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Don't travel to China.
by LeoNatan25 3y ago
Don't travel to China.
- ecshafer 3y agoDo travel to China, its quite nice.
- dkjaudyeqooe 3y agoIs that worth risking your freedom for?
- ecshafer 3y agoI don't think my freedom is at risk when I go there honestly. There are probably people in some fields or businesses that do have some risk. But I think the fears are overblown.
- canucker2016 3y agoAs long as you or any relation/acquaintance/company/nation you belong to do not offend China, you're cool. Case in point: the two Michaels from Canada detained 'suddenly' after a Huawei executive was detained in Canada in relation to a US govt case: https://globalnews.ca/news/8224094/canada-china-two-michaels-tension-detention/ https://globalnews.ca/news/8224094/canada-china-two-michaels... Though a third Canadian had his conviction retried to a worse sentence - death.
- modzu 3y agofor context, a million canadians visit china every year
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- woooooo 3y agoWhy is it just accepted that Huawei executives can be detained by the west, though? I don't think taking vengeance on random civilians is justified, but it was a response to us doing the same thing to one of theirs. It's only bad when they do it?
- richbell 3y ago> Why is it just accepted that Huawei executives can be detained by the west, though? The claim behind that at least appeared to have merit, so she — ostensibly — wasn't just detained because someone didn't like her. She also enjoyed the full benefit of the western legal system and lived lavishly, meanwhile the two Michaels were basically political prisoners. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-huawei-iran-sanctions-exclusive-idUSKBN20P1VA https://www.reuters.com/article/us-huawei-iran-sanctions-exc...
- woooooo 3y agoNeither she nor the nation of China are party to sanctions on Iran. They have no obligations to follow American foreign policy. If you're saying, ultimately, "because we can", then fine but that's not great moral ground.
- richbell 3y ago> Neither she nor the nation of China are party to sanctions on Iran. They have no obligations to follow American foreign policy. Huawei operates outside of China, therefore it's reasonable to expect them to comply with laws and sections from other countries. At the very least, if you're going to violate US sanctions, I wouldn't live in or travel to the US or an affiliated country. > If you're saying, ultimately, "because we can", then fine but that's not great moral ground. I am not making any such claim, nor am I American. I'm just pointing out that "person arrested for being involved in explicitly breaking sanctions" and "two random citizens held hostage on vague charges" aren't comparable.
- woooooo 3y ago
- winrid 3y agoDid that person try to sell drugs in China? Pretty well known that's a death penalty.
- defrost 3y agoThey tried to smuggle Chinese sourced drugs to Australia - but that's not the issue. They were charged, went to trial, sentenced to 15 years and appealed. When the appeal failed the original court upped the sentence to a death sentence. This appeared be a violation of a Chinese "no additional sentence for appeal" rule and a petty example of hostage diplomacy wrt the Canadian Government. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schellenberg_smuggling_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schellenberg_smuggling_inciden...
- winrid 3y agoHe should have got the death penalty the first time around according to Chinese law. They were being nice, and the second time they said, fine :)
- defrost 3y agocould have not "should have" - the law in question didn't stipulate either. However, he wasn't sentenced to death the first time. Do you have any comment on the apparent violation of the "no additional sentence for appeal" rule ?
- winrid 3y agoNope, I don't know anything about that. Was it the same judge? My understanding is that it's fairly common to get the death penalty for transporting or selling drugs in China. At least, that's what mainland chinese folks tell me.
- ecshafer 3y agoThe US detaining people in foreign countries for breaking us “law” makes me think that China isn’t the country I should be afraid of. Sanctions are already a morally dubious set of actions that mainly harm the poor.
- xtracto 3y agoI laugh a lot in these kind of threads. Undoubtedly they show the US bias of this forum. It's OK, I like it in other aspects. But for these subjects, you just see comments like "aren't you afraid of losing your freedoms!!" Which reads so American that it may have blue/red/white colours. The number of US related detainees, both legally or illegally. For undubious or dubious reasons, and all around the world is soooooo high, I just chuckle when I see US people riding in their high horse. I'm from a third party country, so I just sit and read with fresh popcorn.
- airgapstopgap 3y agoDo you not consider that Huawei "executive's" detention (actual makes for a similar case against Canada? It was a purely political move, Meng Wanzhou was detained on grounds of a broader anti-Huawei campaign by the US.
- ImPostingOnHN 3y agoMeng committed a crime she knew she wasn't supposed to commit Do you not consider that China retaliating by arresting arbitrary civilians from a totally different country and ransoming them back for their criminal executive is wrong?
- ecshafer 3y agoA Chinese company sells to Iran. America says they can't and asks (Tells) Canada to arrest Meng. This seems more than a little illogical.
- richbell 3y ago> A Chinese company sells to Iran. America says they can't and asks (Tells) Canada to arrest Meng. This seems more than a little illogical. A Chinese company sells American hardware and software to Iran. They intentionally helped Iran bypass sanctions, and lied to institutions like HSBC because they knew they'd get in trouble. There is nothing illogical about the USA being upset about that and wanting to pursue legal action. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-huawei-iran-sanctions-exclusive-idUSKBN20P1VA https://www.reuters.com/article/us-huawei-iran-sanctions-exc...
- ImPostingOnHN 3y agoDo you not consider that China retaliating by arresting arbitrary civilians from a totally different country and ransoming them back for their criminal executive is wrong?
- czDRZ-akk 3y agoThe arrest of the Michaels may or may not have been justified, but they were hardly average Canadian tourists. To put this into context: Michael Kovrig is a former diplomat who at the time of his arrest worked for International Crisis Group, an NGO which is directly funded by a number of government organizations. Michael Spavor was deeply and highly visibly involved in North Korean international affairs, and reportedly met Kim Jong-Un himself. Most people will never come close to the government relationships and risk profiles these two had.
- akomtu 3y agoWhy do you need it in China?
- sieabahlpark 3y ago[dead]
- dkjaudyeqooe 3y agoOr to any other authoritarian state.
- jamesaurichs 3y agoPeople aren't. latest number is showing that traveling to China collapsed 95%. incidentally, FDI collapsed "in the second quarter of 2023 foreign investors “only put about $5bn of fresh capital into China […] in 2021, we saw close to $100bn per quarter!” https://unherd.com/thepost/foreign-investment-plummets-as-the-west-snubs-china/ https://unherd.com/thepost/foreign-investment-plummets-as-th...
- foverzar 3y agoTraveling collapse is likely COVID related. They've only recently started processing tourist visas once again, as far as I understand.
- ThrowAway1922A 3y agoI’ve been there, I like visiting it and friends I have there. The only reason I haven’t since the COVID restrictions dropped is the flights cost too much.
- foverzar 3y agoAnd miss making a personal impression of a country surrounded by so many myths? Good advice for people scared of their own shadow, bad advice for everyone else. Because honestly: > The typical reasons for the Chinese government imposing an exit ban that prohibits a foreigner from leaving China is for allegedly committing a crime, allegedly owing money to a Chinese company, or being in some other sort of dispute with a Chinese company or individual. This is something that I would expect visiting literally any country. It is probably not something that people faring from the western world and traveling over that western world (so no visas, no suspicion, excellent consulate support) are used to, but this is kinda how the rest of the world lives, even when traveling to western countries. It's kind of ironic how the article also ropes in Russia, given that Russians are regularly arrested by the US (sometimes not even necessarily on the US soil) - over a hundred people currently detained. When normalized by population (roughly 150 mil in Russia, and 300 mil in the US), this is pretty much similar to the number of American citizens detained in China (over 2 hundred people). So what, don't go to the US or countries that extradite there? I don't think so either. EDIT: added some rough stats
- nyokodo 3y ago> This is something that I would expect visiting literally any country. To an extent, yes. However, context is key as the fairness and/or arbitrariness of those laws and how they are enforced vary wildly between countries. Merely avoiding breaking the law is a lot more difficult in an outright fascist dictatorship surveillance state like China than even the most surveillance happy western nations. So, while you should follow the law in all countries you visit (or at least know what you’re risking), some countries make that more like a tap dance across a minefield.
- foverzar 3y agoThe matter of "fairness and/or arbitrariness" is entirely subjectivist. Visiting a foreign culture is always a dance across a minefield if you are careless and don't bother researching how to be a proper guest. For example, experienced tourists from my country visiting the US recommend thoroughly researching the rules and protocol of interacting with the police, including properly managing your body language and being VERY conscious about not making unconscious moves you might be used to (moving your hands, reaching for pockets or gloves compartment) - all that just so that you don't get accidentally shot and killed (completely legally!) Is it a fascist police state, or just a different set of expected behavior patterns?
- jnaina 3y agoUsed to travel to China on business quite often, including a holiday at one of their remote resort. The level of dislike of foreigners, especially for dark skin folks, is sadly quite rampant. For my own safety, I no longer accept business travel assignments to China, being a PoC.
- winrid 3y agoI spent a month there and quite liked it. Visited a lot of cities, even in Xinjiang.