    - dralley 3y ago
      >I doubt that anybody would think Budapest memorandum would cause Russia defending Ukraine from itself, with a straight face. Pray tell, where did the little green men come from?
Animats 3y ago
Ukraine has been going through about 10,000 drones a month. This should up the rate of production. No rear areas. No safe fire bases. No Green Zone. Another major change to war.
- xenator 3y ago
  Another weapon that will be used by both sides. Who can stop Russians to produce the same drones?
  - The_Colonel 3y ago
    The lack of engines for one. So far they've been unable to match the Ukrainian drone production, the trend I assume will continue.
cultofmetatron 3y ago
minor nitpick but why would you paint a drone in jungle camo? seems like it would be easier to spot that way given that its very easy to see in the sky
- qup 3y ago
  You don't see the top of the drone from the ground. The bottom is painted differently.
- yeeeloit 3y ago
  Assume that the belly is painted sky colours (white/blue) and top is painted land colours.
aaomidi 3y ago
Ikea assemble your own drone when
dist-epoch 3y ago
Also in Ukraine I've seen recently a bigger plane like drone carrying 4 DJI copter drones that it can drop. So a drone-carrier.
- sinkwool 3y ago
  Do you have any source pls? Who controls the DJI copter drones? Does the plane act as a relay for the radio signals?
taspeotis 3y ago
But the front will fall off if you use cardboard or cardboard derivatives?
- resolutebat 3y ago
  Yeah, not sure this one is even going to uphold the minimum crew requirements. For non-Australian readers: https://youtu.be/3m5qxZm_JqM?feature=shared https://youtu.be/3m5qxZm_JqM?feature=shared
kgilpin 3y ago
Make your own! https://store.flitetest.com/ft-simple-cub-mkr2/ https://store.flitetest.com/ft-simple-cub-mkr2/ This one’s technically foam, but it’s a very cardboardy foam. With a little bit of carbon fiber reinforcement (provided) it’s surprisingly durable and MUCH simpler and easier to build that a balsa or fiberglass airplane. After building and flying one of these, I can certainly believe that cardboard/foam construction is great for a “disposable” (single use) airplane or even for a couple of missions - knowing that the life span will be short.
- function_seven 3y ago
  Oh man, Flitetest. About 10 years ago I got really into building those planes. Never bought any kits, just used their free plans to cut my own foam boards. I did buy some components from them; usually a bulkhead or landing gear setup. My favorite one was the F-22 replica (https://store.flitetest.com/ft-22-mkr2/ https://store.flitetest.com/ft-22-mkr2/). With the right motor and prop—and by abusing the discharge rate on the battery—I think I got that jet screaming at ~60mph. Not sure what the precise speed was, but it was definitely in the “should I be buying insurance for this?” territory. The Bloody Wonder was my favorite for aerobatics. It was easy to build, fairly tough, and easy to fly but still twitchy when you wanted it to be.
- Ancapistani 3y ago
  I've built a few like this, and have designed a handful that haven't made it out of Fusion 360 yet. I have a kit by an FPV pilot (Shelby Voll) that consists of a couple of pieces of pre-cut styrofoam, some carbon fiber rods for rigidity, and other various odds and ends. I think I paid $200 for it. I haven't built it yet, but I've flown friends' builds from the same kit and have built similar ones. It'll take about two hours to build with simple hand tools, and is probably the most durable "flying wing" design of which I'm aware. I'm mostly into FPV quadcopters, but it seems most people who fly them who get into "wings" seem to prefer them.
cam_l 3y ago
Well, this seems like a natural evolution from the cardboard tanks we used in North Africa in WW1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dummy_tank https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dummy_tank
ohm 3y ago
Here’s a video of a cardboard one from 10 years ago https://youtu.be/0stHV0s7XaU https://youtu.be/0stHV0s7XaU
tamimio 3y ago
> autonomous flight (GPS) through an interface that can be installed on an Android tablet. In case of jamming, the flight continues because the drone can locate itself according to its speed and direction. In case anyone is wondering how that works, it uses on-board IMS (Inertial Navigation System) in the absence of GNSS signal, which usually has several sensors like accelerometers (to measure motion in 3D directions) gyro (to stabilize pitch roll yaw drift) and magnetometer (compass for yaw direction), these sensors will provide the drone pointing directions and how long it moved since it started, couple this with on board maps and you have a flight with no GNSS. Is it accurate like GNSS? Not cm or even meters level, but that depends on how good the IMS is. Also, you can have plenty of these cardboard models, or even 3D printable one of you are into this hobby!

137 points by rmason 3y ago

The Russians were complaining that it is in most cases invisible to Radar and needs to be shot down by gunfire. It can also carry an explosive payload of 4-5 Kg. Apparently 3 out of 16 were shot down with machine gun fire using tracers but 13 got through to destroy several SU-30 and MIG aircraft along with several air defense and radar complexes at a Russian airbase in the Kursk Region.

rjzzleep 3y ago
Source please? The Russians complained? Or the Ukrainians reported that the Russians complained?
- tguvot 3y ago
  For people who follow "this thing", its seriously hard to "find again" sources due to amount of information that created every day. but just for you: https://t.me/fighter_bomber/13797 https://t.me/fighter_bomber/13797 (not sure where from op got his news)
- endchanted 3y ago
  Sure, check Fighterbomber's TG
- ChumpGPT 3y ago
  Russian Military blogger on Telegram. He spoke about the attack and the challenges, Ukraine said that 13 of the 16 made it to the intended targets. There will be video or satellite imagery released at some point. I tend to believe these reports since I understand who is providing the targeting information with precise coordinates and information. You can believe what you like.
  - rjzzleep 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - KeplerBoy 3y ago
      it's called fog of war for a reason. You shouldn't take anything at face value.
    - ChumpGPT 3y ago
      This was about the Australian drone and it's possible potential as an extremely cheap and powerful weapon. The reason it's even in the news is because they were used recently and the imagery of a downed drone and attack location was released by the Russians, not the Ukrainians. Somehow your response has turned into a tirade against Ukraine and their claims and every other grievance you have for Ukraine.
      - rjzzleep 3y ago
        This is about accountability. When a person constantly lies you cannot just take their claims at face value. All the things I wrote were official statements from Ukrainian government officials including the Ukrainian MoD. As such there is currently no data corroborating the claims that the Australian drone is as good as it claims. What we do know so far is that the Geran(Shahed) and the Lancets have shown to be quite deadly for the reasons mentioned above. Although the Geran is not a loitering munition. It is entirely possible that the Australian drone is performing as well, but as of now there is no such data. The last drone that was seen in the battlefields from the Ukrainian side was the switchblade and it was orders of magnitude more expensive than the Australian one and performed abysmal. One thing to note here is that the Russians according to most western publications[1] have been quite successful at jamming GPS guided munition, so even if it is as successful as the Ukrainians claim it will probably not be a game changer in this conflict. [1] https://www.economist.com/special-report/2023/07/03/the-latest-in-the-battle-of-jamming-with-electronic-beams https://www.economist.com/special-report/2023/07/03/the-late...
- nradov 3y ago
  There was an unconfirmed report today that Ukrainian forces used drones to destroy several Russian aircraft at the Kursk airbase. I wouldn't take it seriously until we see something from an independent source, or satellite imagery. https://news.yahoo.com/russia-kursk-airbase-suffers-major-165100378.html https://news.yahoo.com/russia-kursk-airbase-suffers-major-16...
jncfhnb 3y ago
This is not specific to these specific cardboard drones. These cardboard ones are cool but hardly a game changer

asimpleusecase 3y ago

I would expect Ukraine could learn how to produce their own in a couple of weeks. Have patterns and a press to cut out the pieces and mass produce them. The effect of thousands of these would be similar to massive volleys of arrows in medevil battle, only in this case each has targeting and 5kg warhead

_joel 3y ago
The Ukranian drone industry has rocketed (no pun intended) since the invasion. I'd highly recommend checking out this video[1] from the FT on the tech industry that has popped up around this, inside Ukraine itself. Just such a travesty that they need to do this at all. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voPCPhzmL10 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voPCPhzmL10
- jacquesm 3y ago
  The kind of know-how they are building up there is making them a force to be reckoned with, it is one of those if-it-doesn't-kill-you-it-will-make-you-stronger things. Obviously Russia can do anything that Ukraine can do but Ukraine has a very large and wealthy contingent of the world behind them and they are motivated far beyond the Russians. I really hope they will be able to force some kind of breakthrough to the point that even Putin realizes that giving up is the better outcome.
  - thriftwy 3y ago
    Russians are motivated by the fact that several million holders of Russian citizenship are living in the area that Ukraine is set to reconquer. Most of whose did not live under Ukrainian control for a decade now.
    - jncfhnb 3y ago
      Russia doesn’t give a shit about those people.
    - tjrgergw 3y ago

dontwearitout 3y ago

"You will live to see man-made horrors beyond your comprehension." - Tesla The prospect of low cost swarms of AI enabled drones terrifies me. If you've watched any drone combat footage from Ukraine you know it's just around the corner, and this is another step in that direction.

meheleventyone 3y ago
This capability is mostly open source already isn’t it? Granted the AI isn’t fancy but it’d be reasonably trivial to adapt some foamboard or cardboard designs to carry a small payload and turn them into GPS guided bombs. Probably doesn’t happen often more due to it being substantially easier to do what people inclined towards this action want another way.
- dontwearitout 3y ago
  Yes, a software stack to turn these drones into autonomous area denial or autonomous trench clearing tools could be readily cobbled together using mostly open source components. It would be such a tide changer that it's only a matter of time, and god help the poor souls on the front lines.
- hackerlight 3y ago
  If we have made an area that can't be traversed by humans on either side, doesn't this benefit the defenders the most?
r00fus 3y ago
Exactly this is our future: https://youtu.be/TlO2gcs1YvM?si=bp-PL5tIEku_HXfO https://youtu.be/TlO2gcs1YvM?si=bp-PL5tIEku_HXfO
- warning26 3y ago
  I find this movie fascinating -- I wonder how far we are from building the hypothetical autonomous drone swarms in the movie.

piker 3y ago

Seems like another example of the importance of battery improvements. With enough thrust-to-weight I've heard you can get a Buick to fly. Thus, some of the marginal aerodynamic optimizations that necessitate more complicated builds maybe can be dispensed with.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
Single-use also dramatically expands the envelope of workable chemistries.
- barrkel 3y ago
  Indeed, zinc air batteries (used in hearing aids) are more energy dense than lithium ion, and are cheap. Lithium air would be much better again (close to gasoline) but a harder material to work with, and more expensive.
  - dredmorbius 3y ago
    Metal-air batteries have the somewhat unusual property of gaining mass as they discharge (they fix oxygen from the air). How significant that mass gain is I'm uncertain of, but it confounds the diminished-mass-with-flight logic of fuel-based powerplants.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    In one-way drones for once the less nice properties of Lithium Ion batteries would be an advantage.
- dredmorbius 3y ago
  One-way travel also at least doubles effective range, which increases the targetable area by a the square. For battery-powered craft, where there's no appreciable reduction in propellent mass over the course of the flight, this is a direct scaling. For fuel-based craft (which I'm surprised are not more heavily used), the fuel mass falls as it's consumed, such that the effective net mass is somewhat less than 1/2 the total launch fuel load (less fuel mass -> less lift and drag load). In the extreme case, ballistic missiles consume virtually their entire fuel load early in the flight ("boost phase"). Cruise missiles / drones might fly to a higher altitude and glide to their targets. Even battery-powered drones might jettison their primary battery (retaining a small navigation power source) and glide to targets by first climbing to a high altitude. Another option is solar-powered (or assisted) drones, which for small payloads (most especially surveillance, though directed weapons / shaped charges would be another option) could achieve long ranges, high loiter times, or both.

ourmandave 3y ago

Easy construction; you simply need to remove the various parts from the cardboard plate with a knife and then build the drone using glue, tape and some rubber bands. It's like reading a MacGyver script.

vntx 3y ago
The MacGyver military-industrial complex is something you just have to see to believe. Cheap Macguyver warfare makes a lot of sense economically for an economy like Ukraine’s. Meanwhile in the US: On top of the $22.4 billion it cost in research and development, the USS Zumwalt, one of three Zumwalt destroyer class ships, cost over $4 billion to create….Military Watch Magazine reported issues back in 2018, saying that the USS Zumwalt “suffered from poorly functioning weapons, stalling engines and an underperformance in their stealth capabilities, among other shortcomings.” Sometimes, worse is better. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zumwalt-class_destroyer#:~:text=Fredenburg%20went%20on%20to%20detail,Zumwalt%20is%20an%20unmitigated%20disaster https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zumwalt-class_destroyer#:~:t.... https://veteranlife.com/military-news/uss-zumwalt/ https://veteranlife.com/military-news/uss-zumwalt/
- saiya-jin 3y ago
  Well, low hanging fruit is sometimes hanging very low, but if you want to move past that and reach higher, it gets exponentially harder and thus more expensive. Also things like reliability, durability under various extreme conditions, safety for humans involved and so on can escalate times and prices dramatically, but are not massive concerns in existential situation Ukraine currently is in due to russia's war. US is basically never aiming so low with new tech they want for its military, it wants brilliant solutions above everybody else, and has money to burn on it. And from time to time, when looking back those investments were well worth even with flops included. US global hegemony is not something that US wants to lose due to few hundreds billions not allocated as effectively as possible.
- dredmorbius 3y ago
  There's a classic 1951 science-fiction short story by Arthur C. Clarke, "Superiority" about a country that's developing an ultimate weapon, except that specifications and costs keep expanding to the point that only one can be afforded, and that of course comes too late. Mentioned here on SE: <https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/237557/science-fiction-story-involving-defeat-of-humans-because-we-kept-waiting-for-adv https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/237557/science-fic...> And of course Wikipedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superiority_(short_story) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superiority_(short_story)>. ISFDB: <https://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?40897 https://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?40897> It's published in Expedition to Earth (1953): <https://archive.org/details/expeditiontoeart0000arth/page/90/mode/2up?q=superiority https://archive.org/details/expeditiontoeart0000arth/page/90...>

leonidasv 3y ago

The website seems to have been hugged to death. WebArchive has a copy, tho: https://web.archive.org/web/20230827191921/https://aircosmosinternational.com/article/ukraine-uses-australian-drones-made-of-cardboard-3664 https://web.archive.org/web/20230827191921/https://aircosmos...

kramerger 3y ago

What kind of engine and batteries do these sort of drones use?

jacquesm 3y ago
Lithium Ion (LiPo) and brushless DC.

deleted 3y ago

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mcphage 3y ago

Under negative points: > Declining reusability due to the stress on the structure: the cardboard will not be strong enough to make many flights. Which is no doubt absolutely true—but on the other hand, the cardboard isn't the valuable part of the drone. You could have a stockpile of the cardboard (which they claim is a little larger than a pizza box), and swap out the motor and electronics if a unit survives long enough that the cardboard starts to fail.

ledauphin 3y ago
yeah, this struck me as strange too. the ongoing maintenance on long-lasting industrially-manufactured drones might well cost more than rebuilding a cardboard one every few weeks.

aaron695 3y ago

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71a54xd 3y ago

[flagged]

dralley 3y ago
1) That's for the Ukrainian people to decide and nobody else. If the Ukrainians want to fight then we should help them do so. 2) These were targets on a military airbase. 3) They had an "armistice" for 8 years. It was a joke to begin with, which provided no real guarantees (as Russia continued to lie that they had nothing to do with the conflict throughout and as such they didn't need to agree to anything), signed at the point of a gun, was often ignored by both sides, and was shattered by a full scale Russian invasion 4) Ukraine has no reason to believe that any new "armistice" will lead to different outcomes than the last one - that is, Russia will maintain it a little while and then invade from a stronger starting position than the last time. Russia ignored the Budapest Memorandum, both Minsk agreements, the "grain deal" and just this week we saw what happened to Prigozhin. Any deal with Putin will last exactly as long as it takes for him to feel that he would benefit from breaking it.
- thriftwy 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - genman 3y ago
    Reductio ad absurdum.
  - nradov 3y ago
    Read the actual text of the Budapest memorandum. It was not a formal security treaty and didn't require the other signatories (UK and USA) to go to war to defend Ukraine. It merely required them to bring any violations to the UN Security Council, which they have already done. https://treaties.un.org/Pages/showDetails.aspx?objid=0800000280401fbb https://treaties.un.org/Pages/showDetails.aspx?objid=0800000...
  - dralley 3y ago
    >I doubt that anybody would think Budapest memorandum would cause Russia defending Ukraine from itself, with a straight face. Pray tell, where did the little green men come from?

Animats 3y ago

Ukraine has been going through about 10,000 drones a month. This should up the rate of production. No rear areas. No safe fire bases. No Green Zone. Another major change to war.

xenator 3y ago
Another weapon that will be used by both sides. Who can stop Russians to produce the same drones?
- The_Colonel 3y ago
  The lack of engines for one. So far they've been unable to match the Ukrainian drone production, the trend I assume will continue.

cultofmetatron 3y ago

minor nitpick but why would you paint a drone in jungle camo? seems like it would be easier to spot that way given that its very easy to see in the sky

qup 3y ago
You don't see the top of the drone from the ground. The bottom is painted differently.
yeeeloit 3y ago
Assume that the belly is painted sky colours (white/blue) and top is painted land colours.

aaomidi 3y ago

Ikea assemble your own drone when

dist-epoch 3y ago

Also in Ukraine I've seen recently a bigger plane like drone carrying 4 DJI copter drones that it can drop. So a drone-carrier.

sinkwool 3y ago
Do you have any source pls? Who controls the DJI copter drones? Does the plane act as a relay for the radio signals?

taspeotis 3y ago

But the front will fall off if you use cardboard or cardboard derivatives?

resolutebat 3y ago
Yeah, not sure this one is even going to uphold the minimum crew requirements. For non-Australian readers: https://youtu.be/3m5qxZm_JqM?feature=shared https://youtu.be/3m5qxZm_JqM?feature=shared

kgilpin 3y ago

Make your own! https://store.flitetest.com/ft-simple-cub-mkr2/ https://store.flitetest.com/ft-simple-cub-mkr2/ This one’s technically foam, but it’s a very cardboardy foam. With a little bit of carbon fiber reinforcement (provided) it’s surprisingly durable and MUCH simpler and easier to build that a balsa or fiberglass airplane. After building and flying one of these, I can certainly believe that cardboard/foam construction is great for a “disposable” (single use) airplane or even for a couple of missions - knowing that the life span will be short.

function_seven 3y ago
Oh man, Flitetest. About 10 years ago I got really into building those planes. Never bought any kits, just used their free plans to cut my own foam boards. I did buy some components from them; usually a bulkhead or landing gear setup. My favorite one was the F-22 replica (https://store.flitetest.com/ft-22-mkr2/ https://store.flitetest.com/ft-22-mkr2/). With the right motor and prop—and by abusing the discharge rate on the battery—I think I got that jet screaming at ~60mph. Not sure what the precise speed was, but it was definitely in the “should I be buying insurance for this?” territory. The Bloody Wonder was my favorite for aerobatics. It was easy to build, fairly tough, and easy to fly but still twitchy when you wanted it to be.
Ancapistani 3y ago
I've built a few like this, and have designed a handful that haven't made it out of Fusion 360 yet. I have a kit by an FPV pilot (Shelby Voll) that consists of a couple of pieces of pre-cut styrofoam, some carbon fiber rods for rigidity, and other various odds and ends. I think I paid $200 for it. I haven't built it yet, but I've flown friends' builds from the same kit and have built similar ones. It'll take about two hours to build with simple hand tools, and is probably the most durable "flying wing" design of which I'm aware. I'm mostly into FPV quadcopters, but it seems most people who fly them who get into "wings" seem to prefer them.

cam_l 3y ago

Well, this seems like a natural evolution from the cardboard tanks we used in North Africa in WW1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dummy_tank https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dummy_tank

ohm 3y ago

Here’s a video of a cardboard one from 10 years ago https://youtu.be/0stHV0s7XaU https://youtu.be/0stHV0s7XaU

tamimio 3y ago

> autonomous flight (GPS) through an interface that can be installed on an Android tablet. In case of jamming, the flight continues because the drone can locate itself according to its speed and direction. In case anyone is wondering how that works, it uses on-board IMS (Inertial Navigation System) in the absence of GNSS signal, which usually has several sensors like accelerometers (to measure motion in 3D directions) gyro (to stabilize pitch roll yaw drift) and magnetometer (compass for yaw direction), these sensors will provide the drone pointing directions and how long it moved since it started, couple this with on board maps and you have a flight with no GNSS. Is it accurate like GNSS? Not cm or even meters level, but that depends on how good the IMS is. Also, you can have plenty of these cardboard models, or even 3D printable one of you are into this hobby!