8 ms·

UPS driver pay and benefits deal in US to be worth $170k a year, firm says

51 points by crhulls 3y ago

denom 3y ago
Awesome news! I'm glad for the workers and their families. That is a great wage and one that will pay dividends in terms of their health and the health of their communities.
- jhgfjhgfjhfgjhg 3y ago
  How is this awesome news for the poor who will pay for it in more inflation?
  - thechao 3y ago
    Just to follow this slippery slope: are all increases in worker pay since, say, the pay freezes in the middle Roman Empire followed by just inflation, with no other socioeconomic benefits?
bluefishinit 3y ago
Good. These people have one of the most difficult and essential jobs out there. Bezo became one of the richest people in the world because these drivers were some of those who reliably delivered the last mile of Amazon's business.
- gunapologist99 3y ago
  In what way is the job of a UPS driver difficult and essential?
  - bluefishinit 3y ago
    Have you ever loaded or unloaded a truck? It's the definition of difficult. Do you have things shipped to your house? I think most people would consider that essential in 2023.
    - gunapologist99 3y ago
      > Have you ever loaded or unloaded a truck? yes, but whether I've done substantial amounts of manual labor in past lives isn't really that relevant. Of course, you might be sitting in your chair and think "that looks really difficult", and that'd be a fair observation for someone who hasn't worked in the trades. > It's the definition of difficult. Difficult like "hard work", or difficult like "curing cancer"? Loading/unloading a truck is definitely not "the definition of difficult". a lot of other professions that make a lot less than $170k a year would disagree. By the way, you might know that UPS has loaders and pre-loaders; they're not drivers, and they're not unionized (AFAIK). It'd be a lot more fun and less work to drive a truck than to do that, but I'd definitely argue that loading garbage cans in residential neighborhoods is far more difficult than being a UPS driver. > Do you have things shipped to your house? I think most people would consider that essential in 2023. Yes, of course, but I still wouldn't consider a UPS delivery essential, especially when there are so many other delivery services. Is Uber Eats essential? It might be the only thing keeping me alive, but it's still not essential in my view. Even the USPS isn't really essential. For some people who have oxygen equipment or COPD or something, electricity might be keeping them alive. Those are truly essential. Here's a thought experiment: if UPS was still available but cost ten times as much, would you still pay it? If not, then it's probably not essential. Those paying for electricity for life support equipment would still pay it.
      - Supermancho 3y ago
        > Of course, you might be sitting in your chair and think "that looks really difficult" I have family who work for UPS (hell my friend since Kindegarten had a mom who retired out of UPS) and I have a brother who throws bags for Southwest. It takes a toll on the body. It's difficult. Full stop. This doesn't invalidate the varied difficulties in other professions. Sheesh. > Yes, of course, but I still wouldn't consider a UPS delivery essential, Delivery in aggregate is essential, which is the gracious interpretation. I would pay whatever to get my drugs delivered, because without it I die. I'm not sure what creating strawmen, in response to someone's earnest sentiment, does for the conversation.
      - camgunz 3y ago
gdsdfe 3y ago
that's more what I'm payed as a senior dev ... maybe I should change career
- isykt 3y ago
  The company might be doing some funny math with the value of the benefits: $50,000. That could include things you might never use, like IVF assistance.
  - leetrout 3y ago
    My wife is a teacher in NC. We are on her insurance with the state health plan for a whole family. We pay $700/mo for our portion on the 80/20 plan. I would say they likely do pay $30k+ per employee and 50k isnt a big stretch when you count every benefit as you stated. https://www.shpnc.org/documents/open-enrollment-documents/shp201activepdf/open https://www.shpnc.org/documents/open-enrollment-documents/sh...
    - lotsofpulp 3y ago
      That is the beauty of employer subsidized benefits with preferential tax treatment. The worker cannot easily compare compensation offered by different employers, so they are less likely to leave. And bigger/more profitable businesses can afford to hire professionals to analyze and implement these benefit plans, while small businesses are left competing for 2nd tier employees since they cannot afford that overhead. Why someone gets health insurance and retirement savings with pre tax money if their employer subsidizes it and why someone has to pay for health insurance and retirement savings with post tax money if their employer does not subsidize it is a pretty great injustice that neither party is interested in addressing.
      - HumblyTossed 3y ago
        One more reason healthcare needs to be divorced from employment.
  - francisofascii 3y ago
isykt 3y ago
I will pay more for items to be shipped to me and wait longer for them to arrive if it means the UPS drivers are treated fairly.
- johngladtj 3y ago
  I won't.
  - mydriasis 3y ago
    I will. Two to one. So ha! :)
- jhgfjhgfjhfgjhg 3y ago
  That's great but why are you forcing others to subsidize these jobs too, especially the poor?
  - unethical_ban 3y ago
    It's not subsidizing, it's paying. I don't subsidize a roofer when I hire them, I pay them. So your question is "why should poor people have to pay UPS drivers a decent wage?" Which I predict you would argue that you think this is too much money/healthcare/retirement for a delivery driver.
    - jhgfjhgfjhfgjhg 3y ago
      The market determines the "fair" wage of a delivery driver and it is not $175,000.
      - hnaccount141 3y ago
        The fun thing about markets is that there's one for labor too, and apparently the labor market has decided otherwise.
        3y ago
culi 3y ago
See also: Wage Gains at UPS Have Amazon Workers Demanding More https://labornotes.org/2023/08/wage-gains-ups-have-amazon-workers-demanding-more https://labornotes.org/2023/08/wage-gains-ups-have-amazon-wo... Really great to see people organizing again
placesalt 3y ago
UPS is capitalized in the BBC story title (and everywhere else), it should be capitalized in the HN title, methinks.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
valianteffort 3y ago
Just pay them a million a year each, why should they be anything short of rich? Even if the company could afford to pay the drivers $170k/yr without increasing shipping costs, they're still going to increase shipping costs. So this just gets passed on to the consumer rather than the company, much like tipping. And at a time when discretionary spending is down tremendous, this just means more people will get laid off. I will eat my hat if there are no mass layoffs in the next year.
- jewayne 3y ago
  It depends on what you mean by mass layoffs. In post-Jack Welch America, there is ALWAYS some company doing massive RIFs. Often when they're already profitable. I think your hat and your stomach are safe.
- sarchertech 3y ago
  UPS makes about $75 Billion per year in profit. This is a $25k increase after a few years of record inflation. There are 300k teamsters at UPS (including other jobs like package handler). If 1/3 of those employees are drivers, we're talking a 3% reduction in profits. They can afford it. (also worth nothing this $170k is also including all benefits). >this just means more people will get laid off. The threat of a strike makes this much less likely. Anecdotally UPS drivers are much, much better than Fedex and Amazon. They don't toss my packages or leave them sitting in the rain etc...
  - BasedInfra 3y ago
    UPS just over 100 billion revenue and 11.55 billion NET profit. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Parcel_Service https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Parcel_Service
    - b112 3y ago
      Strange how many in this thread don't get revenue vs profit.
    - deleted 3y ago
francisofascii 3y ago
Great news if you are lucky enough to drive for UPS. I would be envious if I was a driver for another firm. The average salary for a delivery driver in the US is around $50K. But maybe this will pull up wages for the rest of the industry.
giantg2 3y ago
Drivers were already making great money. The other package handlers like at the sorting facilities get left out though.
- falcolas 3y ago
  Full time drivers were/are doing pretty good, particularly those with decades of time at UPS. Part time drivers (the bulk of their workforce) were not. That was the main thrust of the recent negotiations (that and AC). But yes, package handlers and sorters next, please.
throwawaaarrgh 3y ago
Holy crap! I'm switching jobs! I hate technology and I want to work outside, this amount of pay seems crazy but if it's true I'm definitely becoming a driver
- falcolas 3y ago
  Drivers are definitely needed, and it's very different work from programming. But, be prepared to work for decades before realizing those levels of pay/benefits. You'll also probably have to fight for one of the coveted full time positions.
- coldpie 3y ago
  Also check out USPS, they're hiring like crazy and have good benefits. It won't be as cushy or well-paying as our tech jobs, but I'm thinking about it, too. I'm so tired of tech.
d_burfoot 3y ago
One fact many people don't realize is that in order to achieve broad-based wage growth, we will have to face GDP losses. This is because there are many businesses that depend on cheap labor to exist. As wages rise, these businesses will start to fail, reducing GDP. We should see this scenario (wage growth with stagnant or decreasing GDP) as a healthy adaptation. The danger is that politicians will react to the bad GDP numbers with dumb new economic interventions.
- sdfghswe 3y ago
  > One fact many people don't realize is that in order to achieve broad-based wage growth, we will have to face GDP losses. This is because there are many businesses that depend on cheap labor to exist. As wages rise, these businesses will start to fail, reducing GDP. > We should see this scenario (wage growth with stagnant or decreasing GDP) as a healthy adaptation. The danger is that politicians will react to the bad GDP numbers with dumb new economic interventions. As a European who loves work culture in America, I'm afraid that America is copying the worst aspects of European culture. Europe is awesome, and I'd love to see America copy us more, but these kind of incentives are the wrong thing to be copying. To expand - training and educating yourself is hard work. Why are we rewarding people whose training is being able to drive a van? It's not about it being "honest work" (of course it is) or "hard work" (of course it is), or "these are important jobs, we need someone to do it" (of course) it's about - do we want to incentivize that young people aspire to this? This is not a recipe for a winning country.
  - Volundr 3y ago
    > do we want to incentivize that young people aspire to this? Honest question, why not? Someone has to do it for society to function. We can't all be software engineers and CEOs, why shouldn't the person driving the UPS truck feel satisfied with their accomplishments instead of constantly being told they are doing it because they either didn't put in the work to "better themselves" or couldn't hack it, as certain parts of our society currently seem to do when it comes to "unskilled labor"?
  - foogazi 3y ago
fisherjeff 3y ago
To clarify, because it wasn’t immediately apparent to me, this is over a 5-year period so the average annual increase is just over 3%.
mgarfias 3y ago
Wtf am I doing in software?
macinjosh 3y ago
> UPS said the average full-time driver would earn about $170,000 Why is the _BBC_ using the corporation as a source for a headline number like this? Are they now just corporate mouthpieces like the US media? This number is surely inflated (including potential benefits not everyone will use like IVF, disability, etc). Very poor showing BBC.
Aardwolf 3y ago
In Belgium average tech job salary is 36K to 87K EUR/year (from this source [1], it's just one source but it's just to back up my experience, also it really leans much more to the 36K, 87K sounds like too much), before taxes It's mind boggling how much higher salaries in the US are. [1] https://www.paylab.com/be/salaryinfo/information-technology?lang=en https://www.paylab.com/be/salaryinfo/information-technology?...
- TYPE_FASTER 3y ago
  That total compensation figure includes both salary and benefits (healthcare, retirement income, etc.) before taxes. A family healthcare plan could have an annual employer cost of $25k or more, plus the employee contribution. UPS provides a breakdown for the previous $145k figure here: https://about.ups.com/us/en/our-company/great-employer/real-employee-benefits.html https://about.ups.com/us/en/our-company/great-employer/real-...
gamesbrainiac 3y ago
Am I the only one who didn't know that UPS drivers were paid 6 figures? This is news to me.

51 points by crhulls 3y ago

Awesome news! I'm glad for the workers and their families. That is a great wage and one that will pay dividends in terms of their health and the health of their communities.

jhgfjhgfjhfgjhg 3y ago
How is this awesome news for the poor who will pay for it in more inflation?
- thechao 3y ago
  Just to follow this slippery slope: are all increases in worker pay since, say, the pay freezes in the middle Roman Empire followed by just inflation, with no other socioeconomic benefits?

bluefishinit 3y ago

Good. These people have one of the most difficult and essential jobs out there. Bezo became one of the richest people in the world because these drivers were some of those who reliably delivered the last mile of Amazon's business.

gunapologist99 3y ago
In what way is the job of a UPS driver difficult and essential?
- bluefishinit 3y ago
  Have you ever loaded or unloaded a truck? It's the definition of difficult. Do you have things shipped to your house? I think most people would consider that essential in 2023.
  - gunapologist99 3y ago
    > Have you ever loaded or unloaded a truck? yes, but whether I've done substantial amounts of manual labor in past lives isn't really that relevant. Of course, you might be sitting in your chair and think "that looks really difficult", and that'd be a fair observation for someone who hasn't worked in the trades. > It's the definition of difficult. Difficult like "hard work", or difficult like "curing cancer"? Loading/unloading a truck is definitely not "the definition of difficult". a lot of other professions that make a lot less than $170k a year would disagree. By the way, you might know that UPS has loaders and pre-loaders; they're not drivers, and they're not unionized (AFAIK). It'd be a lot more fun and less work to drive a truck than to do that, but I'd definitely argue that loading garbage cans in residential neighborhoods is far more difficult than being a UPS driver. > Do you have things shipped to your house? I think most people would consider that essential in 2023. Yes, of course, but I still wouldn't consider a UPS delivery essential, especially when there are so many other delivery services. Is Uber Eats essential? It might be the only thing keeping me alive, but it's still not essential in my view. Even the USPS isn't really essential. For some people who have oxygen equipment or COPD or something, electricity might be keeping them alive. Those are truly essential. Here's a thought experiment: if UPS was still available but cost ten times as much, would you still pay it? If not, then it's probably not essential. Those paying for electricity for life support equipment would still pay it.
    - Supermancho 3y ago
      > Of course, you might be sitting in your chair and think "that looks really difficult" I have family who work for UPS (hell my friend since Kindegarten had a mom who retired out of UPS) and I have a brother who throws bags for Southwest. It takes a toll on the body. It's difficult. Full stop. This doesn't invalidate the varied difficulties in other professions. Sheesh. > Yes, of course, but I still wouldn't consider a UPS delivery essential, Delivery in aggregate is essential, which is the gracious interpretation. I would pay whatever to get my drugs delivered, because without it I die. I'm not sure what creating strawmen, in response to someone's earnest sentiment, does for the conversation.
    - camgunz 3y ago

gdsdfe 3y ago

that's more what I'm payed as a senior dev ... maybe I should change career

isykt 3y ago
The company might be doing some funny math with the value of the benefits: $50,000. That could include things you might never use, like IVF assistance.
- leetrout 3y ago
  My wife is a teacher in NC. We are on her insurance with the state health plan for a whole family. We pay $700/mo for our portion on the 80/20 plan. I would say they likely do pay $30k+ per employee and 50k isnt a big stretch when you count every benefit as you stated. https://www.shpnc.org/documents/open-enrollment-documents/shp201activepdf/open https://www.shpnc.org/documents/open-enrollment-documents/sh...
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    That is the beauty of employer subsidized benefits with preferential tax treatment. The worker cannot easily compare compensation offered by different employers, so they are less likely to leave. And bigger/more profitable businesses can afford to hire professionals to analyze and implement these benefit plans, while small businesses are left competing for 2nd tier employees since they cannot afford that overhead. Why someone gets health insurance and retirement savings with pre tax money if their employer subsidizes it and why someone has to pay for health insurance and retirement savings with post tax money if their employer does not subsidize it is a pretty great injustice that neither party is interested in addressing.
    - HumblyTossed 3y ago
      One more reason healthcare needs to be divorced from employment.
- francisofascii 3y ago

isykt 3y ago

I will pay more for items to be shipped to me and wait longer for them to arrive if it means the UPS drivers are treated fairly.

johngladtj 3y ago
I won't.
- mydriasis 3y ago
  I will. Two to one. So ha! :)
jhgfjhgfjhfgjhg 3y ago
That's great but why are you forcing others to subsidize these jobs too, especially the poor?
- unethical_ban 3y ago
  It's not subsidizing, it's paying. I don't subsidize a roofer when I hire them, I pay them. So your question is "why should poor people have to pay UPS drivers a decent wage?" Which I predict you would argue that you think this is too much money/healthcare/retirement for a delivery driver.
  - jhgfjhgfjhfgjhg 3y ago
    The market determines the "fair" wage of a delivery driver and it is not $175,000.
    - hnaccount141 3y ago
      The fun thing about markets is that there's one for labor too, and apparently the labor market has decided otherwise.
      - 3y ago

culi 3y ago

See also: Wage Gains at UPS Have Amazon Workers Demanding More https://labornotes.org/2023/08/wage-gains-ups-have-amazon-workers-demanding-more https://labornotes.org/2023/08/wage-gains-ups-have-amazon-wo... Really great to see people organizing again

placesalt 3y ago

UPS is capitalized in the BBC story title (and everywhere else), it should be capitalized in the HN title, methinks.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

valianteffort 3y ago

Just pay them a million a year each, why should they be anything short of rich? Even if the company could afford to pay the drivers $170k/yr without increasing shipping costs, they're still going to increase shipping costs. So this just gets passed on to the consumer rather than the company, much like tipping. And at a time when discretionary spending is down tremendous, this just means more people will get laid off. I will eat my hat if there are no mass layoffs in the next year.

jewayne 3y ago
It depends on what you mean by mass layoffs. In post-Jack Welch America, there is ALWAYS some company doing massive RIFs. Often when they're already profitable. I think your hat and your stomach are safe.
sarchertech 3y ago
UPS makes about $75 Billion per year in profit. This is a $25k increase after a few years of record inflation. There are 300k teamsters at UPS (including other jobs like package handler). If 1/3 of those employees are drivers, we're talking a 3% reduction in profits. They can afford it. (also worth nothing this $170k is also including all benefits). >this just means more people will get laid off. The threat of a strike makes this much less likely. Anecdotally UPS drivers are much, much better than Fedex and Amazon. They don't toss my packages or leave them sitting in the rain etc...
- BasedInfra 3y ago
  UPS just over 100 billion revenue and 11.55 billion NET profit. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Parcel_Service https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Parcel_Service
  - b112 3y ago
    Strange how many in this thread don't get revenue vs profit.
  - deleted 3y ago

francisofascii 3y ago

Great news if you are lucky enough to drive for UPS. I would be envious if I was a driver for another firm. The average salary for a delivery driver in the US is around $50K. But maybe this will pull up wages for the rest of the industry.

giantg2 3y ago

Drivers were already making great money. The other package handlers like at the sorting facilities get left out though.

falcolas 3y ago
Full time drivers were/are doing pretty good, particularly those with decades of time at UPS. Part time drivers (the bulk of their workforce) were not. That was the main thrust of the recent negotiations (that and AC). But yes, package handlers and sorters next, please.

throwawaaarrgh 3y ago

Holy crap! I'm switching jobs! I hate technology and I want to work outside, this amount of pay seems crazy but if it's true I'm definitely becoming a driver

falcolas 3y ago
Drivers are definitely needed, and it's very different work from programming. But, be prepared to work for decades before realizing those levels of pay/benefits. You'll also probably have to fight for one of the coveted full time positions.
coldpie 3y ago
Also check out USPS, they're hiring like crazy and have good benefits. It won't be as cushy or well-paying as our tech jobs, but I'm thinking about it, too. I'm so tired of tech.

d_burfoot 3y ago

One fact many people don't realize is that in order to achieve broad-based wage growth, we will have to face GDP losses. This is because there are many businesses that depend on cheap labor to exist. As wages rise, these businesses will start to fail, reducing GDP. We should see this scenario (wage growth with stagnant or decreasing GDP) as a healthy adaptation. The danger is that politicians will react to the bad GDP numbers with dumb new economic interventions.

sdfghswe 3y ago
> One fact many people don't realize is that in order to achieve broad-based wage growth, we will have to face GDP losses. This is because there are many businesses that depend on cheap labor to exist. As wages rise, these businesses will start to fail, reducing GDP. > We should see this scenario (wage growth with stagnant or decreasing GDP) as a healthy adaptation. The danger is that politicians will react to the bad GDP numbers with dumb new economic interventions. As a European who loves work culture in America, I'm afraid that America is copying the worst aspects of European culture. Europe is awesome, and I'd love to see America copy us more, but these kind of incentives are the wrong thing to be copying. To expand - training and educating yourself is hard work. Why are we rewarding people whose training is being able to drive a van? It's not about it being "honest work" (of course it is) or "hard work" (of course it is), or "these are important jobs, we need someone to do it" (of course) it's about - do we want to incentivize that young people aspire to this? This is not a recipe for a winning country.
- Volundr 3y ago
  > do we want to incentivize that young people aspire to this? Honest question, why not? Someone has to do it for society to function. We can't all be software engineers and CEOs, why shouldn't the person driving the UPS truck feel satisfied with their accomplishments instead of constantly being told they are doing it because they either didn't put in the work to "better themselves" or couldn't hack it, as certain parts of our society currently seem to do when it comes to "unskilled labor"?
- foogazi 3y ago

fisherjeff 3y ago

To clarify, because it wasn’t immediately apparent to me, this is over a 5-year period so the average annual increase is just over 3%.

mgarfias 3y ago

Wtf am I doing in software?

macinjosh 3y ago

> UPS said the average full-time driver would earn about $170,000 Why is the _BBC_ using the corporation as a source for a headline number like this? Are they now just corporate mouthpieces like the US media? This number is surely inflated (including potential benefits not everyone will use like IVF, disability, etc). Very poor showing BBC.

Aardwolf 3y ago

In Belgium average tech job salary is 36K to 87K EUR/year (from this source [1], it's just one source but it's just to back up my experience, also it really leans much more to the 36K, 87K sounds like too much), before taxes It's mind boggling how much higher salaries in the US are. [1] https://www.paylab.com/be/salaryinfo/information-technology?lang=en https://www.paylab.com/be/salaryinfo/information-technology?...

TYPE_FASTER 3y ago
That total compensation figure includes both salary and benefits (healthcare, retirement income, etc.) before taxes. A family healthcare plan could have an annual employer cost of $25k or more, plus the employee contribution. UPS provides a breakdown for the previous $145k figure here: https://about.ups.com/us/en/our-company/great-employer/real-employee-benefits.html https://about.ups.com/us/en/our-company/great-employer/real-...

gamesbrainiac 3y ago

Am I the only one who didn't know that UPS drivers were paid 6 figures? This is news to me.