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Improving sleep

• nomilk 3y ago
  How do you sleep with Airpods Pro's in? (wouldn't it be uncomfy, especially if sleeping on one's side?)
  • vincelt 3y ago
    Sleeping on the side or front, there is a sweet spot I manage to find with soft pillows where it's not uncomfortable. The most annoying is the loud sound they emit when they're low on battery, though I think they finally added an accessibility setting to turn it down. I try not getting used falling asleep with them on, but will wear them in the middle of the night as soon as the first noises wake me up. Before I'd use a Bose QC35 but that was terrible on my neck and ears.
• daneel_w 3y ago
  In the past I had problems both with falling asleep and staying asleep, but these days it's mostly the latter. I've tried pretty much everything, too, to no avail. What works best is melatonin, but it's still spotty and I suffer diminishing returns after 3-4 days of consecutive use. I wish you good luck.
• FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  Biggest improvement to sleep quality I had was giving up caffeine, which isn't mentioned in this article. I'm inclined to bet, most people in the west who self report suffering form poor sleep, can narrow it down to caffeine over-consumption, since it leads you slowly to this march of death burning the candle at both ends where you drink coffee to compensate for poor sleep and you sleep poorly because of too much caffeine.
  • vincelt 3y ago
    True, failed to mention that I never drink caffeine after 2pm. I never understood how some people can have a coffee in the evening and go to bed just fine.
    • FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      >I never understood how some people can have a coffee in the evening and go to bed just fine By building tolerance and genetics.
      • amelius 3y ago
        Regarding genetics, are there enzymes that some people lack, and that they can take to digest caffeine better?
        • pillefitz 3y ago
          This one https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CYP1A2 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/CYP1A2. I've read somewhere that eating Broccoli enhances its activity, but likely too much is needed to have noticable effects from what I recall. If only there was a short-acting stimulant and antidote available as a combo..
          • salad-tycoon 3y ago
            Of course, that’s called a speed ball. An upper and downer. Also poppers and screamers and small world. “We buy drugs” whitest kids u know : https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=I2AQ6FwpSrc https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=I2AQ6FwpSrc Anyways, in all seriousness the idea of taking something and then taking something else later to counteract the effects, not good but popular in black, gray, and white market. I think this weekend I’ll give up caffeine, I’m a slow metabolizer.
            • pillefitz 3y ago
              I was thinking more in terms of actual antidote by either binding the active substance or speeding up its metabolism, rather than having two substances acting in opposing directions. Anyway, I gave up caffeine earlier this year and am quite happy with the results. Steady and calm energy, no frantic meandering of thoughts, no clinging to details anymore. Once every few weeks I'm craving the euphoric buzz and drink half an Espresso, but typically regret it later the same day as I'm unable to sleep and, interestingly, tend to wake up in the middle of the night for a couple of days after.
  • Tenoke 3y ago
    You are overgeneralizing from your own experience. It happens to some but most people with sleep problems do test if reducing caffeine fixes their problem.
    • FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      >most people with sleep problems do test if reducing caffeine fixes their problem You'd be surprised how many people are oblivious to this.
  • rcarr 3y ago
    Came here to say the same thing. My body basically forces me to take breaks, after a couple of months of just one or two coffees a day I’ll eventually be tired to the point where I can’t function properly until I take a week off coffee. I need to quit altogether and get back into exercising, when I get on to a good exercise streak and I’m training for an hour or two every day I rarely feel tired and I always sleep well. It’s just harder to maintain when things get busy.
  • Dowwie 3y ago
    Coffee leads to dehydration. Drink several liters of water during the day and some people may be able to continue with morning coffee consumption.
    • formvoltron 3y ago
      > Coffee leads to dehydration. Drink several liters of water during the day and some people may be able to continue with morning coffee consumption. This is a myth. Coffee has water in it. Just drink enough water from all sources.
      • bookaway 3y ago
        If it is a myth, it is a very widespread stubbornly persistent myth. If you have links to scientific sources debunking it as a myth that would much appreciated. I came across it most recently in Tom Brady's athletic health book [0]. If I remember correctly, he states that you should drink double the amount of coffee consumed to offset the dehydration effects of coffee. This is simply to emphasize the ubiquitous nature of the myth, as he is someone who has presumably been surrounded by medical professionals for most of his athletic career, and who should have known better if what you say is correct. He singles out proper hydration as a major factor in his peak performance, something he claims younger athletes ignore. [0] https://www.amazon.com/TB12-Method-Lifetime-Sustained-Performance/dp/1501180738 https://www.amazon.com/TB12-Method-Lifetime-Sustained-Perfor...
        • UncleMeat 3y ago
          It does not surprise me even one bit that a professional athlete's book on health and nutrition contains health and nutrition myths, especially given other stuff that he has promoted.
        • the-dude 3y ago
          Do you have links to scientific sources acknowledging it?
      • karmakaze 3y ago
  • masklinn 3y ago
    > Biggest improvement to sleep quality I had was giving up caffeine, which isn't mentioned in this article. Probably because it’s the first thing which comes up when people complain about poor sleep. Caffeine consumption is certainly the first thing every doc I’ve seen asked about.
  • thomasfl 3y ago
    Giving up caffein is the single most important thing most people can do to improve sleep quality. Wikipedia says "Caffeine is the world's most widely consumed psychoactive drug", so it's obvious why coffee is so addictive for many. It is very hard to stay away from coffee, when it is literally everywhere. Somebody is always brewing coffee at the office, every street corner has a café, every meeting starts with someone serving coffee. It doesn't makes things better living in Norway, which has the worlds second highest coffee consumption per capita.
  • necessary 3y ago
    It has been incredibly hard for me to quit as the consumption of caffeine feels directly tied with work performance and mood for me. It also doesn’t help that I love the taste of coffee and the routine.
    • Balgair 3y ago
      There are a lot of good decaf coffees out there. Also teas. You don't have to give up the taste or the ritual to cut back on the caffeine, you don't even have to give up caffeine totally. You can cut down a lot on it too.
      • FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        All decafs I tried tasted like ass. And I buy quality beans from the hipster roasters.
        • eyelidlessness 3y ago
          Maybe see if one of those roasters mentions the Swiss water process. IME it makes for quite good decaf (and I too have a hipster’s taste in coffee).
          • IanOzsvald 3y ago
            In the UK I use Redber for beans, I drink decaf (Swiss Water prices) fresh ground in the afternoon and have 2-3 caf cups in the morning. Redber had a wide selection and several roast levels. No caffeine after noon. I use a 2-cup espresso Bialetti stove top, the second smallest.
          • tailspin2019 3y ago
            > Swiss water process Wow, I had never heard of this before. The chemical process for decaf had always put me off before. From their website: [0] > When you see the Swiss Water® name, it means your favorite roaster offers 100% chemical-free decaffeinated coffee. You may have just convinced me to switch to decaf... [0] https://www.swisswater.com https://www.swisswater.com
  • Balgair 3y ago
    I'll chime in here too. I gave up caffeine on a lark during lockdowns. Man, great decision. I've never slept better and my anxiety went way down too. I'd had no idea what that stimulant happened to be doing to my system. I had been tapering down my caffeine consumption too, but going cold turkey had a major difference for me. I'll caution that 3 days of pretty intense headaches were the cost, but for me, the benefits were immense. I still go through a coffee ritual-thingy in the mornings with teas, so that is still nice to have. Others in my family have tried this, but saw no real benefits, so went back on coffee. Your mileage may vary too. Still, I think it's worth a shot if you're having sleeping issues.
    • MuffinFlavored 3y ago
      teas have caffeine?
      • FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        Depends what you define as "tea" where you live. Black tea and green tea, like Earl Gray or Matcha, yes they have caffeine. Chamomile or tea of an other non-caffeinated plant boiled in water, no.
    • Bombinator 3y ago
      I don't understand going cold turkey. You said it had a difference for you. What was it? I've tapered off before, it probably took like a week at most and I experienced no headaches.
      • Balgair 3y ago
        Even at ~1/4th caf as my once daily cup, I still got ~3 days of headaches when I finally quit entirely. After that, I slept much better. I could finally fall asleep, it wouldn't take me an hour to nod off. I stayed asleep, I wasn't getting up 2-3 times a night. My anxiety, which I then found out contributed to my sleep problems, that pretty much went away. I used to plan and replan scenarios in my head, come up with pithy quips to conversations that would never happen, fear saying or doing the wrong thing in imaginary conundrums. It all just disappeared after I quit caffeine. I felt 'normal' for the first time in decades. I woke up having the best night of sleep in my memory. And then it happened the next morning, and the next. Currently, I don;t sleep all that well, but a new baby is the culprit. I can't imagine having a newborn and being on caffeine again, my anxiety would spiral out of control. I'd be a mess for my kid, projecting things, being a jerk. One of the best little random challenges I ever gave myself.
  • taylodl 3y ago
    I didn't have to go this far. No caffeine after 11 a.m. dramatically improved my sleep. I also limit myself to 2 cups of coffee per day.
  • zingababba 3y ago
    Same, quitting caffeine made a massive difference in my sleep. Daily consumer for 20 years, quitting suuucked and took me probably 20 tries but finally did it. My mind works so much better now.
  • superultra 3y ago
    I’m curious how much coffee you drank, and others who drank coffee, quit, and had similar results. I drink one 10oz cup a day. Occasionally more but rarely. I do love it. Knowing that everyone’s physiology is different, I wonder if I would generally see notable gains in quitting 1 cup a day. I find that the people who say quitting made a difference were often drinking a pot a day. But maybe that is not true for you?
    • swah 3y ago
      Yeah - I also always wonder if they also cut the Coke, chocolate, etc.
      • satvikpendem 3y ago
        I have cut out all forms of caffeine including soda and chocolate, yes. It's great, I feel well rested. If I want soda or chocolate, I make sure to have them before noon, but even still, it's actually noticeable the next day.
    • HalfCrimp 3y ago
      It certainly did for me. I was a regular espresso drinker, one in the morning with my wife before work and giving it up has made a world of difference. Even a coffee at 7am was impacting my sleep, I suspect I just metabolise caffeine slowly. I can still have a tea in the morning to replace the ritual, and chocolate doesn't cause me any issues (in moderation) so I'm not 100% caffeine free, but it's made a huge difference to my sleep quality and overall mood. The first week or so felt very sluggish, but one I was sleeping properly I now feel more alert and productive without coffee than I ever did with it. I still have one occasionally (~2 a month I guess) because I enjoy it, but I definitely notice the sleep impact that night and feel crap the next day.
  • boppo1 3y ago
    I'm down to one cup a day in the morning. If I quit entirely, how long until I should notice the benefits? A month?
    • ninesnines 3y ago
      I gave up caffeine (tapered off to one cup, was at 6 cups a day and I’m a small human) and I almost immediately noticed my anxiety levels cut by 75%. In terms of sleep, I didn’t notice a huge difference, but I also am not good about setting a calming routine before bed. If caffeine is playing a large role in your insomnia you should feel more able to fall asleep quite quickly . Caffeine can greatly increase cortisol levels and sometimes that can take some time to come down
  • lacoolj 3y ago
    don't know if it was after your comment or not but he has caffeine listed here (mentioned not drinking after 2pm)
  • baxtr 3y ago
    What I found out recently: people are different. Some people have a slow and some a fast caffeine metabolism. I’m a fast metabolizer. I can drink coffee very late and don’t feel anything. A friend of mine stops drinking coffee after 1pm because he won’t sleep otherwise.
    • dharma1 3y ago
      I have noticed it takes my body 12h+ to metabolise a single cup of coffee - if I haven’t had it for a while. This trait shows up in genetic tests https://www.23andme.com/en-gb/topics/wellness/caffeine-consumption/ https://www.23andme.com/en-gb/topics/wellness/caffeine-consu... While I love a good coffee, the sleep cycle mess it causes isn’t worth it for me except very occasionally - this also means there is no tolerance build up. I drink on average one cup of cappuccino every 1-2 weeks, and seek out the good stuff to make it worth it. You really notice the effects too this way vs drinking it daily.
• pluijzer 3y ago
  Also, and this might be obvious, turn off some time before going to bed. I am in the habbit of 'trying one more thing the fix this bug' before bed which makes me sleep simply terrible. Eating old cheese also helps for me but can make me feel groggy in the morning.
• tinyhouse 3y ago
  ~ My average sleep efficiency (time asleep vs time in bed) according to Apple Watch & Oura is ~85%, meaning to get my 7h30 of sleep to feel rested I will stay more than 10h in bed. That sucks! 85% of 10h is 8.5h :) To get 7.5h with 85% you need ~8.8h in bed.
  • vincelt 3y ago
    Oh wow, I'm terrible. Edited, thank you
• bjornasm 3y ago
  I think the biggest detriment to the quality of sleep is to start trying to improve sleep. It should not be a performance with self monitoring and evaluation.
  • Tenoke 3y ago
    The everpresent bad advice to get 8-9 or more hours of sleep definitely ruined my sleep experience for years when I'd keep trying and fail to do so.
    • amelius 3y ago
      Just change that advice into: spend 8-9 hours in bed.
      • quickthrower2 3y ago
        Input driven goals/habits are definitely better to stick to than result oriented ones.
    • totallywrong 3y ago
      Yeah as I get older my sleep cycle has naturally shorten. I wake up early most of the time, but come the weekend and that might be 2 or 3 hours later. Your body knows what you need, no need to force more bed time if you're getting proper rest.
    • bjornasm 3y ago
      Yeah agreed. You can get hung up on an idealization of a perfect nights sleep that is 8-9 hours, falling asleep at once, and not waking up untill morning, which is very rare and not at all nessesary for a good nights sleep. This will set you up for failure and lots of frustrations.
• scrollaway 3y ago
  Wow that graph… I’m jealous! As a non-24 the graph looks more like this: https://photos.app.goo.gl/pdsZmimGqKmKm4wE9 https://photos.app.goo.gl/pdsZmimGqKmKm4wE9 It has improved over the years since, thanks to melatonin (285 micrograms), sleep masks, and if all else fails, Xanax.
• iamsanteri 3y ago
  Drink one cup of coffee less per day, and stop it completely after 3PM. This was one of the many small things that helped me sleep better. There were more sinister things I discovered to be the true reason for my poor sleep. Something to do with poor mental health, but I’ll write about those some other time.
• oweiler 3y ago
  Things which improve my sleep tremendously: - be active (Walking, Running) for at least 20 min a day - do not drink coffee after noon
• currymj 3y ago
  there is interesting historical research, which pops up from time to time, showing that people in many cultures before the advent of electric lighting commonly slept in two phases -- about 4 hours, a couple hours awake, and about 4 hours. i think it gets too strong when people claim that this is "natural" or "better" or something. but the historical evidence suggests it's at least "okay", and if you sometimes wake up at 3am maybe just embrace this, get up, do something tedious, and go back to bed.
  • fjfuvucucuc 3y ago
    Myth.
    • currymj 3y ago
      has the historical evidence been reconsidered? i remember reading quotes from historical people who were all pretty clear that this is how they slept, and often implied they considered it not to be unusual.
      • fjfuvucucuc 3y ago
        Some people slept that way in pre industrial society. Doesn't mean everyone did.
    • voiper1 3y ago
      When searching, I find everyone referencing the two-sleep information - much based on Roger Ekirch. https://www.sciencealert.com/humans-used-to-sleep-in-two-shifts-maybe-we-should-again https://www.sciencealert.com/humans-used-to-sleep-in-two-shi... https://www.discovermagazine.com/health/dont-worry-if-you-cant-sleep-through-the-night-for-thousands-of-years-humans https://www.discovermagazine.com/health/dont-worry-if-you-ca... However, I did find this article from The Atlantic: https://archive.is/MYcgm#selection-1033.0-1049.105 https://archive.is/MYcgm#selection-1033.0-1049.105 >But humans have never had a universal method of slumber. A 2015 study of hunter-gatherer societies in Tanzania, Namibia, and Bolivia found that most foragers enjoyed one long sleep. Two years later, another study found that a rural society in Madagascar practiced segmented sleep. Two years after that, a study found that the indigenous residents of Tanna, in the South Pacific, largely had one uninterrupted sleep.
• Propelloni 3y ago
  My first reaction is, if I'd worry that much about my sleep I would sleep bad, too. Then again I don't think the OP has a very unusual sleep pattern. But if it bothers the OP, go get checked up. I would make it possible to be in the country where I have a doctor's appointment in three months if it is important to me.
• Uptrenda 3y ago
  Linking this here as it's still the best sleep supplement I've found: https://www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/comments/15ceths/timerelease_melatonin_microdoses_godtier_sleep/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Nootropics/comments/15ceths/timerel...
• Dowwie 3y ago
  I don't sleep enough. I don't usually have a problem with falling asleep as much as I do staying asleep. I've found Magnesium Glycinate extremely helpful with sleeping longer.
• bookaway 3y ago
  I don't use any of them, but I've heard firsthand from some like the author complaining about inaccurate data from devices like the Apple Watch and Oura, some getting rid of them due to this. Since the OP continues to use them, am I to understand there is no better alternative that is comparable on the comfort/ease-of-use/cost-effectiveness axis with these devices? The idea of making health decisions based on bad data makes me queasy, but do people who continue to use these devices despite knowing their inaccuracy still recommend their use because one shouldn't let "the perfect be the enemy of the good"?
  • FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    There's a Youtube channel from a Dutch researcher doing scientific tests on sleep and fitness tracking performance of wearables[1]. Ardently Apple devices and Oura are at the top in terms accuracy of what wearables can do, but if you want proper accuracy then you need to invest in dedicated sleep monitoring equipment as a watch on your wrist will never come close to electrodes on your head. [1] https://www.youtube.com/@TheQuantifiedScientist https://www.youtube.com/@TheQuantifiedScientist
    • bookaway 3y ago
      Thanks, will check it out. Just yesterday, someone was complaining about having gone a hike and his watch registering 10k distance, while the watches of the two others registered 6k. Was wondering how common a problem that was before I came across this article.
    • vincelt 3y ago
      I love his channel and comparisons but at the end of the day the tests are on a population of 1 and I guess accuracy can highly fluctuate between persons. Also in some videos I remember he was using the Dreem headband as comparison standard. I bought the Dreem 2 when it came out as it seemed like finally an accurate sleep tracker but the software and recording were very dubious: every night that didn't fit in a perfect sleeping pattern it failed to give any useful data. I ended up sending it back and wouldn't trust much the results after that.
    • 3y ago
• deleted 3y ago
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• say_it_as_it_is 3y ago
  High CBD cannabis flower, usually marketed as hemp, is not as helpful as full-spectrum 1:1 (CBD:THC) flower. I'm discovering that I'm reacting differently to each cannabis strain, some producing far longer hangover effects than others. It may be a case of personalized medicine, or maybe there actually are terpene profiles that lend to zero, if not low, hangover effects. There are strains marketed for daytime use, usually of the sativa variety, where as there are strains for night-time use, of the indica variety. Yet, I've found that 5 vape puffs of certain sativa-dominant strains yielding 8 hours of deep sleep with minimal hangover. Short-term memory, however, always seems to be affected regardless of what kind of flower is consumed.
  • totallywrong 3y ago
    Yes, this is my go-to in times where I've had trouble sleeping. It's rare, as I lift weights and don't drink coffee after noon, which gets me good sleep consistently, but if needed a few hits will knock me down for sure. I think the author's real problem is the constant change of environment, bed, etc. I've had the same thing happen to me when I've done that. The weather also plays a major role.
• Galicarnax 3y ago
  For about a year already, I use ASMR audio/visuals when I go to bed (strange, not even mentioned in the referenced post). I found they help me falling asleep (though, probably, not staying asleep). Also, not just any ASMR stuff does the job, there is a lot of ASMR junk out there. Plus, ASMR triggers differ in efficiency from one person to another, so I preliminarily assess if a particular recording might be good for me. Most of all, I like educational ASMR about history/culture/languages/etc.
  • cryptobruh 3y ago
    Never got audio working in the bedroom. Either the headphones are not comfortable or my wife gets annoyed. And it has to be something which I don't need to 'get rid of' after falling asleep like headphones or so.
    • Galicarnax 3y ago
      Absolutely. I forgot to mention - at around the same time I bought open earbuds (Samsung buds Live, to be concrete) which I found comfortable - they don't block external sound and I practically don't feel them in the ears.
• rapsey 3y ago
  Under Compounds D3 is missing. Magnesium, D3 and Glycine fixed all my issues.
• ndbe 3y ago
  Weightlifting and better nutrition really improved my sleep. I almost hibernate every night now, it's like a miracle.
  • andyborst 3y ago
    Running and a food diary. I found I was waking at night because of histamine intolerance. The food you eat has a huge effect on your circadian rhythms and it could last for days after eating a specific food. For me, it was fermented foods. The last four weeks, my moving average on sleep has been the best this year.
• iamthejuan 3y ago
  Some say earthing improves sleep as well.
• rwmj 3y ago
  Is there a sleep tracker (or general fitness tracker) which doesn't store my data in cloud services or require an account?
• sebra 3y ago
  My tactic for falling asleep just about anywhere is over-ear headphones (QC35) and a sleeping mask. Sleeping slightly on your side is no problem with QC35 and if the noise around you is low enough you don't even need white noise. The battery lasts a couple of nights too (esp with no white noise on). I've tried doing the same with Sonys over-ear but they make a loud noise when I move my head so they don't work for me at all. AirPods Pro work in a pinch but the battery runs out and my ears start hurting. Another thing which I find mildy helpful which wasn't mentioned here is Valerian. If my lack of sleep is stress-related Valerian works sometimes for calming. If my lack of sleep is due to bad routine / off schedule Melatonin works very well but if I'm stressed it does not work at all and leaves me groggy in the morning.
  • tinyhouse 3y ago
    Can you provide a link to Valerian? pills?
    • sebra 3y ago
      Yeah, pills. I'm a Swede so you'll probably need to look for a different brand if you're in the US. Here is the ones I buy: "Valerina Forte" https://www.fass.se/LIF/product?nplId=20090224000447&userType=2 https://www.fass.se/LIF/product?nplId=20090224000447&userTyp...
• manmal 3y ago
  Nasal strips are worth a shot too, if nasal airflow is a problem (eg nasal valve collapse or deviated septum). For sleep apnea, I think there was a post on HN recently that recommended trying a mandibular advancement device before trying sleep masks.
• mberning 3y ago
  They mention getting tested for sleep apnea and the difficulty of doing the study. It need not be difficult. I did an at home sleep study and got my results in a few days. It was easy and made a huge improvement on my sleep. Instead of getting up multiple times a night to pee, eat, or whatever, I generally stay asleep the whole time. On a side note, you can kind of do your own sleep study with a wellue/viatom o2 ring or checkme o2 max. It will give you a good idea of whether you should go down the sleep study path.
  • mattgreenrocks 3y ago
    Those devices look pretty nifty! I wish I could rent one though.
• gls2ro 3y ago
  I also have a light sleep. In my case, light sleep means that I wake up very easily to almost any sound or movement. I most of the time fall asleep very quickly but sometimes not. I tried most of the things shared in the article, and indeed, for most of them, it is hard to say if they improved or not over the long run. Here is one thing that worked for me: 1. I am doing 20 to 30 minutes of what I call light sports every day. 2. I take magnesium l-theonate and apigenin 1-2 hours before sleep. 3. I lost about 10kg, from 100kg to about 90kg. 4. I eat something light around 6 PM. What do I mean by light sport? For me it measn zone 2 running or I adapted some HIIT training to tone down a bit the intensity or walking a lot (when I am in vacation). Why 20 minutes to 30 minutes? I only have time for that. It may be better to do more, but that is the amount that I am sure I can commit every day. Why every day? For me, the effects of this started to kick in after 1 week or more. The first week of doing sport every day I slept well, but I also felt tired the next day. But after 1-2 weeks, I noticed that the tiredness during the day started to disappear. This is not a scientific study, so I am unsure if magnesium and apigenin have any effect or if it is just a placebo. I plan in the next period to not use them at all for 2-3 weeks and see the effects. I noticed that if I do this every day, my average sleep gets very good: I wake up less times during the night, the sleep is deeper. I fall asleep around 09:00 PM and wake up at 05:00 AM, fully energized.
• marginalia_nu 3y ago
  Something I've started doing that's had a very marked impact on my sleep is going for a walk each morning. I've always been very active at night (with terrible trouble falling asleep), and always been a zombie in the morning; but this seems to have shifted my wake cycle in such a way that I'm alert and productive during the day and tired at night instead. Hell of a thing.
• mfwgenerics 3y ago
  I'd like to see some deeper explanation around the following: > My average sleep efficiency (time asleep vs time in bed) according to Apple Watch & Oura is ~85%, meaning to get my 7h30 of sleep to feel rested I will stay more than 10h in bed. That sucks! 1. Where does the 10h figure here come from? It seems to me that 85% SE would reach 7h30 sleep hours at 8h50m bed hours (7.5/0.85). 2. What is an expected healthy sleep efficiency? Does 85% fall outside the normal range? 3. Where does the 7h30 target come from? If this is based on the standard adult recommendation of 7-8 hours, are we sure that this recommendation assumes 100% SE? If it doesn't, we're mixing different units.
  • vincelt 3y ago
    Corrected the post and bad math sorry! 1. ~10h is ~8.5h indeed + time to fall asleep (not counted in the % awake on Apple Watch) 2. Curious as well. 3. For me sleeping less than 7h30, I'll definitely feel it the next days. But I'm early 20s and I guess it varies a lot. Good question about recommendations & efficiency,I always wondered about that.
• elric 3y ago
  OP briefly touched upon sleep apnea. Getting an early diagnosis for sleep apnea can be life changing and life saving. If you wake up exhausted, suffer from daytime sleepiness (especially if you're falling asleep at the wheel and stuff like that), or if you've had bed partners complaining about choking/gasping/snoring/dying, you'll want to get that looked at. No amount of supplements or yoga is going to make you feel better when you're waking up 20+ times an hour because you've stopped breathing. And I didn't see this mentioned anywhere, but a consistent sleep schedule/routine is also great. I'm better on a consistent 24:00-06:00 sleep schedule than I am on 23:00-07:00 one night, 24:00-08:00 the next night, etc.
• Kiro 3y ago
  For white/brown noise nothing beats the Bose Sleepbuds. They are the only earbuds I've tried where I can actually sleep on the side with my ear against the pillow.
• Tade0 3y ago
  There's one thing I didn't see mentioned: have your significant other remind you of some chores you promised to do. Sounds like a boomer joke, but there's an explanation why this works: our hunter-gatherer brains aren't equipped to deal with tasks without a clear survival-related reward, so they produce a feeling of tiredness/sleepiness instead to prevent us from wasting energy. I've been using this for years now. You need new types of tasks on a regular basis though, because the effect wears off with usage. One additional thing I can think of is cold, fresh air - or simply more oxygen per unit volume of air.
• bizzleDawg 3y ago
  Scanning through the comments, I was really surprised not to see the one thing that was ultimately the cure for bad sleep for me (in addition to the basics of "caffeine hygiene" and getting some exercise): 1) Get up at the same time every day. 2) don't nap That's it. I believe I originally read about it here: https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/sep/14/finally-a-cure-for-insomnia https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/sep/14/finally-a-cure-..., and implemented shortly after, so has been working for me for about 5 years.
• sod 3y ago
  Nice list. I second having better sleep with white/brown noise. Be careful with in ears though. Don't wanna catch an infection. Also rolling over one ear piece may wake you up again, sabotaging the sleep. I may add, as it's not mentioned in the article: co2. My 55m^2 flat barely stays below critical co2 levels without ventilation for a 7 hour sleep. So keeping all doors open is crucial and/or a window slightly open on the other side of the apartment. Closing the bedroom door - which I sometimes did when as I wasn't aware of this yet - was a recipe for a headaches and bad recovery. For waking up, having natural light or other sources of light turn on before the actual alarm clock rings is nice to feel better in the morning.
  • vincelt 3y ago
    Thanks, never thought about that, I'll sometimes wake up in the middle of the night with a sort of claustrophobic feeling and need to take a deep breath when there is no ventilation or windows open. Girlfriend always complain that I must leave everything open because of that. Do you use a Co2 meter to monitor?
    • sod 3y ago
      Yeah, I bought two co2 meters - one for each room - after a hackernews thread about losing cognitive function with rising levels. So I only bought them to improve work. Really wanted to know how often and long I have to open the windows. Often I closed the doors to sleep as the noise from neighbors woke me up sometimes. Was completely dumbfounded to wake up to >2000 ppm co2 in my bedroom. And my meter doesn't even go much further as anything above 2k is considered "get fresh air now". Now I only close the door to the bathroom and keep everything else open.
      • not_kurt_godel 3y ago
        I've had similar experiences after getting CO2 monitors as well. I suspect 80+% of people are sleeping with CO2 levels that are negatively impacting their cognitive function.
• tallanvor 3y ago
  Keep in mind that everyone is different, and there may come a point where you have to accept things as "good enough", but from my time seeing a sleep specialist, these are the best ways to improve your sleep quality: 1. Get up at the same time every day. Try not to push it more than an hour later on the weekends, or two hours on vacation. 2. The old adage about getting 8 hours of sleep isn't right. Many people don't actually need that much. 3. Don't go to bed until you're falling asleep (do your nighttime routine of brushing your teeth and such before this). 4. If you can't fall asleep after 15 minutes, get out of bed and do something until you feel like you're ready to fall asleep. 5. Your bed is for sleeping (and maybe sex). Nothing else. 6. Your room should be as dark as possible. Regarding #2, a compressed sleep schedule may help you. That is, if you're going to get up at 6am every day, try to aim for an 11pm bedtime. If you still have trouble, try 11:30, and then midnight. In some cases, it's necessary to go for extreme sleep compression - as little as 4 hours a night, but this is usually done as an in-patient program, and generally shows results within a couple of weeks. Caffeine, alcohol, and sugar can have a major effect on people, although everyone processes these at different rates. Cutting back or stopping consumption earlier in the day can make a big difference. Consistency is key, and if you're doing a lot of traveling, it's going to be much harder.
  • salad-tycoon 3y ago
    As a young man I tried polyphasic sleep. Basically it’s having a very small “core” sleep period with scheduled naps. Based on the idea of military and sailors having compressed sleep schedules. I did it for the wrong reasons (wanted to be awake to play games… yikes younger me) but it did work after initial difficulty. Also, it solved my insomnia for a good while after I quit it. Insomnia later came back a number of years later but I still have positive effects from it, like less anxiety regarding attempting to sleep.
  • nunez 3y ago
    #4 is a big one. The more time one spends in bed not sleeping or having the sex, the more likely it becomes that they will struggle with falling asleep. That said, some people are built different and can do all sorts of crap in bed and still sleep alright.
• patrulek 3y ago
  What about disabling wifi and phone completely + using grounding mat? Anyone tried?
  • daneel_w 3y ago
    Grounding mat? To sleep on?
    • patrulek 3y ago
      No, just to use for some time before bed.
• jonifico 3y ago
  In addition to what you mention: - If you have sleep apnea that might explain why you wake up in the middle of the night, and there are treatments you could try. - Wearing ear plugs (the ones that look like a screw) has helped me a lot, but I have to cut them to be able to sleep with them, since they do protrude from the ear and are uncomfortable. - There's a simple trick to fall sleep again in the middle of the night: Set a specific time in the morning to write down the thoughts that worried you the most, with possible solutions. When you wake up in the night, think that you will attend your thoughts only the morning at the time you have specified, with some time you will see how you can fall sleep easier. (This is part of the solutions to attend the rumination thoughts) - I highly recommend you watching this podcast with Matthew Walker, which is one of the most important scientist in this matter: https://youtu.be/gbQFSMayJxk https://youtu.be/gbQFSMayJxk - As I have suffered insomnia for 20 years, but have improved a lot in the latest years, this thread is based in my own research: https://twitter.com/JuanPabloSarmi/status/1688568449209917440 https://twitter.com/JuanPabloSarmi/status/168856844920991744...
  • wink 3y ago
    You do realize that a twitter thread is about as useful to many people as posting an internal Facebook link these days? To my surprise I can see the post and not a login window as most days, but there are no replies.
    • jonifico 3y ago
      Twitter or FB are not the best channel, but it's not easy to gain traction in any medium without a well stablished community, haven't tried other social networks yet, which one do you think could be better ?
      • huijzer 3y ago
        I understand the appeal and get myself pulled into it from time to time, but most people probably don't need social media. I'm typing this in the hope that I'll remember it myself too. The social media sites show people with millions of followers which appears appealing because they usually don't do much work for those followers. Basically free sales right? They just type a bit from their toilet. However, it's a power law. Getting to the number 1 inside some niche is extremely hard and requires hard work and some luck.
• formvoltron 3y ago
  also: Huberman says get light in your eyes in the morning and evening. This anchors your circadian rhythm. And if you take melatonin you only need 300 micro grams. Life extension brand sells these.
• dherikb 3y ago
  I will share what the changes that I did in my life to have a better sleep: - 7-8 hours of sleep; - Try to go to the bed at the same time everyday (for me around 22:00); - Go to the gym (weightlifting) 4 times a week; - Not have dinner after 19:30; - Not drink anything with caffeine;
• nicholasbraker 3y ago
  What worked for me: 1. Cut alcohol even the smallest amounts 2. Exercise 3. Stop overthinking stuff. Remember. When you're in bed, there's no use thinking about work/school as you're not there.. 4. Find a happy place in your mind
• tailspin2019 3y ago
  My main takeaway from this was not actually from the posted article, but from this person's technique of publishing (unfinished?) draft articles on their blog [0] with a prefix of "[draft]". For someone who struggles to finish blog articles, this seems to be a stroke of genius. I might have to try it. I can't help thinking that once you've published something, the impetus to complete or polish it may be higher too. [0] https://vincelwt.com https://vincelwt.com
  • nicbou 3y ago
    You might like the concept of digital gardens. Refining posts over time is part of the idea. https://maggieappleton.com/garden-history https://maggieappleton.com/garden-history
• specialist 3y ago
  Using an IR camera for (more) accurate data is a very smart strategy. Bravo. My insomnia-related anecdata: Spine surgery fixed my sleep hygiene. Most of my feelings of anxiety were being triggered by impingement of nerves in my spine. That physical sensation brought on my mental state. Which may explain why none of the pharmacological treatments worked for me. When I (finally) got surgery, most of my anxiousness was just gone. I share this because a) resolving insomnia is hard b) having a difficult to diagnose and treat dis-ease doesn't mean you're crazy and c) exactly no one any where suggested anything like what I experienced. I had all sorts of tests. I tried all sorts of drugs. I actually got the spine surgery to resolve a totally different problem. So. Whatever you're experiencing, never accept "no" or "i don't know". Someone, somewhere has the answer(s) you need. Keep looking.
• septune 3y ago
  Could you try sleeping with a weighted blanket and give us your feedback? It works very well for me.
  • vincelt 3y ago
    Interesting, what about it makes you sleep better?
• theandrewbailey 3y ago
  > It's just a bit hard to book a night at a clinic 3 mo in the future when I don't know in which country I'll be then. That might be the most first-world problem I've ever come across. Maybe frequent travel impacts sleep?
• Glench 3y ago
  I'm happy the author was so thorough on the physical attempts at reducing their insomnia! Since they seemed to have a lot of the physical figured out, my curiosity immediately goes to the mental. What is the quality of their minds when they wake up in the middle of the night? Do they have racing thoughts or perseverate on things? Also, this is a classic Vata disorder in ayurveda. An ayurvedic practitioner should be able help narrow down options without all the trial and error.
• nunez 3y ago
  Four things that doing six months of CBT-i (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy for Insomnia) taught me are: - Routine is EXTREMELY important (I.e. getting in bed and waking up at the same time, every day, even weekends) - The best way to associate the bed with sleep (and, thereby, falling asleep more quickly) is to ONLY use the bed for sleep and sex, - You're gonna have bad nights, but the key to preventing the insomnia from spiraling out of control is to remember that "you WILL go back to sleep; it's natural," and - Sleep drugs (zzzquil, trazodone, seraquel, ambien, etc.) used daily are a bad deal for most people Two visits with a bona fide sleep doctor taught me is: - it's probably sleep apnea, and - lots of people have it! I used to have a really hard time falling and staying asleep. My sleep patterns looked something like OPs, with lots of time asleep but even more time in bed. CBT-i fixed that. I needed to do it with a therapist to get the most out of it, but there is a free app in the App Store (CBTi Coach) that guides you through it. I have no issues falling asleep now, and my total time in bed (TTIB) is very close to my total time asleep (I.e. my sleep efficiency is very high). I still struggle with maintenance insomnia (staying asleep). As far as I understand it, this kind of insomnia is usually invoked as a protection mechanism against something that one's body perceives as a threat. I am (finally!) getting a sleep study done to verify whether it's sleep apnea or something behavioral.
  • Rewrap3643 3y ago
    Trazodone should not be compared with those other drugs. It is hardly anticholinergic, and it lacks many of the side effects of Seroquel or Ambien. It can actually improve sleep architecture; it acts as a slow-wave sleep enhancer. In addition, it may increase the "arousal threshold" in certain patients with sleep apnea. This translates into less disruptions to sleep overall. [1][2] Comparing this to something like Ambien- which disrupts sleep cycles and correlates with increased mortality overall- just isn't factual. [3] Anecdotally, a low dose of trazodone (25 mg) prevents sleep maintenance insomnia for me. You should definitely have a sleep study done regardless. Wishing you some restful sleep! [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30689583/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30689583/ [2] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25719754/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25719754/ [3] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30353805/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30353805/
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• erictd 3y ago
  I don't want to give up caffeine, but I have my two shots before 7 or 8am and that's it for caffeine. You didn't mention alcohol, maybe you aren't a drinker? Giving up alcohol for ~4 days definitely improves my sleep - no 2am wakeups, more dreams - but then it's the weekend again, whoops. If I can't fall back asleep after around 15-30 minutes, I get up and read for an hour; that always works. I try to think in terms of sleep cycles - did I get enough? can I get one more? I'm surprised a sleep mask doesn't improve sleep onset. I am addicted to my scarf eye cover's total darkness.
  • lacoolj 3y ago
    haha I should have scrolled before commenting. I brought up the alcohol thing too. totally agree. the sleep mask/something over the eyes was a huge thing for me about 5 years ago (that lasted about 5 years prior) and even now I have blackout curtains, though they don't fully block light on the edges. but if you're like me, you'll eventually ween off the eye covering without noticing why.
• mharig 3y ago
  What worked for me, when I had bad sleep due to too many thoughts: Vitamine B1, 300mg Already the first pill had an tremendous effect.
• bradlys 3y ago
  I like the table of trying things. Personally, I’ve found the majority of my sleep issues come from one problem and only one problem: stress. It’s almost the most easily correlated thing I can find for my sleep quality. I’m a light sleeper naturally but I am lighter the more stress I have. Outside of that, I found when I am particularly upset, I will wake up at very early hours and just be way more wide awake than I want to be. I can go to bed at 2am and wake up at 4:30am feeling quite awake but obviously very tired. If I am able to lower my stress then I find sleep gets much better and so does everything else. At the current moment, I am actually finding my body is getting progressively more sore everyday because I’m unable to get enough rest to recover from my workouts! Due to poor sleep, my lifts are incredibly unpredictable. One day I can do about four sets of ten then the other day I can only do two sets of 7. Sleep is hugely impactful for getting enough volume when in the gym. I can feel when my muscles just won’t respond to the signals I’m sending - or that my body won’t send the signals I’m asking for - whichever it is. Highly recommend making sure your stress is low because that has always been the biggest by far contributor to sleep for me. Everything else seems worthless in comparison.
• lacoolj 3y ago
  This is something I never think "anyone else is going through" and find out I'm completely wrong. It's all the things I experiment with in my head and keep to myself and here he's taken them all out and tabulated the data. I would like to add to his findings that alcohol (any amount at all) changes sleep quality for me very consistently (not staying asleep/lack of morning after "rested" feeling). Strange to me that it's not an item on his list but maybe he doesn't drink to begin with.
  • vincelt 3y ago
    Indeed I gave up almost completely alcohol. Will enjoy a few beers at gatherings every 2 months or so but in full consciousness that I’m sacrificing the following night.
• CrzyLngPwd 3y ago
  I used to think weed was the best sleep aid ever, but quitting coffee, alcohol and weed, and having a (organic) valerian root tea at ~6pm not only ensures I go to sleep but even if I wake in the night I will go right back to sleep.
• diziet 3y ago
  Using emoticons with different colors would make this more readable, ie: https://emojipedia.org/large-green-circle https://emojipedia.org/large-green-circle and https://emojipedia.org/red-triangle-pointed-down https://emojipedia.org/red-triangle-pointed-down Things to consider: CO2, timing of exercise, timing of eating (What does "Eating < 7pm" mean?), bed cooling (ie, 8sleep, ooler etc)
• anotherevan 3y ago
  If you listen to Humberman Labs podcasts[1] at all, you'll know he is a big advocate for going outside and getting some direct sunlight in the mornings (including no sunglasses). Recently saw a sleep specialist who also gave this advice (amongst other things). It wont have an immediate impact, but give it a few weeks. [1] https://hubermanlab.com/toolkit-for-sleep/ https://hubermanlab.com/toolkit-for-sleep/ Also, if you think you might have sleep apnea, and frequently waking up during the night is indicative, then do try and get a sleep study done.
  • SamPatt 3y ago
    Yet another example of the benefits of taking a daily walk. It's not a panacea, but at this point I think it should be considered as essential as showering, brushing teeth, etc.
• cabbagesauce 3y ago
  Biggest improvement in sleep quality happened to me, when I returned to intermittent fasting. For more than a year, I stopped doing it (along with the diet) and indulged myself in junk food, tasty things like ice creams, bakery et cetera. All that carbs and sugar overload made me stay awake overnight with no added value really. Eventually, I calculated the sleep stats — around 5,5 hours of sleep per night. Needless to say, I felt lousy and self-loathing a lot of mornings. Neither coffees, nor cold showers helped me to really wake up properly. Once, I cut off junk food again, returned back to 18/6 fasting cycle, I sleep like a baby. I shut down by 10.30 PM and awake by 7 AM or little bit earlier. Before the alarm goes off! Garmin watch reports, that I have good to excellent sleep quality with no wake ups: at least 2 hrs of deep sleep and 2+ hrs of REM. I drink around 2 regular mugs of coffee per day (around 20oz) and at least 1 liter of green tea. The rest is still water, so 2,6 quarts each day.
  • jossclimb 3y ago
    So the biggest improvement was likely more from you stopping eating of junk food (ice creams, bakery et cetera) than set a time window for eating?
    • cabbagesauce 3y ago
      Not really. I did intermittent fasting before and it helped me to loose 33 pounds in two months while maintaining low physical activity. But that comes along with the proper diet to achieve maximum results in shorter time. In general, significant calories past 10 PM lead to sleep issues. You get an energy boost, the digestive system is busy. So why would you feel sleepy.
• dhumph 3y ago
  I don’t see any mention of cold showers / ice baths. That seems trendy now and people suggest sleep improvements. I notice my restless leg has a lot to do with sleep quality.
• ilaksh 3y ago
  For the last several years, I wake up almost every morning after only 4-5 hours of sleep. Then I don't feel right during the day unless I am able to go back to sleep. It makes me think that theory of pre-industrial dual sleep periods may be true. It's also possible that I'm just older and have to urinate. Or the reflux issues that interfere with my breathing somewhat need to be cleared out. As far as falling asleep, I have found that Vitamin D3 can help quite a bit, if taken in an adequate dose.
  • dryrun 3y ago
    Sleep apnea has the symptoms of waking up in the night to go to pee, waking up in the night fully awake and sweating profusely during sleep. They are not always there, but if you have these, you may want to check with your doctor.
• firesteelrain 3y ago
  Pretty sure OP has apnea