10 ms·

I have 2 kids. Commuting took a huge fraction of the available time I could be spending with them and for them -- asleep 8, working 8, kids sleep a couple hours

I have 2 kids. Commuting took a huge fraction of the available time I could be spending with them and for them -- asleep 8, working 8, kids sleep a couple hours longer than I do, so absolute max of 6 hours on a workday I could spend doing everything I need and want to do with my kids and spouse. Taking 2 of those hours for commuting is not just 2/24 of the day, it's 1/3 of the total time I have available. Juice is not worth the squeeze.

namdnay 3y ago
Is the problem the office or the commute? If offices, schools/nurseries and housing are all within a 20mn cycle radius the question of remote or in-office work becomes different
- darkclouds 3y ago
  Whilst more time could be spent at home relaxing, I've just had a soak in the bath and have finally worked out why my dog would not come in the bathroom. I'm lying there detecting the foul odour of my neighbours diet wafting through the overflow hole in the bath and basin! At least my supplements are improving my olfactory bulb, who would have thought being on a mains water supply is a low level neighbourly germ warfare zone. No wonder the water companies tell us to spend no more than 4mins in the shower!
  - CommieBobDole 3y ago
    > the foul odour of my neighbours diet wafting through the overflow hole You have a plumbing problem - both the drain and the overflow should be protected by the trap, preventing intrusion of sewer gases and other odors.
    - darkclouds 3y ago
      This seems to be pushing the fluid in the trap, and I say that because I can hear it from the basin which has its own trap and the bath and the toilet. I can watch the water in the toilet rising and then receding when the basin and sink gurgle. I also would not put anything past the US and UK military around here.
      - CommieBobDole 3y ago
        Vent stack is probably blocked. Or possibly not connected in the first place, if somebody did a lousy job with the plumbing. Basically, the sewer line should be vented to air on top of the building somewhere, or in some cases air could be let in via an air admittance valve. This should prevent the creation of a vacuum that would cause gurgling or odors.
        darkclouds 3y ago
        Havent checked the vent stack, but it was clear as far as I could look down when I put the vent on top of it. Maybe some builders rubble blocking things.
- ThunderSizzle 3y ago
  It doesn't much, because that's still 40 minutes and I can't see my family during my coffee breaks. I prefer my water cooler chat to be with my family, not random coworkers.
- chii 3y ago
  But location is a limited resource - and thus, the cost of living (such as real estate) in a location that is of such convenience would be higher than a further away location. Therefore, you're just traded the time for money. WFH solves both problems at once. AKA, it increases efficiency of the entire system.
- makeitdouble 3y ago
  It changes, but not that much. Being 20 min from home is still a lot more than 0 min. Having a quick chat when your kids get back from school, taking a 10 min break with your family, spending 15min cooking a fresh lunch instead of waiting in line at the restaurant etc. Of course not everyone wants that proximity, but if you do that's a big deal.
- 7thaccount 3y ago
  I mean...if I could teleport instantaneously, then yes, the office would be less of a problem. I could work directly with co-workers and then pop up back home for my breaks and lunch and so on. But that isn't possible at present (maybe ever). Even if a close cycling trip, that's still a burden most don't want to deal with anymore. Just think about cycling in a heat wave or thunderstorm (they're common where I live and dense enough to where being outside for just a second is the equivalent to jumping in a lake) It is a little nicer from an efficiency standpoint to have more experienced workers around to train the new ones, but that doesn't change the fact that those experienced workers are now quite mobile and can get a new job with little effort. When my old company went to hybrid we started immediately losing the best talent. It was a trickle at first and then a dam bursting. They're finally accepting remote-only because they don't have a choice. Their engineering staff went from an average of 8+ years of service to like maybe 3, and that has huge inefficiency losses.
- saiya-jin 3y ago
  Don't know about your location, but where I live (Switzerland), kindergarten or school is decided based on location people live, not work. You can't just arbitrarily pick any school you want your kid to attend to (or you can but then you pay non-trivially). Also, most of us change work more often than where we live (wasn't true for me in the past but should be from now on, and I think I was an outlier). Another point - moving kids older then say 6 between schools/locations is pretty harsh on them too. For every single one that thrives with such dramatic changes and finds new friends easily there are tens who struggle.
- throwbadubadu 3y ago
  And then move as often as you change jobs? Never settle in somewhere and build something up? (I'm not too often changing employers, in fact they moved offices to some more distant location to ""optimize"" than I changed jobs..)
- strikelaserclaw 3y ago
  In most of the places the HN crowd works, it is hard to live in close proximity to the office with a family, you need to be dual income earning the big bucks and if you live in a low col area, they you have no guarantee where your office is located because jobs aren't clustered close to each other.
- mats852 3y ago
  WFH, everything is in a 5 minutes car or 15 mins walk radius for us. The office would be 1h+ of commute away. And all that just to go there and put noise cancelling headphones to concentrate on my work. But it's not only that. Kids need more than just being transported, fed and put to bed. You need to rush home to cook, do chores because you didn't have time to pick up the mess in the morning, take care of them. Then once they are asleep, more chores, and then your free time starts at 9-10pm, until you crash. Being at home, especially flex time, nothing prevents you from doing laundry, and because you eat at home, you can do a bit more dishes after lunch, start cooking something for supper, etc. It alleviates my routine a lot and I also work more time with less stress.
  - varjag 3y ago
    It's crazy how upset this website gets about an inconsiderate coworker breaking them from the "zone" but doing laundry in worktime is the natural order of things.
    - BlargMcLarg 3y ago
      Sincerely, who gives a flying ** as long as things get done? All I can tell you, having 2 loud conversations going on in an open office almost the entire day is going to mess my performance up far more than taking a 30 minute break hanging laundry while I can still hear myself think. But the former is considered 'business as usual' and the latter is considered a no-no. You'd think for once the money people would think about the money, not the method.
      - varjag 3y ago
        [flagged]
        BlargMcLarg 3y ago
        Just say what you want to say instead of hiding behind your snide comments. Those methods already exist, albeit weak, and business management still routinely favors theatrics over measurements. You can put their noses on the metrics clearly pointing out the slackers, and they will get personal and touchy-feely as to why the metrics aren't correct. You can point out the plethora of studies and arrogantly they will believe they know better. Of all the hills to die on regarding performance, taking a break to do laundry certainly isn't it.
- kkfx 3y ago
  > Is the problem the office or the commute? What if they are at home? Because even with Star Trek teleport WFH means do not need to dress up accordingly to some common social dress code, enough for traveling outside depending on the season and so on. I WFH in my underwire in a dedicated, locked, room at my own home in my own environment. So the problem is ALSO the office, not just the commute. The problem is the absurdity of keeping up models that was needed in the past, but have no reason today for most, they are needed only by some giant capital who profit pasturing humans like cows. This is the problem: a society not centered on actual tech levels and for the people instead of for exploiting the most for the interests of a very little cohort.
- jen20 3y ago
  It’s both. I don’t want to cycle 20 minutes when it’s 105F outside (today), or 30F outside (February). Frankly it could be a 5 minute cycle and it’s not going to happen in those temperatures. Secondly, when I get there, I don’t want to sit in an open plan hell hole listening to other people on video calls talking about things which are irrelevant to me because there aren’t enough meeting rooms with AV equipment. I like the office more than most of my coworkers like the office. And I hate the office.
- zamalek 3y ago
  If commuting was counted and paid as a job function (which it categorically should be if your employer is demanding it), I might consider it. The other issue is that I've invested a lot into my home office. It's comfy, ergonomic, and extremely unlikely to be matched by the bargain bin garbage that employers furnish with.
- sanderjd 3y ago
  Yes this is true. I work remotely now but I often choose to "commute" into town via bike or car, I'd say more days than not most weeks. But I would never go more than ~20 minutes by choice.
Wowfunhappy 3y ago
I think the fundamental problem you've identified is the workday is too long. 40 hours a week is a lot, and most people work more than just 40 hours, sometimes much more. Why have society's productivity gains not gone into reducing the time we spend working? Why do we seem to have ever-less free time? Here's the thing: long term, I don't think work-from-home is a good way to reclaim time. Losing the geographic separation of an office makes it easier to start doing work outside of normal hours. Expectations of being always-available will continue to increase—after all, you're already in your work environment, so what is your excuse for not completing that task on Saturday?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- Eisenstein 3y ago
  In case you are interested, here are two tips I found for remembering loose vs lose: 1) add an 'r' at the end and pronounce it in your head (looser, loser) 2) convert to past tense (loosed, lost)
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - eatbitseveryday 3y ago
    loose goose works not lose gose
  - layer8 3y ago
    Loose is visually more loose (wide). Lose in comparison loses an “o”.
- leipert 3y ago
  Shitty workplaces will be shitty workplaces. You can have traditional offices where work-hours are respected, and you can have traditional offices where everyone is "forced" into doing crunches and staying until midnight. I think one thing people always misunderstand it: WFH doesn't need to mean separating work and home is impossible. Separate room that you can close if you have a house. Or going to a co-working space. Or in my case: Renting a 2-people office with a colleague.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

namdnay 3y ago

Is the problem the office or the commute? If offices, schools/nurseries and housing are all within a 20mn cycle radius the question of remote or in-office work becomes different

darkclouds 3y ago
Whilst more time could be spent at home relaxing, I've just had a soak in the bath and have finally worked out why my dog would not come in the bathroom. I'm lying there detecting the foul odour of my neighbours diet wafting through the overflow hole in the bath and basin! At least my supplements are improving my olfactory bulb, who would have thought being on a mains water supply is a low level neighbourly germ warfare zone. No wonder the water companies tell us to spend no more than 4mins in the shower!
- CommieBobDole 3y ago
  > the foul odour of my neighbours diet wafting through the overflow hole You have a plumbing problem - both the drain and the overflow should be protected by the trap, preventing intrusion of sewer gases and other odors.
  - darkclouds 3y ago
    This seems to be pushing the fluid in the trap, and I say that because I can hear it from the basin which has its own trap and the bath and the toilet. I can watch the water in the toilet rising and then receding when the basin and sink gurgle. I also would not put anything past the US and UK military around here.
    - CommieBobDole 3y ago
      Vent stack is probably blocked. Or possibly not connected in the first place, if somebody did a lousy job with the plumbing. Basically, the sewer line should be vented to air on top of the building somewhere, or in some cases air could be let in via an air admittance valve. This should prevent the creation of a vacuum that would cause gurgling or odors.
      - darkclouds 3y ago
        Havent checked the vent stack, but it was clear as far as I could look down when I put the vent on top of it. Maybe some builders rubble blocking things.
ThunderSizzle 3y ago
It doesn't much, because that's still 40 minutes and I can't see my family during my coffee breaks. I prefer my water cooler chat to be with my family, not random coworkers.
chii 3y ago
But location is a limited resource - and thus, the cost of living (such as real estate) in a location that is of such convenience would be higher than a further away location. Therefore, you're just traded the time for money. WFH solves both problems at once. AKA, it increases efficiency of the entire system.
makeitdouble 3y ago
It changes, but not that much. Being 20 min from home is still a lot more than 0 min. Having a quick chat when your kids get back from school, taking a 10 min break with your family, spending 15min cooking a fresh lunch instead of waiting in line at the restaurant etc. Of course not everyone wants that proximity, but if you do that's a big deal.
7thaccount 3y ago
I mean...if I could teleport instantaneously, then yes, the office would be less of a problem. I could work directly with co-workers and then pop up back home for my breaks and lunch and so on. But that isn't possible at present (maybe ever). Even if a close cycling trip, that's still a burden most don't want to deal with anymore. Just think about cycling in a heat wave or thunderstorm (they're common where I live and dense enough to where being outside for just a second is the equivalent to jumping in a lake) It is a little nicer from an efficiency standpoint to have more experienced workers around to train the new ones, but that doesn't change the fact that those experienced workers are now quite mobile and can get a new job with little effort. When my old company went to hybrid we started immediately losing the best talent. It was a trickle at first and then a dam bursting. They're finally accepting remote-only because they don't have a choice. Their engineering staff went from an average of 8+ years of service to like maybe 3, and that has huge inefficiency losses.
saiya-jin 3y ago
Don't know about your location, but where I live (Switzerland), kindergarten or school is decided based on location people live, not work. You can't just arbitrarily pick any school you want your kid to attend to (or you can but then you pay non-trivially). Also, most of us change work more often than where we live (wasn't true for me in the past but should be from now on, and I think I was an outlier). Another point - moving kids older then say 6 between schools/locations is pretty harsh on them too. For every single one that thrives with such dramatic changes and finds new friends easily there are tens who struggle.
throwbadubadu 3y ago
And then move as often as you change jobs? Never settle in somewhere and build something up? (I'm not too often changing employers, in fact they moved offices to some more distant location to ""optimize"" than I changed jobs..)
strikelaserclaw 3y ago
In most of the places the HN crowd works, it is hard to live in close proximity to the office with a family, you need to be dual income earning the big bucks and if you live in a low col area, they you have no guarantee where your office is located because jobs aren't clustered close to each other.
mats852 3y ago
WFH, everything is in a 5 minutes car or 15 mins walk radius for us. The office would be 1h+ of commute away. And all that just to go there and put noise cancelling headphones to concentrate on my work. But it's not only that. Kids need more than just being transported, fed and put to bed. You need to rush home to cook, do chores because you didn't have time to pick up the mess in the morning, take care of them. Then once they are asleep, more chores, and then your free time starts at 9-10pm, until you crash. Being at home, especially flex time, nothing prevents you from doing laundry, and because you eat at home, you can do a bit more dishes after lunch, start cooking something for supper, etc. It alleviates my routine a lot and I also work more time with less stress.
- varjag 3y ago
  It's crazy how upset this website gets about an inconsiderate coworker breaking them from the "zone" but doing laundry in worktime is the natural order of things.
  - BlargMcLarg 3y ago
    Sincerely, who gives a flying ** as long as things get done? All I can tell you, having 2 loud conversations going on in an open office almost the entire day is going to mess my performance up far more than taking a 30 minute break hanging laundry while I can still hear myself think. But the former is considered 'business as usual' and the latter is considered a no-no. You'd think for once the money people would think about the money, not the method.
    - varjag 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - BlargMcLarg 3y ago
        Just say what you want to say instead of hiding behind your snide comments. Those methods already exist, albeit weak, and business management still routinely favors theatrics over measurements. You can put their noses on the metrics clearly pointing out the slackers, and they will get personal and touchy-feely as to why the metrics aren't correct. You can point out the plethora of studies and arrogantly they will believe they know better. Of all the hills to die on regarding performance, taking a break to do laundry certainly isn't it.
kkfx 3y ago
> Is the problem the office or the commute? What if they are at home? Because even with Star Trek teleport WFH means do not need to dress up accordingly to some common social dress code, enough for traveling outside depending on the season and so on. I WFH in my underwire in a dedicated, locked, room at my own home in my own environment. So the problem is ALSO the office, not just the commute. The problem is the absurdity of keeping up models that was needed in the past, but have no reason today for most, they are needed only by some giant capital who profit pasturing humans like cows. This is the problem: a society not centered on actual tech levels and for the people instead of for exploiting the most for the interests of a very little cohort.
jen20 3y ago
It’s both. I don’t want to cycle 20 minutes when it’s 105F outside (today), or 30F outside (February). Frankly it could be a 5 minute cycle and it’s not going to happen in those temperatures. Secondly, when I get there, I don’t want to sit in an open plan hell hole listening to other people on video calls talking about things which are irrelevant to me because there aren’t enough meeting rooms with AV equipment. I like the office more than most of my coworkers like the office. And I hate the office.
zamalek 3y ago
If commuting was counted and paid as a job function (which it categorically should be if your employer is demanding it), I might consider it. The other issue is that I've invested a lot into my home office. It's comfy, ergonomic, and extremely unlikely to be matched by the bargain bin garbage that employers furnish with.
sanderjd 3y ago
Yes this is true. I work remotely now but I often choose to "commute" into town via bike or car, I'd say more days than not most weeks. But I would never go more than ~20 minutes by choice.

Wowfunhappy 3y ago

I think the fundamental problem you've identified is the workday is too long. 40 hours a week is a lot, and most people work more than just 40 hours, sometimes much more. Why have society's productivity gains not gone into reducing the time we spend working? Why do we seem to have ever-less free time? Here's the thing: long term, I don't think work-from-home is a good way to reclaim time. Losing the geographic separation of an office makes it easier to start doing work outside of normal hours. Expectations of being always-available will continue to increase—after all, you're already in your work environment, so what is your excuse for not completing that task on Saturday?

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
Eisenstein 3y ago
In case you are interested, here are two tips I found for remembering loose vs lose: 1) add an 'r' at the end and pronounce it in your head (looser, loser) 2) convert to past tense (loosed, lost)
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- eatbitseveryday 3y ago
  loose goose works not lose gose
- layer8 3y ago
  Loose is visually more loose (wide). Lose in comparison loses an “o”.
leipert 3y ago
Shitty workplaces will be shitty workplaces. You can have traditional offices where work-hours are respected, and you can have traditional offices where everyone is "forced" into doing crunches and staying until midnight. I think one thing people always misunderstand it: WFH doesn't need to mean separating work and home is impossible. Separate room that you can close if you have a house. Or going to a co-working space. Or in my case: Renting a 2-people office with a colleague.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]