8 ms·

I wonder how they did their selections. Some of the choices surprise me, such as reduction of staff on comp sci, software eng, electrical eng. I presume those d

I wonder how they did their selections. Some of the choices surprise me, such as reduction of staff on comp sci, software eng, electrical eng. I presume those departments would be where people want to go because of the big paying jobs.

samspenc 3y ago
Yeah was surprised to see Computer Science and some other 'hot fields' in the list of programs getting downsized as well, wonder if there just wasn't that much demand for these majors in this particular college?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- pimlottc 3y ago
  Or perhaps there’s a competiting school that already covers those majors successfully.
  - jnwatson 3y ago
    Not in West Virginia…
    - candiodari 3y ago
      Because despite all high paying jobs being in STEM or economics fields, the enrollment is actually dropping in those directions. And yes this is very confused by recovery from COVID, but the reality is that there was a dropping trend that started long before COVID, and today CS (or Math, or Physics, or economics for that matter) enrollment hasn't even recovered to the point it would have been at had the drop continued without COVID happening. But yes last year we saw an increase, for obvious reasons, and the speed at which enrollment is currently dropping is lower than it was before COVID, but there's still less STEM graduates every year. Not just in the US, essentially everywhere. On top of that young people are still running away from STEM degrees to liberal arts degrees of various kinds (but that doesn't work as well as you'd think because there's other problems there). Not even to all of liberal arts, just a few core directions.
- spamizbad 3y ago
  I have a theory as to why: Most other departments get to enjoy the "PhD glut" allowing them to score candidates from top graduate programs and then pay them around $60K/year, and then filling things out by with adjunct professors who are often paid in the range of $1500-$4500 to teach a class for a semester. It's why it's not unheard of for adjunct profs to be on some form of welfare to make ends meet. I suspect it's far more difficult to recruit Computer Science PhDs who will work at these prices, so they probably have to rely on more expensive full-time, tenure-track faculty who likely are paid more than their peers. If you're passionate about teaching or your area of research, you'll probably cope with the lower pay - but that greatly narrows the pool of applicants, especially when FAANGs will pay you 5x more to work for them.
unsupp0rted 3y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- joe5150 3y ago
  This is nonsense. WGS and philosophy probably cost nothing and just aren't on the radar. They want to eliminate the higher ed administration program.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- CSMastermind 3y ago
  These are the degrees that the members of the committee that made the recommendation hold: Chemical Engineering; Journalism; Computer Engineering; Sport and Exercise Psychology; Mechanical Engineering; History; Finance; Biological Science; Chemistry; Creative Writing; Technology Education; Exercise Physiology; Industrial Engineering; Electrical Engineering; Zoology and Psychology
- jxf 3y ago
  That's not true; computer engineering is represented in the list of degrees that the administration has.
- Avshalom 3y ago
  Clicking through to WGS https://provost.wvu.edu/files/d/ce4522bc-ed40-4c71-a402-4bdf43e56cfb/preliminary-recommendation-women-s-and-gender-studies.pdf https://provost.wvu.edu/files/d/ce4522bc-ed40-4c71-a402-4bdf... show that it's being merged under soc/anth and self-submitted a plan to cut their costs by 63% and has already gotten rid of one instructor.
dh5 3y ago
I'm guessing it's more about the faculty being hard and/or expensive to retain for those majors.
- DFHippie 3y ago
  For linguistics? I can't speak for the others, but I know that linguistics departments are pumping out a lot more PhDs than there are positions in the field. I expect that is true for all of them. Because these fields don't tend to bring in grant money, I expect professors can't demand rock star salaries. But if your ratio of professors to students is poor, your department is going to be a money drain even if its demand in salaries and facilities is low.
xcxcx 3y ago
ChatGPT
- lionkor 3y ago
  is a result of comp sci, no?
  - xcxcx 3y ago
    Sure, but ChatGPT is magnifying developer productivity so demand for IT people will continue to decrease. Plus outsourcing. This is also consistent with the theme that more people are being pushed into the trades. Remove other technical options and you get more people learning to weld instead.
seanmcdirmid 3y ago
We don’t know about previous cuts, so it could be that unaffected programs were cut to the bone already. Also, they might not just be competitive in those programs to attract students and teachers needed to run them, so it’s better to focus on other things. Not every school can run a viable world class computer science program.
- fatfingerd 3y ago
  > Not every school can run a viable world class computer science program. This is a consideration, but for WV residents it is better to have a mediocre program with in-state tuition than no program and this will eventually affect the WV economy as a whole.. There's a short term logic in shutting down everything that isn't competitive to attract out of state students, but the resulting function of the public system wont fulfill any of the goals of a state system.
CSMastermind 3y ago
>I wonder how they did their selections. They published their methodology, the metrics driving discontinuation of programs and specialties were: - Enrollment in the major/program (as of Fall 2022) - Enrollment trends in the major/program over a five-year period (Fall 2018-Fall 2022) The metrics for reducing headcount were: - Student credit hour (SCH) production trend from AY 2020 to AY 2022 - Full-time faculty headcount and trend from 2020 to 2022 - Full-time faculty-to-student ratio - Net tuition revenue trends over 2020-2022 (Tuition revenue, based on SCH production, minus expenses) - Total unrestricted expenses trend from 2020-2022 - Net financial position and trend from 2020-2022 Exceptions were made for: - R1 research contributions - Doctoral programs and associated non-terminal master’s programs within a unit that has annual (FY 2022) external research expenditures of $1 million are exempted from review. - State priority program (land-grant mission) - Areas of distinction/differentiation
- matwood 3y ago
  Enrollment overall sounds like the issue, which may be tied to WV population demographics. I don't know how many people are moving to WV to go to college, but the population of WV continues to shrink year over year.
  - Thlom 3y ago
    Do we know why? I've never been there, but Charleston looks like a cosy city and there's lots of classic small american towns around and the nature looks amazing. Have they just not been able to develop any new industry after coal mining collapsed?
    - RhysU 3y ago
      As someone brought up in Appalachia with family who made good money via coal mining, I believe the phrase is "...after coal mining was killed" [1]. [1] https://www.rpc.senate.gov/policy-papers/obamas-war-on-coal https://www.rpc.senate.gov/policy-papers/obamas-war-on-coal which is a partisan source but the opposite side made no bones about what they were doing.
zitterbewegung 3y ago
Maybe the computer engineering is vastly underpaid compared to computer science but, I guess they can’t attract computer science professors and or students ??? It seems very odd.
dehrmann 3y ago
Apparently they rank 139 in CS. Barring significant open-source contributions or stellar leetcode skillz, the path to an entry-level tech job in the valley or NYC will be a challenge. I went to a top-25 CS program in a flyover state without tech jobs, and only the top 5-10% of the graduating class made it to a major tech hub within 5 years. Granted, there a personal reasons to not leave, but still.
selimthegrim 3y ago
This happened to Tulane after Katrina it’s usually because the administration thinks the faculty quality isn’t up to par

samspenc 3y ago

Yeah was surprised to see Computer Science and some other 'hot fields' in the list of programs getting downsized as well, wonder if there just wasn't that much demand for these majors in this particular college?

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
pimlottc 3y ago
Or perhaps there’s a competiting school that already covers those majors successfully.
- jnwatson 3y ago
  Not in West Virginia…
  - candiodari 3y ago
    Because despite all high paying jobs being in STEM or economics fields, the enrollment is actually dropping in those directions. And yes this is very confused by recovery from COVID, but the reality is that there was a dropping trend that started long before COVID, and today CS (or Math, or Physics, or economics for that matter) enrollment hasn't even recovered to the point it would have been at had the drop continued without COVID happening. But yes last year we saw an increase, for obvious reasons, and the speed at which enrollment is currently dropping is lower than it was before COVID, but there's still less STEM graduates every year. Not just in the US, essentially everywhere. On top of that young people are still running away from STEM degrees to liberal arts degrees of various kinds (but that doesn't work as well as you'd think because there's other problems there). Not even to all of liberal arts, just a few core directions.
spamizbad 3y ago
I have a theory as to why: Most other departments get to enjoy the "PhD glut" allowing them to score candidates from top graduate programs and then pay them around $60K/year, and then filling things out by with adjunct professors who are often paid in the range of $1500-$4500 to teach a class for a semester. It's why it's not unheard of for adjunct profs to be on some form of welfare to make ends meet. I suspect it's far more difficult to recruit Computer Science PhDs who will work at these prices, so they probably have to rely on more expensive full-time, tenure-track faculty who likely are paid more than their peers. If you're passionate about teaching or your area of research, you'll probably cope with the lower pay - but that greatly narrows the pool of applicants, especially when FAANGs will pay you 5x more to work for them.

unsupp0rted 3y ago

[flagged]

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
joe5150 3y ago
This is nonsense. WGS and philosophy probably cost nothing and just aren't on the radar. They want to eliminate the higher ed administration program.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
CSMastermind 3y ago
These are the degrees that the members of the committee that made the recommendation hold: Chemical Engineering; Journalism; Computer Engineering; Sport and Exercise Psychology; Mechanical Engineering; History; Finance; Biological Science; Chemistry; Creative Writing; Technology Education; Exercise Physiology; Industrial Engineering; Electrical Engineering; Zoology and Psychology
jxf 3y ago
That's not true; computer engineering is represented in the list of degrees that the administration has.
Avshalom 3y ago
Clicking through to WGS https://provost.wvu.edu/files/d/ce4522bc-ed40-4c71-a402-4bdf43e56cfb/preliminary-recommendation-women-s-and-gender-studies.pdf https://provost.wvu.edu/files/d/ce4522bc-ed40-4c71-a402-4bdf... show that it's being merged under soc/anth and self-submitted a plan to cut their costs by 63% and has already gotten rid of one instructor.

dh5 3y ago

I'm guessing it's more about the faculty being hard and/or expensive to retain for those majors.

DFHippie 3y ago
For linguistics? I can't speak for the others, but I know that linguistics departments are pumping out a lot more PhDs than there are positions in the field. I expect that is true for all of them. Because these fields don't tend to bring in grant money, I expect professors can't demand rock star salaries. But if your ratio of professors to students is poor, your department is going to be a money drain even if its demand in salaries and facilities is low.

xcxcx 3y ago

ChatGPT

lionkor 3y ago
is a result of comp sci, no?
- xcxcx 3y ago
  Sure, but ChatGPT is magnifying developer productivity so demand for IT people will continue to decrease. Plus outsourcing. This is also consistent with the theme that more people are being pushed into the trades. Remove other technical options and you get more people learning to weld instead.

seanmcdirmid 3y ago

We don’t know about previous cuts, so it could be that unaffected programs were cut to the bone already. Also, they might not just be competitive in those programs to attract students and teachers needed to run them, so it’s better to focus on other things. Not every school can run a viable world class computer science program.

fatfingerd 3y ago
> Not every school can run a viable world class computer science program. This is a consideration, but for WV residents it is better to have a mediocre program with in-state tuition than no program and this will eventually affect the WV economy as a whole.. There's a short term logic in shutting down everything that isn't competitive to attract out of state students, but the resulting function of the public system wont fulfill any of the goals of a state system.

CSMastermind 3y ago

>I wonder how they did their selections. They published their methodology, the metrics driving discontinuation of programs and specialties were: - Enrollment in the major/program (as of Fall 2022) - Enrollment trends in the major/program over a five-year period (Fall 2018-Fall 2022) The metrics for reducing headcount were: - Student credit hour (SCH) production trend from AY 2020 to AY 2022 - Full-time faculty headcount and trend from 2020 to 2022 - Full-time faculty-to-student ratio - Net tuition revenue trends over 2020-2022 (Tuition revenue, based on SCH production, minus expenses) - Total unrestricted expenses trend from 2020-2022 - Net financial position and trend from 2020-2022 Exceptions were made for: - R1 research contributions - Doctoral programs and associated non-terminal master’s programs within a unit that has annual (FY 2022) external research expenditures of $1 million are exempted from review. - State priority program (land-grant mission) - Areas of distinction/differentiation

matwood 3y ago
Enrollment overall sounds like the issue, which may be tied to WV population demographics. I don't know how many people are moving to WV to go to college, but the population of WV continues to shrink year over year.
- Thlom 3y ago
  Do we know why? I've never been there, but Charleston looks like a cosy city and there's lots of classic small american towns around and the nature looks amazing. Have they just not been able to develop any new industry after coal mining collapsed?
  - RhysU 3y ago
    As someone brought up in Appalachia with family who made good money via coal mining, I believe the phrase is "...after coal mining was killed" [1]. [1] https://www.rpc.senate.gov/policy-papers/obamas-war-on-coal https://www.rpc.senate.gov/policy-papers/obamas-war-on-coal which is a partisan source but the opposite side made no bones about what they were doing.

zitterbewegung 3y ago

Maybe the computer engineering is vastly underpaid compared to computer science but, I guess they can’t attract computer science professors and or students ??? It seems very odd.

dehrmann 3y ago

Apparently they rank 139 in CS. Barring significant open-source contributions or stellar leetcode skillz, the path to an entry-level tech job in the valley or NYC will be a challenge. I went to a top-25 CS program in a flyover state without tech jobs, and only the top 5-10% of the graduating class made it to a major tech hub within 5 years. Granted, there a personal reasons to not leave, but still.

selimthegrim 3y ago

This happened to Tulane after Katrina it’s usually because the administration thinks the faculty quality isn’t up to par