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British Gas starts to turn off Hive smart home devices forever

171 points by mindracer 3y ago

happytiger 3y ago
“Smart home.” Lol
edrxty 3y ago
Companies that shut down connected systems should be required to release all device and server source code and hardware electrical schematics. I don't care if it'll be useless to the average consumer, I don't care if it'll hurt their "sensitive intellectual property" (frantically cobbled dog shit) portfolios, but it'll make them think before they roll things out they don't actually intend to support literally forever...
- pabs3 3y ago
  We should make them escrow their source code before releasing products, so that the source can be automatically released when they abandon them.
- hgomersall 3y ago
  Honestly, the technological exit strategy should be integrated into every development plan. There are loads of options... Spin out, sell the technology, open source. Simply dropping support should almost never be an option. I daresay there are situations it makes sense, but I can't think of them.
  - midnitewarrior 3y ago
    Put the code / schematics into escrow, and require that the company or its successors must release the contents of the escrow in the event that the service ceases to be commercially viable. If another company wants to take over the assets and operate the service, they can, but they are obligated to release the contents of the escrow in the event they cease to operate the service.
    - lobsterthief 3y ago
      Honestly, escrow is usually just one small part of the puzzle compared to the many SaaS/hosting services chained together to make the thing work. I’m sure most iOT startups that fail are no different.
      - ghaff 3y ago
        In general, throwing some code over the wall for some commercially unsuccessful (or just something small time the creator got tired of) project is pretty much useless 99.99%+ of the time. As you say, for starters, it's probably only a piece of a fully-documented product.
- quickthrower2 3y ago
  Or full refund recall. Plus environmental tax and full onshore recycling of parts.
  - vincnetas 3y ago
    How do you achieve that with company that is going bankrupt? Big corps, will spin up a branch responsible for that product and cut it off in case of the problems.
    - quickthrower2 3y ago
      That must become illegal at some point. I spin up a branch, take a billion in off the plan appartments deposits then declare that branch bankrupt while my agency branch rakes it in.
      - jwestbury 3y ago
        It's a legal grey area, generally. It's not uncommon for companies to utilise special-purpose vehicles/strategy bankruptcies to insulate themselves from the financial fallout of their actions, though.
    - jonhohle 3y ago
      Insurance.
    - jrockway 3y ago
      "Dear CEO, you will make license plates in this prison until the recycling is paid off."
      - quickthrower2 3y ago
        Aaaand [clicks fingers] you’re awake
    - vidarh 3y ago
      You can tax the products at the time of sale for expected externalities. Then you can still let people run reclamation/returns themselves and claim against tax and be responsible for overruns. An example is the drinking container taxes in Norway, where single use containers are subjected to a graded tax depending on return rates. If the containers are part of approved returns schemes etc. and achieve 95%+ return rates you pay nothing. Below that the worse the return rates the higher the tax per unit (even if returned in other recycling). This gives an incentive to avoid containers that are not part of the recognised returns schemes. [Some returns schemes, like the bottle return scheme further applies a specific deposit amount per unit, so the amount added, or a portion of it, is recoverable for customers] While ensuring payment for returns processing is important, getting the cost of externalities pushed to the point of sale is also important, because it punishes you with higher prices for products that are hard to get decent return rates for.
- adhesive_wombat 3y ago
  > frantically-cobbled dog shit And that's my suspicion about why open source often seems two steps behind: when it's in the open, you have to do it right and can't hide the bodies. Doing things right is hugely slower at first. It's only in the long run when doing it right pays off. Steady incremental progress outruns the FCDS junk when that inevitably reaps the whirlwind of the technical debt incurred during the initial breakneck development. Sometimes the FCDS is a consultancy deal from the outset and you cannot maintain the steaming bowl of canine leavings in front of you at all. Ever wonder why every now and again a serviceable, but clunky and unmaintained shovelware-like app (parking, alarm system, transport ticketing, that kind of thing) gets replaced with one that's basically the same but a different icon and a handful of trimmed features? New consultants just got done frantically cobbling it from scratch. This is clear in the app landscape, but hardware is often a similar consultancy thing.
  - memefrog 3y ago
    Wait, wait, wait... Behind? If you'd asked me, I'd have said that's why open source always seems to be a step ahead! You're under no obligation to do things 'right', and worse is better. But free software means that you start from scratch much less often. You can take what already works and use it again and again in new products, and so can everyone else. Reusing the core of Linux in a billion small devices seems like a good idea to me.
    - orev 3y ago
      I suspect your perspective is based on using well-established open source projects that have a long history and are popular enough to have reached critical mass. The reality is that most open source projects are playing catch-up, especially in the hardware space. Linux still has many issues with newer GPU drivers (binary blobs instead of actually OSS ones), and even a semi-popular project like OpenWRT doesn’t have WiFi 6E support, even though devices have been out for a while.
    - jrockway 3y ago
      Yeah, especially in this space, open source is miles ahead. HomeKit seems to get worse with every release; HomeAssistant is a much better alternative.
- hollow-moe 3y ago
  Or any kind of product requiring a server, there's a lot of games heavily dependent on online features and when the online platform closes you lose of lot of features or even sometimes the best part of the game. You can still play Mario Kart Wii online today because someone saw the issue coming and reverse engineered the server code but it's not a viable solution
- Gibbon1 3y ago
  > "sensitive intellectual property" (frantically cobbled dog shit) portfolios That phrase always makes me think of crazy person that thinks you're coveting his shopping cart full of precious things. Or maybe as my dad alluded to, classified information usually means stuff that makes us look like lame and petty buffoons.
- dwg 3y ago
  I'm not saying they should not be required, as I have not thought about this deeply, but in whichever way I imagine this playing out, it seems likely to lead to situations in which people are using some device with a lot of security vulnerabilities that were made much easier to find and exploit once the code was opened up.
  - yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
    An unmaintained device was always going to be a security problem; at least with open code and a way to install it there's a way to patch problems after the vendor stops providing fixes.
    - dwg 3y ago
      I'm on the same page, but was wondering if there would be any concern about liability on the part of the company that released the code (mandatorily, as suggested).
  - fsflover 3y ago
    Security through obscurity doesn't work.
- harry8 3y ago
  Especially so a utilities provider such as gas.
- ProxCoques 3y ago
  I agree, but suspect most such systems are using licences from other closed-source projects, IP from 3rd party agencies they commissioned, and stuff that may well have cross-licencing and other crap going on. I doubt a company like BG would do more than just glue together other people's stuff.
- gadders 3y ago
  This is often a factor with commercial contracts with a vendor - source code is put in "escrow" [1], to be released if the vendor goes bankrupt. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_code_escrow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_code_escrow
- jojobas 3y ago
  Unfortunately they "can't". A lot of the dog shit and the beaver snot that holds it together is licensed from third parties.
  - edrxty 3y ago
    That's kinda what I'm getting at though. If you regulate that everything is going to be escrowed with a contingency (by which I mean guarantee) that it'll end up being forcibly released under GPL/whatever, you suddenly need to use components that are compatible. Short term this would be an e-waste bill, long term it would help strengthen the FOSS community and by extension the quality, speed of development, and general performance of the whole industry.
- smashah 3y ago
  This is why regulation is required to force companies to release feature-parity APIs and protect reverse engineering projects from legal threats.
- segmondy 3y ago
  It's a great idea! Lobby for it, contact a lawmaker and get a bill passed.
HlessClaudesman 3y ago
Smart homes are a corporate fever dream, adding extra layers of complexity, technical debt, servicing costs, for zero benefit. Wall switches and dials are already user friendly, the only exception being for people with disabilities.
- pmlnr 3y ago
  No, connected homes are. Smart homes on ZigBee, knx, etc (local first) are fine.
  - CommanderData 3y ago
    Thankfully the Hive thermostat is Zigbee and works offline (I have one setup). It's not mentioned in the article so I'm unsure on its longevity but when the time comes the majority of users however will not be able to do this and might make them worthless to those people, more ewaste.
    - zimpenfish 3y ago
      > Thankfully the Hive thermostat is Zigbee and works offline I don't suppose you have any useful "here's how to connect using Zigbee" tutorials? Would be handy to skip the whole Hive API shenanigans...
      - pmlnr 3y ago
        There's some for Zigbee2MQTT: https://www.zigbee2mqtt.io/supported-devices/#s=hive https://www.zigbee2mqtt.io/supported-devices/#s=hive
- Iulioh 3y ago
  I mean, they are good if the system is closed. The same way certain systems work on 80' hardware, they do a job and only a job without internet connection.
- rocqua 3y ago
  My recent experience with trying to get a working led dimmer combination has almost pushed me to switching to a phillips hue. So not all dials are user friendly. I did notice though, that almost all high-end light bulbs are smart bulbs. Getting name-brand good quality dimmable leds is difficult (except for phillips warm-glow, but the compatibility horror of those bulbs is what started me on this journey)
pmlnr 3y ago
> However, it's quite an old product and if you went for a Hive system from 2016 These things are part of the house, like an appliance. 7 years is nothing in terms of a building, it's ridiculous to disable products in such a short time.
- Reason077 3y ago
  Exactly. This is something that should be protected in consumer law. There should be a minimum (10 years? more?) period in which companies are required to support smart home devices and keep the cloud services that support them operational. There is an e-waste issue here as well as a consumer rights one. The old analog boiler control/timer box and thermostat in my house look they were installed in the 1980s. A bit yellowed and beat up but they still work just fine!
  - robertlagrant 3y ago
    Or have the products clearly labelled to say that the service is not guaranteed to keep working after a certain date.
    - shaoonb 3y ago
      It's probably there in the fine print somewhere. Maybe if it was required to be very clearly marked on the packaging like cigarette warning labels.
      - robertlagrant 3y ago
        Yes - exactly. Big old sticker on every device saying it, that sort of thing.
        bombcar 3y ago
        If you did it right you could make it a marketing sell point - list the number of guaranteed days left in the UI and then start telling you how much you “beat” the system once that’s past.
alias_neo 3y ago
Customers need to stop buying "connected" smart home devices, but more importantly, legislation needs to prevent this bullshit; I still remember the story of Sonos intentionally bricking up-traded speakers that were perfectly functional so they couldn't be sold on, and some other company (I now forget who) bricking their remote with a firmware update because they no longer wanted to support it. Force anyone who wants to release connected products like this to put the code in Escrow and if they go belly up without a plan, it goes public. Communities across all disciplines have reverse engineered defunct products since forever, imagine what we can do with the source.
- anigbrowl 3y ago
  legislation needs to prevent this bullshit When are engineers going to understand that the bullshit corporations buy the politicians that write the laws? They don't need to buy all of them, just slightly more than half. They're fine with some rebel types who submit noble-sounding bills for the EFF or whoever to rally around that never go anywhere.
  - midasuni 3y ago
    We have fairly strong consumer rights in the UK, and the law does get better in these areas in response to public opinion.
  - alias_neo 3y ago
    > When are engineers going to understand that the bullshit corporations buy the politicians that write the laws? Never. Because as engineers we're optimists, if I just resigned to this fact, there'd be no hope left. It's not that we don't understand, it's that we don't accept. Many of us also aren't capitalists, so we can't believe that the "free market" will resolve it either. We build things, somewhat in isolation to the "human problem", some of us (I speak for myself) because technology, machines, are better? easier? more consistent? predictable? reliable? quantifiable? than humans. We can solve technical problems, we can't solve humans being completly greedy, selfish pricks; those corporations buying those politicians are just humans. Engineering is _easy_, compared to people and people problems.
userbinator 3y ago
I feel like, in some circles, the adjective "smart" has gained a highly negative connotation when referring to anything other than a human, as it necessarily implies some sort of resistance to control and ownership.
- fxtentacle 3y ago
  I feel like "He's as smart as my doorbell." is also not exactly a compliment ;)
- martyfmelb 3y ago
  That circle would include me. "Smart" is just about synonymous with "connected" these days, and any product with the originating company in its feedback loop represents a risk that the product will start working against the user in some way either immediately or after some honeymoon period.
  - ragebol 3y ago
    Agreed, I'm definitely in the same circle. A smart TV means it can run apps basically. There is really nothing smart about that... It would be smart if it would mute itself during commercials, for example. All these 'Smart' things should work for me instead of for the vendor really. Concerning the connected stuff: I ordered a new robot vacuum the other day and checked if it could integrate with Home Assistant and fell into the 'local push/poll' category of integrations [0]. [0] https://www.home-assistant.io/blog/2016/02/12/classifying-the-internet-of-things/#classifiers https://www.home-assistant.io/blog/2016/02/12/classifying-th...
- Qwertious 3y ago
  IMO, all "smart" devices should be open hardware. Or at least, the electronics should be. A literal toaster being vendor-locked is deranged.
- tzs 3y ago
  I wonder if the tainting of "smart" over the last few years ever made Kwikset regret naming their entirely mechanical user rekeyable lock system "Smart Key"? Those came out in 2008. For those who haven't seen those locks, they look like normal door locks, with a normal key, and are used just like normal locks (insert key, turn clockwise to lock, counterclockwise to unlock), except that there is a small hole next to the keyway. If you put a working key into one, turn it 90° clockwise, insert a simple tool Kwikset provides into that small hole far enough to press a button at the bottom of the hole, and remove that tool the lock will release the key. You can then, being careful to not rotate the cylinder, pull out the key and put a new different key in. The lock then rekeys itself to that new key, and you can then turn the cylinder counterclockwise 180° to verify this. Then turn the cylinder back 90° clockwise and remove the key and you are done. This is quite convenient. I recently replaced my locks with these. Before I had one brand of knob and deadbolt on the front door, a different brand on of level and deadbolt on the back door, and a third brand of knob on the garage door. Each of these locks was on a different key, so that was 5 keys in total. And I'd long ago lost the garage key and the back door lever key. I bought a Kwikset Smart Key comb knob and deadbolt for the front door, a combo level and deadbolt for the backdoor, and a knob for the garage. So that was 3 different keys. Then I picked the key that had the most variation in the depth of cuts, and went around to the other locks with the rekey tool and rekeyed them all to that key. I also picked up a couple of Kwikset padlocks that use this system and rekeyed them to that key. Later I added a deadbolt to the garage and put it on that key too. I also had a sliding door lock. There doesn't seem to be a Kwikset Smart Key lock in the right form factor for that, but I noticed that the sliding door lock (a PrimeLine E2000) uses Kwickset KW1 keys, which is the same key blank that Smart Key uses. I was able to take that apart and rekey it to match the rest of the locks. My key ring now only needs my car key and one Kwikset key. It's a lot less jingly now. If I'm not going to be using my car I just carry a loose Kwikset key in my pocket.
samwillis 3y ago
This was inevitable, it's always been a secondary thing for British Gas. I worked on the predecessor to Hive back in about '08-'10, the engineering consultancy I worked for designed a version of the "hub" and a number of their security and energy monitoring sensors. It was the first thing I worked on that made it out into consumers hands (v2 of the hub). I remember one day buying a copy of Wired magazine, and it had an article about them. Seeing a product I had designed in that magazine was a really memorable moment. Back then they were not part of British Gas but a Cambridge UK startup called AlertMe. A really good bunch of people with a vision for the smart home. The plan was clearly to start with the security products, then energy monitoring was a secondary market. However after getting a big contract with British Gas to supply monitoring to all their customers, they pivoted almost completely to that - and ultimately they were acquired by them. As I said, they were a really interesting team, their CTO was a former early Acorn employee who had lead RiscOS.
- timthorn 3y ago
  > As I said, they were a really interesting team, their CTO was a former early Acorn employee who had lead RiscOS He was profiled a few years back, as discussed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24226740 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24226740
- alias_neo 3y ago
  Sounds like it would have been really cool in its original form, right up my street. Shame big corp came in and destroyed it, I hope everyone was paid hansomly in the takeover at least.
  - robertlagrant 3y ago
    > I hope everyone was paid hansomly in the takeover at least That might be a mixed blessing; horses are expensive![0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hansom_cab https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hansom_cab
    - vijayr02 3y ago
39Wc 3y ago
Deceptive writing. It's just the outdated (and presumably insecure) Hive Nano 1, that is being deactivated early, and for a good reason probably. The author should explain the necessity to switch off insecure products and motivate people to stay up to date in terms of IT security. Instead, the text makes it sound like some villain corporation is trying to screw their customers for no good reason at all. https://community.hivehome.com/s/article/Nano1-shutdown-Steps-to-upgrade https://community.hivehome.com/s/article/Nano1-shutdown-Step...
- OtomotO 3y ago
  So, for a smart home where some parts are actually, well "hidden" in the building you find if feasible to just upgrade? I mean, how much could a house cost, right? Stuff like this should be forbidden. Non-experts simply cannot fathom the consequences of their decisions. Nobody would expect parts of their house need complete replacement after just 7 years (if they were in good condition in the first place and there was no catastrophe) This is not even talking about e-waste and the environmental issues that arise from more high tech garbage
- IshKebab 3y ago
  Are you just guessing that it's insecure and for some reason that can't be fixed with a software update? Your link doesn't mention that as far as I can see.
- gambiting 3y ago
  Nano 1 was on sale as recently as 2016. It's only 7 years old - there is literally no reason why they can't keep it working. And if they say they can't they are literally incompetent and their tech department needs to be replaced.
leokennis 3y ago
I’m super late to the “smart home party” but the few smart things I do own are all HomeKit certified, as a requirement for that is that the device needs to work as long as it has local connection to a HomeKit hub (like an iPhone). Internet not required, let alone a connection to a vendors servers. Before I go all in, I’ll need to verify how well this works in practice but at least it should prevent a scenario like the one linked here…
- deadbunny 3y ago
  Withought getting in the weeds this is generally the right approach. The most important thing is that devices should work without an internet connection. I use Home Assistant as my "hub" so that's another requirement but that's more personal choice.
Animats 3y ago
Most "cloud" services seem to have a short lifespan. Maybe 5 years.
- bombcar 3y ago
  Unless they’re really established (and even then) you’re about right. Turn the Internet off after installing any smart device and see what happens - that’ll be how it works when they shut down the servers. If it don’t work at least somewhat, send it back.
danw1979 3y ago
If you’re just looking for some basic remote on/off functionality for your heating and hot water, with built in timers, not dependent on any cloud service or app, may I wholeheartedly recommend Shelly relay products. Simple web interface and easy to physically wire up. MQTT if you need to wire them up to HA or Graphite ( power meter varieties) or whatever.
turblety 3y ago
I went all in on the Hive system (heating, cameras, etc) and have only negative things to say about the entire company. Even for their heating systems, do not use them. Don't take my word for it. Go and look at the app reviews. The app is buggy, barely functional and their support is incompetent. Frequently, I'll turn the heating on and the app will (after about 10 seconds) show it's worked. I'll turn off my phone and wonder why the house is still cold. Open the app, and yeah, it didn't actually turn on. The UX is very clunky too. They've tried to make this "app/phone" like dashboard, where you can drag and drop devices into pages. But it's completely broken (on Android, but looking at the reviews, I assume iPhone too). When scrolling/swiping the page just get's stuck half way through. Every update makes the lag/delays and errors more frequent.
- gambiting 3y ago
  On the other hand - I've had a Hive thermostat for the last 5 years and it works flawlessly. Every time I start it from the app it works. Use it with a combi boiler here in UK and it works absolutely fine. I only have that one device from them so I can't comment on anything other than heating.
  - rjh29 3y ago
    Literally getting a new boiler with Hive next week, so that was comforting to hear.
i-use-nixos-btw 3y ago
This is why I self-host. I don’t like the idea of buying something and having no control over how I use it, where my data goes, etc. I strongly urge anyone with a tech interest to get a Raspberry Pi (now that they’re widely available again) and install HomeAssistant. Many of your devices will work through the many plugins available. If you can get your head around Python coroutines (… I can’t but I bodged it) you can implement your own. Some devices will still need to send data to a central server to work, but you can often integrate their APIs until such a time that the service is discontinued. Then search out devices that are known to work with HomeAssistant.
- zimpenfish 3y ago
  > Many of your devices will work through the many plugins available Alas, the Hive stuff doesn't because BG moved their auth to AWS Cognito and the Python module hasn't yet[1] managed to work out how to keep auth going[2] [1] There is a workaround which involves getting a device token and using that instead but also I think I may have cracked the "refresh token" flow, just need to push a PR. [2] You get 1h expiry on the access tokens with mandatory 2FA. Hilarity ensues.
odiroot 3y ago
I have a Hive thermostat (for heating and hot water) and I really love it. Bought the hubless version on purpose, to avoid exactly such situations. It integrates well with Zigbee2MQTT and Home Assistant though, so I can still control it remotely.
logifail 3y ago
Q: Are Hive smart device customers paying some kind of monthly or annual fee?
domh 3y ago
I recently added a smart thermostat but picked a provider that works completely offline and has a good Home Assistant plugin (Wiser https://www.draytoncontrols.co.uk/products/Smart-Heating/Wiser https://www.draytoncontrols.co.uk/products/Smart-Heating/Wis...). It was recommended to me by people in the trade that Wiser is the "cheap" model, but I'd much rather go for the budget option if it means I can go offline and it still works. Would never touch Nest, Hive, Tado etc, I want this to last longer than any of these companies are willing to provide support. Anyone know of a dumber system that has thermostatic TRVs + per room scheduling? Ideally with an offline screen to administer?
forgotusername6 3y ago
Perhaps someone on here can help me. I'm one of the poor souls who has this device. I ordered the replacement hub late, it arrived while I was on holiday and I only just tried to install it. Unfortunately the migration instructions seem to require that the old device is on and functioning, which it isn't because it is past the 1st of August. I can't find instructions on how to connect the hive 1 thermostat to the new hive hub. If it turns out this is impossible and I need to rewire my boiler I will be very sad indeed. Edit: a quick WhatsApp chat with a British Gas advisor sorted it. For anyone else reading this, the v1 thermostat is compatible with the latest hub
wildekek 3y ago
I really, really don't understand why these simple-ass microcontrollers are running proprietary software instead of something open source like ESPHome or Tasmota. There is no added value in the proprietary software running on an MCU with a sensor, it is all in the service that run on top of them. It infuriates me that all these perfectly fine devices now are junk, because some clown decided that they needed to develop their own "platform".

171 points by mindracer 3y ago

“Smart home.” Lol

Companies that shut down connected systems should be required to release all device and server source code and hardware electrical schematics. I don't care if it'll be useless to the average consumer, I don't care if it'll hurt their "sensitive intellectual property" (frantically cobbled dog shit) portfolios, but it'll make them think before they roll things out they don't actually intend to support literally forever...

pabs3 3y ago
We should make them escrow their source code before releasing products, so that the source can be automatically released when they abandon them.
hgomersall 3y ago
Honestly, the technological exit strategy should be integrated into every development plan. There are loads of options... Spin out, sell the technology, open source. Simply dropping support should almost never be an option. I daresay there are situations it makes sense, but I can't think of them.
- midnitewarrior 3y ago
  Put the code / schematics into escrow, and require that the company or its successors must release the contents of the escrow in the event that the service ceases to be commercially viable. If another company wants to take over the assets and operate the service, they can, but they are obligated to release the contents of the escrow in the event they cease to operate the service.
  - lobsterthief 3y ago
    Honestly, escrow is usually just one small part of the puzzle compared to the many SaaS/hosting services chained together to make the thing work. I’m sure most iOT startups that fail are no different.
    - ghaff 3y ago
      In general, throwing some code over the wall for some commercially unsuccessful (or just something small time the creator got tired of) project is pretty much useless 99.99%+ of the time. As you say, for starters, it's probably only a piece of a fully-documented product.
quickthrower2 3y ago
Or full refund recall. Plus environmental tax and full onshore recycling of parts.
- vincnetas 3y ago
  How do you achieve that with company that is going bankrupt? Big corps, will spin up a branch responsible for that product and cut it off in case of the problems.
  - quickthrower2 3y ago
    That must become illegal at some point. I spin up a branch, take a billion in off the plan appartments deposits then declare that branch bankrupt while my agency branch rakes it in.
    - jwestbury 3y ago
      It's a legal grey area, generally. It's not uncommon for companies to utilise special-purpose vehicles/strategy bankruptcies to insulate themselves from the financial fallout of their actions, though.
  - jonhohle 3y ago
    Insurance.
  - jrockway 3y ago
    "Dear CEO, you will make license plates in this prison until the recycling is paid off."
    - quickthrower2 3y ago
      Aaaand [clicks fingers] you’re awake
  - vidarh 3y ago
    You can tax the products at the time of sale for expected externalities. Then you can still let people run reclamation/returns themselves and claim against tax and be responsible for overruns. An example is the drinking container taxes in Norway, where single use containers are subjected to a graded tax depending on return rates. If the containers are part of approved returns schemes etc. and achieve 95%+ return rates you pay nothing. Below that the worse the return rates the higher the tax per unit (even if returned in other recycling). This gives an incentive to avoid containers that are not part of the recognised returns schemes. [Some returns schemes, like the bottle return scheme further applies a specific deposit amount per unit, so the amount added, or a portion of it, is recoverable for customers] While ensuring payment for returns processing is important, getting the cost of externalities pushed to the point of sale is also important, because it punishes you with higher prices for products that are hard to get decent return rates for.
adhesive_wombat 3y ago
> frantically-cobbled dog shit And that's my suspicion about why open source often seems two steps behind: when it's in the open, you have to do it right and can't hide the bodies. Doing things right is hugely slower at first. It's only in the long run when doing it right pays off. Steady incremental progress outruns the FCDS junk when that inevitably reaps the whirlwind of the technical debt incurred during the initial breakneck development. Sometimes the FCDS is a consultancy deal from the outset and you cannot maintain the steaming bowl of canine leavings in front of you at all. Ever wonder why every now and again a serviceable, but clunky and unmaintained shovelware-like app (parking, alarm system, transport ticketing, that kind of thing) gets replaced with one that's basically the same but a different icon and a handful of trimmed features? New consultants just got done frantically cobbling it from scratch. This is clear in the app landscape, but hardware is often a similar consultancy thing.
- memefrog 3y ago
  Wait, wait, wait... Behind? If you'd asked me, I'd have said that's why open source always seems to be a step ahead! You're under no obligation to do things 'right', and worse is better. But free software means that you start from scratch much less often. You can take what already works and use it again and again in new products, and so can everyone else. Reusing the core of Linux in a billion small devices seems like a good idea to me.
  - orev 3y ago
    I suspect your perspective is based on using well-established open source projects that have a long history and are popular enough to have reached critical mass. The reality is that most open source projects are playing catch-up, especially in the hardware space. Linux still has many issues with newer GPU drivers (binary blobs instead of actually OSS ones), and even a semi-popular project like OpenWRT doesn’t have WiFi 6E support, even though devices have been out for a while.
  - jrockway 3y ago
    Yeah, especially in this space, open source is miles ahead. HomeKit seems to get worse with every release; HomeAssistant is a much better alternative.
hollow-moe 3y ago
Or any kind of product requiring a server, there's a lot of games heavily dependent on online features and when the online platform closes you lose of lot of features or even sometimes the best part of the game. You can still play Mario Kart Wii online today because someone saw the issue coming and reverse engineered the server code but it's not a viable solution
Gibbon1 3y ago
> "sensitive intellectual property" (frantically cobbled dog shit) portfolios That phrase always makes me think of crazy person that thinks you're coveting his shopping cart full of precious things. Or maybe as my dad alluded to, classified information usually means stuff that makes us look like lame and petty buffoons.
dwg 3y ago
I'm not saying they should not be required, as I have not thought about this deeply, but in whichever way I imagine this playing out, it seems likely to lead to situations in which people are using some device with a lot of security vulnerabilities that were made much easier to find and exploit once the code was opened up.
- yjftsjthsd-h 3y ago
  An unmaintained device was always going to be a security problem; at least with open code and a way to install it there's a way to patch problems after the vendor stops providing fixes.
  - dwg 3y ago
    I'm on the same page, but was wondering if there would be any concern about liability on the part of the company that released the code (mandatorily, as suggested).
- fsflover 3y ago
  Security through obscurity doesn't work.
harry8 3y ago
Especially so a utilities provider such as gas.
ProxCoques 3y ago
I agree, but suspect most such systems are using licences from other closed-source projects, IP from 3rd party agencies they commissioned, and stuff that may well have cross-licencing and other crap going on. I doubt a company like BG would do more than just glue together other people's stuff.
gadders 3y ago
This is often a factor with commercial contracts with a vendor - source code is put in "escrow" [1], to be released if the vendor goes bankrupt. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_code_escrow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Source_code_escrow
jojobas 3y ago
Unfortunately they "can't". A lot of the dog shit and the beaver snot that holds it together is licensed from third parties.
- edrxty 3y ago
  That's kinda what I'm getting at though. If you regulate that everything is going to be escrowed with a contingency (by which I mean guarantee) that it'll end up being forcibly released under GPL/whatever, you suddenly need to use components that are compatible. Short term this would be an e-waste bill, long term it would help strengthen the FOSS community and by extension the quality, speed of development, and general performance of the whole industry.
smashah 3y ago
This is why regulation is required to force companies to release feature-parity APIs and protect reverse engineering projects from legal threats.
segmondy 3y ago
It's a great idea! Lobby for it, contact a lawmaker and get a bill passed.

HlessClaudesman 3y ago

Smart homes are a corporate fever dream, adding extra layers of complexity, technical debt, servicing costs, for zero benefit. Wall switches and dials are already user friendly, the only exception being for people with disabilities.

pmlnr 3y ago
No, connected homes are. Smart homes on ZigBee, knx, etc (local first) are fine.
- CommanderData 3y ago
  Thankfully the Hive thermostat is Zigbee and works offline (I have one setup). It's not mentioned in the article so I'm unsure on its longevity but when the time comes the majority of users however will not be able to do this and might make them worthless to those people, more ewaste.
  - zimpenfish 3y ago
    > Thankfully the Hive thermostat is Zigbee and works offline I don't suppose you have any useful "here's how to connect using Zigbee" tutorials? Would be handy to skip the whole Hive API shenanigans...
    - pmlnr 3y ago
      There's some for Zigbee2MQTT: https://www.zigbee2mqtt.io/supported-devices/#s=hive https://www.zigbee2mqtt.io/supported-devices/#s=hive
Iulioh 3y ago
I mean, they are good if the system is closed. The same way certain systems work on 80' hardware, they do a job and only a job without internet connection.
rocqua 3y ago
My recent experience with trying to get a working led dimmer combination has almost pushed me to switching to a phillips hue. So not all dials are user friendly. I did notice though, that almost all high-end light bulbs are smart bulbs. Getting name-brand good quality dimmable leds is difficult (except for phillips warm-glow, but the compatibility horror of those bulbs is what started me on this journey)

pmlnr 3y ago

> However, it's quite an old product and if you went for a Hive system from 2016 These things are part of the house, like an appliance. 7 years is nothing in terms of a building, it's ridiculous to disable products in such a short time.

Reason077 3y ago
Exactly. This is something that should be protected in consumer law. There should be a minimum (10 years? more?) period in which companies are required to support smart home devices and keep the cloud services that support them operational. There is an e-waste issue here as well as a consumer rights one. The old analog boiler control/timer box and thermostat in my house look they were installed in the 1980s. A bit yellowed and beat up but they still work just fine!
- robertlagrant 3y ago
  Or have the products clearly labelled to say that the service is not guaranteed to keep working after a certain date.
  - shaoonb 3y ago
    It's probably there in the fine print somewhere. Maybe if it was required to be very clearly marked on the packaging like cigarette warning labels.
    - robertlagrant 3y ago
      Yes - exactly. Big old sticker on every device saying it, that sort of thing.
      - bombcar 3y ago
        If you did it right you could make it a marketing sell point - list the number of guaranteed days left in the UI and then start telling you how much you “beat” the system once that’s past.

alias_neo 3y ago

Customers need to stop buying "connected" smart home devices, but more importantly, legislation needs to prevent this bullshit; I still remember the story of Sonos intentionally bricking up-traded speakers that were perfectly functional so they couldn't be sold on, and some other company (I now forget who) bricking their remote with a firmware update because they no longer wanted to support it. Force anyone who wants to release connected products like this to put the code in Escrow and if they go belly up without a plan, it goes public. Communities across all disciplines have reverse engineered defunct products since forever, imagine what we can do with the source.

anigbrowl 3y ago
legislation needs to prevent this bullshit When are engineers going to understand that the bullshit corporations buy the politicians that write the laws? They don't need to buy all of them, just slightly more than half. They're fine with some rebel types who submit noble-sounding bills for the EFF or whoever to rally around that never go anywhere.
- midasuni 3y ago
  We have fairly strong consumer rights in the UK, and the law does get better in these areas in response to public opinion.
- alias_neo 3y ago
  > When are engineers going to understand that the bullshit corporations buy the politicians that write the laws? Never. Because as engineers we're optimists, if I just resigned to this fact, there'd be no hope left. It's not that we don't understand, it's that we don't accept. Many of us also aren't capitalists, so we can't believe that the "free market" will resolve it either. We build things, somewhat in isolation to the "human problem", some of us (I speak for myself) because technology, machines, are better? easier? more consistent? predictable? reliable? quantifiable? than humans. We can solve technical problems, we can't solve humans being completly greedy, selfish pricks; those corporations buying those politicians are just humans. Engineering is _easy_, compared to people and people problems.

userbinator 3y ago

I feel like, in some circles, the adjective "smart" has gained a highly negative connotation when referring to anything other than a human, as it necessarily implies some sort of resistance to control and ownership.

fxtentacle 3y ago
I feel like "He's as smart as my doorbell." is also not exactly a compliment ;)
martyfmelb 3y ago
That circle would include me. "Smart" is just about synonymous with "connected" these days, and any product with the originating company in its feedback loop represents a risk that the product will start working against the user in some way either immediately or after some honeymoon period.
- ragebol 3y ago
  Agreed, I'm definitely in the same circle. A smart TV means it can run apps basically. There is really nothing smart about that... It would be smart if it would mute itself during commercials, for example. All these 'Smart' things should work for me instead of for the vendor really. Concerning the connected stuff: I ordered a new robot vacuum the other day and checked if it could integrate with Home Assistant and fell into the 'local push/poll' category of integrations [0]. [0] https://www.home-assistant.io/blog/2016/02/12/classifying-the-internet-of-things/#classifiers https://www.home-assistant.io/blog/2016/02/12/classifying-th...
Qwertious 3y ago
IMO, all "smart" devices should be open hardware. Or at least, the electronics should be. A literal toaster being vendor-locked is deranged.
tzs 3y ago
I wonder if the tainting of "smart" over the last few years ever made Kwikset regret naming their entirely mechanical user rekeyable lock system "Smart Key"? Those came out in 2008. For those who haven't seen those locks, they look like normal door locks, with a normal key, and are used just like normal locks (insert key, turn clockwise to lock, counterclockwise to unlock), except that there is a small hole next to the keyway. If you put a working key into one, turn it 90° clockwise, insert a simple tool Kwikset provides into that small hole far enough to press a button at the bottom of the hole, and remove that tool the lock will release the key. You can then, being careful to not rotate the cylinder, pull out the key and put a new different key in. The lock then rekeys itself to that new key, and you can then turn the cylinder counterclockwise 180° to verify this. Then turn the cylinder back 90° clockwise and remove the key and you are done. This is quite convenient. I recently replaced my locks with these. Before I had one brand of knob and deadbolt on the front door, a different brand on of level and deadbolt on the back door, and a third brand of knob on the garage door. Each of these locks was on a different key, so that was 5 keys in total. And I'd long ago lost the garage key and the back door lever key. I bought a Kwikset Smart Key comb knob and deadbolt for the front door, a combo level and deadbolt for the backdoor, and a knob for the garage. So that was 3 different keys. Then I picked the key that had the most variation in the depth of cuts, and went around to the other locks with the rekey tool and rekeyed them all to that key. I also picked up a couple of Kwikset padlocks that use this system and rekeyed them to that key. Later I added a deadbolt to the garage and put it on that key too. I also had a sliding door lock. There doesn't seem to be a Kwikset Smart Key lock in the right form factor for that, but I noticed that the sliding door lock (a PrimeLine E2000) uses Kwickset KW1 keys, which is the same key blank that Smart Key uses. I was able to take that apart and rekey it to match the rest of the locks. My key ring now only needs my car key and one Kwikset key. It's a lot less jingly now. If I'm not going to be using my car I just carry a loose Kwikset key in my pocket.

samwillis 3y ago

This was inevitable, it's always been a secondary thing for British Gas. I worked on the predecessor to Hive back in about '08-'10, the engineering consultancy I worked for designed a version of the "hub" and a number of their security and energy monitoring sensors. It was the first thing I worked on that made it out into consumers hands (v2 of the hub). I remember one day buying a copy of Wired magazine, and it had an article about them. Seeing a product I had designed in that magazine was a really memorable moment. Back then they were not part of British Gas but a Cambridge UK startup called AlertMe. A really good bunch of people with a vision for the smart home. The plan was clearly to start with the security products, then energy monitoring was a secondary market. However after getting a big contract with British Gas to supply monitoring to all their customers, they pivoted almost completely to that - and ultimately they were acquired by them. As I said, they were a really interesting team, their CTO was a former early Acorn employee who had lead RiscOS.

timthorn 3y ago
> As I said, they were a really interesting team, their CTO was a former early Acorn employee who had lead RiscOS He was profiled a few years back, as discussed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24226740 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24226740
alias_neo 3y ago
Sounds like it would have been really cool in its original form, right up my street. Shame big corp came in and destroyed it, I hope everyone was paid hansomly in the takeover at least.
- robertlagrant 3y ago
  > I hope everyone was paid hansomly in the takeover at least That might be a mixed blessing; horses are expensive![0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hansom_cab https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hansom_cab
  - vijayr02 3y ago

39Wc 3y ago

Deceptive writing. It's just the outdated (and presumably insecure) Hive Nano 1, that is being deactivated early, and for a good reason probably. The author should explain the necessity to switch off insecure products and motivate people to stay up to date in terms of IT security. Instead, the text makes it sound like some villain corporation is trying to screw their customers for no good reason at all. https://community.hivehome.com/s/article/Nano1-shutdown-Steps-to-upgrade https://community.hivehome.com/s/article/Nano1-shutdown-Step...

OtomotO 3y ago
So, for a smart home where some parts are actually, well "hidden" in the building you find if feasible to just upgrade? I mean, how much could a house cost, right? Stuff like this should be forbidden. Non-experts simply cannot fathom the consequences of their decisions. Nobody would expect parts of their house need complete replacement after just 7 years (if they were in good condition in the first place and there was no catastrophe) This is not even talking about e-waste and the environmental issues that arise from more high tech garbage
IshKebab 3y ago
Are you just guessing that it's insecure and for some reason that can't be fixed with a software update? Your link doesn't mention that as far as I can see.
gambiting 3y ago
Nano 1 was on sale as recently as 2016. It's only 7 years old - there is literally no reason why they can't keep it working. And if they say they can't they are literally incompetent and their tech department needs to be replaced.

leokennis 3y ago

I’m super late to the “smart home party” but the few smart things I do own are all HomeKit certified, as a requirement for that is that the device needs to work as long as it has local connection to a HomeKit hub (like an iPhone). Internet not required, let alone a connection to a vendors servers. Before I go all in, I’ll need to verify how well this works in practice but at least it should prevent a scenario like the one linked here…

deadbunny 3y ago
Withought getting in the weeds this is generally the right approach. The most important thing is that devices should work without an internet connection. I use Home Assistant as my "hub" so that's another requirement but that's more personal choice.

Animats 3y ago

Most "cloud" services seem to have a short lifespan. Maybe 5 years.

bombcar 3y ago
Unless they’re really established (and even then) you’re about right. Turn the Internet off after installing any smart device and see what happens - that’ll be how it works when they shut down the servers. If it don’t work at least somewhat, send it back.

danw1979 3y ago

If you’re just looking for some basic remote on/off functionality for your heating and hot water, with built in timers, not dependent on any cloud service or app, may I wholeheartedly recommend Shelly relay products. Simple web interface and easy to physically wire up. MQTT if you need to wire them up to HA or Graphite ( power meter varieties) or whatever.

turblety 3y ago

I went all in on the Hive system (heating, cameras, etc) and have only negative things to say about the entire company. Even for their heating systems, do not use them. Don't take my word for it. Go and look at the app reviews. The app is buggy, barely functional and their support is incompetent. Frequently, I'll turn the heating on and the app will (after about 10 seconds) show it's worked. I'll turn off my phone and wonder why the house is still cold. Open the app, and yeah, it didn't actually turn on. The UX is very clunky too. They've tried to make this "app/phone" like dashboard, where you can drag and drop devices into pages. But it's completely broken (on Android, but looking at the reviews, I assume iPhone too). When scrolling/swiping the page just get's stuck half way through. Every update makes the lag/delays and errors more frequent.

gambiting 3y ago
On the other hand - I've had a Hive thermostat for the last 5 years and it works flawlessly. Every time I start it from the app it works. Use it with a combi boiler here in UK and it works absolutely fine. I only have that one device from them so I can't comment on anything other than heating.
- rjh29 3y ago
  Literally getting a new boiler with Hive next week, so that was comforting to hear.

i-use-nixos-btw 3y ago

This is why I self-host. I don’t like the idea of buying something and having no control over how I use it, where my data goes, etc. I strongly urge anyone with a tech interest to get a Raspberry Pi (now that they’re widely available again) and install HomeAssistant. Many of your devices will work through the many plugins available. If you can get your head around Python coroutines (… I can’t but I bodged it) you can implement your own. Some devices will still need to send data to a central server to work, but you can often integrate their APIs until such a time that the service is discontinued. Then search out devices that are known to work with HomeAssistant.

zimpenfish 3y ago
> Many of your devices will work through the many plugins available Alas, the Hive stuff doesn't because BG moved their auth to AWS Cognito and the Python module hasn't yet[1] managed to work out how to keep auth going[2] [1] There is a workaround which involves getting a device token and using that instead but also I think I may have cracked the "refresh token" flow, just need to push a PR. [2] You get 1h expiry on the access tokens with mandatory 2FA. Hilarity ensues.

odiroot 3y ago

I have a Hive thermostat (for heating and hot water) and I really love it. Bought the hubless version on purpose, to avoid exactly such situations. It integrates well with Zigbee2MQTT and Home Assistant though, so I can still control it remotely.

logifail 3y ago

Q: Are Hive smart device customers paying some kind of monthly or annual fee?

domh 3y ago

I recently added a smart thermostat but picked a provider that works completely offline and has a good Home Assistant plugin (Wiser https://www.draytoncontrols.co.uk/products/Smart-Heating/Wiser https://www.draytoncontrols.co.uk/products/Smart-Heating/Wis...). It was recommended to me by people in the trade that Wiser is the "cheap" model, but I'd much rather go for the budget option if it means I can go offline and it still works. Would never touch Nest, Hive, Tado etc, I want this to last longer than any of these companies are willing to provide support. Anyone know of a dumber system that has thermostatic TRVs + per room scheduling? Ideally with an offline screen to administer?

forgotusername6 3y ago

Perhaps someone on here can help me. I'm one of the poor souls who has this device. I ordered the replacement hub late, it arrived while I was on holiday and I only just tried to install it. Unfortunately the migration instructions seem to require that the old device is on and functioning, which it isn't because it is past the 1st of August. I can't find instructions on how to connect the hive 1 thermostat to the new hive hub. If it turns out this is impossible and I need to rewire my boiler I will be very sad indeed. Edit: a quick WhatsApp chat with a British Gas advisor sorted it. For anyone else reading this, the v1 thermostat is compatible with the latest hub

wildekek 3y ago

I really, really don't understand why these simple-ass microcontrollers are running proprietary software instead of something open source like ESPHome or Tasmota. There is no added value in the proprietary software running on an MCU with a sensor, it is all in the service that run on top of them. It infuriates me that all these perfectly fine devices now are junk, because some clown decided that they needed to develop their own "platform".