14 ms·

Police raid of a Kansas newsroom raises alarms about violations of press freedom

367 points by bratgpttamer 3y ago

jtode 3y ago
[flagged]
- draw_down 3y ago
  [dead]
jsnell 3y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37102271 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37102271 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37096015 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37096015 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37105764 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37105764 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37120188 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37120188
- neilv 3y ago
  At least one of those is currently buried on 3rd page, despite "110 points by uptown 1 hour ago | ... | 19 comments". It sounds like a tragic and suspicious situation, and what I'm most curious about (since this is HN) is whether the federal government will step in, and figure out what's going on.
  - 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
    Every one of these turns into a flamewar of cynical "America bad, corruption is the norm, there is no free press, etc." comments.
    - giraffe_lady 3y ago
      really makes u tink huh
    - paulmd 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
        A police chief in my state was just convicted of sexual harassment https://news.yahoo.com/litchfield-chief-relinquishes-police-certification-225600784.html https://news.yahoo.com/litchfield-chief-relinquishes-police-... I think people very badly want their cynical worldview to be true
        s1artibartfast 3y ago
        We also have a robot court system where warrant applications are examined in cases get thrown out all the time for improper search and seizure. There have been tons of cases where falsified data has been discovered causing hundreds of cases to be reheared
    - gettodachoppa 3y ago
      As a foreigner, if I could, I'd downvote it if only because it's local news being blown up all over HN, presumably because it's a slow news week. I just don't care. This isn't speaking to some trend in America. It's a hamlet's local drama. Do we really need 2 posts a day? Btw, from what I got by glancing past the comments in the original post, whoever runs this newspaper is a total rat. What started all this is the newspaper snitching on a self-employed woman who lost her driver's license 15 years ago, and telling the police she's still using it for her job. This doesn't excuse the raid, but god I hate petty small town people.
      - burnerburnito 3y ago
        You're calling them "total rats", yet you say that you haven't read the article and only glanced at it. How is that a basis for making such a bold claim? To quote you further, you claimed they were "snitching" and that "god i hate petty small town people". Perhaps these could be more valid claims about some truly trivial squabble, but the woman in question has previously been driving while DUI (driving under the influence; usually alcohol in America, since you claim to be a foreigner and may have different legal terminology in your nation), severely endangering the lives of others as is well-established by decades of studies on the increased risks of accidents (especially lethal ones) by drivers who are intoxicated on alcohol. Moreover, in America DUI laws are (in this writer's opinion) extremely relaxed. One minor DUI with nobody harmed absolutely does not stop you from getting a license -- the penalty for kansas is 30 days minimum and needing to use a special device to test one's breath's alcohol levels before starting their car. Even if she got a lengthy suspension, which I haven't deeply researched into (though by your own admission, neither did you), she made the choice to endanger others' lives significantly and would have then had potentially up to 15 (or let's say 14, to presuppose a year of suspension) years to attempt to get a valid license, an inexpensive process. Instead, she kept driving without a license, and with a proven history of making poor decisions where other peoples' safety and rights to life are involved. Might she also have lacked insurance? Then in the event she caused any crashes or accidents, the outcomes could be even harder upon the victim. Now, some of these issues reflect deep systemic problems with American justice, law, poverty, education, and public transportation / city planning. However, this immediate article and situation is not something so simple or vulgar as "total rat(s)" or "snitching", and I'd even beg the question of if a situation is really "snitching" when it may be actually probing if the police are suddenly complict in ignoring a crime they might be happy to use against someone else once it suits them. Likewise, I believe you're greatly lowering the quality of dialogue on hackernews by this sort of impulsive response. If I've gotten anything wrong, I'd be happy for you to specify, but what you've written only serves to confuse others about the truth. I may be wrong about such a developing story too, but please consider that I've attempted to broadly make my claims search-able or referencing specific parts of things you or the newspaper have said. P.S. I'm well aware nobody (else) is likely to read this, but decided I'd spend 20 minutes writing on the subject in case of other readers like myself who tend to go over old hackernews comments looking for insights on events that may have been ignored by corporate or mainstream media reporting. Or, TL;DR There appears to be nothing of substance to these claims, move along.
sixothree 3y ago
Checks and balances are needed.
- plagiarist 3y ago
  I fear this will be another egregious violation of the Constitution ignored under qualified immunity. Prosecuting egregious violations of the Constitution instead of allowing police to do whatever they like would be a good check/balance.
  - indymike 3y ago
    > I fear this will be another egregious violation of the Constitution ignored under qualified immunity. The police officers, individually can have qualified immunity. The governments that employ them do not.
    - mrguyorama 3y ago
      Which nicely transfers accountability away from the individuals doing unacceptable things, to the city itself, which cannot go to jail and can pay any penalty through taxes to the same people said penalty is meant to help. What a good system.
  - ROTMetro 3y ago
    There needs to be a requirement that Police are insured. The city/county shouldn't pay the bill for poor personal behavior of police with a side of accountability in the form of keeping insurable.
    - mrguyorama 3y ago
      No, just put bad fucking cops in jail. We don't need some damn market of insurance for criminal behavior just because we are so unwilling to hold powerful people accountable, we just have to finally stand the fuck up and demand accountability! The only reason to favor the insurance scheme over, you know, actual justice, is if you stand to profit from it.
myself248 3y ago
If the article is even half accurate, they must be using a different definition of "identity theft" than the one I understand.
- bratgpttamer 3y ago
  Also, the classic "doing crimes with a computer" (performing a query on the DMV website)
  - dmix 3y ago
    It sounds like more than just a public records search, someone sent them information about her DUI: > Newell said she believes the newspaper violated the law to get her personal information as it checked on the status of her driver’s license after a 2008 drunken driving conviction and other driving violations. > The newspaper countered that it received that information unsolicited, which it verified through public online records. It eventually decided to not run a story because it wasn’t sure the source who supplied it had obtained it legally. But the newspaper did run a story on the city council meeting, in which Newell confirmed that she’d had a DUI conviction and that she had continued to drive even after her license was suspended.
    - bratgpttamer 3y ago
      I also read that the source who sent the information about Newell bragged about retaining "connections" in law enforcement, a hint that it might have been non-public information. There's also "dozens" of anonymous tips about the police chief's sexual harassment issues. However, I'm not sure "verifying a rumor via public records" is what the various "using a computer to do crimes" laws are about, especially because my understanding of various public records and registry searches are precisely to allow the public to verify these kinds of rumors. Reading between the lines, it seems that they were most interested in unmasking the identities of these anonymous sources and sending a message to the newspaper.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
  Are there any details about those allegations? I'd be interested to see what the warrant gave as cause. We seem to be jumping to the conclusion that these journalists are innocent.
megabless123 3y ago
The police cannot be reformed
- draw_down 3y ago
  [dead]
findalex 3y ago
Sounds like this restaurant owner has some friends high up on the force?
- madcow2011 3y ago
  That's exactly what I was thinking. Either the judge who issued the order or something like that.
- flutas 3y ago
  There's also the relationship between her and the county attorney. > County attorney Joel Ensey, whose brother owns the hotel where Newell operates her restaurant
  - bratgpttamer 3y ago
    It looks like Newell was using Tammy Ensey's liquor license, which is non-transferrable and expires later this month. [1] https://peabodykansas.com/direct/restaurateur_accuses_paper_councilwoman+5447newell+52657374617572617465757220616363757365732070617065722c20636f756e63696c776f6d616e https://peabodykansas.com/direct/restaurateur_accuses_paper_...
remote_phone 3y ago
Who has authority to investigate the police department for this obvious corruption? Can anyone be held accountable?
- tootie 3y ago
  Basically go up the food chain. This corruption is probably more on the magistrate who signed the warrant than the police who served it, but that gets investigated by the state or the DOJ.
- hyperpape 3y ago
  I can’t vouch for it, but the article I read yesterday stated that the police department violated a federal law governing how law enforcement seizes information from journalists. If so, the feds could become involved.
- stevespang 3y ago
  [dead]
- sorrytobedark 3y ago
  Unfortunately probably no one, hence heavy vigilantism in the past which is starting to recur.
- vel0city 3y ago
  Often the FBI will get involved when they hear about corruption. https://www.fbi.gov/about/faqs/does-the-fbi-investigate-graft-and-corruption-in-local-government-and-in-state-and-local-police-departments https://www.fbi.gov/about/faqs/does-the-fbi-investigate-graf... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobbs_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobbs_Act Really goes to show you how wide interstate commerce clause goes.
- mcpackieh 3y ago
  The FBI, but they're too busy grooming mentally disabled people into fabricated terror plots, because real terrorism is far too rare to justify their inflated headcounts and budgets. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/nov/16/fbi-entrapment-fake-terror-plots https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/nov/16/fbi-entrapment... https://theintercept.com/2015/07/13/another-terror-arrest-another-mentally-ill-man-armed-fbi/ https://theintercept.com/2015/07/13/another-terror-arrest-an... https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a47390/alabama-isis-peyton-pruitt/ https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a47390/alabama-isis-pe... https://thefreethoughtproject.com/the-state/fbi-frames-mentally-challenged-teen-suspected-terrorism https://thefreethoughtproject.com/the-state/fbi-frames-menta... https://www.democracynow.org/2015/3/19/how_the_fbi_created_a_terrorist https://www.democracynow.org/2015/3/19/how_the_fbi_created_a...
helsinkiandrew 3y ago
> "It is true that in most cases, [the Privacy Protection Act] requires police to use subpoenas, rather than search warrants, to search the premises of journalists unless they themselves are suspects in the offense that is the subject of the search," Cody said. Presumably the restaurant owner accusing the newspaper editor of identity theft gives good cover for the police chief to get a warrant and search for anything else (ie information about investigations into himself). That does give a veneer of legality to the raid.
- flutas 3y ago
  > That does give a veneer of legality to the raid. I would have agreed, if it hadn't been for the County Attorney (who according to their website is "the chief law enforcement officer in Marion County."[0]) putting his foot in his mouth, and the paper exposing the relationship between him and the restaurant owner. It makes it pretty clear what actually is going on here. > A Record reporter later requested a copy of the probable cause affidavit necessary for issuance of the search warrant. > District court, where such items are supposed to be filed, issued a signed statement saying no affidavit was on file. > County attorney Joel Ensey, whose brother owns the hotel where Newell operates her restaurant, was asked for it but said he would not release it because it was “not a public document.” --- [0]: https://web.archive.org/web/20230215034526/https://www.marioncoks.net/attorney https://web.archive.org/web/20230215034526/https://www.mario...
  - bilbo0s 3y ago
    Slightly off topic, but how do you get to be a county attorney, and still be this oblivious to propriety? Did he believe nothing would come of this and it would all just go away? I honestly can't see how anyone with a law degree would have even touched this situation under the same circumstances. Journalists? Preexisting business relationships that are documented and freely available to the public. Jeez, at least hide stuff in holding companies or trusts or something. What were these guys doing?
    - flutas 3y ago
dfxm12 3y ago
Hopefully it also raises alarms about corrupt cops and Qualified Immunity.
- stevespang 3y ago
  [dead]
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
wishfish 3y ago
There's been some interesting updates to the story. The Marion Record was in the process of investigating the Marion police chief. He used to work for the Kansas City (MO) PD. Allegedly, he was demoted for "sexual misconduct" before he quit and came to work for Marion. This reveal comes in an interview of the Marion Record's publisher. It's an interesting read and he's an interesting guy. One of the old school reporters, in a very good way. https://thehandbasket.substack.com/p/a-conversation-with-the-newspaper https://thehandbasket.substack.com/p/a-conversation-with-the... The other new development is the Kansas Bureau of Investigation revealed they were part of building the case against the newspaper. KBI didn't participate in the raid, but were otherwise working with the Marion police. https://kansasreflector.com/2023/08/13/kbi-director-on-marion-county-newspaper-raid-media-is-not-above-the-law/ https://kansasreflector.com/2023/08/13/kbi-director-on-mario...
- dmix 3y ago
  I was curious if seriousness of it was related to the restaurant hosting the Kansas congressman at the time (which the journos were kicked out of then wrote a follow up story about the restaurant owner). Maybe whoever invited him had some connection to both the politician and the owner, and the congressman helped kick it upstairs? This is just speculation though.
- mannykannot 3y ago
  The KBI might now be wondering if the Marion police chief was being entirely forthcoming about what was going on when he sought their assistance.
mynameishere 3y ago
[flagged]
LatteLazy 3y ago
As I understood it, the first amendment has been hedged to protect what papers can publish. But it does not protect how or where they get the information. The result is that courts and the police both can and will raid offices, seize materials etc. The only protections against this are (a) getting it published before you're raided and (b) whatever respect for the spirit of the constitution you can inspire in judges or maybe lawmakers to try and codify these things. Is that wrong? I am asking here about the actual interpretation of the law, not the "ideal world" scenario... This is the best case I could find: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branzburg_v._Hayes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branzburg_v._Hayes
- gwbrooks 3y ago
  As a clarification: Freedom of the press under the First Amendment doesn't confer special protections on journalists. Rather, it protects the rights of all Americans not merely to speak freely, but to write freely as well.
- empath-nirvana 3y ago
  > The result is that courts and the police both can and will raid offices, seize materials etc. The police can and will do all kinds of illegal things, regardless of the law. It's up to the courts and DoJ, etc, to sort that out after the fact, there's not much anyone can do before it happens.
  - ROTMetro 3y ago
    And ironically, the courts and DOJ tend to not do anything unless publishers shine a spotlight on it. Luckily the internet has done away with most local news making everyone in the chain's life easier.
  - LatteLazy 3y ago
    As far as I can tell, nothing here was illegal. That's sort of the problem...
jjk166 3y ago
For reference this is the form for requesting motor vehicle records in Kansas [0] It asks for "your" information to find the record, but based on the allowed uses you can definitely get records for other people. I would say a journalist accessing DUI records would fall under permitted use case M. That accessing this is identity theft is a farcical claim. [0] https://www.kansas.gov/ssrv-mvr-ltd/ https://www.kansas.gov/ssrv-mvr-ltd/
- dmatech 3y ago
  I'm not saying this happened here, but if a journalist engaged in hacking or fraud to obtain material to publish, that would be "journalism", but it would also be a crime (the research, not the publication). Obviously, the freedom of the press doesn't include the ability to do anything they want in pursuit of a story.
  - jjk166 3y ago
    No one is arguing that journalists are not bound by laws, the issue here is that not only is there no proof they broke any laws here, but even the idea that they might have is laughable, given that this was a public database they had permission to access. It's like accusing someone walking out of a public library with a book is a thief who stole the book.
- myself248 3y ago
  Exactly. Obtaining information about someone is not identity theft. It might be stalking, it might be journalism, it might be credit-reporting, but it is not identity theft. Pretending to _be_ someone, _stealing their identity_, is identity theft. Absolutely nothing in this story sounds like that, and it sounds like the warrant is entirely farcical.
  - hiatus 3y ago
    I think it depends. Reading the form, if you filled it out and clicked the "I am requesting my own record" button, that's holding yourself out as though you were the person whose records you are requesting, which certainly seems like it could be construed as identity theft.
FrustratedMonky 3y ago
"Try That In A Small Town" <Edit> Need to explain reference. There is a video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1_RKu-ESCY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1_RKu-ESCY It kind of glorifies small town justice/vigilantism. Like, the rest of the country is falling apart, but the small town wouldn't let that happen (wink, wink). https://www.npr.org/2023/07/20/1188966935/jason-aldean-try-that-in-a-small-town-song-video https://www.npr.org/2023/07/20/1188966935/jason-aldean-try-t... But then the original post, story about small town sheriff raiding a newspaper kind of shows indications of small town corruption. So the point is about the dichotomy of 'small towns' being pure and glorifying taking "American Justice" into their own hands, and also how they can corrupt those same values. The original post is a counter story about how things can go wrong there too. You can have small town 'justice' also take the form of actions that go against American Values like freedom of speech.
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  This is the exact style of "justice" that "Try that in a small town" wants. I've been in those small towns. They are always about the people who are friends with the cops. From petty corruption like not giving the local alcoholics DUI citations, to helping their friends weed grow op, small town cops are fabulously corrupt, and there's really no standards that they are supposed to be held to. Remember, hanging negros for looking at women is what would happen in a small town in america.
Kapura 3y ago
This is really, really upsetting to be happening in my country. I know it is a very big country, and Kansas isn't exactly proximate, but we are either a country that protects the press, or we are a country where the press protects those who have power. If this is allowed to pass without the people ordering the raid fired, I am not optimistic about what the future holds.
- the_optimist 3y ago
  Our press doesn’t even protect the press at this point. We have all seen the tables pairing heads of each major news outlets with their respective political spouses, siblings, or parents. Gellhorn prize winner Julian Assange has been persecuted by the US intel complex for well over a decade. The choice is in your hands to continue to attribute credibility to institutions that may no longer merit it.
  - xadhominemx 3y ago
    The fact that a raid on a tiny kanas newspaper is a major national story is a sign that the press is pretty interested in protecting the press.
    - dotnet00 3y ago
      I disagree. All it shows is that national media outlets don't see the tiny newspaper as a threat. They consider independent reporting (eg YouTubers) to be the main threat, thus why we don't really see them making national headlines out of their suppression and why they even go out of their way to exclude them from their definition of press.
      - xadhominemx 3y ago
        Social media algorithmic recommendation engines has also been a major story. Or are you talking about a US law enforcement raid on some YouTuber that was successfully covered up by Google?
CatWChainsaw 3y ago
The Streisand Effect is a real bitch, ain't it... Traumatizing a 98yo woman to death also doesn't help the police's image.
- bratgpttamer 3y ago
  "Cops raided a smalltown newspaper so no-one would ever find out about police chief Gideon Cody's alleged sexual misconduct or Kari Newell's DUI conviction" https://boingboing.net/2023/08/14/cops-raided-a-smalltown-newspaper-so-no-one-would-ever-find-out-of-about-police-chief-gideon-codys-alleged-sexual-misconduct-or-kari-newells-dui-conviction.html https://boingboing.net/2023/08/14/cops-raided-a-smalltown-ne...
thinkcontext 3y ago
On top of the judge signing off on the warrant when this likely contradicted federal law, we have this: > When the newspaper asked for a copy of the probable cause affidavit required by law to issue a search warrant, the district court issued a signed statement saying no such affidavit was on file, the Record reported. Not a lawyer and I know it takes quite a lot for a judge to be disciplined but that would seem to be something a judicial conduct board would want to look at. https://apnews.com/article/marion-kansas-newspaper-raid-aca057365ea3925328a69acd615c9893 https://apnews.com/article/marion-kansas-newspaper-raid-aca0...
- millzlane 3y ago
  In my probable cause affidavit in Baltimore fabricated by the GTTF, They said they found white powedery residue in my garbage, but noone in the household consumes any while powedery drugs certainly not enough for there to be a garabge bag full of evidence to get a warrant. But somehow it happened in Baltimore too, "The greatest city in America!"[1] [1] https://www.wypr.org/2023-01-23/whats-with-those-the-greatest-city-in-america-benches https://www.wypr.org/2023-01-23/whats-with-those-the-greates...
  - tehwebguy 3y ago
    Another reason all police support the war on drugs: they can just plant some on you whenever they want to frame you for a felony — or just say they thought you had some to get a free warrant.
  - deadbeeves 3y ago
    Even if there was white powder in the trash, there's an enormous number of substances and products that appear as white powders when desiccated.
  - evanelias 3y ago
    That's terrible, sorry that this happened to you. At least those GTTF officers got caught eventually. I assume you've read or watched "We Own This City"? I'd be curious about your take on it. Side note but I remember when they first rolled out that Baltimore bench slogan... I vaguely remember some explanations that the previous slogan ("The City that Reads") was also rather "aspirational", given the illiteracy rate.
mkovach 3y ago
Seems to me this might be plain old intimidation. The folks involved, which includes the Police Chef, see that somebody is leaking information to the press and a trying very hard to find they leak(s). Since they can't figure out who, and the press isn't publishing anything they are cranking up the heat. In both cases he says that they are investigating allegations. In fact, at one point it is said, they turned over information to the police because they thought it might be related to a civil matter (somebody's divorce). They don't feel they have enough information to make the allegations public. Something never change but the semantics, police are trying to find the leak, IMHO.
- staplers 3y ago
  Gotta imagine they're onto a big, long thread if they're trying this hard to cover it up.
  - mkovach 3y ago
    As, I said, things remain that same. The cover-up is always a bigger story. Ask Nixon :)
  - sanderjd 3y ago
    Yep, and it just blew up in their face. The most important rule of breaking laws in your small town is to not do something that shows up on the national morning news.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
landosaari 3y ago
Some interesting countries with better freedom of the press than United States (2023): Namibia, Moldova, North Macedonia, Argentina[0] [0] https://rsf.org/en/index https://rsf.org/en/index From the website it states the following. "It is a snapshot of the media freedom situation based on an evaluation of pluralism, independence of the media, quality of legislative framework and safety of journalists in each country and region." Is there an different list to compare against? @Kapura since your country is big: would it be better to compare each state individually?
nimbius 3y ago
most of the stories im seeing so far are pretty one-sided, with Marion decidedly very quiet on the issue entirely for very good reason. What was originally intended to be a show of intent, a brassy display of the sort of wheeling-and-dealing political life that has always existed in small rural towns has detonated with a spectacle not seen since the Beirut explosion. This is the sort of scandal that disbands police departments under consent-decree and sends your entire small town leadership from the city council up to the mayor out the door. If the point was to ensure a coverup, you couldnt have done worse. constitutional transgressions like this have the ability to dissolve the Marion entirely.
- newZWhoDis 3y ago
  True, only the feds get to violate our rights like this. They will swoop in and prosecute anyone who steps on their turf.
  - m_0x 3y ago
    Who watches the watchmen?
indymike 3y ago
This article: https://thehandbasket.substack.com/p/a-conversation-with-the-newspaper https://thehandbasket.substack.com/p/a-conversation-with-the... contains a detailed interview with editor of the raided newsroom. When asked about pulbic support, the publisher said he had a lot of support from out of town, but the locals... well: "They're afraid. They're really afraid that the police power is unchecked, and that they can be punished like this."
- janeerie 3y ago
  My brother lives in this county, and all he's told me is that there's a lot of shenanigans going on there.
arunharidas 3y ago
NPR cheered when conservative media got targeted and when they came after them they're crying violation of freedom of press. You can't have the cake and eat it too.
- pessimizer 3y ago
  Who cares what NPR thinks? You're like one of those people who chooses their positions based on the opposite of what Trump said. How can you recognize NPR as illegitimate, yet give them control over you?
  - hiatus 3y ago
    > How can you recognize NPR as illegitimate, yet give them control over you? Pointing out hypocrisy is giving "them control over you"? TFA is posted on npr.org.
    - acdha 3y ago
      They didn’t point out any hypocrisy. At most you could say they made a strong claim conspicuously unsupported by evidence or even a clear statement about what they’re referring to. Actually pointing out hypocrisy would require both a specific claim and supporting evidence.
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  Pray tell, can you point to the supposed cheering that NPR did for conservative media having it's legal rights violated?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- Jcampuzano2 3y ago
  Targeted in what way that was very likely illegal/corrupted? Gonna need to cite a source for your claims.
nextmove 3y ago
> Meyer's mother, Joan Meyer, collapsed and died one day after police raided her home. So will the Stasis be charged for manslaughter? Oh right this government is totally corrupt.
JumpCrisscross 3y ago
If you feel enraged and want to direct it productively, consider subscribing to the Marion County Record [1]. ($35 for online only, $50 for print, which might make for a nice memorabilia or gift for a journalist friend.) [1] https://marionrecord.com/credit/subscription:MARION+COUNTY+RECORD https://marionrecord.com/credit/subscription:MARION+COUNTY+R...
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

367 points by bratgpttamer 3y ago

jtode 3y ago

[flagged]

draw_down 3y ago
[dead]

jsnell 3y ago

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37102271 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37102271 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37096015 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37096015 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37105764 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37105764 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37120188 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37120188

neilv 3y ago
At least one of those is currently buried on 3rd page, despite "110 points by uptown 1 hour ago | ... | 19 comments". It sounds like a tragic and suspicious situation, and what I'm most curious about (since this is HN) is whether the federal government will step in, and figure out what's going on.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
  Every one of these turns into a flamewar of cynical "America bad, corruption is the norm, there is no free press, etc." comments.
  - giraffe_lady 3y ago
    really makes u tink huh
  - paulmd 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
      A police chief in my state was just convicted of sexual harassment https://news.yahoo.com/litchfield-chief-relinquishes-police-certification-225600784.html https://news.yahoo.com/litchfield-chief-relinquishes-police-... I think people very badly want their cynical worldview to be true
      - s1artibartfast 3y ago
        We also have a robot court system where warrant applications are examined in cases get thrown out all the time for improper search and seizure. There have been tons of cases where falsified data has been discovered causing hundreds of cases to be reheared
  - gettodachoppa 3y ago
    As a foreigner, if I could, I'd downvote it if only because it's local news being blown up all over HN, presumably because it's a slow news week. I just don't care. This isn't speaking to some trend in America. It's a hamlet's local drama. Do we really need 2 posts a day? Btw, from what I got by glancing past the comments in the original post, whoever runs this newspaper is a total rat. What started all this is the newspaper snitching on a self-employed woman who lost her driver's license 15 years ago, and telling the police she's still using it for her job. This doesn't excuse the raid, but god I hate petty small town people.
    - burnerburnito 3y ago
      You're calling them "total rats", yet you say that you haven't read the article and only glanced at it. How is that a basis for making such a bold claim? To quote you further, you claimed they were "snitching" and that "god i hate petty small town people". Perhaps these could be more valid claims about some truly trivial squabble, but the woman in question has previously been driving while DUI (driving under the influence; usually alcohol in America, since you claim to be a foreigner and may have different legal terminology in your nation), severely endangering the lives of others as is well-established by decades of studies on the increased risks of accidents (especially lethal ones) by drivers who are intoxicated on alcohol. Moreover, in America DUI laws are (in this writer's opinion) extremely relaxed. One minor DUI with nobody harmed absolutely does not stop you from getting a license -- the penalty for kansas is 30 days minimum and needing to use a special device to test one's breath's alcohol levels before starting their car. Even if she got a lengthy suspension, which I haven't deeply researched into (though by your own admission, neither did you), she made the choice to endanger others' lives significantly and would have then had potentially up to 15 (or let's say 14, to presuppose a year of suspension) years to attempt to get a valid license, an inexpensive process. Instead, she kept driving without a license, and with a proven history of making poor decisions where other peoples' safety and rights to life are involved. Might she also have lacked insurance? Then in the event she caused any crashes or accidents, the outcomes could be even harder upon the victim. Now, some of these issues reflect deep systemic problems with American justice, law, poverty, education, and public transportation / city planning. However, this immediate article and situation is not something so simple or vulgar as "total rat(s)" or "snitching", and I'd even beg the question of if a situation is really "snitching" when it may be actually probing if the police are suddenly complict in ignoring a crime they might be happy to use against someone else once it suits them. Likewise, I believe you're greatly lowering the quality of dialogue on hackernews by this sort of impulsive response. If I've gotten anything wrong, I'd be happy for you to specify, but what you've written only serves to confuse others about the truth. I may be wrong about such a developing story too, but please consider that I've attempted to broadly make my claims search-able or referencing specific parts of things you or the newspaper have said. P.S. I'm well aware nobody (else) is likely to read this, but decided I'd spend 20 minutes writing on the subject in case of other readers like myself who tend to go over old hackernews comments looking for insights on events that may have been ignored by corporate or mainstream media reporting. Or, TL;DR There appears to be nothing of substance to these claims, move along.

sixothree 3y ago

Checks and balances are needed.

plagiarist 3y ago
I fear this will be another egregious violation of the Constitution ignored under qualified immunity. Prosecuting egregious violations of the Constitution instead of allowing police to do whatever they like would be a good check/balance.
- indymike 3y ago
  > I fear this will be another egregious violation of the Constitution ignored under qualified immunity. The police officers, individually can have qualified immunity. The governments that employ them do not.
  - mrguyorama 3y ago
    Which nicely transfers accountability away from the individuals doing unacceptable things, to the city itself, which cannot go to jail and can pay any penalty through taxes to the same people said penalty is meant to help. What a good system.
- ROTMetro 3y ago
  There needs to be a requirement that Police are insured. The city/county shouldn't pay the bill for poor personal behavior of police with a side of accountability in the form of keeping insurable.
  - mrguyorama 3y ago
    No, just put bad fucking cops in jail. We don't need some damn market of insurance for criminal behavior just because we are so unwilling to hold powerful people accountable, we just have to finally stand the fuck up and demand accountability! The only reason to favor the insurance scheme over, you know, actual justice, is if you stand to profit from it.

myself248 3y ago

If the article is even half accurate, they must be using a different definition of "identity theft" than the one I understand.

bratgpttamer 3y ago
Also, the classic "doing crimes with a computer" (performing a query on the DMV website)
- dmix 3y ago
  It sounds like more than just a public records search, someone sent them information about her DUI: > Newell said she believes the newspaper violated the law to get her personal information as it checked on the status of her driver’s license after a 2008 drunken driving conviction and other driving violations. > The newspaper countered that it received that information unsolicited, which it verified through public online records. It eventually decided to not run a story because it wasn’t sure the source who supplied it had obtained it legally. But the newspaper did run a story on the city council meeting, in which Newell confirmed that she’d had a DUI conviction and that she had continued to drive even after her license was suspended.
  - bratgpttamer 3y ago
    I also read that the source who sent the information about Newell bragged about retaining "connections" in law enforcement, a hint that it might have been non-public information. There's also "dozens" of anonymous tips about the police chief's sexual harassment issues. However, I'm not sure "verifying a rumor via public records" is what the various "using a computer to do crimes" laws are about, especially because my understanding of various public records and registry searches are precisely to allow the public to verify these kinds of rumors. Reading between the lines, it seems that they were most interested in unmasking the identities of these anonymous sources and sending a message to the newspaper.
2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
Are there any details about those allegations? I'd be interested to see what the warrant gave as cause. We seem to be jumping to the conclusion that these journalists are innocent.

megabless123 3y ago

The police cannot be reformed

draw_down 3y ago
[dead]

findalex 3y ago

Sounds like this restaurant owner has some friends high up on the force?

madcow2011 3y ago
That's exactly what I was thinking. Either the judge who issued the order or something like that.
flutas 3y ago
There's also the relationship between her and the county attorney. > County attorney Joel Ensey, whose brother owns the hotel where Newell operates her restaurant
- bratgpttamer 3y ago
  It looks like Newell was using Tammy Ensey's liquor license, which is non-transferrable and expires later this month. [1] https://peabodykansas.com/direct/restaurateur_accuses_paper_councilwoman+5447newell+52657374617572617465757220616363757365732070617065722c20636f756e63696c776f6d616e https://peabodykansas.com/direct/restaurateur_accuses_paper_...

remote_phone 3y ago

Who has authority to investigate the police department for this obvious corruption? Can anyone be held accountable?

tootie 3y ago
Basically go up the food chain. This corruption is probably more on the magistrate who signed the warrant than the police who served it, but that gets investigated by the state or the DOJ.
hyperpape 3y ago
I can’t vouch for it, but the article I read yesterday stated that the police department violated a federal law governing how law enforcement seizes information from journalists. If so, the feds could become involved.
stevespang 3y ago
[dead]
sorrytobedark 3y ago
Unfortunately probably no one, hence heavy vigilantism in the past which is starting to recur.
vel0city 3y ago
Often the FBI will get involved when they hear about corruption. https://www.fbi.gov/about/faqs/does-the-fbi-investigate-graft-and-corruption-in-local-government-and-in-state-and-local-police-departments https://www.fbi.gov/about/faqs/does-the-fbi-investigate-graf... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobbs_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobbs_Act Really goes to show you how wide interstate commerce clause goes.
mcpackieh 3y ago
The FBI, but they're too busy grooming mentally disabled people into fabricated terror plots, because real terrorism is far too rare to justify their inflated headcounts and budgets. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/nov/16/fbi-entrapment-fake-terror-plots https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/nov/16/fbi-entrapment... https://theintercept.com/2015/07/13/another-terror-arrest-another-mentally-ill-man-armed-fbi/ https://theintercept.com/2015/07/13/another-terror-arrest-an... https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a47390/alabama-isis-peyton-pruitt/ https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/a47390/alabama-isis-pe... https://thefreethoughtproject.com/the-state/fbi-frames-mentally-challenged-teen-suspected-terrorism https://thefreethoughtproject.com/the-state/fbi-frames-menta... https://www.democracynow.org/2015/3/19/how_the_fbi_created_a_terrorist https://www.democracynow.org/2015/3/19/how_the_fbi_created_a...

helsinkiandrew 3y ago

> "It is true that in most cases, [the Privacy Protection Act] requires police to use subpoenas, rather than search warrants, to search the premises of journalists unless they themselves are suspects in the offense that is the subject of the search," Cody said. Presumably the restaurant owner accusing the newspaper editor of identity theft gives good cover for the police chief to get a warrant and search for anything else (ie information about investigations into himself). That does give a veneer of legality to the raid.

flutas 3y ago
> That does give a veneer of legality to the raid. I would have agreed, if it hadn't been for the County Attorney (who according to their website is "the chief law enforcement officer in Marion County."[0]) putting his foot in his mouth, and the paper exposing the relationship between him and the restaurant owner. It makes it pretty clear what actually is going on here. > A Record reporter later requested a copy of the probable cause affidavit necessary for issuance of the search warrant. > District court, where such items are supposed to be filed, issued a signed statement saying no affidavit was on file. > County attorney Joel Ensey, whose brother owns the hotel where Newell operates her restaurant, was asked for it but said he would not release it because it was “not a public document.” --- [0]: https://web.archive.org/web/20230215034526/https://www.marioncoks.net/attorney https://web.archive.org/web/20230215034526/https://www.mario...
- bilbo0s 3y ago
  Slightly off topic, but how do you get to be a county attorney, and still be this oblivious to propriety? Did he believe nothing would come of this and it would all just go away? I honestly can't see how anyone with a law degree would have even touched this situation under the same circumstances. Journalists? Preexisting business relationships that are documented and freely available to the public. Jeez, at least hide stuff in holding companies or trusts or something. What were these guys doing?
  - flutas 3y ago

dfxm12 3y ago

Hopefully it also raises alarms about corrupt cops and Qualified Immunity.

stevespang 3y ago
[dead]
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

wishfish 3y ago

There's been some interesting updates to the story. The Marion Record was in the process of investigating the Marion police chief. He used to work for the Kansas City (MO) PD. Allegedly, he was demoted for "sexual misconduct" before he quit and came to work for Marion. This reveal comes in an interview of the Marion Record's publisher. It's an interesting read and he's an interesting guy. One of the old school reporters, in a very good way. https://thehandbasket.substack.com/p/a-conversation-with-the-newspaper https://thehandbasket.substack.com/p/a-conversation-with-the... The other new development is the Kansas Bureau of Investigation revealed they were part of building the case against the newspaper. KBI didn't participate in the raid, but were otherwise working with the Marion police. https://kansasreflector.com/2023/08/13/kbi-director-on-marion-county-newspaper-raid-media-is-not-above-the-law/ https://kansasreflector.com/2023/08/13/kbi-director-on-mario...

dmix 3y ago
I was curious if seriousness of it was related to the restaurant hosting the Kansas congressman at the time (which the journos were kicked out of then wrote a follow up story about the restaurant owner). Maybe whoever invited him had some connection to both the politician and the owner, and the congressman helped kick it upstairs? This is just speculation though.
mannykannot 3y ago
The KBI might now be wondering if the Marion police chief was being entirely forthcoming about what was going on when he sought their assistance.

mynameishere 3y ago

[flagged]

LatteLazy 3y ago

As I understood it, the first amendment has been hedged to protect what papers can publish. But it does not protect how or where they get the information. The result is that courts and the police both can and will raid offices, seize materials etc. The only protections against this are (a) getting it published before you're raided and (b) whatever respect for the spirit of the constitution you can inspire in judges or maybe lawmakers to try and codify these things. Is that wrong? I am asking here about the actual interpretation of the law, not the "ideal world" scenario... This is the best case I could find: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branzburg_v._Hayes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Branzburg_v._Hayes

gwbrooks 3y ago
As a clarification: Freedom of the press under the First Amendment doesn't confer special protections on journalists. Rather, it protects the rights of all Americans not merely to speak freely, but to write freely as well.
empath-nirvana 3y ago
> The result is that courts and the police both can and will raid offices, seize materials etc. The police can and will do all kinds of illegal things, regardless of the law. It's up to the courts and DoJ, etc, to sort that out after the fact, there's not much anyone can do before it happens.
- ROTMetro 3y ago
  And ironically, the courts and DOJ tend to not do anything unless publishers shine a spotlight on it. Luckily the internet has done away with most local news making everyone in the chain's life easier.
- LatteLazy 3y ago
  As far as I can tell, nothing here was illegal. That's sort of the problem...

jjk166 3y ago

For reference this is the form for requesting motor vehicle records in Kansas [0] It asks for "your" information to find the record, but based on the allowed uses you can definitely get records for other people. I would say a journalist accessing DUI records would fall under permitted use case M. That accessing this is identity theft is a farcical claim. [0] https://www.kansas.gov/ssrv-mvr-ltd/ https://www.kansas.gov/ssrv-mvr-ltd/

dmatech 3y ago
I'm not saying this happened here, but if a journalist engaged in hacking or fraud to obtain material to publish, that would be "journalism", but it would also be a crime (the research, not the publication). Obviously, the freedom of the press doesn't include the ability to do anything they want in pursuit of a story.
- jjk166 3y ago
  No one is arguing that journalists are not bound by laws, the issue here is that not only is there no proof they broke any laws here, but even the idea that they might have is laughable, given that this was a public database they had permission to access. It's like accusing someone walking out of a public library with a book is a thief who stole the book.
myself248 3y ago
Exactly. Obtaining information about someone is not identity theft. It might be stalking, it might be journalism, it might be credit-reporting, but it is not identity theft. Pretending to _be_ someone, _stealing their identity_, is identity theft. Absolutely nothing in this story sounds like that, and it sounds like the warrant is entirely farcical.
- hiatus 3y ago
  I think it depends. Reading the form, if you filled it out and clicked the "I am requesting my own record" button, that's holding yourself out as though you were the person whose records you are requesting, which certainly seems like it could be construed as identity theft.

FrustratedMonky 3y ago

"Try That In A Small Town" <Edit> Need to explain reference. There is a video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1_RKu-ESCY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1_RKu-ESCY It kind of glorifies small town justice/vigilantism. Like, the rest of the country is falling apart, but the small town wouldn't let that happen (wink, wink). https://www.npr.org/2023/07/20/1188966935/jason-aldean-try-that-in-a-small-town-song-video https://www.npr.org/2023/07/20/1188966935/jason-aldean-try-t... But then the original post, story about small town sheriff raiding a newspaper kind of shows indications of small town corruption. So the point is about the dichotomy of 'small towns' being pure and glorifying taking "American Justice" into their own hands, and also how they can corrupt those same values. The original post is a counter story about how things can go wrong there too. You can have small town 'justice' also take the form of actions that go against American Values like freedom of speech.

mrguyorama 3y ago
This is the exact style of "justice" that "Try that in a small town" wants. I've been in those small towns. They are always about the people who are friends with the cops. From petty corruption like not giving the local alcoholics DUI citations, to helping their friends weed grow op, small town cops are fabulously corrupt, and there's really no standards that they are supposed to be held to. Remember, hanging negros for looking at women is what would happen in a small town in america.

Kapura 3y ago

This is really, really upsetting to be happening in my country. I know it is a very big country, and Kansas isn't exactly proximate, but we are either a country that protects the press, or we are a country where the press protects those who have power. If this is allowed to pass without the people ordering the raid fired, I am not optimistic about what the future holds.

the_optimist 3y ago
Our press doesn’t even protect the press at this point. We have all seen the tables pairing heads of each major news outlets with their respective political spouses, siblings, or parents. Gellhorn prize winner Julian Assange has been persecuted by the US intel complex for well over a decade. The choice is in your hands to continue to attribute credibility to institutions that may no longer merit it.
- xadhominemx 3y ago
  The fact that a raid on a tiny kanas newspaper is a major national story is a sign that the press is pretty interested in protecting the press.
  - dotnet00 3y ago
    I disagree. All it shows is that national media outlets don't see the tiny newspaper as a threat. They consider independent reporting (eg YouTubers) to be the main threat, thus why we don't really see them making national headlines out of their suppression and why they even go out of their way to exclude them from their definition of press.
    - xadhominemx 3y ago
      Social media algorithmic recommendation engines has also been a major story. Or are you talking about a US law enforcement raid on some YouTuber that was successfully covered up by Google?

CatWChainsaw 3y ago

The Streisand Effect is a real bitch, ain't it... Traumatizing a 98yo woman to death also doesn't help the police's image.

bratgpttamer 3y ago
"Cops raided a smalltown newspaper so no-one would ever find out about police chief Gideon Cody's alleged sexual misconduct or Kari Newell's DUI conviction" https://boingboing.net/2023/08/14/cops-raided-a-smalltown-newspaper-so-no-one-would-ever-find-out-of-about-police-chief-gideon-codys-alleged-sexual-misconduct-or-kari-newells-dui-conviction.html https://boingboing.net/2023/08/14/cops-raided-a-smalltown-ne...

thinkcontext 3y ago

On top of the judge signing off on the warrant when this likely contradicted federal law, we have this: > When the newspaper asked for a copy of the probable cause affidavit required by law to issue a search warrant, the district court issued a signed statement saying no such affidavit was on file, the Record reported. Not a lawyer and I know it takes quite a lot for a judge to be disciplined but that would seem to be something a judicial conduct board would want to look at. https://apnews.com/article/marion-kansas-newspaper-raid-aca057365ea3925328a69acd615c9893 https://apnews.com/article/marion-kansas-newspaper-raid-aca0...

millzlane 3y ago
In my probable cause affidavit in Baltimore fabricated by the GTTF, They said they found white powedery residue in my garbage, but noone in the household consumes any while powedery drugs certainly not enough for there to be a garabge bag full of evidence to get a warrant. But somehow it happened in Baltimore too, "The greatest city in America!"[1] [1] https://www.wypr.org/2023-01-23/whats-with-those-the-greatest-city-in-america-benches https://www.wypr.org/2023-01-23/whats-with-those-the-greates...
- tehwebguy 3y ago
  Another reason all police support the war on drugs: they can just plant some on you whenever they want to frame you for a felony — or just say they thought you had some to get a free warrant.
- deadbeeves 3y ago
  Even if there was white powder in the trash, there's an enormous number of substances and products that appear as white powders when desiccated.
- evanelias 3y ago
  That's terrible, sorry that this happened to you. At least those GTTF officers got caught eventually. I assume you've read or watched "We Own This City"? I'd be curious about your take on it. Side note but I remember when they first rolled out that Baltimore bench slogan... I vaguely remember some explanations that the previous slogan ("The City that Reads") was also rather "aspirational", given the illiteracy rate.

mkovach 3y ago

Seems to me this might be plain old intimidation. The folks involved, which includes the Police Chef, see that somebody is leaking information to the press and a trying very hard to find they leak(s). Since they can't figure out who, and the press isn't publishing anything they are cranking up the heat. In both cases he says that they are investigating allegations. In fact, at one point it is said, they turned over information to the police because they thought it might be related to a civil matter (somebody's divorce). They don't feel they have enough information to make the allegations public. Something never change but the semantics, police are trying to find the leak, IMHO.

staplers 3y ago
Gotta imagine they're onto a big, long thread if they're trying this hard to cover it up.
- mkovach 3y ago
  As, I said, things remain that same. The cover-up is always a bigger story. Ask Nixon :)
- sanderjd 3y ago
  Yep, and it just blew up in their face. The most important rule of breaking laws in your small town is to not do something that shows up on the national morning news.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

landosaari 3y ago

Some interesting countries with better freedom of the press than United States (2023): Namibia, Moldova, North Macedonia, Argentina[0] [0] https://rsf.org/en/index https://rsf.org/en/index From the website it states the following. "It is a snapshot of the media freedom situation based on an evaluation of pluralism, independence of the media, quality of legislative framework and safety of journalists in each country and region." Is there an different list to compare against? @Kapura since your country is big: would it be better to compare each state individually?

nimbius 3y ago

most of the stories im seeing so far are pretty one-sided, with Marion decidedly very quiet on the issue entirely for very good reason. What was originally intended to be a show of intent, a brassy display of the sort of wheeling-and-dealing political life that has always existed in small rural towns has detonated with a spectacle not seen since the Beirut explosion. This is the sort of scandal that disbands police departments under consent-decree and sends your entire small town leadership from the city council up to the mayor out the door. If the point was to ensure a coverup, you couldnt have done worse. constitutional transgressions like this have the ability to dissolve the Marion entirely.

newZWhoDis 3y ago
True, only the feds get to violate our rights like this. They will swoop in and prosecute anyone who steps on their turf.
- m_0x 3y ago
  Who watches the watchmen?

indymike 3y ago

This article: https://thehandbasket.substack.com/p/a-conversation-with-the-newspaper https://thehandbasket.substack.com/p/a-conversation-with-the... contains a detailed interview with editor of the raided newsroom. When asked about pulbic support, the publisher said he had a lot of support from out of town, but the locals... well: "They're afraid. They're really afraid that the police power is unchecked, and that they can be punished like this."

janeerie 3y ago
My brother lives in this county, and all he's told me is that there's a lot of shenanigans going on there.

arunharidas 3y ago

NPR cheered when conservative media got targeted and when they came after them they're crying violation of freedom of press. You can't have the cake and eat it too.

pessimizer 3y ago
Who cares what NPR thinks? You're like one of those people who chooses their positions based on the opposite of what Trump said. How can you recognize NPR as illegitimate, yet give them control over you?
- hiatus 3y ago
  > How can you recognize NPR as illegitimate, yet give them control over you? Pointing out hypocrisy is giving "them control over you"? TFA is posted on npr.org.
  - acdha 3y ago
    They didn’t point out any hypocrisy. At most you could say they made a strong claim conspicuously unsupported by evidence or even a clear statement about what they’re referring to. Actually pointing out hypocrisy would require both a specific claim and supporting evidence.
mrguyorama 3y ago
Pray tell, can you point to the supposed cheering that NPR did for conservative media having it's legal rights violated?
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
Jcampuzano2 3y ago
Targeted in what way that was very likely illegal/corrupted? Gonna need to cite a source for your claims.

nextmove 3y ago

> Meyer's mother, Joan Meyer, collapsed and died one day after police raided her home. So will the Stasis be charged for manslaughter? Oh right this government is totally corrupt.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

If you feel enraged and want to direct it productively, consider subscribing to the Marion County Record [1]. ($35 for online only, $50 for print, which might make for a nice memorabilia or gift for a journalist friend.) [1] https://marionrecord.com/credit/subscription:MARION+COUNTY+RECORD https://marionrecord.com/credit/subscription:MARION+COUNTY+R...

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]