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Kiwi developer here, we have immigration laws that create a false scarcity of tech workers and low amount of skilled local graduates. Among the teams of develop
by smfjaw 3y ago
Kiwi developer here, we have immigration laws that create a false scarcity of tech workers and low amount of skilled local graduates. Among the teams of developers there's usually only one or two nz born team members with the majority being on working visas or in the process of permanent residency. It may look like a good thing for locals as pay stays high but it brings down the overall efficiency of the country. Saying that we generally trail the US market on these things by 3-6 months and we've had some decent lay offs so the worst may be over for us.
NZ salaries are also pretty laughable, even if you're on $150k you can't really afford to live on your own (even an apartment is a stretch) as housing and living expenses are so high. It's only really good if you're in your early twenties and can find flatmates or live with parents and save.
- rr808 3y ago> even if you're on $150k you can't really afford to live on your own (even an apartment is a stretch) as housing and living expenses are so high That's pretty standard outside the USA too.
- astrange 3y agoOnly in the Anglo countries. Other countries build enough housing. (And it's not true in the US, only some coastal regions.)
- rr808 3y agoI know people in their 20s in Sweden, Italy, Singapore, Greece and they're all struggling and/or living with their parents. The main point though was that developers dont earn loads in those countries.
- astrange 3y agoYes, Sweden (Stockholm) at least is similar. I think Italy and Greece's problems are more just that they're poor and underdeveloped, so it's more like poor areas of the US than rich areas. But they don't have nearly the self-defeating housing planning systems of the UK. I'm told Greece has some interesting housing typologies (polikatoikia): https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-07-15/the-design-history-of-athens-iconic-apartments https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-07-15/the-desig...
- robocat 3y agoThe “poor” in the USA are difficult to compare with people in Europe: The Poorest 20% of Americans Are Richer on Average Than Most European Nations: https://fee.org/articles/the-poorest-20-of-americans-are-richer-than-most-nations-of-europe/
- drunkenmagician 3y agoTrue for Singapore - rent here is very expensive, could be 50% or more of monthly salary for younglings. Singles in their 20's do not qualify for govt subsidised housing (HDB). Rents here in Singapore range for 3k + for a basic apartment, 4k for a basic Condo apartment. Salary averages are about 6 - 9k (gross) for developers in that experience / age range
- gmerc 3y agocontext matters though - society expects you to not rent, and will provide for you if you stick to its norms. If you are a foreigner, or don’t want to marry Singapore is not for younglings. 80% of housing is government subsidized ownership for citizen couples (or singles after 35). It’s brutal but philosophically aligned with the ‘good for the country’ - not enough space for people to be single. BTO flats are very heavily subsidized and monthly payment will be in the hundreds for people matching the expectations.
- SenHeng 3y agoTo expand on the terminology. Apartments are govt provided public housing with a 99 year lease. Most of the population live in these. Only citizens and PR holders are allowed to purchase one per household. Condos are gated compounds built by private developers, some have a 99 year lease too. These are for the rich. You can own as many as you like. You may only own one or the other.
- gmerc 3y agoSingapore as a country is designed that you are a local live with your parents until you marry (BTO. If you stick to that societal expectation, the country is very affordable as the government will subsidize you a lot. If you do not or can not, you will pay for it. On one hand it’s brutal efficient and in many ways necessary (there just ain’t that much space for people to be single) and it’s reflected in immigration policy as well - trying to get PR/green card as a single is very very hard because that’s the only way for the government to seriously affect demographic curve without forcing people to have children.
- SenHeng 3y agoSingapore is 699km² (may have expanded since I left) with a population of almost 6m not including migrants. Tokyo is 619km² with a population of almost 10m [0]. And that's not accounting yet for the surrounding population that commutes into Tokyo. During the last census in 2020, Tokyo's daytime population surges to 16m. [1] The difference between these two cities is that a large portion of Japanese real estate are micro 1~2 bedroom apartments (below 20m²) built specifically for singles and young adults. The SG govt has for years claimed that it doesn't have enough space, in reality they're just want to encourage multi-generational living. 0: https://ieagent.jp/blog/eria/tokyo23population-601355#:~:text=「東京都総務局統計部」によると、2023,と非常に多いです%E3%80%82 https://ieagent.jp/blog/eria/tokyo23population-601355#:~:tex... 1: https://www.nikkei.com/article/DGKKZO62846080T20C22A7EA4000/#:~:text=総務省は22日,53万人増えた%E3%80%82 https://www.nikkei.com/article/DGKKZO62846080T20C22A7EA4000/...
- seanmcdirmid 3y agoMost cities in the developed world don’t provide the micro apartments of Tokyo. Their codes don’t allow for them.
- msh 3y agoIf you make equal to a 150k usd salary you can certainly live in a nice neighborhood in Stockholm (capital of Sweden) and a comfortable lifestyle.
- paddim8 3y agoIn Sweden it's expensive in Stockholm, but in most cities it's perfectly fine. The average rent is less than a third of the average salary. In my city you can get a 2-3 bedroom apartment bike distance from the city center for 100k USD and it's one of the bigger cities
- paulcole 3y agoThere is nowhere in the US that someone with little debt and no major medical issues can’t afford to have their own apartment on $150,000 a year. Even SF and NYC would be no problem.
- seanmcdirmid 3y agoWhat countries build enough housing? In China, they build like crazy but housing is still expensive, even in third tier or worse cities.
- standardUser 3y agoThere is no city in America where a single individual cannot afford a comfortable lifestyle in a nice neighborhood on a $150k salary. is this not true in most of Europe? I feel like most of my European friends make well south of $150k and do just fine.
- jchonphoenix 3y ago[flagged]
- ESTheComposer 3y ago> single individual
- dalyons 3y agoOPs first sentence clearly says “single”.
- pandaman 3y agoNZD is 0.6 USD or so, 150K NZD is about 90K USD, according to HUD, such an income for a single person is between Very Low Income (65K) and Low Income (104K) in San Francisco. You can explore income limits here https://www.huduser.gov/portal/datasets/il.html https://www.huduser.gov/portal/datasets/il.html
- standardUser 3y agoI used to work in public housing so I know all about income limits and how they are determined by the average income of the specific region and household size. When talking about average income in ridiculous high income areas, "below average" can still be a very livable salary.
- pandaman 3y agoIt very well may be very livable but I don't see how it can be "a comfortable lifestyle in a nice neighborhood". With the standard 30% of gross income limit you can rent at $2250/m, which limits you to tiny apartments in certain neighborhoods.
- StopHammoTime 3y agoAussie here. Similar, we’re a bit higher but it’s about the same. I will highlight one difference between the US and Oceania - our currencies are at least a third less than the USD. So $150k in NZ is probably closer to $100k and in Aus it’s $110k.
- smfjaw 3y agoYea, I thinking of jumping the ditch in the next year. Housing is ridiculous here in nz, until that gets fixed it's not a very attractive place to live if you're trying to build wealth
- vermilingua 3y agoDon’t come to Australia for better/cheaper housing. We have the triple threat of a runaway housing market, shoddy developers, and weaponised NIMBYs; we have a fledgling homelessness crisis and impotent leadership, so it’s not going to get better soon.
- PlunderBunny 3y agoAs a NZ developer that a lives in his own apartment with a salary less than $150k, I disagree. Yes, it's expensive and yes, our salaries are lower than our colleagues in some other countries, but it's too much to say that you can't afford to put down a deposit on an apartment after a few years of saving.
- smfjaw 3y agoThat's true, it's definitely not impossible. It's just relative to other countries we seem to be a bit worse off on the housing front
- doix 3y agoWhich countries? It seems like a lot of the English speaking countries have a housing crisis in major urban centers. Toronto, Dublin, Melbourne, London, Edinburgh, San Francisco, Austin, NYC, etc... All super expensive by the sounds of it. Is Auckland that much different?
- em500 3y agoNot just English speaking countries: housing affordability is low in most European and developed-Asian countries.
- robocat 3y agoAuckland is pretty bad, but Sydney or Melbourne are worse for affordability (income versus mortgage): https://www.visualcapitalist.com/least-affordable-cities-to-buy-a-home/ https://www.visualcapitalist.com/least-affordable-cities-to-...
- danicriss 3y agoHere's the 2023 version (original reference uses 2019 data): http://www.demographia.com/dhi.pdf http://www.demographia.com/dhi.pdf, pages 7-9 New Zealand is an honourable 2nd place and Auckland clocks at 7th with ~11 (median household annual income for median house). The other cities worse off are around 11 as well, with Vancouver at 12 and Sydney at 13. Hong Kong is the usual autist at 18 in its own league To answer another comment here, Melbourne and Toronto are comparable, London is 20% better off, Austin and Dublin are half that bad, can't even compare
- standardUser 3y agoI don't know the details of life in NZ, but I live in a highly desirable part of Manhattan and make just north of $150k. I eat out all the time, travel often, and ultimately feel very few financial constraints (aside from not saving as much as I'd like). What in NZ is driving up costs so high that $150k can't sustain a single individual in a nice urban apartment?
- bacon_waffle 3y agoI suspect you're in USD and they're in NZD. At the moment, 150NZD = 90USD, 150USD = 250NZD.
- diogenescynic 3y agoAre you single? Do you have room mates? Did you buy several years ago and now have a locked in mortgage at a low rate? I think circumstances change things. I make north of $150k in California, but I'm married and have two kids. It doesn't feel like it goes that far after rent, childcare, groceries, and all your other bills like a car, insurance, utilities, etc.
- standardUser 3y agoA single renter who lives alone in a 1-bedroom apartment in lower Manhattan. I previously lived on a slighted smaller salary in a studio apartment in downtown SF (about 5 years ago). I don't have or want children a car or to own a home, which if of course a gargantuan difference in how far $150k will take you.
- white_dragon88 3y ago[dead]
- TapWaterBandit 3y agoHe's bsing or after extremely desirable places. Even Auckland is affordable for a single on $150k pa.
- 3y ago
- robocat 3y agoTech Immigrants outnumbering local techs happens in many countries. I was doing a job in Australia in the 90s and I remember the ratio there being high. In my job in NZ there was also significant immigrant numbers (although tended to be immigrants from English speaking countries at that time due to NZ immigration laws).
- taocoyote 3y agoOutside of Auckland you can do quite well on 150k.
- billybuckwheat 3y agoI make less than $150K, am in my late 40s, and live in Auckland. My partner and I own our apartment (well, most of it -- we still have just under $20K left on the mortgage). She works part time, and while we don't have a lavish lifestyle we have enough money for a comfortable life. So, yeah, if you're making $150K or more and can't afford to live on your own (even renting) then you have to take a closer look at where your money's going.
- spicymapotofu 3y agoI don't mean to engage in whataboutism, but by saying you're above 40, you suggest you may have bought into your mortgage at the much more affordable times in the past. Did you purchase in the last few years?
- billybuckwheat 3y agoPurchased around four years ago. Our rate at the time was around 3%; it's gone up in recent years. That said, for the years leading up to that my partner and I were renting (first in Wellington, then in Auckland). We also have a now nine-year-old son and having kids ain't cheap :-) For some of the time, we were on one salary. Still managed a fairly comfortable life even under those circumstances.
- fennecbutt 3y agoLate 40s, so let's say fairly 47 or so. Which means you purchased around 43. The housing market is broken (and not just in NZ; I'm a Kiwi living in London). In the 90s the outside London average first time buyer age was 29, now it's 33.4 and steadily increasing. But the real kicker is; how did you get your deposit? Scrimping and saving? Never have house prices been such a high multiple of the average salary. The difference now between the haves and have nots are those whose parents can drop a 30-50kgbp deposit for each of their children and those children who inherit a stake in properties worth around 300-1000kgbp from deceased grandparents. All of the "news" around properties is through the eyes of home owners and not prospective buyers. There are more people cheering when prices go up and booing when prices go down than vice versa, even when their house is worth many times more than the original price adjusted for inflation. I had a Kiwi mate stay with me for a holiday recently (also late 40s) and in his mind the high house prices/ridiculous value increase made sense to him because "I pay my rates the whole time I own the house therefore the value should go up". I tried to explain that rates (known as council tax in the UK) were a _service_ just like paying your electricity bill but it just did not compute; he wasn't interested.