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There is 0 reason to learn mandarin if you're doing it for travel/business reasons In Taiwan street signs do mostly have English translations. A lot of citize

There is 0 reason to learn mandarin if you're doing it for travel/business reasons In Taiwan street signs do mostly have English translations. A lot of citizens speak English, especially night market vendors. You'll also have a lot of native English speakers in Taipei due to expatriation from US and Canada. In Singapore signs officially are in English. And it's one of the four official languages, which means most people speaks English. In Malaysia people usually speak at least 4 languages. Because it was ruled by Britain before, people speak English fairly well. Lastly, in China, well, nobody is traveling there now. International travel is down 97% this year, even after reopening. And if you're doing business there, well, there's no point understanding the contract in Mandarin because most likely it won't be enforced, and will favor local business anyways by the courts. What's really screwy is the government has replaced most of the English translation on street signs from a literal translation to phonetic translation of the mandarin sound. So even if your read the English part of the sign you cannot understand it.

jimbob45 3y ago
Do you have an explanation for China’s low tourism? Is it just latent fears of COVID?
- jamesaurichs 3y ago
  Here are some conjectures: 1.) There is a very high dislike of China across the world. Large majorities in most of the 19 countries surveyed have negative views of China https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2022/06/29/negative-views-of-china-tied-to-critical-views-of-its-policies-on-human-rights/ https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2022/06/29/negative-views... 2.) No business need to travel there. Foreign investment is down 90% this year. Literally no US/europe presence in the trade fairs in China the summer. 3.) Flights are super expensive, because of low demand, upwards of $5k-10k. travel out of China is down hugely due to the economy, you can search on youTube for videos from Shanghai airport where the airport is devoid of travelers, and filled with empty shops. 4.) It is very hard for travelers to navigate through China. No English translations in street signs. One needs Alipay to pay for anything in China, which is complicated to setup. Ethnocentrism from rising nationalism means there could be racism/violence against travelers.
  - LeifCarrotson 3y ago
    I traveled to Shanghai in 2018 for business. Attitudes were mixed, but mostly impressed by the pace of development. Flights were cheap for the amount of fuel required ($1200). The (Japanese) OEM I was subcontracting for wanted to install and train the operators using the same equipment in their US final assembly plants as in the Chinese factories where the subassemblies were made. I studied the FSI Mandarin course enough to catch a few basic phrases and read a little pinyin, and I set up Alipay on arrival with a small amount of help from my host. The only shortcoming from a travel perspective was that I ran out of my (TSA-approved) travel-size deodorant and could not find Western deodorant in any of the shops. On the one hand, it's staggering to me how rapid the pace of change against China has been. On the other hand, it was also staggering how rapidly they were modernizing and building in 2018.
  - resolutebat 3y ago
    Flights are super expensive because of high demand. They're limited not because people don't want to fly, but because China still hasn't fully ramped down the tit-for-tat COVID restrictions that at one point only allowed one flight per week per airline from the US to China.
  - MissingAFew 3y ago
    That's not even true anymore, I recently bought a ticket for 1100. They don't cost 5k to 10k.
    - mensetmanusman 3y ago
      My end shows $4-9k economy, $10-12k premium.
      - MissingAFew 3y ago
        On what time frame? I bought one for around February. Maybe if you are buying same day it's that expensive?
        3y ago
- samcheng 3y ago
  I doubt it's about COVID now. The government has really ruined China's "brand" internationally. 1. You need an onerous-to-obtain visa to visit. There is no visa exemption. 2. Banking is a total pain for a foreigner. Many places only accept Alipay or Wechat, which require a Chinese bank account. Cash doesn't work well either, because the largest denomination is tiny. 3. Many US-China flights were canceled in the pandemic and never restarted afterwards. As a result, flights to China are expensive. 4. The Western apps are commonly blocked in China, and the local apps don't have an English translation. Your smartphone is a lot less useful in China. 5. Many US employers ban their employees from bringing company equipment (laptops) into China for fear of corporate espionage. 6. Lots of reports of hostile behavior toward westerners... The list could go on. There's a reason e.g. Japanese tourism is booming!
  - throwaway1777 3y ago
    Perfect list. Sums it up completely
  - andsoitis 3y ago
    > 5. Many US employers ban their employees from bringing company equipment (laptops) into China for fear of corporate espionage. Even Hong Kong, these days.
  - zeagle 3y ago
    7. I have no desire to be a political prisoner abducted to leverage a concession from the west. Same reason I would avoid Russia, North Korea, or probably areas of Mexico with cartels. See Michael Spavor, Michael Kovrig, and Brit Gringer.
    - samcheng 3y ago
      I doubt they would do that to an average schmuck like me, but the fact that it's a common consideration shows how far the Chinese government has fallen in the international public's perception. It's a shame, too. China has some really great cultural sites, substantial natural beauty, cosmopolitan cities, and excellent and varied cuisine. It would be a great tourist destination under a different government.
- slyall 3y ago
  Shortages of Flights, Geopolitical tensions, Perception that society/government is unfriendly to foreigners. Also starting from zero since covid restrictions. https://www.wsj.com/articles/chinas-latest-problem-people-dont-want-to-go-there-7d17a83a https://www.wsj.com/articles/chinas-latest-problem-people-do...
- orangepurple 3y ago
  China is fully prepared to go to war today. They have these restrictions in place to reduce complications when the war is declared.
- tjpnz 3y ago
  Why would I want to travel somewhere where the government thinks I, as a person from "the west", am the literal embodiment of satan? On a more personal note I've had a family member recently return from living in China. Harassment from local law enforcement had a large part to play.
  - MissingAFew 3y ago
    I'm sorry your family experienced that but that is not the norm, to be frank. ...Literal embodiment of Satan? What? You do realize they don't follow Christianity right? Nonsense. Overblown exaggeration.
    - mensetmanusman 3y ago
      It’s a figure of speech. Possibly poking at the fact the CCP is scared enough to be tearing down mosques/churches all over?
yieldcrv 3y ago
For trade and speculation, understanding Mandarin speaking communities is a huge opportunity Thats what I feel like anyway Lots of English speaking opportunities too, but I wanna know what people think and how in their native language, I want access
VerminOctopus1 3y ago
I can’t help but think that if you’re doing business in China from abroad, it’s good to know Mandarin. Seems like a weird take to claim there’s zero value in it.
- dahdum 3y ago
  It's definitely hyperbole, but the core idea that learning Chinese is rapidly becoming less useful for Westerners is fair. It'd be a fantastic idea if you live in BRICS and friends though. I expect China to essentially dominate that group for the rest of my lifetime, at the least.
  - nradov 3y ago
    You really think that China is going to dominate India? Come on.
    - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
      Definitely. China is significantly more unified and several steps ahead in most important areas.
      - nradov 3y ago
        China is several steps behind in demographics.
rtpg 3y ago
Even in places as English friendly as the Netherlands or Germany, working with locals is going to be smoother with a grasp of native tongues of the people you’re interacting with. And if you’re actually interested in riding the ranks as a career it’s a must that you can be able to work in the language comfortable for your superiors (in some places that’ll be English, of course…) It’s possible to not have it, but every successful outsider I’ve seen in foreign countries learn the local language even if it’s “unnecessary”
- wmidwestranger 3y ago
  I recently read something suggesting that the US State Department and Foreign Intelligence Agencies are having a hard time with language training and I'm not sure anyone could hold up the argument that their capabilities have remained at the same level as during the Cold War. There are some circumstances that explain this, areas and languages of interest change more now. But I remember when Pakistan's underground nuclear test came as a surprise and even after the Global War on Whatever, I'm not sure the US ever had as much understanding as the Soviets. (Who knows about the Russians?) Language will be a human struggle as long as humans run the world, I think you're absolutely correct on the meaningful and valuable practice of learning the language of the place you want to succeed in. I'm only fluent in English, and I like it very much for its flexibility and expressivity, but I'm familiar with a handful of romantic languages and think every language has it's high and low points.
vore 3y ago
How are you going to do any kind of business with Chinese companies without speaking Chinese? Even if you use an interpreter, clearly someone in the loop is speaking Chinese.
- jamesaurichs 3y ago
  If there are any business to do in China in the next 10-20 years. Foreign investment in China is down 90% this year. Again, international travel in China is down 97% this year. Apparently everyone else except hacker news readers are aware of the shift.
  - endisneigh 3y ago
    Such hyperbole. If you seriously think there will be no foreign business activity in China in twenty years let’s bet real cash on that. It is true that China like most countries at some point is experiencing a crisis at the moment. As an aside, I think Xi needs to go. Deng Xiaoping’s strategy was better imho. The semi-planned economy approach has worked surprisingly well for now but it’s clear it’s running out of steam. China has already suffered greatly due to such a strategy before.
    - nradov 3y ago
      The CCP leadership doesn't care what you think. Xi seems fairly healthy. He could be in power for decades to come. We need to plan around the expectation of a new Cold War with China and declining foreign trade.
    - idrios 3y ago
      I can't cite numbers but I don't think it's hyperbole. A friend of mine recently did her Master's thesis on the effects of Covid on international business in Guangzhou. She interviewed a number of business owners and the consensus was basically that a lot of businesses that shut down because of Covid don't seem to be coming back, with most seeming worried about Taiwan. But still, there was one business owner arguing that there's never been a better time to do business with China because it's cheaper right now, so who knows what will actually happen.
bohadi 3y ago
>What's really screwy is the government has replaced most of the English translation on street signs from a literal translation to phonetic translation of the mandarin sound. I don't think this is a fair take for a couple of reasons. Mandarin is unlike other languages in that it's written form is famously ideographic. Phonetic translation is all that is done in any pair {L, M}. I assure you there is no such thing as a literal translation in any language. Secondly, english as a global lingua franca is not a given and we in the anglosphere ought to be gracious in it's modern historical role, lest it decline (this is an exact mirror of dollar reserve privilege). Your statement reads as "be more accommodating for me". But through the prism of good manners it smacks of liberal entitlement. >There is 0 reason to learn hoo boy, i don't get paid enough for this... carry on
- jamesaurichs 3y ago
  English IS the global lingua franca TODAY, used by most travelers to navigate through an unknown environment. if the signs in China are not translated into English TODAY, then there's no reason to go there TODAY.
  - lstamour 3y ago
    Honestly tho, as long as the street signs have English characters on them and I can find them and I can match them to Google Maps, I’m good. Compare with the UK where all the street signs are in English but I can never find them! (They’re often attached to buildings rather than anywhere useful…)
  - MissingAFew 3y ago
    No reason at all?
  - yongjik 3y ago
    > if the signs in China are not translated into English TODAY Could you give me an example? I just Googled "beijing airport sign" and everything seems translated as expected, e.g., Gates, Beijing Capital Airport, International Departure, Drinking Water, etc. I assume you don't mean you want Beijing written as "North Capital"?
aaron695 3y ago
[dead]
_tik_ 3y ago
Which part of Taiwan did You visit? I visit Taiwan yearly. Only those night vendors served tourist area speak basic English. Futher away from Taipei my English less useful. Doing business with English is painfully slow. I dont speak Mandarin I usually rely on my basic Taiwanese dialect. In Malaysia it is depend on which part of Malaysia. Not all Malaysian Chinese can speak Mandarin. Certain part speak Cantonese or other dialect.

jimbob45 3y ago

Do you have an explanation for China’s low tourism? Is it just latent fears of COVID?

jamesaurichs 3y ago
Here are some conjectures: 1.) There is a very high dislike of China across the world. Large majorities in most of the 19 countries surveyed have negative views of China https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2022/06/29/negative-views-of-china-tied-to-critical-views-of-its-policies-on-human-rights/ https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2022/06/29/negative-views... 2.) No business need to travel there. Foreign investment is down 90% this year. Literally no US/europe presence in the trade fairs in China the summer. 3.) Flights are super expensive, because of low demand, upwards of $5k-10k. travel out of China is down hugely due to the economy, you can search on youTube for videos from Shanghai airport where the airport is devoid of travelers, and filled with empty shops. 4.) It is very hard for travelers to navigate through China. No English translations in street signs. One needs Alipay to pay for anything in China, which is complicated to setup. Ethnocentrism from rising nationalism means there could be racism/violence against travelers.
- LeifCarrotson 3y ago
  I traveled to Shanghai in 2018 for business. Attitudes were mixed, but mostly impressed by the pace of development. Flights were cheap for the amount of fuel required ($1200). The (Japanese) OEM I was subcontracting for wanted to install and train the operators using the same equipment in their US final assembly plants as in the Chinese factories where the subassemblies were made. I studied the FSI Mandarin course enough to catch a few basic phrases and read a little pinyin, and I set up Alipay on arrival with a small amount of help from my host. The only shortcoming from a travel perspective was that I ran out of my (TSA-approved) travel-size deodorant and could not find Western deodorant in any of the shops. On the one hand, it's staggering to me how rapid the pace of change against China has been. On the other hand, it was also staggering how rapidly they were modernizing and building in 2018.
- resolutebat 3y ago
  Flights are super expensive because of high demand. They're limited not because people don't want to fly, but because China still hasn't fully ramped down the tit-for-tat COVID restrictions that at one point only allowed one flight per week per airline from the US to China.
- MissingAFew 3y ago
  That's not even true anymore, I recently bought a ticket for 1100. They don't cost 5k to 10k.
  - mensetmanusman 3y ago
    My end shows $4-9k economy, $10-12k premium.
    - MissingAFew 3y ago
      On what time frame? I bought one for around February. Maybe if you are buying same day it's that expensive?
      - 3y ago
samcheng 3y ago
I doubt it's about COVID now. The government has really ruined China's "brand" internationally. 1. You need an onerous-to-obtain visa to visit. There is no visa exemption. 2. Banking is a total pain for a foreigner. Many places only accept Alipay or Wechat, which require a Chinese bank account. Cash doesn't work well either, because the largest denomination is tiny. 3. Many US-China flights were canceled in the pandemic and never restarted afterwards. As a result, flights to China are expensive. 4. The Western apps are commonly blocked in China, and the local apps don't have an English translation. Your smartphone is a lot less useful in China. 5. Many US employers ban their employees from bringing company equipment (laptops) into China for fear of corporate espionage. 6. Lots of reports of hostile behavior toward westerners... The list could go on. There's a reason e.g. Japanese tourism is booming!
- throwaway1777 3y ago
  Perfect list. Sums it up completely
- andsoitis 3y ago
  > 5. Many US employers ban their employees from bringing company equipment (laptops) into China for fear of corporate espionage. Even Hong Kong, these days.
- zeagle 3y ago
  7. I have no desire to be a political prisoner abducted to leverage a concession from the west. Same reason I would avoid Russia, North Korea, or probably areas of Mexico with cartels. See Michael Spavor, Michael Kovrig, and Brit Gringer.
  - samcheng 3y ago
    I doubt they would do that to an average schmuck like me, but the fact that it's a common consideration shows how far the Chinese government has fallen in the international public's perception. It's a shame, too. China has some really great cultural sites, substantial natural beauty, cosmopolitan cities, and excellent and varied cuisine. It would be a great tourist destination under a different government.
slyall 3y ago
Shortages of Flights, Geopolitical tensions, Perception that society/government is unfriendly to foreigners. Also starting from zero since covid restrictions. https://www.wsj.com/articles/chinas-latest-problem-people-dont-want-to-go-there-7d17a83a https://www.wsj.com/articles/chinas-latest-problem-people-do...
orangepurple 3y ago
China is fully prepared to go to war today. They have these restrictions in place to reduce complications when the war is declared.
tjpnz 3y ago
Why would I want to travel somewhere where the government thinks I, as a person from "the west", am the literal embodiment of satan? On a more personal note I've had a family member recently return from living in China. Harassment from local law enforcement had a large part to play.
- MissingAFew 3y ago
  I'm sorry your family experienced that but that is not the norm, to be frank. ...Literal embodiment of Satan? What? You do realize they don't follow Christianity right? Nonsense. Overblown exaggeration.
  - mensetmanusman 3y ago
    It’s a figure of speech. Possibly poking at the fact the CCP is scared enough to be tearing down mosques/churches all over?

yieldcrv 3y ago

For trade and speculation, understanding Mandarin speaking communities is a huge opportunity Thats what I feel like anyway Lots of English speaking opportunities too, but I wanna know what people think and how in their native language, I want access

VerminOctopus1 3y ago

I can’t help but think that if you’re doing business in China from abroad, it’s good to know Mandarin. Seems like a weird take to claim there’s zero value in it.

dahdum 3y ago
It's definitely hyperbole, but the core idea that learning Chinese is rapidly becoming less useful for Westerners is fair. It'd be a fantastic idea if you live in BRICS and friends though. I expect China to essentially dominate that group for the rest of my lifetime, at the least.
- nradov 3y ago
  You really think that China is going to dominate India? Come on.
  - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
    Definitely. China is significantly more unified and several steps ahead in most important areas.
    - nradov 3y ago
      China is several steps behind in demographics.

rtpg 3y ago

Even in places as English friendly as the Netherlands or Germany, working with locals is going to be smoother with a grasp of native tongues of the people you’re interacting with. And if you’re actually interested in riding the ranks as a career it’s a must that you can be able to work in the language comfortable for your superiors (in some places that’ll be English, of course…) It’s possible to not have it, but every successful outsider I’ve seen in foreign countries learn the local language even if it’s “unnecessary”

wmidwestranger 3y ago
I recently read something suggesting that the US State Department and Foreign Intelligence Agencies are having a hard time with language training and I'm not sure anyone could hold up the argument that their capabilities have remained at the same level as during the Cold War. There are some circumstances that explain this, areas and languages of interest change more now. But I remember when Pakistan's underground nuclear test came as a surprise and even after the Global War on Whatever, I'm not sure the US ever had as much understanding as the Soviets. (Who knows about the Russians?) Language will be a human struggle as long as humans run the world, I think you're absolutely correct on the meaningful and valuable practice of learning the language of the place you want to succeed in. I'm only fluent in English, and I like it very much for its flexibility and expressivity, but I'm familiar with a handful of romantic languages and think every language has it's high and low points.

vore 3y ago

How are you going to do any kind of business with Chinese companies without speaking Chinese? Even if you use an interpreter, clearly someone in the loop is speaking Chinese.

jamesaurichs 3y ago
If there are any business to do in China in the next 10-20 years. Foreign investment in China is down 90% this year. Again, international travel in China is down 97% this year. Apparently everyone else except hacker news readers are aware of the shift.
- endisneigh 3y ago
  Such hyperbole. If you seriously think there will be no foreign business activity in China in twenty years let’s bet real cash on that. It is true that China like most countries at some point is experiencing a crisis at the moment. As an aside, I think Xi needs to go. Deng Xiaoping’s strategy was better imho. The semi-planned economy approach has worked surprisingly well for now but it’s clear it’s running out of steam. China has already suffered greatly due to such a strategy before.
  - nradov 3y ago
    The CCP leadership doesn't care what you think. Xi seems fairly healthy. He could be in power for decades to come. We need to plan around the expectation of a new Cold War with China and declining foreign trade.
  - idrios 3y ago
    I can't cite numbers but I don't think it's hyperbole. A friend of mine recently did her Master's thesis on the effects of Covid on international business in Guangzhou. She interviewed a number of business owners and the consensus was basically that a lot of businesses that shut down because of Covid don't seem to be coming back, with most seeming worried about Taiwan. But still, there was one business owner arguing that there's never been a better time to do business with China because it's cheaper right now, so who knows what will actually happen.

bohadi 3y ago

>What's really screwy is the government has replaced most of the English translation on street signs from a literal translation to phonetic translation of the mandarin sound. I don't think this is a fair take for a couple of reasons. Mandarin is unlike other languages in that it's written form is famously ideographic. Phonetic translation is all that is done in any pair {L, M}. I assure you there is no such thing as a literal translation in any language. Secondly, english as a global lingua franca is not a given and we in the anglosphere ought to be gracious in it's modern historical role, lest it decline (this is an exact mirror of dollar reserve privilege). Your statement reads as "be more accommodating for me". But through the prism of good manners it smacks of liberal entitlement. >There is 0 reason to learn hoo boy, i don't get paid enough for this... carry on

jamesaurichs 3y ago
English IS the global lingua franca TODAY, used by most travelers to navigate through an unknown environment. if the signs in China are not translated into English TODAY, then there's no reason to go there TODAY.
- lstamour 3y ago
  Honestly tho, as long as the street signs have English characters on them and I can find them and I can match them to Google Maps, I’m good. Compare with the UK where all the street signs are in English but I can never find them! (They’re often attached to buildings rather than anywhere useful…)
- MissingAFew 3y ago
  No reason at all?
- yongjik 3y ago
  > if the signs in China are not translated into English TODAY Could you give me an example? I just Googled "beijing airport sign" and everything seems translated as expected, e.g., Gates, Beijing Capital Airport, International Departure, Drinking Water, etc. I assume you don't mean you want Beijing written as "North Capital"?

aaron695 3y ago

[dead]

_tik_ 3y ago

Which part of Taiwan did You visit? I visit Taiwan yearly. Only those night vendors served tourist area speak basic English. Futher away from Taipei my English less useful. Doing business with English is painfully slow. I dont speak Mandarin I usually rely on my basic Taiwanese dialect. In Malaysia it is depend on which part of Malaysia. Not all Malaysian Chinese can speak Mandarin. Certain part speak Cantonese or other dialect.