8 ms·
> TRY TO SOUND FRIENDLY. > Say "please" and "thank you"... use emojis... I'll add to this one -- use exclamation points! It's actually ridiculous how effecti
by ketzo 3y ago
> TRY TO SOUND FRIENDLY.
> Say "please" and "thank you"... use emojis...
I'll add to this one -- use exclamation points!
It's actually ridiculous how effective all these little things are.
In my experience, men, engineers, and especially engineers who are men tend to think of this as unnecessary fluff. They often decline to add these little social niceties because to them, they sound inauthentic.
That's not a character flaw or anything! You have every right to feel that way. I do think it is just categorically wrong, though.
I don't know a better way to say it, but: you should really just start doing this. Even if it feels weird to you, it is incredible the degree to which it eases text-based interactions. Even if you aren't noticing it, I promise that other people are.
- TylerE 3y agoThat's a cultural thing. In many cultures exclamation points come across as demands/accusations, not emphasis.
- ketzo 3y agoThat's fair, I'm writing from a West-Coast-USA-tech-company perspective. An exclamation point from a partner at a law firm... probably hits a little different! But in more informal communication, I think exclamation points are good because they help convey tone and energy in a way that is often lacking. It helps break up a message that can otherwise feel flat and cold.
- Cushman 3y agoAs a data point, the last email we got from our closing attorney was a single sentence ending in a period. Much like this one. The same message ending in an exclamation point would have been substantially less nerve-wracking :grimacing:
- JohnFen 3y agoI think people forget that the written word has a tendency to come across stern unless you make an effort to soften it. I know I forget this. There have been numerous times even here on HN where people have thought I was being critical or argumentative when that wasn't remotely what I was trying to communicate.
- HPsquared 3y agoIt can be difficult to fine-tune the level of formality. Maybe another application for LLMs? "Conversation softener"
- fragmede 3y agoAbsolutely. Using ChatGPT to professionalize "fuck you, pay my" has been great for not actually saying that to someone's face.
- toasted-subs 3y agoMaybe bedside manners
- ketzo 3y agoIt's the easiest thing in the world to forget -- after all, you know how it's supposed to sound! How could they possibly misinterpret your very clear message? ;)
- maroonblazer 3y agoExactly. It's analogous to the game where one person taps out the rhythm of a melody and the other person tries to guess which song it is. It seems so obvious to the person doing the tapping, because their head is loaded with all the other context of the song; namely, the harmony and melody. None of that context is available to the recipient.
- barrysteve 3y agoIt is difficult to convey subtle meaning and tone in text. The more literal I make my sentences, the more easily I can unequivocally communicate a single meaning. I don't think it's a good writing technique to adopt, and I cannot wait until tonality and humour returns to global conversations by default. Usually you can rely on knowing what the person likes and their taste to effectively communicate nuance. Not as easy to do lately. The 'globalism culture' has waned and there's not much common ground to relate to across countries and cultures.
- 3y ago
- akomtu 3y agoHow do lawyers, doctors and actual engineers communicate? Do they use emojis?
- jcul 3y agoI would say a lot more verbal conversations and a lot more verbose longer form written communication, where the tone is formal anyway. I don't see many doctors and lawyers using real time IM like slack etc., which is generally a lot more conversational. I use emojies in slack, but I wouldn't use them in emails.
- OJFord 3y agoMy fianceé's a doctor, and from what I hear it's mainly indirect terse notes on patient files, and confrontational phone calls. (A only calls B to request something - imaging, transfer, whatever; B default doesn't want to do it, but might come around.)
- jimmaswell 3y agoWhat is "actual engineer" supposed to mean?
- akomtu 3y agoThose that build bridges.
- jasonmp85 3y ago[dead]
- tayo42 3y agoSurprised to see emoji. I feel like those almost always come across insincere when they're not expected. Idk why, maybe I'm the odd one.
- Aeolun 3y agoNot sure. I always use them as a stand in for facial expression.
- TylerE 3y agoI think the occasional emoji is ok, especially in chat, but excess, especially multiples of the same emoji in a row are just childish.
- Dalewyn 3y agoEmojis and emoticons in any serious piece of communication are simply unprofessional and insincere. Do not use them, unless your intent is actually to piss your recipient off. Textbook example is the recent fiasco over at Linus Tech Tips, where they even used an emoji in an email to Billet Labs saying they "accidentally" auctioned off Billet's stuff. Anyone worth their paycheck doesn't use emojis in business communiques.
- strken 3y agoIf your communication is straightforwardly positive you can use as many emoji as you want without much in the way of consequences. Sticking :tada: in a Slack announcement of good quarterly performance, or even an official blog post, is unlikely to upset anyone in the same way "You're fired! :fire:" would.
- sethammons 3y ago> "You're fired! :fire:" I snorted at that; thank you
- calderwoodra 3y agoWhat's your opinion of slack? Seems to be the gold standard of team communication platforms (all other platforms follow their lead) and emojis are an integral part of it.
- gsuuon 3y agoI used to do this as well, maybe a bit _too_ much. After reading an article somewhere (I forget which) that had just an absolutely excessive amount of exclamations I've toned it back down a lot. But for the folks who don't ever use it -- try it out! It doesn't mean you're shouting, it maps to basically a slight increase in tone.
- jtbayly 3y ago“try it out!” translates to an emphatic command, possibly shouted, to me.
- stevenhuang 3y agoDo you read fiction? I ask because if you interpret the above like this, I'd imagine you'd similarly misread or get confused often then.
- OJFord 3y ago> In my experience, men, engineers, and especially engineers who are men tend to think of this as unnecessary fluff. They often decline to add these little social niceties because to them, they sound inauthentic. I really hate to make such a clichéd and usually flawed argument, but can you imagine the reverse going down well? And if the male cohort (to continue this stereotype/generalisation/simplification) don't like it, it's only a 'social nicety' for the rest right? It's not at all obvious to me that that should be a goal. It's a lot easier to have your diverse group 'transmit' in the way they each prefer than it is to invert and have them use the others' preference - and it's not clear that that's better anyway? Especially if you're aiming for equity on the team, in which event it would be arbitrary, so why not go for easy. But really I think people are so diverse in personality and communication style that, especially on a people-you-actually-work-with sized team, gender is irrelevant even if you're correct about its link to exclamation marks, not least because there'll be so much else besides them. Something I have been doing semi-consciously is using question marks more, even though it was grammatically a statement. Sort of: I'm not ordering you to do this thing (I'm not in a position to anyway but maybe that's not clear) I'm just pretty confident in this, but you should feel able to correct or 'challenge' me. E.g. (code review context) I don't think we should wazzle the foobar here, because the splines aren't reticulated until L94. Vs. I don't think we should wazzle the foobar here, the splines aren't reticulated until L94?
- Cushman 3y agoThat’s a good perspective to bring! One question, though: do you think it would make the rest of your comment materially worse communication if you added just one excessively positive but non-load-bearing sentence at the beginning? Maybe something like “That’s a good perspective to bring!” Maybe that’s not the way you communicate most sincerely, the way it is for me and others. Maybe I sound insincere to you right now, in which case, please do say so! But all else being equal, if you knew that that single change would make me and others materially more receptive to the rest of your comment, would you consider just… doing it anyways, out of pure self-interest? Just food for thought :)
- OJFord 3y ago
- eastbound 3y agoAs an engineer, I’ve gotten used to being told off for …using exclamation points, or not using then actually, or using them a little. Apparently an exclamation point on a joke makes it aggressive. And at one age, I got popular, muscular. That’s long gone now, but when I was, I could write whatever I wanted and people didn’t find it offensive. I found it funny when I discovered that people no longer told me off for what I said, or wrote. Now at my age (and weight), I notice again people telling me that I didn’t speak properly of whoever, I ask them what I said, they say it’s not the words, it’s not the tone, it’s not the smile, it’s the intent. It’s almost as if engineer-men were the socialy lowlys, on which people could train their ability to explain how to others how they ought to behave better.
- 77pt77 3y agoIt's never about what is said, or even the "tone". It's about who said it and their status. Your status lowered and all of the sudden your "tone" was off.
- jimmaswell 3y agoThe world goes back to the stone age without engineers. Our status should be inherently much higher. Imagine if we all went on strike for it at once, we'd get what we wanted in days as none of the people looking down on us could get anything done.
- shultays 3y ago! can easily mean sarcasm A: Hey, it looks like there is this and that issue that is caused by one of your submissions. Can you fix it? B: Sure A: Thanks! Was that thanks genuine? Or sarcastic because A spent half a day trying to figure out what is going on
- refulgentis 3y agoExtreme outlier, I'd say best described as you are saying 0.0001% is could
- stevenhuang 3y agoIf A is routinely known to be sarcastic, then yes. Otherwise there's no reason not to read it charitably and take it as a genuine thanks.
- pxc 3y agoI'd never read that as sarcastic.
- watwut 3y agoTo me this sounds like completely normal and polite exchange. A is notifying about issue, B is cooperative and A is polite. A is not super duper thankful or about to bring you a chocolate. That is neither sarcasm nor fakery, just normal communication.
- drewcoo 3y ago> You have every right to feel that way. I do think it is just categorically wrong, though. "You have every right to feel the way that you do, even though I think what you feel is wrong?" Seriously? Is that sarcasm? Trolling?
- doix 3y ago> I'll add to this one -- use exclamation points! Ha, I've got a funny anecdote about exclamation marks. My now girlfriend (she wasn't at the time) asked me once why I was always yelling in text. I had to ask her what she meant, and she said I used exclamations so much she thought I was always angry. So I guess becareful with using them too often, it could be taken the wrong way also :).
- sethammons 3y agoMy former boss replied to her cousin over text "ok!" The cousin took that as yelling and anger not the (what I consider obvious) intended enthusiasm. He didn't talk to her for a really long time and when they finally talked about it he didn't accept the answer and stayed angry. People are odd.
- xboxnolifes 3y agoA manager of mine in the past used exclamation marks and emojis a lot. I never grew to trust the "friendliness" of it. The use of emojis and exclamations over the trivialist things made very interaction feel forced.
- lostlogin 3y agoWhen the topic is serious, use of exclamation points, ellipses, emoji or caps makes it seem like the other party doesn’t take the situation seriously.
- User23 3y agoWow ur totally rite! <3 <3 ^_^!!!
- JALTU 3y agoCall it emotional mirroring. ;)
- ransackdev 3y agoLook at that subtle off white coloring — the tasteful thickness of it. Oh my god, it even has a watermark.
- tamimio 3y ago>In my experience, men, engineers, and especially engineers who are men tend to think of Not necessarily, I’ve worked with engineers/men who used emojis as a passive aggressive response, goes like “oh no, not like that, it’s XYZ :)”
- sethammons 3y agoCan you expand on that? Why is that passive aggression?
- tamimio 3y agoProbably I should’ve added more context, but it usually come through the conversation in a “dismissive” manner or a way to signal “you were wrong and idiot”, and I also noticed it’s different among the age (older people don’t care or notice) and culture (Chinese for example take it as an insult), I don’t have an example but goes like this: Person A: I turned on the PC and have a blue screen. Person B: No you can’t do that, you have to plug Y first then turn it on :)! Or something along the lines, I can’t remember an example right now but I’ve seen it firsthand, give a look at this it might gives you some more context https://www.wbez.org/stories/the-rundown-since-when-are-smiley-emojis-passive-aggressive/a12d68ee-1171-4c3a-91d3-7989496d8dba https://www.wbez.org/stories/the-rundown-since-when-are-smil...
- sethammons 3y agogotcha, I can see where you are coming from. fwiw, I tend to end potentially negatively received comments with a smile to let the person know I'm not angry or anything, just happy to be helping :)
- ransackdev 3y agoI feel almost as if this comment was designed to bother people. Personally, I’m rarely if ever so excited about something at work where I’d feel the need to add “!”. I’m sorry but I don’t get pumped about things that often at the place I have to be at so I can afford to feed my family. If I use “!” at work it’s never about work related conversation, and is almost exclusively used to show excitement for or to congratulate a coworker on a work or personal achievement. Short of celebrating with a coworker in their excitement for something, using “!” in the context like what you’re suggesting, ie “Sure, I’d love to help!” feels insincere for me to say, because I’m not actually excited, and personally I know that my coworkers who knew me in the slightest would also read that as insincere, possibly passive aggressive, or just kiss ass. We don’t need to be enthusiastic about doing shit at a place we wouldn’t choose to be at if we didn’t have to, which wastes the biggest parts of our lives.