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Intel Arc A580 could be the next great affordable GPU
- fbdab103 3y agoIs there any potential on the horizon for an Intel card to work with CUDA?
- snnn 3y agoBet on WebGPU. Intel and Google are the two main drafters of WebGPU spec. I can tell you that the card definitely will support WebGPU well, and WebGPU is not just for web. It will run on any device with a very small footprint runtime library and does not need a browser.
- pjmlp 3y agoWebGPU isn't polyglot as CUDA, so already out of question, let alone non existing tooling like NInsights.
- WanderPanda 3y agoWhat do you mean by polyglot? Things like CUDA.jl?
- pjmlp 3y agoBeing able to write C, C++, Fortran, Haskell, Java, C#, F#, Futhark, Julia code to run on the GPU, or any other language with a compiler toolchain able to target PTX bytecode. And the related graphical tooling for debugging such workflows when stuff goes wrong on the GPU.
- monocasa 3y agoNot any time soon. CUDA is very Nvidia specific.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- jms55 3y agoWhen people say CUDA is Nvidia specific, I don't think they realize _how_ specific. It's not just a matter of having the API implementation. CUDA does things like depend on specific scheduler behavior for GPU threads in order to guarantee forward progress, allowing more efficient single-pass computation routines. Or allowing CUDA kernels to launch additional kernels or allocate GPU memory from within the kernel, without host communication. Or checking the GPU architecture and performing specific micro-optimizations designed around that hardware's internal design. GPU's are nothing like CPU's, in that the x86 architecture is fairly stable. There's not a _ton_ of difference between different CPUs. Sure, performance characteristics and cache sizes might be different, but generally they have the same instruction set. Each GPU generation is basically a completely different architecture, much less between GPU companies. That's (partly) why Vulkan is so complicated - it tries to support the lowest spec 2013 mobile GPU, and the highest spec 2023 desktop GPU in one single API.
- nologic01 3y agoThis is the result of GPU computationally intensive tasks not being as simply defined as the CPU workloads. It was always thus for the various accelerators and HPC designs. They must make design choices that favor a relatively narrow range of computational patterns whereas the CPU will happily chew through a wider range of instruction sequences with the same performance. The corresponding GPU software complexity is something that feels not quite appreciated. Yet if we are going to see the massive adoption of GPU's that the market projects, with multiple providers of hardware, we'll need some serious advances of the software side.
- pjmlp 3y agoI think we need more stuff like Futhark or StarLisp. Being able to describe GPU computations in a declarative way, with a driver similar to an SQL query optimizer, distributing the load.
- 3y ago
- pjmlp 3y agoAny CUDA alternative has to be on the same level supporting polyglot programming, IDE and graphical debugging, libraries. Alternatives based on C or shading languages, have already lost before the game has even started.
- kristianp 3y agoWhat's so important about polyglot support? Isn't CUDA code similar to C?
- pjmlp 3y agoYes, if you are stuck on a version older than CUDA 3.0. CUDA supports C, C++20 (minus modules currently), Fortran and has Python bindings, additional plenty of alternative toolchains for PTX bytecode exist, some of which with NVidia's official backing, for Haskell, .NET, Java, Futhark, Julia, and whoever wants to target PTX.
- imtringued 3y agoYou keep posting this but the problem with AMD isn't some luxury problem like that. The problem is that the driver crashes.
- pjmlp 3y agoDrivers not crashing is basic stuff, alone fixing them isn't going to change anything, unless ROCm can actually provide similar tooling.
- catchnear4321 3y ago“drivers not crashing is basic stuff” sounds like an argument for not bothering with anything that would rely on the cards, like tooling, because what’s the point if the drivers are just going to crash. it would be like saying it isn’t enough for your car to run to win a race. while that may be true, if you enter a non-running car into a race, your car isn’t the biggest hindrance to your success.
- brucethemoose2 3y agoOpenVINO is super easy in PyTorch and a few other places. And there are other specific efforts like Embree (which now supports Intel GPU rendering), and Vukan ML efforts like Apache TVM and MLIR-based projects.
- ksec 3y agoI dont want to be pessimistic but that is still a lot of "if" and "could". I think they are still at least 2 years away from seriously competing against Nvidia. And this is 6 years after Raja has taken their GPU team lead ( and now left ).
- fbdab103 3y agoI do not think it needs to trade blows on performance, just something that can be in the market nipping at the low-mid tier market is an improvement from the current conditions. We are currently in a market with 1.5 suppliers.
- snnn 3y agoI think Intel has occupied the low-end laptop market. Nowadays nobody wants to build a laptop on ARM(except Apple). Chromebooks still have a large market, and they do not need any fancy GPU.
- catchnear4321 3y agoa low end laptop is just a windows equivalent of a chromebook. the hardware may even mostly match. it can run windows, and it can run about one thing at a time. with a junk gpu. like a chromebook. there are still plenty of arm models available. many of which are really just tablet hardware in a clamshell. which, so are many of the intel models if you look closely. it isn’t so much intel occupying the low end laptop space, as commodity tablet hardware.
- qwytw 3y agoAfter all the driver updates a770/750 already seem to be quite competitive in that segment already even if the launch was quite rough.
- ororroro 3y agoIntel has a habit of claiming victory before releasing and then furiously fixing bugs post release to achieve near parity in general and small victories in limited scenarios. Their bug fixing velocity is impressive though. There is such a vibrant community of independent reviewers now that they don't get away with it like they used to.
- WhereIsTheTruth 3y ago> AMD have been slacking on low-end graphics card releases this gen That's blatant misinformation, this A580 seems on par with RX 7600, same price, AMD has lower TDP, it was released May 2023, and the journalist dare to say AMD has been slacking off?! What Intel doing for releasing same GPU as competition 1 year later?!
- samspenc 3y agoYeah if I look up Intel's GPUs in the open-source Blender benchmark for 3D performance [1], the leading Intel Arc A770 GPU is slower than ... the NVidia GeForce RTX 2070?! Which came out in 2019 [2], so Intel's latest GPUs are slower than NVidia's chips that are 2 generations and 4 years old. - [1] https://opendata.blender.org/benchmarks/query/?compute_type=OPTIX&compute_type=CUDA&compute_type=HIP&compute_type=METAL&compute_type=ONEAPI&group_by=device_name&blender_version=3.6.0 - [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GeForce_20_series
- jdboyd 3y agoThe Arc A770 came out in the time of the 30x0 series, so it would be more fair to say that it is slower than a higher end card one generation older than it. That isn't an uncommon occurrence. For instance, the 2070s are often faster than the 3060s, and the A770 was supposed to be roughly aiming for 3060 performance. Overall, I'd call it close enough in performance that I'd be interested in giving it a try. On the work side, I worry more about being bitten by lack of CUDA (although I like the look of SYCL that Intel/Kronos push as an alternative), and on the gaming side, I worry more about how if DX10/DX11 titles will ever really get sorted out. Still, when I get a desktop that supports Resizable BAR, I will likely put an Intel GPU in that machine to give it a try.
- AlotOfReading 3y agoReleasing a competitive GPU as a first-gen product and only being a year late is impressive as hell. Let me go through why it's hard to release GPUs at the right time as someone who's done this at a different company. Development probably started 3-5 years ago, before COVID. They would have estimated what AMD/Nvidia's performance would be that far out and what TSMC's process would look like, then sketched out something that might meet a reasonable performance/cost target, with random guesses at a bunch of important and completely unknown factors like driver quality. Then COVID hit and the entire manufacturing world descended into utter chaos for the better part of 2 years. This is probably a large factor behind why Intel didn't manage their initial 2020/2021 estimates, with another part being that management at any company has no idea how to estimate silicon timelines. On top of that, the 10, 20, and 30 series all had completely different performance increases, probably generating a few revisions of that performance target on their own. Every time they revise the design to keep it competitive though, firmware is screaming at them about stability, and software is screaming at them about timelines, and leadership is screaming about costs. But somehow despite all of that, they manage a relatively timely release and it's competitive in the low end after a few months of driver improvements. Unfortunately there's another problem. These things are fabbed at TSMC, not Intel. Intel doesn't have that many wafers at TSMC compared to Nvidia/AMD and meaningfully increasing that is expensive. So instead they make the rational decision to release the higher-margin stuff first and let the drivers bake some more. Everything else can get price-adjusted (and minimally design-adjusted) before it releases to make it competitive, which is why the article doesn't have actual pricing.
- halotrope 3y agoI have an a770 as my daily driver and it’s a great card. Especially at the prices. 16gb of vram, av1 encoder, can play most modern games with decent settings, good blender integration and the oneAPI libraries for compute are slowly maturing. If you don’t need CUDA or bleeding edge performance, it’s a great mid-level card at a price thats hard to beat.
- Mistletoe 3y agoI had never priced it and expected something reasonable and it is $426 on Amazon… I don’t mean to start a holy war but this is why people buy consoles. I feel like the entire PC video card universe is so disconnected from reality. A PS5 or Xbox Series X is $499 and is a fully functioning device.
- Dalewyn 3y agoAn A770 should be ~$370, and you can buy A750s for ~$250, new of course. $426 sounds like someone's trying to fleece you or there just isn't enough floating around to sell anymore as Intel gears up for the next lineup.
- Mistletoe 3y agohttps://www.newegg.com/amp/intel-21p01j00ba/p/N82E16814883001 https://www.newegg.com/amp/intel-21p01j00ba/p/N82E1681488300... The next google result was that one on Newegg. I saw it was out of stock and said I’ve seen all this before and gave up.
- brucethemoose2 3y agoIn the console ecosystem, you pay more for games, subscriptions, fees and such, depending on your habits. And you don't get a fully functioning work PC out of it... Which is stupid, as both consoles would be great PCs, especially the XSX with bigger RAM ICs. They are kind of like high power Mac M1s.
- erinnh 3y ago
- xbmcuser 3y agoFor a plex or jellyfin server intel graphic cards are supposedly great as you get multiple encoding decoding 4k streams and better compatibility with linux for cheap
- chx 3y agoSo > a TBP of 175W. The RTX 3060 was 170 Watt, the RX 7600 is 165 W. So it's on par efficiency wise as well, it would seem.
- georgeburdell 3y agoI don’t understand how Intel can afford to sell these so cheaply given they are fabbed at TSMC.
- mahkeiro 3y agoHave a look at Nvidia financial statement to get an idea why ;)
- adam_arthur 3y agoNVDA also fabs at TSMC and has 60% gross margins, so there's a lot of room to undercut on price while still being profitable. The real question is why doesn't TSMC charge more? How can a customer using the most cutting edge fab get 60% margins? (Similar for other customers). Clearly there's a lot of pricing power on the fab side that's not being asserted.
- Panzer04 3y agoSamsung Foundry exists, and Nvidia used them for the 30 series iirc. TSMC just doesn't have that much pricing power as a result. Their best processes are obviously good, but if they try to gouge too much customers probably just take the hit for a year. If they have to they can always sacrifice size/power for performance on an older, cheaper process.
- wmf 3y agoIntel is dumping overstocked inventory.
- snvzz 3y agoI'd still just buy the AMD gpu. Mature drivers, and better tested alongside AMD cpus. Also, I never liked Intel[0]. 0. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osSMJRyxG0k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osSMJRyxG0k
- DeathArrow 3y agoThe revolution here is not that it is as good as the competition, but that it might have a much better price, leading to a much better price/performance ratio. If Intel is patient to compete for lower grade GPUs for a few years without killing its GPU line, then we might see them competing for the top in the future. And the top is where the big money is. They'll also need a CUDA compatible API to stand a chance, but they have time. The only thing that saved Intel until now is that Nvidia can't legally produce x86 CPUs, although they tried. The more competition, the better.
- debaserab2 3y agoWhy can't nvidia legally produce x86 chips?
- Teever 3y agoBecause you need a license to do so and Intel and AMD are loathe to give a license to would-be competitors. I believe that the person you're replying to is referring to an attempt to produce x86 compatible processors that Nvidia undertook when they bought the license that Via owned. IIRC that didn't go so well for Nvidia because the license didn't include new parts of the instruction set like the 64 bit instructions that AMD made in the mid 2000s and AMD wouldn't license them.
- DeathArrow 3y agoI do believe they've tried to circumvent the IP by implementing a translation layer like in Transmeta Crusoe, but Intel still threatened them with lawsuits.
- papercrane 3y agoNvidia can't do a translation layer. Back around 2010 Intel and Nvidia were suing each other, the settlement agreement specifically said Nvidia wouldn't produce anything like that
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- MrBuddyCasino 3y agoIn 2023, 8GB of RAM is simply insufficient for anything above entry-level. Already Ratchet & Clank in FHD has a >50% performance advantage when you compare the 16GiB 4060TI version against the 8GB version, when comparing avg. fps P1 it rises to +70%. This is the biggest outlier, but many other games suffer badly with just 8GB [0]. It will only get worse going forward, so don’t buy a 8GB card if don’t have to, it will age badly. [0] https://www.pcgameshardware.de/Geforce-RTX-4060-Ti-16GB-Grafikkarte-279647/Specials/Test-Review-Preis-Release-8GB-vs-16GB-Specs-Benchmark-1425140/galerie/3770818/ https://www.pcgameshardware.de/Geforce-RTX-4060-Ti-16GB-Graf...
- nottorp 3y agoCan't read that because I don't understand the popup that covers the article and I'm not clicking on something I can't read :) However, isn't this specific game you're mentioned just a case of a crap port from consoles? Personally I wouldn't try any traditional console franchise on a PC. They're just not designed for it, even if you plug in a controller.
- MrBuddyCasino 3y agoThis is just the usual cookie banner. This is a direct URL to the image: https://www.pcgameshardware.de/Geforce-RTX-4060-Ti-16GB-Grafikkarte-279647/Specials/Test-Review-Preis-Release-8GB-vs-16GB-Specs-Benchmark-1425140/galerie/3770818/?fullsize https://www.pcgameshardware.de/Geforce-RTX-4060-Ti-16GB-Graf... Point being that a lot of current-gen AAA games already benefit from more RAM, and this is not going to get better. Consider that frame generation and raytracing also consume lots of VRAM, and FG will be essential to keep 4060Ti level silicon competitive in the future. Here is a Youtuber making the same case, that no, its not just that one badly optimized game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-j1vdMV1Cc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-j1vdMV1Cc Does this affect all games? No. But this won't help you if it affects a game you'd like to play, now or in the future.
- nottorp 3y ago> This is just the usual cookie banner. I tried passing the link through google translate and it skipped the banners unfortunately. I have a feeling it wanted me to make an account though. I uninstalled Chrome on this laptop so I can't use the in-browser translate option. > Point being that a lot of current-gen AAA games already benefit from more RAM, and this is not going to get better. Point taken. Wasn't aware of that because I get the few AAA games I'm interested in on console anyway. Most are series that started on consoles so the company is likely to be more experienced on that platform. Edit: and to be a bit snarky, I could argue that ports from console that don't take into account the amount of VRAM on common PC video cards are a case of crap console port.
- ShadowBanThis01 3y agoI thought Intel was giving up on GPUs already...
- andrewstuart 3y agoThere’s no facts here just rumors.
- BaculumMeumEst 3y agoAn 8GB card is not "coming out swinging". My 1070 I got on the cheap in 2016 has 8GB. Give me some fucking VRAM already.
- ceeam 3y agoWhy can't we have DIMM slots on video cards?
- xcv123 3y agoBecause that reduces bandwidth and occupies more space
- voidbert 3y agoModern VRAM (GDDDR) runs at very high frequencies and very low latency. This makes the wiring between the RAM chips and GPU very tricky (they need to be short and the same length), so slots aren't an option. There were actually VRAM slots in some 90s GPUs.
- Const-me 3y agoVRAM runs at high frequencies, delivers insane throughput, but the latency is not great. GPUs don’t need low memory latency. They have very high degree of parallelism. GPU cores switch to other threads instead of waiting for data from memory. Here’s an interesting system with AMD Zen2 CPU and GDDR6 memory, salvaged from XBox: https://www.tomshardware.com/news/4800s-xbox-chip-shows-us-why-cpus-do-not-come-with-gddr6 https://www.tomshardware.com/news/4800s-xbox-chip-shows-us-w... As you see, high latency of GDDR6 memory ruins the performance of CPU-running code.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- Const-me 3y agoNot enough bandwidth. My current GPU has 484 GB/second memory bandwidth. It would require 7 channels of DDR5-8400 memory (the fastest one currently defined by these specs), and GPUs aren’t yet large enough to fit 7 slots of SO-DIMM.
- vimarsh6739 3y agoHow does oneAPI/SYCL compare to CUDA? We certainly need an alternative to OpenCL, but every day, I can't help but notice the widening gulf between CUDA and any other GPGPU API out there.
- pjmlp 3y agoWorse, only does C++, while CUDA is polyglot, and tooling isn't at the level as something like NInsights.
- nottorp 3y agoMmm these Intel cards are a nice unknown. Who should one get a video card from these days if the main goal is good Steam/Proton performance on Linux? Atm I have a PS5 and this Linux box with a Ryzen G series (and a Mac Mini but that's off topic). If i want to use it to play games through Proton what vendor should I get a video card from for the least hassle? Note least hassle not best fps. Although come to think of it, I haven't even attempted to try and see what I can get out of the integrated graphics... console backlog is pretty big so the Linux box is only used for work and doesn't even have a monitor connected :)
- capableweb 3y agoI'd wager you'd do best with a AMD card, as Steam ships their own hardware with Linux + AMD CPU/GPU, so I'm guessing that's the same vendor that has the best support on with their desktop software as well.
- Synaesthesia 3y agoAMD is the best supported under Linux
- littlestymaar 3y agoAnd yet I've had 4 years of so many random crashes with my 5700XT that I'm not sure I'd buy AMD again on the GC side…
- xcv123 3y agoSounds like a hardware defect. 2 years of zero crashes with my 6600XT.
- xcv123 3y ago+1 for AMD on Linux "Nvidia - fuck you!" - Linus Torvalds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_36yNWw_07g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_36yNWw_07g
- joshspankit 3y agoI still think Intel has a real opportunity to be the go-to second card for encoding/streaming and therefore get in to a lot of households. If they could throw some forwards compatibility in (maybe an FPGA?) so that users could do future real-time encoding of h266 or av3? That would be an easy sell.
- Dalewyn 3y agoIt's worth keeping in mind that the absolute market leader in consumer/household graphics isn't Nvidia, let alone AMD: It's Intel. Every single personal computer with an Intel CPU since 2010 has an Intel GPU inside.
- xcv123 3y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Quick_Sync_Video https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Quick_Sync_Video "Intel Quick Sync Video is Intel's brand for its dedicated video encoding and decoding hardware core. Quick Sync was introduced with the Sandy Bridge CPU microarchitecture on 9 January 2011 and has been found on the die of Intel CPUs ever since."
- bjoli 3y agoI got the a750 for the $200 price (which means about $235 in Sweden). The most amazing part was how well it works in Linux and how much speed you get for the money. The amd 7600 is more efficient, but definitely not as much juice for the money.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- dTP90pN 3y agoProspective owners which use Linux should know, that they will have to decide which driver to run: i915 with hardware-acceleration support (more generally, HuC), or Xe with VM_BIND support (highly relevant for gaming): https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/drm/xe/kernel/-/issues/234 https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/drm/xe/kernel/-/issues/234
- metalforever 3y agoHow open source is it ? Does it have closed-source firmware blobs?
- juunpp 3y agoAs far as I can tell, at least the Linux kmd is open source^: https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/docs/graphics-for-linux/developer-reference/1-0/source-code.html https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/docs/graphics-for-li... https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Intel_graphics https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Intel_graphics ^ The repo ships with dual licenses and exceptions, have not read the details.
- stainablesteel 3y agoi find it hilarious how companies try to make their chips aesthetically pleasing, as if i stare at the chip and not the monitor. its already a highly demanded product, you don't need this kind of marketing to boost sales.
- steve76 3y ago[dead]
- snapplebobapple 3y agoThey need to get the pro a60 out asap. I am so tired of getting dicked around on quadros for work. I need lots of 4k screen outputs but modest gpu resources and that card just doesnt exist at nvidia or amd anymore since the p600/t600 cards were discontinued and not replaced with newer bht still inexpensive versions.
- CppPro 3y agoIf only it supported Windows XP!