7 ms·

There is another side to this. Whenever I have organized conferences, I end up receiving lots of requests for invitation letters, typically from researchers in

There is another side to this. Whenever I have organized conferences, I end up receiving lots of requests for invitation letters, typically from researchers in India, for Visa purposes. I absolutely understand this, and I have always done my best to accommodate these requests. But this is time-consuming, and it is very annoying when those researchers (who are sometimes also scheduled to speak) never show up, and never bother giving advance notification. I have since been told that this is a scheme that some people use just to get a VISA for Europe, and then use the time for vacation once they have all paperwork in order. This creates a bias against researchers from these countries (I have been told by colleagues not to accept requests to speak at conferences from researchers in India because they will "never show up"). Annoyingly, my own experience does somewhat confirm this "advice", and it is extremely unfair for the people that genuinely are interested in traveling to attend conferences.

xiaomayi 3y ago
Happened three times with some researchers that tried to use conference as the main vacation (and they wanted to get paid!!!). They never show up. I tend to delete all the requests for invitation letters from people that are not referred by anyone.
empeyot 3y ago
Would be interesting to know how many of these visa applications eventually get rejected. Also, maybe some sort of deposit to be returned when participant shows up would discourage abuse.
ekianjo 3y ago
Make them pay in advance and reimburse the fees if they show up. Problem fixed.
- yellow_lead 3y ago
  This creates a new bias against people who can't lend a conference $X,XXX for a flight and hotel.
  - threatofrain 3y ago
    Conferences are generally so expensive that early bird vs not is no longer the question at the forefront, but rather the sheer largeness of the number. Also early birds tend to save money on flights and conferences.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
nirbheek 3y ago
Very strange that this is your experience, because IME as an Indian who has to apply for Schengen visas 4-5 times a year it's actually easier to get a visa for tourism than to attend a conference or for business. You need to supply fewer documents for a tourist visa, there's lesser scrutiny, and in many countries you're more likely to get a longer-duration visa (6 months rather than exact duration) for tourism than for a conference or business. I have been denied a visa to attend business meetings in a Schengen country despite an explicit invitation from the concerned company registered in that country simply because the consulate couldn't believe that the meetings were scheduled over the span of ten days. They wouldn't even blink at a tourist visa for the same duration.
- i_no_can_eat 3y ago
  Very interesting to know, thanks. Let me then ask: if getting a tourist visa is simpler, is there any problem in asking for a tourist visa even if your intention is attending a conference?
  - brightball 3y ago
    This was my first question
  - thaumasiotes 3y ago
    On the basis of almost zero relevant knowledge, I would guess that if the conference is paying you to speak (or to do anything else), you'll be in violation of local law, but otherwise you're fine.
  - nirbheek 3y ago
    Yes, there are two problems: 1. You are misrepresenting the purpose of your visit and you can get deported and/or barred from entering the country. For example, you can be stopped and asked for your passport at any time (this has happened to me multiple times, even though technically it's against Schengen rules). 2. Visiting for 2-3 days makes sense for a conference, but it makes no sense for a vacation and you will raise flags. This would lead to a request for more information from the consulate plus a delay then a rejection, or just a straight rejection. The dumbest thing is that all this friction is completely unnecessary. The EU can copy the homework of other countries mentioned by the author of the post, but are unable to for unfathomable bureaucratic reasons.
vinay_ys 3y ago
[flagged]
- i_no_can_eat 3y ago
  > Painting an entire country as large and diverse as India with just one brush dipped in personal anecdotes is just flawed and biased thinking. I don't think that my comment did that. I'm precisely acknowledging that such bias already exists, and that the situation is indeed unfair.
danpalmer 3y ago
Could it be that their visas are rejected? I could understand not wanting to tell someone that I can't attend their conference because their country doesn't want me there, not exactly a nice thing to think about or admit to others.
Ar-Curunir 3y ago
If they have paid to register for your conference, it’s your duty to write those letters. I doubt people having speaking slots at the conference will just skip out to go vacation. It’s not like they can’t vacation after the talk. More likely that they just didn’t get the visa because European visa processes, while better than US ones, are just slow.
- pc86 3y ago
  It's not his duty to do anything, and he's explicitly saying people have accepted speaking slots then not shown up so your doubts are unfounded. Have you never attended a conference where there is a last-minute change in a speaker or talk? Theirs is not the first time I've heard of that happening, either.
  - throwaway290 3y ago
    Have you never attended a conference where a speaker was not from a developing country but didn't bother to show up anyway? I had I say charge more, take higher deposits if needed but be more hands on with all speakers (not discriminating against "global south"): get their precise arrival info, always be in touch about their status, meet at the airport, organize their accommodation, etc. So they have no chance to escape your hospitality
    - pc86 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - throwaway290 3y ago
        [flagged]
        pc86 3y ago
        I suggest you take a step back and think about how your comments come across so as not to unintentionally come off more harsh than you want. In fact what I was replying to was someone saying it was an event organizer's "duty" to write invitation letters for conference attendees for Visa purposes, which it is objectively not. The country is irrelevant, the economic development of the country is irrelevant.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
msaharia 3y ago
They couldn’t come because of any number of reasons: there wasn’t enough time to apply for visa because you issued the letter 1 month before the meeting, didn’t get visa, didn’t get visa on time, visa got approved but passport didn’t arrive on time etc. You also can’t get reimbursed in India without showing actual receipts of conference, hotel etc. You seem to think that your letter is a guarantee of visa. It’s not. Source: I’m an academic with both US and Indian experience.
soligern 3y ago
It’s trivial as an Indian to get a tourist visa to Europe. I really doubt this is a valid scheme since it’s harder to do than the regular way.
Arrath 3y ago
I'm a member of an organization that has moved to having each person who submits a paper for presentation sign an agreement stating that if they are selected to present at the conference, they will do so in person barring some act of god style event, on penalty of being barred from any further dealings with the organization. This was brought about purely from folks submitting papers to get something published in the conference proceedings and then promptly fucking off into the sunset without ever showing up to present.

xiaomayi 3y ago

Happened three times with some researchers that tried to use conference as the main vacation (and they wanted to get paid!!!). They never show up. I tend to delete all the requests for invitation letters from people that are not referred by anyone.

empeyot 3y ago

Would be interesting to know how many of these visa applications eventually get rejected. Also, maybe some sort of deposit to be returned when participant shows up would discourage abuse.

ekianjo 3y ago

Make them pay in advance and reimburse the fees if they show up. Problem fixed.

yellow_lead 3y ago
This creates a new bias against people who can't lend a conference $X,XXX for a flight and hotel.
- threatofrain 3y ago
  Conferences are generally so expensive that early bird vs not is no longer the question at the forefront, but rather the sheer largeness of the number. Also early birds tend to save money on flights and conferences.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

nirbheek 3y ago

Very strange that this is your experience, because IME as an Indian who has to apply for Schengen visas 4-5 times a year it's actually easier to get a visa for tourism than to attend a conference or for business. You need to supply fewer documents for a tourist visa, there's lesser scrutiny, and in many countries you're more likely to get a longer-duration visa (6 months rather than exact duration) for tourism than for a conference or business. I have been denied a visa to attend business meetings in a Schengen country despite an explicit invitation from the concerned company registered in that country simply because the consulate couldn't believe that the meetings were scheduled over the span of ten days. They wouldn't even blink at a tourist visa for the same duration.

i_no_can_eat 3y ago
Very interesting to know, thanks. Let me then ask: if getting a tourist visa is simpler, is there any problem in asking for a tourist visa even if your intention is attending a conference?
- brightball 3y ago
  This was my first question
- thaumasiotes 3y ago
  On the basis of almost zero relevant knowledge, I would guess that if the conference is paying you to speak (or to do anything else), you'll be in violation of local law, but otherwise you're fine.
- nirbheek 3y ago
  Yes, there are two problems: 1. You are misrepresenting the purpose of your visit and you can get deported and/or barred from entering the country. For example, you can be stopped and asked for your passport at any time (this has happened to me multiple times, even though technically it's against Schengen rules). 2. Visiting for 2-3 days makes sense for a conference, but it makes no sense for a vacation and you will raise flags. This would lead to a request for more information from the consulate plus a delay then a rejection, or just a straight rejection. The dumbest thing is that all this friction is completely unnecessary. The EU can copy the homework of other countries mentioned by the author of the post, but are unable to for unfathomable bureaucratic reasons.

vinay_ys 3y ago

[flagged]

i_no_can_eat 3y ago
> Painting an entire country as large and diverse as India with just one brush dipped in personal anecdotes is just flawed and biased thinking. I don't think that my comment did that. I'm precisely acknowledging that such bias already exists, and that the situation is indeed unfair.

danpalmer 3y ago

Could it be that their visas are rejected? I could understand not wanting to tell someone that I can't attend their conference because their country doesn't want me there, not exactly a nice thing to think about or admit to others.

Ar-Curunir 3y ago

If they have paid to register for your conference, it’s your duty to write those letters. I doubt people having speaking slots at the conference will just skip out to go vacation. It’s not like they can’t vacation after the talk. More likely that they just didn’t get the visa because European visa processes, while better than US ones, are just slow.

pc86 3y ago
It's not his duty to do anything, and he's explicitly saying people have accepted speaking slots then not shown up so your doubts are unfounded. Have you never attended a conference where there is a last-minute change in a speaker or talk? Theirs is not the first time I've heard of that happening, either.
- throwaway290 3y ago
  Have you never attended a conference where a speaker was not from a developing country but didn't bother to show up anyway? I had I say charge more, take higher deposits if needed but be more hands on with all speakers (not discriminating against "global south"): get their precise arrival info, always be in touch about their status, meet at the airport, organize their accommodation, etc. So they have no chance to escape your hospitality
  - pc86 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - throwaway290 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - pc86 3y ago
        I suggest you take a step back and think about how your comments come across so as not to unintentionally come off more harsh than you want. In fact what I was replying to was someone saying it was an event organizer's "duty" to write invitation letters for conference attendees for Visa purposes, which it is objectively not. The country is irrelevant, the economic development of the country is irrelevant.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

msaharia 3y ago

They couldn’t come because of any number of reasons: there wasn’t enough time to apply for visa because you issued the letter 1 month before the meeting, didn’t get visa, didn’t get visa on time, visa got approved but passport didn’t arrive on time etc. You also can’t get reimbursed in India without showing actual receipts of conference, hotel etc. You seem to think that your letter is a guarantee of visa. It’s not. Source: I’m an academic with both US and Indian experience.

soligern 3y ago

It’s trivial as an Indian to get a tourist visa to Europe. I really doubt this is a valid scheme since it’s harder to do than the regular way.

Arrath 3y ago

I'm a member of an organization that has moved to having each person who submits a paper for presentation sign an agreement stating that if they are selected to present at the conference, they will do so in person barring some act of god style event, on penalty of being barred from any further dealings with the organization. This was brought about purely from folks submitting papers to get something published in the conference proceedings and then promptly fucking off into the sunset without ever showing up to present.