7 ms·

The CFC ban really threw the baby out with the bathwater. We went from "let's put this stuff into every household item, and release it into the atmosphere by t

by p-e-w 3y ago

The CFC ban really threw the baby out with the bathwater. We went from "let's put this stuff into every household item, and release it into the atmosphere by the billions of tons" to "nothing must ever contain CFCs ever again, including critical medical products that use only insignificant amounts". Similar mistakes were made with asbestos and dental amalgam, where the panicked removal often released more contaminants than would have been during the item's entire lifetime otherwise, and the substitute materials were later found to have their own problems. There's a big lesson in this for future regulatory action regarding environmental issues.

crote 3y ago
Interestingly this did not happen with lead. The regulations for that have significant exceptions for things like medical technology, aviation, military use, and equipment only used by trained professionals. And of course the one big massive hole: aviation fuel.
- p-e-w 3y ago
  Lead is still everywhere: In fishing ballast, in curtains, in camera stands, ... I used to love removing those little lead pellets from curtain weight ropes. It wouldn't have crossed my mind to so much as wash my hands afterwards. I've seen children chewing on fishing lead, and nobody seemed to even be aware there's a risk involved. I mean, people used to ADD LEAD TO THEIR WINE(!!!) by the grams to give it that "heavy sweetness". Still, it took centuries for the population at large to notice that this might be a problem.
  - adastra22 3y ago
    And soon, every single piece of electronics will be lead apatite…
    - Cthulhu_ 3y ago
      Nah, that's not how any of it works, you can stop fearmongering. Even if so, it's not lead but a material composed with lead atoms, just like how lead is used now in many alloys without danger. I don't understand the low key fearmongering.
      - Eduard 3y ago
        >> And soon, every single piece of electronics will be lead apatite… > Nah, that's not how any of it works, you can stop fearmongering. Even if so, it's not lead but a material composed with lead atoms, just like how lead is used now in many alloys without danger. I don't understand the low key fearmongering. Nah, that's not fearmongering. That is plain reasoning within the context of a valid concerned discussion of lead. Previous uses of lead, historically incorrectly assumed to be (using your words) "without danger", have been phased out for a long time (e.g. lead additives for car gasoline), or are being actively replaced (e.g. lead-based water pipes in homes). https://www.epa.gov/lead/learn-about-lead https://www.epa.gov/lead/learn-about-lead LK-99, the possible superconductor implied in adastra22's lead apatite comment, is 74 percent lead by mass. Due to lead's negative environmental and health impacts ( https://echa.europa.eu/hot-topics/lead https://echa.europa.eu/hot-topics/lead ) it is regulated e.g. by REACH ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Registration,_Evaluation,_Authorisation_and_Restriction_of_Chemicals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Registration,_Evaluation,_Auth... ) and the Toxic Substances Control Act of 1976 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_Substances_Control_Act_of_1976 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_Substances_Control_Act_o... ). I up the ante: imagine lead-based superconductor technology becomes a mass market reality, and therefore lead would be used in everyday appliances such as electrical cables, floating toys etc. Nobody wants bulk masses of lead landing in trash uncontrollably.
        Timon3 3y ago
        You are using the same logic as anti-vaxxers who point at the ingredients of vaccines and say "there's mercury in there, it MUST be bad for you!". Lead as part of a bigger molecule behaves differently from lead as a standalone metal.
        3y ago
- rootsudo 3y ago
  No longer with Aviation fuel. FAA allows unleaded AVgas now. And it isn't a hole, it is needed for anti-knock. Most General Aviation (GA) Planes really do run on very basic carb systems (with magnetos!) and believe me, the Air Fuel (AF) mixture is a big deal when you are at 10,000 feet or so, especially when it is warm. When it's cold it's easier to fly, and also less lead is needed AFAIK.
- ShadowBanThis01 3y ago
  Not aviation fuel in general. Jet fuel does not contain lead. Only aviation GASOLINE for piston engines contains lead, and that can finally be phased out now that unleaded replacements are available for the whole fleet.
eesmith 3y ago
You write "nothing must ever contain CFCs ever again, including critical medical products that use only insignificant amounts" while Wikipedia at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal_Protocol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal_Protocol writes: > There were a few exceptions for "essential uses" where no acceptable substitutes were initially found (for example, in the past metered dose inhalers commonly used to treat asthma and chronic obstructive pulmonary disease were exempt) or Halon fire suppression systems used in submarines and aircraft (but not in general industry). You write "and the substitute materials were later found to have their own problems." Could you be more specific? I mean, there's no wonder material that has no problems. I don't think you mean that trivial observation, so do you mean the substitutes overall were more harmful than asbestos, across the full product cycle from mining to disposal? And, does "the panicked removal" mean to include the use of unlicensed workers not following legal requirements for removal? As I recall, predatory contractors did take advantage of the situation, but then what's the lesson - that we need more government oversight of all building contract work?
- takeda 3y ago
  Regarding "its on problems" I think patent commenter was primarily talking about amalgamated filings. The scare is that amalgamated filings contained mercury. The thing is that they were bonded with silver which made them safe. The thing is that some dentists are often removing them, to replace with other filings. The process exposes patient to mercury and the alternative filings often don't last as long as the amalgamated one.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - eesmith 3y ago
    Then why mention asbestos? Even limiting it to dental amalgam, p-e-w says there is a lesson for future regulatory action. What is that lesson? I don't recall the government ever said amalgam fillings should be removed, and the FDA now certainly says to leave them in: https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/dental-devices/dental-amalgam-fillings#removed https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/dental-devices/dental-am... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dental_amalgam_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dental_amalgam_controversy makes it seem like much of the controversy came from people "using pseudoscience to scare patients into more lucrative treatment options", not the government. The major new regulations in the US seems to be installing filters at the dentists' to keep mercury waste out of the public sewer system. I therefore don't see the lesson from regulating CFCs, nor from asbestos, nor from dental amalgam.
light_hue_1 3y ago
The big lesson is that CFC removal has been a massive win for humanity and that kind of categorical and decisive climate action is exactly what we need in the future! https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220321-what-happened-to-the-worlds-ozone-hole https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220321-what-happened-to... We have sadly not applied the same ideas to asbestos. We definitely need to. And to many other terrible materials that poison us and our environment all the time (like PFAS). This was not a mistake. It was a humanity saving decision. It's the blueprint to save us from the climate catastrophe.
- p-e-w 3y ago
  > The big lesson is that CFC removal has been a massive win for humanity and that kind of categorical and decisive climate action is exactly what we need in the future! That's one lesson. Another lesson is that when powerful people take such celebrated "decisive" action, less powerful people get trampled underfoot, in this case through potentially crippling medical costs. > This was not a mistake. It was a humanity saving decision. The phasing out of CFCs was not a mistake. The way it was implemented, however, contained many mistakes, some of which have negatively impacted many lives, as illustrated by the top-level comment.
  - tmpX7dMeXU 3y ago
    The lesson is that the US’s medical system is ridiculous.
  - dale_glass 3y ago
    The lesson has nothing to do with the CFC removal. The problem isn't that CFC got removed. The problem is that a new patent got granted for an insignificant change. Why that change happened in the first place doesn't matter.
    - sneak 3y ago
      No, the CFCs in medical inhalers were of insignificant quantity and should not have been changed. The new propellants are equal-to-slightly-inferior, in my experience.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

by p-e-w 3y ago

crote 3y ago

Interestingly this did not happen with lead. The regulations for that have significant exceptions for things like medical technology, aviation, military use, and equipment only used by trained professionals. And of course the one big massive hole: aviation fuel.

p-e-w 3y ago
Lead is still everywhere: In fishing ballast, in curtains, in camera stands, ... I used to love removing those little lead pellets from curtain weight ropes. It wouldn't have crossed my mind to so much as wash my hands afterwards. I've seen children chewing on fishing lead, and nobody seemed to even be aware there's a risk involved. I mean, people used to ADD LEAD TO THEIR WINE(!!!) by the grams to give it that "heavy sweetness". Still, it took centuries for the population at large to notice that this might be a problem.
- adastra22 3y ago
  And soon, every single piece of electronics will be lead apatite…
  - Cthulhu_ 3y ago
    Nah, that's not how any of it works, you can stop fearmongering. Even if so, it's not lead but a material composed with lead atoms, just like how lead is used now in many alloys without danger. I don't understand the low key fearmongering.
    - Eduard 3y ago
      >> And soon, every single piece of electronics will be lead apatite… > Nah, that's not how any of it works, you can stop fearmongering. Even if so, it's not lead but a material composed with lead atoms, just like how lead is used now in many alloys without danger. I don't understand the low key fearmongering. Nah, that's not fearmongering. That is plain reasoning within the context of a valid concerned discussion of lead. Previous uses of lead, historically incorrectly assumed to be (using your words) "without danger", have been phased out for a long time (e.g. lead additives for car gasoline), or are being actively replaced (e.g. lead-based water pipes in homes). https://www.epa.gov/lead/learn-about-lead https://www.epa.gov/lead/learn-about-lead LK-99, the possible superconductor implied in adastra22's lead apatite comment, is 74 percent lead by mass. Due to lead's negative environmental and health impacts ( https://echa.europa.eu/hot-topics/lead https://echa.europa.eu/hot-topics/lead ) it is regulated e.g. by REACH ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Registration,_Evaluation,_Authorisation_and_Restriction_of_Chemicals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Registration,_Evaluation,_Auth... ) and the Toxic Substances Control Act of 1976 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_Substances_Control_Act_of_1976 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_Substances_Control_Act_o... ). I up the ante: imagine lead-based superconductor technology becomes a mass market reality, and therefore lead would be used in everyday appliances such as electrical cables, floating toys etc. Nobody wants bulk masses of lead landing in trash uncontrollably.
      - Timon3 3y ago
        You are using the same logic as anti-vaxxers who point at the ingredients of vaccines and say "there's mercury in there, it MUST be bad for you!". Lead as part of a bigger molecule behaves differently from lead as a standalone metal.
        3y ago
rootsudo 3y ago
No longer with Aviation fuel. FAA allows unleaded AVgas now. And it isn't a hole, it is needed for anti-knock. Most General Aviation (GA) Planes really do run on very basic carb systems (with magnetos!) and believe me, the Air Fuel (AF) mixture is a big deal when you are at 10,000 feet or so, especially when it is warm. When it's cold it's easier to fly, and also less lead is needed AFAIK.
ShadowBanThis01 3y ago
Not aviation fuel in general. Jet fuel does not contain lead. Only aviation GASOLINE for piston engines contains lead, and that can finally be phased out now that unleaded replacements are available for the whole fleet.

eesmith 3y ago

You write "nothing must ever contain CFCs ever again, including critical medical products that use only insignificant amounts" while Wikipedia at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal_Protocol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal_Protocol writes: > There were a few exceptions for "essential uses" where no acceptable substitutes were initially found (for example, in the past metered dose inhalers commonly used to treat asthma and chronic obstructive pulmonary disease were exempt) or Halon fire suppression systems used in submarines and aircraft (but not in general industry). You write "and the substitute materials were later found to have their own problems." Could you be more specific? I mean, there's no wonder material that has no problems. I don't think you mean that trivial observation, so do you mean the substitutes overall were more harmful than asbestos, across the full product cycle from mining to disposal? And, does "the panicked removal" mean to include the use of unlicensed workers not following legal requirements for removal? As I recall, predatory contractors did take advantage of the situation, but then what's the lesson - that we need more government oversight of all building contract work?

takeda 3y ago
Regarding "its on problems" I think patent commenter was primarily talking about amalgamated filings. The scare is that amalgamated filings contained mercury. The thing is that they were bonded with silver which made them safe. The thing is that some dentists are often removing them, to replace with other filings. The process exposes patient to mercury and the alternative filings often don't last as long as the amalgamated one.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- eesmith 3y ago
  Then why mention asbestos? Even limiting it to dental amalgam, p-e-w says there is a lesson for future regulatory action. What is that lesson? I don't recall the government ever said amalgam fillings should be removed, and the FDA now certainly says to leave them in: https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/dental-devices/dental-amalgam-fillings#removed https://www.fda.gov/medical-devices/dental-devices/dental-am... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dental_amalgam_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dental_amalgam_controversy makes it seem like much of the controversy came from people "using pseudoscience to scare patients into more lucrative treatment options", not the government. The major new regulations in the US seems to be installing filters at the dentists' to keep mercury waste out of the public sewer system. I therefore don't see the lesson from regulating CFCs, nor from asbestos, nor from dental amalgam.

light_hue_1 3y ago

The big lesson is that CFC removal has been a massive win for humanity and that kind of categorical and decisive climate action is exactly what we need in the future! https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220321-what-happened-to-the-worlds-ozone-hole https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220321-what-happened-to... We have sadly not applied the same ideas to asbestos. We definitely need to. And to many other terrible materials that poison us and our environment all the time (like PFAS). This was not a mistake. It was a humanity saving decision. It's the blueprint to save us from the climate catastrophe.

p-e-w 3y ago
> The big lesson is that CFC removal has been a massive win for humanity and that kind of categorical and decisive climate action is exactly what we need in the future! That's one lesson. Another lesson is that when powerful people take such celebrated "decisive" action, less powerful people get trampled underfoot, in this case through potentially crippling medical costs. > This was not a mistake. It was a humanity saving decision. The phasing out of CFCs was not a mistake. The way it was implemented, however, contained many mistakes, some of which have negatively impacted many lives, as illustrated by the top-level comment.
- tmpX7dMeXU 3y ago
  The lesson is that the US’s medical system is ridiculous.
- dale_glass 3y ago
  The lesson has nothing to do with the CFC removal. The problem isn't that CFC got removed. The problem is that a new patent got granted for an insignificant change. Why that change happened in the first place doesn't matter.
  - sneak 3y ago
    No, the CFCs in medical inhalers were of insignificant quantity and should not have been changed. The new propellants are equal-to-slightly-inferior, in my experience.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]