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> While the average American is lucky to get 11 vacation days WHAT? Does that count sick days as well, or is that a myth? Here in Germany, I get 30 vacation d

> While the average American is lucky to get 11 vacation days WHAT? Does that count sick days as well, or is that a myth? Here in Germany, I get 30 vacation days per calendar year, plus any sick days, and thats fairly normal. Edit: Sure the absolute salaries here are lower, but the cost of living is vastly different and the social support structures and healthcare are different, too. That should definitely be kept in mind. I dont need to drive my car a lot, because my city is fully walkable/bikeable, and thats not a super rare thing here. There are a lot of factors. I feel vacation days are just a basic requirement for happiness, whereas being rich maybe isnt

jacobgorm 3y ago
When I first joined a US startup, they said "you can take unlimited PTO -- we suggest starting with a week per year"... I negotiated that up to the five weeks that are standard here in Denmark.
- iteria 3y ago
  That is blowing my mind 2 weeks is generally considers standard for white collar work in the US, but companies that have unlimited PTO have a higher tolerance in my experience. I take off 5 weeks a year. I found that taking off a week a quarter and then whatever random emergency days was just right for me. It's why once I experienced unlimited PTO I never went back.
- FartyMcFarter 3y ago
  "Unlimited PTO" is a red flag for me. It means that PTO will be governed by pressure, self-pressure and shame.
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    Also you do not get paid for leave you have accrued when you are terminated or quit.
    - bradleyjg 3y ago
      That’s the entire reason for such policies. If it was coupled with coupled with truly top of market expectations (ie six weeks, including an annual 3 week vacation) I think it would be a fair trade off. But it often is not.
  - morbia 3y ago
    Exactly, I got into quite a heated discussion with a company that offered me a job with "unlimited PTO". They wanted me to sign in the contract with a clause along the lines of "you have unlimited PTO within reason". The whole point of contracts is that you have to explicitly define what is deemed "reasonable". I insisted they put a number to it and they refused. Needless to say, I didn't accept the job in the end.
    - tasuki 3y ago
      Eh I also wouldn't take that job. But why, really? If you're used to 35 days of PTO, and you take the same 35 days off at your new job, who are they to claim that whatever you're used to is unreasonable?
  - mmcnl 3y ago
    Exactly, ambiguous contractual agreements are always in favor of those with more power.
- prepend 3y ago
  For unlimited PTO, I always like to ask “what are the median number of days taken?” If they don’t know, that’s a red flag. Id expect it to be about 20-25 if it also includes sick leave. 30-40 means people really take the policy seriously.
pcthrowaway 3y ago
> Here in Germany, I get 30 vacation days Does this include public holidays? Or do you have public holidays?
- isaacremuant 3y ago
  I'm assuming it includes public holidays. For context UK can commonly have 20 to 30 working days and that won't count public holidays (which depend on the country, and should be around 9-11 days which includes new year's, xmas).
- pjmlp 3y ago
  Public Holidays come on top of that, pretty standard across Europe, public holidays don't count for vacation days.
- ruszki 3y ago
  When Europeans talk about vacation days, public holidays are never included.
  - dukeyukey 3y ago
    Depends on the country. I officially get 33 days off at work, which includes public holidays; if I wanted to, I could probably negotiate to have those become part of my standard PTO, especially if it meant they had someone who could reliably run support during public holidays.
    - ruszki 3y ago
      If it’s not standard PTO, then what is it? We talked here about standard PTO.
- Tomte 3y ago
  In addition to public holidays. Depending on the state there are ten to thirteen public holidays (but some invariably fall on the weekend).
- deleted 3y ago
bityard 3y ago
It depends greatly on the job. I have a fairly typical tech job in the US and have about a month of paid time off in total. Most white collar work is roughly the same, unless the company is managed by assholes. Retail, service industry, and blue collar work is very different, though. Time off is not always guaranteed, and sick days are not always paid.
cloogshicer 3y ago
Exactly. I live in a big European city. You basically don't need a car - pretty much anything within the city is reachable in about 30min, and public transit is comfy. Also, I have a public transit ticket that allows me to travel the entire country for a year, which only cost about 1000€. Yes, salaries are lower, but I also don't have to save anything to get my kids through university, or keep emergency funds for health issues. Also, I can't just get fired without cause. And if I do get laid off, I have 3 months of grace period, plus potentially years of unemployment money. Also, the government even pays for certain courses so I can find employment again. The social system in Europe is amazing.
- quonn 3y ago
  Parents have to pay for university in Europe unless they are poor. And while there are no fees, the costs are typically between 30k and 100k per child. edit: In Germany. I‘m German and I have studied there. I should know. edit2: Someone said this comment could be interpreted as the cost per year which is not the case. This is the total cost.
  - Teever 3y ago
    Tuiton in France is $500-600 USD/year for any European citizen. And degrees are only 3 years in France.
    - ohgodplsno 3y ago
      > And degrees are only 3 years in France. Uh, no, France follows the European-wide bachelor's master's doctorate system when it comes to granting european credits. Which means that, yes, you can follow the normal cycle of 3 years (license/bachelor's), 5 years (masters), 7 years (doctorage), and these will basically count if you're looking to study abroad. Some of my coworkers have 2 years of studies (IUT/BTS). Some have 4 (M1). Some of the PhDs in my company have 9 years, other 11, others are both working and researching at the same time. There's no mandatory 3 years.
      - 3y ago
taurath 3y ago
A huge percentage of US workers don’t get paid time off at all.
- morelisp 3y ago
  A smaller but still significant percentage of these still receive an allotment of "sick days", and if they exceed them (or have a job without them) just get fired.
  - larusso 3y ago
    That always baffled me. Yes one could say unlimited sickdays lead to a place where a worker might misuse it. But I feel that it does quite the opposite. That people don‘t call in sick and work under questionable health. We have a similar issue in Germany when it comes to the time between calling in sick and when you need a doctors notice. A lot of companies want a sick note from the doctor from day one. Means if you feel just not great you have to haul your ass to a doctor. Others and my employer counts in wants a sicknote after or on the 3rd day. That is great as it gives you the ability to just rest etc. But that system could be misused. So if it is better to count in that some might misuse it but overall the health of the workforce stays in balance or to employ a strict system where workers are compelled to get into work until they feel really sick … I tend to preference the system with trust. But I can see that that might not work everywhere.
pawelwentpawel 3y ago
Are the salaries really lower because people take more holiday or pay taxes? Also, vacation days are not always used for fancy instagram post holiday. As random as life is, there are non-medical emergencies that one needs to attend to occasionally. Being able to see family is another one. Not everyone has their parents located within 1 hour driving distance. My personal preference is to work as contractor and charge only for the days when I work. It takes away the feeling that the employer (or client) has a full control of your life and can dictate whether you will take 4 or 5 days off within a year or try to guilt trip you into working over weekends for no proper reason.
- flohofwoe 3y ago
  > and charge only for the days when I work The point of vacation days is that they are fully paid by the employer. Unpaid time off usually isn't a problem (depends on the type of work of course), as long as the employer can plan around it (e.g. I currently work 4 days a week at 20% pay cut at a German company).
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
n_ary 3y ago
> Here in Germany, I get 30 vacation days per calendar year, plus any sick days, and thats fairly normal. Sick days are fairly normal, but "30 vacation days" is not. Only bigCo/large places offer 30(some offered 35 days too). Usual is 25(state normal) with +1-2 days extra at most places. However, sick leave is godsend, no denying.
- jjallen 3y ago
  Yes 25 is very common but still more than 2x what Americans typically get
- peoplefromibiza 3y ago
  > Usual is 25(state normal) plus another ~10-15 days of National holidays
Mordisquitos 3y ago
Also, I'm amazed at the very idea of having a specific number of available sick days which I understand is the standard in the US. How on Earth is that something that is expected to be planned and accounted for by the employee? How can one "run out of" sick days? How do I see stories about US workers "donating" their unused sick leave days to a colleague with cancer or other long illness? I'm too lazy to look up the details, but here in Spain the rules are something like no pay for the first 1–3 days of continued sick leave (if not a work accident, in which case you are paid from day 1), followed by a partial payment per day off (40% of base rate?) with gradual increase as the sick leave is prolonged (15 days maybe?) with the payment being gradually reimbursed to the employer by Social Security, I think up to 75% of the employee's base rate. Businesses may of course choose to top it up from their own purse. Other than the business legitimately suspecting abuse of sick leave, the only special case breaks into effect when sick leave exceeds 365 continuous days, at which point long-term disability may be considered. I cannot say how dystopic the idea of having limited sick days sounds to me. I am someone who very rarely gets sick, so I very rarely need to call in sick, but I simply know I am protected if I need to as a basic right. And some years ago I did have to make use of it unexpectedly (of course!). Through no fault of my own I was involved in a traffic accident over a weekend which resulted in, among other minor injuries, a severe traumatic brain injury which could have killed me or left me disabled if it weren't for the emergency brain surgery I received. I spent a week in the ICU, another week in the main hospital wing, months of rehabilitation, and around 10 months of "sick leave" until I was able to work again. I was decently paid this whole period and at no point did I have to worry about losing my job (nor about "medical bills" of course!), being able to fully focus on myself and making a full recovery. I can only imagine how awful it could have been had I not had these basic protective rights as a worker and a citizen.
- leksak 3y ago
  I've had three or four, it's honestly hard to count at this point, mental health crisises with associated sickleave of varying durations. Living in Europe that has been "fine". Judging by what I read I'd presumably be homeless and destitute in the USA.
- apexalpha 3y ago
peoplefromibiza 3y ago
> I feel vacation days are just a basic requirement for happiness, whereas being rich maybe isnt Not only that, they are a requirement to make a good worker, that consequently make a good company. If you burn out your employees you fall behind schedule pretty quickly, so you have to rely on high turnover, which isn't a great option either. Take the example of Japan With a new law taking effect in April 2019 requiring employees who are due 10 days or more of paid vacation to take at least five days off per year Working too much can have tremendous social consequences Japan has long had a reputation for being one of the most overworked countries in the world. The term karoshi, or death by overwork, emerged in the 1990s when an increasing number of Japanese professionals were dying from heart attacks and strokes. Recent years have seen an epidemic of suicide, in part because of work-related stress: of 30,000 suicides in 2011, 10,000 were believed to be related to overwork, according to the police.
- BlargMcLarg 3y ago
  >If you burn out your employees Burn out in Europe is still omnipresent and rising these days. This includes Germany, the 'chosen child' every proponent points at in these discussions. A few weeks off barely makes a dent in this and vacation days / time off hasn't been that noticeably different since the 70s/80s. >Japan That's just a law that pushes them to use it and keeps companies from going 'ah yeah difficult'. It's barely anything when work culture chains employees down to the whims of employers, or risking to be seen as dysfunctional for trying to get out of that 'I belong to my company' trap. Surprise, that's the same culture that exists in most EU-countries. Just less hardcore.
  - peoplefromibiza 3y ago
    > Burn out in Europe is still omnipresent and rising these days From what I know, I work for a very large insurance company, it's mostly healthcare department due to consequences of COVID. Which shouldn't have happened, but it id. > This include Germany, the 'chosen child' every proponent points at in these discussions I'm not German and I do not particularly trust Germany, in fact I think it's one of the worst Western European country to live and work. > A few weeks off barely makes a dent But it makes a difference, that's the point. I was simply pointing out that paid vacation it's a tool that's very useful for companies too, as for the 70s and th 80s, I was there, it was much worse than today. My parents worked for the national healthcare in my Country, in 12 hours shift, 5 consecutive nights. Now it's 8 hour shifts for a maximum of two consecutive nights and then you get mandatory 36 hours off and morning shifts for a week. Try working 6 days a week for a month and then 5 days a week for a month and see how much those "only few days" make a dent in your well being. > Surprise, that's the same culture that exists in most EU-countries. Just less hardcore. I work 220 days/year and I'm off 145 days, it's pretty standard here if you have a standard contract, so no freelance, no contractor, no off the books, etc. (230 work days might be closer to the average, I got +10 days of holidays for thermal treatment, to cure my chronic sinusitis, yes, we have that too and the State also pays for the treatments) Which is not exactly a "few weeks". Could be better, but could be US style or Japan style. p.s. the law in japan just forces employers out of work at least for a few days to counter their extreme workaholic culture, which is nothing like what we have here in Europe. From Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_annual_leave_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_annual_leave_b...) Minimum mandatory paid vacation days, normalized for a five-day workweek: Japan: 6–10 days My Country: 23–28 days
cantremember26 3y ago
click the hyperlink in that very quoted sentence and you'll get your answer (no the figure doesn't include sick days)..
flohofwoe 3y ago
Important to note though that the minimum in Germany is "only" 20 days annually for 5 working day weeks.
panda888888 3y ago
The even crazier part is maternity leave, or the lack of it. The US government requires that women who have been at their job for more than one year get 12 weeks of unpaid time off. But many people can't afford to not be paid, so they don't take the full amount. Women who have been at their job for less than one year legally get 0 days off. Less than 25% of US women have any type of paid maternity leave.
- curiousWaste 3y ago
  Yet, birth rate in USA is significantly higher than in Finland for example
  - oliwarner 3y ago
    Quite high in Somalia too. I'd suggest there are more factors than paid maternity leave.
TrueGeek 3y ago
A lot of these comments are saying they get sick days. I’m a senior dev in the US and only one company I’ve worked at in 24 years has given me sick days. One company justified the combined bucket of vacation / sick days by saying it’s more fair to employees that have chronic illness because they don’t have to tell anyone. One company only gave 10 days total (vacation and sick) until you had been there 5 years. My current company gives me 20 days (combined vacation and sick) but we only get 6 paid holidays.
jimmydddd 3y ago
And in the US they have a new racket that's even worse. They provide "unlimited paid time off." However, it has to all be approved by your manager. So now, instead of saying "I still have three PTO days left for this year, so I guess I'll take them this week," you have to beg your manager, so in reality, people end up taking fewer days.
sershe 3y ago
Hmm, housing in Europe is more expensive than in the US, especially per square meter. Not needing to drive a car is a preference and Americans clearly don't have the same one, it's not an economic advantage for most, and cars in US are cheaper to own. From my vacation experience groceries etc in Europe are much more expensive. I mean they have disposable income measures that account for all that as well as welfare programs. In the end disposable incomes in the US make half of the first world look like third world: https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-disposable-income.htm https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-disposable-income.htm (click table, and pick gross including transfers) You can also see % of that spent on housing, US is lower than most EU countries
gymbeaux 3y ago
I’ve been a software engineer for around 8 years and have had 5 different employers. One (Allstate) allowed us to buy more than the 15 vacation days, and gave us a few sick days I believe. They upped you to 20 after the first year, which is somewhat common in my experience. But no other job I’ve had, including 2 startups, gave sick days. Microsoft, motherfucking Microsoft, starts you off at 15 days of PTO per year. I’m not really sure why people are itching to work there.

jacobgorm 3y ago

When I first joined a US startup, they said "you can take unlimited PTO -- we suggest starting with a week per year"... I negotiated that up to the five weeks that are standard here in Denmark.

iteria 3y ago
That is blowing my mind 2 weeks is generally considers standard for white collar work in the US, but companies that have unlimited PTO have a higher tolerance in my experience. I take off 5 weeks a year. I found that taking off a week a quarter and then whatever random emergency days was just right for me. It's why once I experienced unlimited PTO I never went back.
FartyMcFarter 3y ago
"Unlimited PTO" is a red flag for me. It means that PTO will be governed by pressure, self-pressure and shame.
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  Also you do not get paid for leave you have accrued when you are terminated or quit.
  - bradleyjg 3y ago
    That’s the entire reason for such policies. If it was coupled with coupled with truly top of market expectations (ie six weeks, including an annual 3 week vacation) I think it would be a fair trade off. But it often is not.
- morbia 3y ago
  Exactly, I got into quite a heated discussion with a company that offered me a job with "unlimited PTO". They wanted me to sign in the contract with a clause along the lines of "you have unlimited PTO within reason". The whole point of contracts is that you have to explicitly define what is deemed "reasonable". I insisted they put a number to it and they refused. Needless to say, I didn't accept the job in the end.
  - tasuki 3y ago
    Eh I also wouldn't take that job. But why, really? If you're used to 35 days of PTO, and you take the same 35 days off at your new job, who are they to claim that whatever you're used to is unreasonable?
- mmcnl 3y ago
  Exactly, ambiguous contractual agreements are always in favor of those with more power.
prepend 3y ago
For unlimited PTO, I always like to ask “what are the median number of days taken?” If they don’t know, that’s a red flag. Id expect it to be about 20-25 if it also includes sick leave. 30-40 means people really take the policy seriously.

pcthrowaway 3y ago

> Here in Germany, I get 30 vacation days Does this include public holidays? Or do you have public holidays?

isaacremuant 3y ago
I'm assuming it includes public holidays. For context UK can commonly have 20 to 30 working days and that won't count public holidays (which depend on the country, and should be around 9-11 days which includes new year's, xmas).
pjmlp 3y ago
Public Holidays come on top of that, pretty standard across Europe, public holidays don't count for vacation days.
ruszki 3y ago
When Europeans talk about vacation days, public holidays are never included.
- dukeyukey 3y ago
  Depends on the country. I officially get 33 days off at work, which includes public holidays; if I wanted to, I could probably negotiate to have those become part of my standard PTO, especially if it meant they had someone who could reliably run support during public holidays.
  - ruszki 3y ago
    If it’s not standard PTO, then what is it? We talked here about standard PTO.
Tomte 3y ago
In addition to public holidays. Depending on the state there are ten to thirteen public holidays (but some invariably fall on the weekend).
deleted 3y ago

bityard 3y ago

It depends greatly on the job. I have a fairly typical tech job in the US and have about a month of paid time off in total. Most white collar work is roughly the same, unless the company is managed by assholes. Retail, service industry, and blue collar work is very different, though. Time off is not always guaranteed, and sick days are not always paid.

cloogshicer 3y ago

Exactly. I live in a big European city. You basically don't need a car - pretty much anything within the city is reachable in about 30min, and public transit is comfy. Also, I have a public transit ticket that allows me to travel the entire country for a year, which only cost about 1000€. Yes, salaries are lower, but I also don't have to save anything to get my kids through university, or keep emergency funds for health issues. Also, I can't just get fired without cause. And if I do get laid off, I have 3 months of grace period, plus potentially years of unemployment money. Also, the government even pays for certain courses so I can find employment again. The social system in Europe is amazing.

quonn 3y ago
Parents have to pay for university in Europe unless they are poor. And while there are no fees, the costs are typically between 30k and 100k per child. edit: In Germany. I‘m German and I have studied there. I should know. edit2: Someone said this comment could be interpreted as the cost per year which is not the case. This is the total cost.
- Teever 3y ago
  Tuiton in France is $500-600 USD/year for any European citizen. And degrees are only 3 years in France.
  - ohgodplsno 3y ago
    > And degrees are only 3 years in France. Uh, no, France follows the European-wide bachelor's master's doctorate system when it comes to granting european credits. Which means that, yes, you can follow the normal cycle of 3 years (license/bachelor's), 5 years (masters), 7 years (doctorage), and these will basically count if you're looking to study abroad. Some of my coworkers have 2 years of studies (IUT/BTS). Some have 4 (M1). Some of the PhDs in my company have 9 years, other 11, others are both working and researching at the same time. There's no mandatory 3 years.
    - 3y ago

taurath 3y ago

A huge percentage of US workers don’t get paid time off at all.

morelisp 3y ago
A smaller but still significant percentage of these still receive an allotment of "sick days", and if they exceed them (or have a job without them) just get fired.
- larusso 3y ago
  That always baffled me. Yes one could say unlimited sickdays lead to a place where a worker might misuse it. But I feel that it does quite the opposite. That people don‘t call in sick and work under questionable health. We have a similar issue in Germany when it comes to the time between calling in sick and when you need a doctors notice. A lot of companies want a sick note from the doctor from day one. Means if you feel just not great you have to haul your ass to a doctor. Others and my employer counts in wants a sicknote after or on the 3rd day. That is great as it gives you the ability to just rest etc. But that system could be misused. So if it is better to count in that some might misuse it but overall the health of the workforce stays in balance or to employ a strict system where workers are compelled to get into work until they feel really sick … I tend to preference the system with trust. But I can see that that might not work everywhere.

pawelwentpawel 3y ago

Are the salaries really lower because people take more holiday or pay taxes? Also, vacation days are not always used for fancy instagram post holiday. As random as life is, there are non-medical emergencies that one needs to attend to occasionally. Being able to see family is another one. Not everyone has their parents located within 1 hour driving distance. My personal preference is to work as contractor and charge only for the days when I work. It takes away the feeling that the employer (or client) has a full control of your life and can dictate whether you will take 4 or 5 days off within a year or try to guilt trip you into working over weekends for no proper reason.

flohofwoe 3y ago
> and charge only for the days when I work The point of vacation days is that they are fully paid by the employer. Unpaid time off usually isn't a problem (depends on the type of work of course), as long as the employer can plan around it (e.g. I currently work 4 days a week at 20% pay cut at a German company).

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

n_ary 3y ago

> Here in Germany, I get 30 vacation days per calendar year, plus any sick days, and thats fairly normal. Sick days are fairly normal, but "30 vacation days" is not. Only bigCo/large places offer 30(some offered 35 days too). Usual is 25(state normal) with +1-2 days extra at most places. However, sick leave is godsend, no denying.

jjallen 3y ago
Yes 25 is very common but still more than 2x what Americans typically get
peoplefromibiza 3y ago
> Usual is 25(state normal) plus another ~10-15 days of National holidays

Mordisquitos 3y ago

Also, I'm amazed at the very idea of having a specific number of available sick days which I understand is the standard in the US. How on Earth is that something that is expected to be planned and accounted for by the employee? How can one "run out of" sick days? How do I see stories about US workers "donating" their unused sick leave days to a colleague with cancer or other long illness? I'm too lazy to look up the details, but here in Spain the rules are something like no pay for the first 1–3 days of continued sick leave (if not a work accident, in which case you are paid from day 1), followed by a partial payment per day off (40% of base rate?) with gradual increase as the sick leave is prolonged (15 days maybe?) with the payment being gradually reimbursed to the employer by Social Security, I think up to 75% of the employee's base rate. Businesses may of course choose to top it up from their own purse. Other than the business legitimately suspecting abuse of sick leave, the only special case breaks into effect when sick leave exceeds 365 continuous days, at which point long-term disability may be considered. I cannot say how dystopic the idea of having limited sick days sounds to me. I am someone who very rarely gets sick, so I very rarely need to call in sick, but I simply know I am protected if I need to as a basic right. And some years ago I did have to make use of it unexpectedly (of course!). Through no fault of my own I was involved in a traffic accident over a weekend which resulted in, among other minor injuries, a severe traumatic brain injury which could have killed me or left me disabled if it weren't for the emergency brain surgery I received. I spent a week in the ICU, another week in the main hospital wing, months of rehabilitation, and around 10 months of "sick leave" until I was able to work again. I was decently paid this whole period and at no point did I have to worry about losing my job (nor about "medical bills" of course!), being able to fully focus on myself and making a full recovery. I can only imagine how awful it could have been had I not had these basic protective rights as a worker and a citizen.

leksak 3y ago
I've had three or four, it's honestly hard to count at this point, mental health crisises with associated sickleave of varying durations. Living in Europe that has been "fine". Judging by what I read I'd presumably be homeless and destitute in the USA.
apexalpha 3y ago

peoplefromibiza 3y ago

> I feel vacation days are just a basic requirement for happiness, whereas being rich maybe isnt Not only that, they are a requirement to make a good worker, that consequently make a good company. If you burn out your employees you fall behind schedule pretty quickly, so you have to rely on high turnover, which isn't a great option either. Take the example of Japan With a new law taking effect in April 2019 requiring employees who are due 10 days or more of paid vacation to take at least five days off per year Working too much can have tremendous social consequences Japan has long had a reputation for being one of the most overworked countries in the world. The term karoshi, or death by overwork, emerged in the 1990s when an increasing number of Japanese professionals were dying from heart attacks and strokes. Recent years have seen an epidemic of suicide, in part because of work-related stress: of 30,000 suicides in 2011, 10,000 were believed to be related to overwork, according to the police.

BlargMcLarg 3y ago
>If you burn out your employees Burn out in Europe is still omnipresent and rising these days. This includes Germany, the 'chosen child' every proponent points at in these discussions. A few weeks off barely makes a dent in this and vacation days / time off hasn't been that noticeably different since the 70s/80s. >Japan That's just a law that pushes them to use it and keeps companies from going 'ah yeah difficult'. It's barely anything when work culture chains employees down to the whims of employers, or risking to be seen as dysfunctional for trying to get out of that 'I belong to my company' trap. Surprise, that's the same culture that exists in most EU-countries. Just less hardcore.
- peoplefromibiza 3y ago
  > Burn out in Europe is still omnipresent and rising these days From what I know, I work for a very large insurance company, it's mostly healthcare department due to consequences of COVID. Which shouldn't have happened, but it id. > This include Germany, the 'chosen child' every proponent points at in these discussions I'm not German and I do not particularly trust Germany, in fact I think it's one of the worst Western European country to live and work. > A few weeks off barely makes a dent But it makes a difference, that's the point. I was simply pointing out that paid vacation it's a tool that's very useful for companies too, as for the 70s and th 80s, I was there, it was much worse than today. My parents worked for the national healthcare in my Country, in 12 hours shift, 5 consecutive nights. Now it's 8 hour shifts for a maximum of two consecutive nights and then you get mandatory 36 hours off and morning shifts for a week. Try working 6 days a week for a month and then 5 days a week for a month and see how much those "only few days" make a dent in your well being. > Surprise, that's the same culture that exists in most EU-countries. Just less hardcore. I work 220 days/year and I'm off 145 days, it's pretty standard here if you have a standard contract, so no freelance, no contractor, no off the books, etc. (230 work days might be closer to the average, I got +10 days of holidays for thermal treatment, to cure my chronic sinusitis, yes, we have that too and the State also pays for the treatments) Which is not exactly a "few weeks". Could be better, but could be US style or Japan style. p.s. the law in japan just forces employers out of work at least for a few days to counter their extreme workaholic culture, which is nothing like what we have here in Europe. From Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_annual_leave_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_minimum_annual_leave_b...) Minimum mandatory paid vacation days, normalized for a five-day workweek: Japan: 6–10 days My Country: 23–28 days

cantremember26 3y ago

click the hyperlink in that very quoted sentence and you'll get your answer (no the figure doesn't include sick days)..

flohofwoe 3y ago

Important to note though that the minimum in Germany is "only" 20 days annually for 5 working day weeks.

panda888888 3y ago

The even crazier part is maternity leave, or the lack of it. The US government requires that women who have been at their job for more than one year get 12 weeks of unpaid time off. But many people can't afford to not be paid, so they don't take the full amount. Women who have been at their job for less than one year legally get 0 days off. Less than 25% of US women have any type of paid maternity leave.

curiousWaste 3y ago
Yet, birth rate in USA is significantly higher than in Finland for example
- oliwarner 3y ago
  Quite high in Somalia too. I'd suggest there are more factors than paid maternity leave.

TrueGeek 3y ago

A lot of these comments are saying they get sick days. I’m a senior dev in the US and only one company I’ve worked at in 24 years has given me sick days. One company justified the combined bucket of vacation / sick days by saying it’s more fair to employees that have chronic illness because they don’t have to tell anyone. One company only gave 10 days total (vacation and sick) until you had been there 5 years. My current company gives me 20 days (combined vacation and sick) but we only get 6 paid holidays.

jimmydddd 3y ago

And in the US they have a new racket that's even worse. They provide "unlimited paid time off." However, it has to all be approved by your manager. So now, instead of saying "I still have three PTO days left for this year, so I guess I'll take them this week," you have to beg your manager, so in reality, people end up taking fewer days.

sershe 3y ago

Hmm, housing in Europe is more expensive than in the US, especially per square meter. Not needing to drive a car is a preference and Americans clearly don't have the same one, it's not an economic advantage for most, and cars in US are cheaper to own. From my vacation experience groceries etc in Europe are much more expensive. I mean they have disposable income measures that account for all that as well as welfare programs. In the end disposable incomes in the US make half of the first world look like third world: https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-disposable-income.htm https://data.oecd.org/hha/household-disposable-income.htm (click table, and pick gross including transfers) You can also see % of that spent on housing, US is lower than most EU countries

gymbeaux 3y ago

I’ve been a software engineer for around 8 years and have had 5 different employers. One (Allstate) allowed us to buy more than the 15 vacation days, and gave us a few sick days I believe. They upped you to 20 after the first year, which is somewhat common in my experience. But no other job I’ve had, including 2 startups, gave sick days. Microsoft, motherfucking Microsoft, starts you off at 15 days of PTO per year. I’m not really sure why people are itching to work there.