10 ms·

Apple stole $100s from me, Customer Service says there's nothing they can do

345 points by lapcat 3y ago

CoastalCoder 3y ago
Could you sue Apple in small-claims court? Nothing says "please pay attention to me" like having a sheriff's deputy put a padlock on a nearby Apple store.
ksec 3y ago
The CS Rep told him to create a new Apple ID. I am wondering what would happen to my iCloud with previous ID?
- srvmshr 3y ago
  I have never encountered this personally, but helped a few. There could be variations of what to expect, in response to your question. YMMV: * If using the Web UI, it will be locked & probably will remain in some catatonic state, until Apple restores or purges its contents. The ID will not be reissued to anyone else, so it is a safe assumption no one will get any email, notes or photos that belonged to you. Apple support page will still be available in many cases (and probably the only thing) when you try logging-in * On your device, syncing will stop. Local content will remain. Shared albums might disappear or seem broken i.e thumbnails will be visible but suspended account will not be able to fetch data. App purchases will stay but updates will probably be infeasible. iCloud dependent document access will definitely be broken.
- throwaway290 3y ago
  It keeps working as usual. The poster said the account is specifically locked only in iTunes/App Store. That's why the complaint is about losing money and not everything I guess.
gurchik 3y ago
I don't think many people understand that when you "buy" a movie or book on Amazon lets say, you're just buying a license to that product and it can be taken away at any time. I sometimes worry what will happen to my library on Steam if I ever get falsely banned. I have a lot more than $100 of content there.
- bern4444 3y ago
  When google shut down stadia they refunded everyones purchase.
- pard68 3y ago
  This is why I have switched to services like Bandcamp, Gog, etc. At least I can take the content with me.
- qwytw 3y ago
  That and maybe an iPhone and an iPad or two (do Macs also get bricked if you can't login using the connected account nowadays?) so $1000s at least.
- Teever 3y ago
  > I don't think many people understand... ...you're just buying a license to that product and it can be taken away at any time. And if that was a one-off sort of thing than I'd say "caveat emptor" but it's not a one-off, it's something we hear about all the time which makes me say "Holy shit sounds like fraud to me." If so many people are walking away from a transaction with a complete misconception about what it is that they transacted I question whether or not we can call what went on as a 'meeting of the minds.'
- ck45 3y ago
  It kinda already happened. Many older Mac games on steam are 32bit only. You can’t just run them on newer macs.
  - nso 3y ago
    What is the difference between that and having bought a physical copy that only supports 32 bit? Noone has taken away your game library. You have bought a system that doesn't support your old games.
    - Lammy 3y ago
      You can resell or gift the physical copy.
akmarinov 3y ago
Say goodbye to all your “Sign in with Apple” accounts
- layer8 3y ago
  That’s why one should never use “sign-in with XY”.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
tuwtuwtuwtuw 3y ago
Apple telling someone that their account has been disabled due to fraudulent patterns and then asking them to create a new Apple ID is another level of incompetence from that organization.
- gregoriol 3y ago
  I don't see a better way to get flagged again as fraudulent pattern
- wmf 3y ago
  What specifically is wrong here? What should Apple have done instead?
  - dralley 3y ago
    Creating new Apple IDs with the same contact info seems like it would be "potentially fraudulent behavior"
  - tuwtuwtuwtuw 3y ago
    Uhhh... there are 2 options: * There is some kind of fraud performed by the guy. Telling the guy/fraudster to create a new Apple ID account makes no sense. Are you going to tell the bank robber to try again using another method when the first attempt fail? * There is no fraud involved. Then the flag on the account should be removed.
    - wmf 3y ago
      Scammers already know to create new accounts so telling them that isn't giving up anything.
      - tuwtuwtuwtuw 3y ago
        Right, so it makes perfect sense that Apple support recommends a scammer workarounds for apple fraud detection. Makes sense.
  - 3y ago
baybal2 3y ago
Small claims court, I once got n-times the money frozen in my paypal account. It works, because big cos almost universally settle. Attorneys cost many times more than your acc. And another moment, small claims court judges are rarely some ideological cranks.
- Analemma_ 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - baybal2 3y ago
    To make the judge even read that contract, they need to send an attorney. And if the SCC judge will say arbitrate, then, why not for something so trivial, and clear cut?
  - dharmab 3y ago
    Binding arbitration often does rule in favor of the users. Famously, Uber was buried with arbitration cases that went in favor of drivers.
  - qwytw 3y ago
    I could only find this in the EULA: "this Agreement and the relationship between you and Apple shall be governed by the laws of the State of California, excluding its conflicts of law provisions. You and Apple agree to submit to the personal and exclusive jurisdiction of the courts located within the county of Santa Clara, California, to resolve any dispute or claim arising from this Agreement" Steam for instance seems to impose arbitration but also has this: "Disputes that can be resolved in small claims court or relate to the infringement of our intellectual property do not have to be arbitrated. You can opt out of arbitration within 30 days of accepting this EULA. (d) Exceptions. As limited exceptions to Section 22(b) above, the following Disputes can be resolved in court and need not be resolved through arbitration: (i) any Dispute that can be resolved in small claims court (if it qualifies); and (ii) any Dispute involving the infringement or misappropriation of our intellectual property rights."
    - 3y ago
iso1631 3y ago
Big tech companies have made trillions on positioning themselves as gatekeepers to society. It's about time governments actually legislated for this. If they want to ban you, then at the very minimum they need to prove it, to provide the evidence, evidence you can challenge. They need to prove their response is proportionate, and they need to be open to an independent person judging their response.
- wolpoli 3y ago
  There are consumer protection laws that apply to banks and telecoms already. You are right it might be time to have similar laws for these digital gatekeepers.
radious 3y ago
One of the commenters on the reddit post suggests that the financial information – credit cards, I assume – were stolen and used for purchases on another Apple account. This is really scary as my credit cards #s were already stole a few times and it was never an issue larger than 15 minutes on phone with my bank rep. However, if this could lead to me losing my iCloud account (or Google, Amazon, etc.), this is a much bigger deal.
- brewdad 3y ago
  If this is really the reason for losing the account, I can't understand why Apple wouldn't just blacklist the credit card and leave the account owner to deal with their bank. Closing their account seems excessive. Especially after contacting them. I doubt too many CC thieves are calling up Apple to explain themselves.
xyst 3y ago
I stopped using Apple/Amazon/Microsoft stores for this exact reason. Have switched to personal media server with access via WireGuard vpn
- scarface_74 3y ago
  And when your house burns down or is broken into?
  - sigio 3y ago
    Backups to some (non google/apple) cloud provider or something like rsync.net / hetzner storage box / backblaze b2 / online.net storage / etc etc. Or trade off-site backups with a friend/family that also self-hosts all their own stuff. It's all encrypted anyway, so no problem ;)
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - layer8 3y ago
    Restore from backup, of course.
  - xyst 3y ago
    if broken into, data encrypted at rest/on disk so idgaf there if house burns down, I restore from an offsite backup that syncs on a nightly basis no worries. fuck "the cloud"
manuelabeledo 3y ago
Summary judgments are way too common in the era of digital services. This is the kind of anti-consumer tactics I expect the EU to take a deeper look into. As a side note, for all the good PR Apple gets for their customer service, my experience with their digital services and payments support has been subpar. The Apple Card support is particularly atrocious, with a two-level support hierarchy where Apple cannot do anything but answer basic questions, and pretty much any serious request has to be handed to Goldman-Sachs advisors. Payments are a bit better, but half of the time I had any issues, I ended up sending an email to tcook@apple.com for the lack of responses.
- hinkley 3y ago
  Someone needs to legislate an autosuspension algorithm. Maximum number of consecutive hours an account can be suspended, max number of hours per unit of time (week, fortnight, month). Beyond that a human should be required to adjudicate the claims of the automated system. What we've done is instead of reducing the staff requirements by 10x or 25x we've reduced it by 500x, which is not okay. We can't afford purely manual fraud detection, but with the stakes this high humans should have the final say. But then that's always been a thing with ergonomic business software versus poorly designed business software - whether a human is allowed to override the system or not.
  - derefr 3y ago
    > We can't afford purely manual fraud detection, but with the stakes this high humans should have the final say. The human would make the same final judgement that the heuristic did, because the human doesn't have access to any more information than the heuristic does. (If they did, the heuristic's programmers would tap into that info to improve the heuristic as well.) As you say, the only real solution is to make un-suspension — upon presentation of additional evidence of account authenticity — easy. (Perhaps even automated.)
tolmasky 3y ago
Forget the movies you lose, if your AppleID is disabled, you also lose: 1. All your emails if you use iCloud for your email, and thus potentially locking you out of any other sites that use email as a 2-factor-auth. 2. All your backups on iCloud. 3. All your data on iCloud. 4. Every single login you have where you used sign-in-with-Apple. 5. Every app on your phone that you have a paid subscription for. 6. The fallback login mechanism on any of your Macs where you used iCloud as the login fallback. The list goes on. They ask you to tie your life to iCloud. They tell you to make backups on iCloud. According to the reddit thread, this can happen if there was a fraudulent charge made with a credit card associated with the account... Not even done on the account. So then all of your data disappears?
- mrweasel 3y ago
  Interesting and terrifying observation. Who exactly would one go about making backups of ones iCloud data. The internet is of no help, it's all about backing up TO iCloud.
  - ezfe 3y ago
    While true, as observed elsewhere there's no reason to believe Apple restricts these things if you get banned for fraudulent transactions. The linked post doesn't make that allegation.
  - HWR_14 3y ago
    Apple has instructions [0]. Looks like there is a download link accessible via the web interface on icloud.com. But you can also set an auto-syncing folder on OSX/Windows and copy them from there using standard OS commands. [0] https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204055 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204055
    - mrweasel 3y ago
      Thanks, annoyingly it seems like there's no automated solution for photos.
arp242 3y ago
> I ask to talk to a manager. Apple support manager calls me and confirms everything that the rep said. She keeps on saying that she "understands my frustration". Gee thanks. She says that it's frustrating for her too as this is something that happens frequently. That's when I start laughing. I ask her "This happens frequently and you haven't come up with a solution yet!?!?" She just keeps on apologizing and tells me that maybe I can post on the customer support forum and maybe if enough people do so, a change will be made. From this account the manager sounds like a nice person who is essentially powerless to do anything. Seems like an incredibly frustrating position to be in. My comment from a few days ago fits pretty well here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36933489 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36933489 Whenever people say that "AI will replace all the jobs": remember these stories.
- stepupmakeup 3y ago
  That's basically the support Google provides for consumer service subscribers. "24/7 support" isn't really useful when all they can do is refer you to their help portal and come up with titles when you ask to talk to a supervisor, manager, etc, in addition to swapping around the communication medium, so from live chat with 2 minute response times to emailing with two day response times, and eventually flat out ghosting (no "your ticket has been resolved") because the support "manager" understands that the conversation is going nowhere.
- Waterluvian 3y ago
  My sense isn’t that they don’t have a solution, it’s that the people you talk to, including “managers” are just fancy drones who have not been granted any nontrivial decisionmaking power by the Company. They just follow decision trees and act as a car bumper for small collisions.
- llm_nerd 3y ago
  It's pretty common that the front line don't and can't know the underlying details, especially in situations that might have overlaps with law enforcement / crime. Apple gift cards are a massive vehicle for fraud, both in extracting value from stolen credit cards, and in scams ("the IRS has frozen your SS number...send iTunes cards or get arrested!"). There are places that sell Apple cards 80%+ off face value, the use of which is a very good way to get your account locked. Stolen/scammed Apple cards should have a market value of nothing. I know nothing about this particular case or whether such gift cards played a part. And ultimately getting completely locked out of a digital identity without recourse is ridiculous and demands legislative remedy. However I'm pretty cynical about these sorts of stories at this point. Perhaps it's years of playing in first person shooter games where it's normal to see cheaters/hackers wail about their innocence when banned, to eventually changing their story and just going radio silent when they're proven cheats. Apple has absolutely no benefit to arbitrarily banning random people for fun. Not that it couldn't happen, and errors absolutely happen, however it usually isn't random.
black_puppydog 3y ago
I just "love" how the apple fans go right to the victim blaming. From the thread: > I'm not sure if OP doesn't use the right communication. How much clearer could it be? They clearly understood the situation, and they're clearly unwilling (not unable!) to do anything about it. "They" being apple the corporation, not any individual who may well be unable to do what's right with the tools/permissions they're given. That is simply because the "situation" is only a "problem" for the customer. For apple, it's just that, a situation. Not bad enough to warrant a solution.
- FireBeyond 3y ago
  My favorite was "the apple rep told you more than they were meant to. they're not allowed to tell you things, but if they were, you'd totally understand why they did it and even thank them". To which someone at least calls out the laughability of this: "Uh, I'm not thanking any company that just deletes my account and loses me data, apps and money, with no recourse".
ryandrake 3y ago
It has now been [0] days since the last [cloud service cancels my account and won't tell me why] article. We should all be working to minimize/eliminate our dependence on cloud service accounts that can simply disappear due to bad automation or at the whim of the service provider. How many articles like this need to be posted before we are all convinced?
- scarface_74 3y ago
  As opposed to keeping all of my data at home where it will be lost if stolen or there is a fire? And individuals doing their own automation couldn’t make a mistake? That being said, the only thing I really care about are my photos and videos and they are synced to - iCloud - Google Photos - Microsoft OneDrive - Amazon Photos (photos only not videos)
- dahwolf 3y ago
  An unlimited amount because your advise does not scale. Society has rapidly digitized. We now have billions of people using big tech account systems to access things. And the things are no longer toys, they represent things of real value. We need legislation. It should be illegal to randomly deny service, to not disclose a reason, to not have a sane appeal process.
gumby 3y ago
If the reddit poster is in the US this is perfect for a small claims court claim. No lawyer, just file and show up and most likely win even if Apple sends someone to contest it. Then if they don't pay judgement you can literally go to the Apple store with a sheriff and take things off the shelf up to the value of your claim. Or take one of the display tables. THAT would get Apple's attention. One of my favorite events from the (horrible) Great Financial Crisis was a case of this: the winner of a claim against one of the big banks (I think it was a bogus foreclosure, or some fees or something) couldn't get the bank to cough up, so they walked into a branch with the sheriff and just started removing furniture. Got a lot of attention in the press and then in the Florida Legislature.
- kmeisthax 3y ago
  Don't take anything with a computer chip in it, Apple can iCloud lock it. As for if they would blatantly reject the sovereignty of their host country by locking legally stolen property, who knows. We've been sleepwalking into anarcho-capitalism for decades.
  - m463 3y ago
    > Don't take anything with a computer chip in it, Apple can iCloud lock it. if they did that, could you take them to small claims court?
    - gumby 3y ago
      I don’t see why not — it’d be something you lawfully owned.
- flutas 3y ago
  > One of my favorite events from the (horrible) Great Financial Crisis was a case of this: the winner of a claim against one of the big banks (I think it was a bogus foreclosure, or some fees or something) couldn't get the bank to cough up, so they walked into a branch with the sheriff and just started removing furniture. Yup, he walked out with a check that same day too. https://abcnews.go.com/Business/bank-america-florida-foreclosed-angry-homeowner-bofa/story?id=13775638 https://abcnews.go.com/Business/bank-america-florida-foreclo... Highlights: > The Florida incident arose when the bank foreclosed on Warren and Maureen Nyerges of Golden Gate Estates in Naples. This surprised the Nyerges, since they had no mortgage--not with BofA or with anybody else. They had paid cash for their home in 2009. > Finally he hired an attorney. Two months later, the foreclosure had been dismissed. > Nyerges then sought to recover his attorney's fees, and got a judgment against the bank. Five more months passed: more phone calls, more letters; no payment. Nyerges went back to court and got a writ of execution, which gave him permission to seize bank assets in payment for his judgment. > On June 3, Nyerges, two sheriff's deputies and a moving truck showed up at the local BofA branch. The deputies informed the manager that he could either pay the Nyerges' legal fees— $2,500—or the movers would start taking away the bank's furniture and cash. The manager, after conferring with his superiors, gave the deputies a check. > Bank of America later apologized to the Nyerges in writing--but managed to misspell their name.
gumby 3y ago
My developer account is not connected in any way with my personal apple ID. The dev appleid is so old it is not an email address -- in fact it has a space in it. That occasionally breaks things but I figure that might help in a case like that too :-)
PlunderBunny 3y ago
Assuming the case where your credit card (that is linked to your iCloud account) is stolen (I.e. just the credit card details) and then used fraudulently by someone else, and that this causes Apple to lock your account, would it be better to use an entirely separate card for iCloud and for iCloud only?
- cesarb 3y ago
  > (I.e. just the credit card details) and then used fraudulently by someone else [...] would it be better to use an entirely separate card for iCloud and for iCloud only? I've already once had a card used fraudulently as a credit card, but it had never been used for anything other than being initially unlocked at the bank's ATM (it was the card for the secondary owner of that bank account), and its credit card function hadn't even been enabled (which meant that the attempted misuse was immediately rejected). So I wouldn't expect that using a card for iCloud and iCloud only would be enough to prevent it from being used fraudulently somehow.
indigodaddy 3y ago
For my non-MoviesAnywhere direct movie purchases and code redeems, I’m starting to use Vudu a lot more than iTunes, as the having your account disabled or suspended for some vague reason is pretty much not a thing with Vudu. All Vudu does is movies and TV, nothing else, and they want to keep you as that customer.
worik 3y ago
Apple took $USD100 from me for a "developer license" I never received I fought back but realized they had all the power. The power to ruin me and my employer's business. FTC
pier25 3y ago
My father got hacked and lost access to his Apple account. The hacker proceeded to delete the account and tried to take control of his devices. At no moment Apple sent an email to my father to confirm anything. Once the account was deleted, there was nothing Apple could or would do. Everything was lost. Taking control of the devices back was quite the odyssey as Apple required invoices and whatnot.
- oidar 3y ago
  Can you tell me more about this?
  - pier25 3y ago
    I wrote this Twitter thread when it happened. https://twitter.com/pierbover/status/1574875206220488705 https://twitter.com/pierbover/status/1574875206220488705 Let me know if you want more details
- turquoisevar 3y ago
  Are you sure it went the way you described here? You can’t take control of devices after deleting the account, and notifications are send out per email for every little thing from logging in from a new device to changing trusted devices and phone numbers to changing the address on file.
  - pier25 3y ago
    I was as surprised as you are but AFAIK he didn't receive any email from Apple and he certainly didn't agree to having his account deleted. I guess one possibility is the hacker might have accessed my father's email but it seems improbable. AFAIK my father didn't store passwords on the keychain and didn't sync it with iCloud.
themagician 3y ago
I had this happen with both Facebook and Google. With Facebook it took 6 months to get fixed. Then it happened again in 2020 and I was only recently able to get the flag removed a few months ago. With Google I took it much more serious. Took about 6 days of non stop calls and emails. Probably put in 4-6 hours a day just trying over and over again. The trick is to just keep trying. Again and again. Don’t waste time talking to people who can’t help. You start to get a feel for it. Eventually you can find your way to “Risk Management“ and a human will review your account. Same response from both Facebook (multiple times) and Google, which is some derivation of, “Sorry. Our algorithm was overly zealous and accidentally flagged your account. The flag has been removed and your access restored.” Of course no one uses a real name or last name and everyone uses an ephemeral email address so it’s impossible to ever reach back out.
pdonis 3y ago
This is why I never have my only copy of anything on any online/"cloud" service.
hackan 3y ago
Stop throwing moneyz to them, they will never change...
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
pluc 3y ago
You don't get to 394 billion in revenue by being nice
retrocryptid 3y ago
hunh. turns out the cloud is someone else's computer. who knew?
chinabot 3y ago
I wish I could make a hackernews post that went viral everytime I got screwed over by a company
talkingtab 3y ago
If your state allows small claims court, then file an action. This is typically pretty easy. Small claims court is your friend. Apple can tell you all day long there is nothing to do, but it will cost them a lawyer to act respond to your small claims filing. EVERYONE should file a small claims action whenever you suffer a loss and someone says "there is nothing we can do." And please, post what happens.
notpushkin 3y ago
Reminder that it is completely ethical to torrent a movie you already bought. (Not saying it's legal, but IMO it should be.)
OptionX 3y ago
Well, at least there's one less person willing to sell their entire digital soul to a singular big corp. Shame OP had to learn it like this. This of course if s/he don't just make another AppleID, because fool me once and all that.
pasc1878 3y ago
Well done HN reddit is not responding.
Espionage724 3y ago
Ok I get what the title's purpose is, but that implied something totally different than what I actually read. Yeah you lose access to the content you technically rent from Apple if your account gets disabled. Same with other major providers. Go to your financial department and refund it, but even they would be doing you a favor since you've agreed to the provider's terms. Local files > cloud providers
djbusby 3y ago
Had an account booted from Amazon Affiliates. Vague reasons given. Appealed, denied, stated it final. But they have arbitration clause, so maybe that's an option? Arbitration costs $2000 USD. These kinds of situations need something of regulation. Not heavy, just let us get a hold of a human to explain and review these cases.
turquoisevar 3y ago
These fraud prevention actions are nothing new sadly. Apple does it, Google does it, your bank does it and you’ll never receive any details because they all heavily lean on security through obscurity, out of fear that any information might be helpful to game and circumvent detection. In the case of online services it’s also partially because they don’t know if they’re dealing with the scammer or the legitimate account holder and they don’t care to setup a process to do identity verification. The only difference is that with a bank you usually at least get your money (although Revolut has shown to not even do that in certain cases), with services you can pound sand because nothing is owned and it’s all based on licenses that can be revoked at any time for no reason. That’s why the small claims revenge fantasy is so silly, nothing will come of it. Yeah sure ToS don’t trump law, but the law has shown time and time again that it’s entirely ok with revoking licenses for pretty much any reason conceivable, because licenses aren’t held in the same regard as property rights. So far, every example I’ve seen with Apple has been a case in which the person redeemed thousands of dollars of gift cards, triggering the fraud algorithm in the process. A few of them managed to get their account reinstated by emailing the executive team. This is the first case I’ve seen in which the person insists that this isn’t the case and that they’ve done nothing to trigger the fraud algorithm. As an outsider I don’t have the details either way, but I’d be more concerned about the loss of data than the monetary value of purchases, if only because those can be charged back without worrying about the consequences (which normally be the closure of the Apple ID). I’d also reach out to the executive team, mainly because I have good experiences with them myself. Whatever the case, this is a risk that isn’t going to go away soon when dealing with companies.

345 points by lapcat 3y ago

Could you sue Apple in small-claims court? Nothing says "please pay attention to me" like having a sheriff's deputy put a padlock on a nearby Apple store.

ksec 3y ago

The CS Rep told him to create a new Apple ID. I am wondering what would happen to my iCloud with previous ID?

srvmshr 3y ago
I have never encountered this personally, but helped a few. There could be variations of what to expect, in response to your question. YMMV: * If using the Web UI, it will be locked & probably will remain in some catatonic state, until Apple restores or purges its contents. The ID will not be reissued to anyone else, so it is a safe assumption no one will get any email, notes or photos that belonged to you. Apple support page will still be available in many cases (and probably the only thing) when you try logging-in * On your device, syncing will stop. Local content will remain. Shared albums might disappear or seem broken i.e thumbnails will be visible but suspended account will not be able to fetch data. App purchases will stay but updates will probably be infeasible. iCloud dependent document access will definitely be broken.
throwaway290 3y ago
It keeps working as usual. The poster said the account is specifically locked only in iTunes/App Store. That's why the complaint is about losing money and not everything I guess.

gurchik 3y ago

I don't think many people understand that when you "buy" a movie or book on Amazon lets say, you're just buying a license to that product and it can be taken away at any time. I sometimes worry what will happen to my library on Steam if I ever get falsely banned. I have a lot more than $100 of content there.

bern4444 3y ago
When google shut down stadia they refunded everyones purchase.
pard68 3y ago
This is why I have switched to services like Bandcamp, Gog, etc. At least I can take the content with me.
qwytw 3y ago
That and maybe an iPhone and an iPad or two (do Macs also get bricked if you can't login using the connected account nowadays?) so $1000s at least.
Teever 3y ago
> I don't think many people understand... ...you're just buying a license to that product and it can be taken away at any time. And if that was a one-off sort of thing than I'd say "caveat emptor" but it's not a one-off, it's something we hear about all the time which makes me say "Holy shit sounds like fraud to me." If so many people are walking away from a transaction with a complete misconception about what it is that they transacted I question whether or not we can call what went on as a 'meeting of the minds.'
ck45 3y ago
It kinda already happened. Many older Mac games on steam are 32bit only. You can’t just run them on newer macs.
- nso 3y ago
  What is the difference between that and having bought a physical copy that only supports 32 bit? Noone has taken away your game library. You have bought a system that doesn't support your old games.
  - Lammy 3y ago
    You can resell or gift the physical copy.

akmarinov 3y ago

Say goodbye to all your “Sign in with Apple” accounts

layer8 3y ago
That’s why one should never use “sign-in with XY”.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

tuwtuwtuwtuw 3y ago

Apple telling someone that their account has been disabled due to fraudulent patterns and then asking them to create a new Apple ID is another level of incompetence from that organization.

gregoriol 3y ago
I don't see a better way to get flagged again as fraudulent pattern
wmf 3y ago
What specifically is wrong here? What should Apple have done instead?
- dralley 3y ago
  Creating new Apple IDs with the same contact info seems like it would be "potentially fraudulent behavior"
- tuwtuwtuwtuw 3y ago
  Uhhh... there are 2 options: * There is some kind of fraud performed by the guy. Telling the guy/fraudster to create a new Apple ID account makes no sense. Are you going to tell the bank robber to try again using another method when the first attempt fail? * There is no fraud involved. Then the flag on the account should be removed.
  - wmf 3y ago
    Scammers already know to create new accounts so telling them that isn't giving up anything.
    - tuwtuwtuwtuw 3y ago
      Right, so it makes perfect sense that Apple support recommends a scammer workarounds for apple fraud detection. Makes sense.
- 3y ago

baybal2 3y ago

Small claims court, I once got n-times the money frozen in my paypal account. It works, because big cos almost universally settle. Attorneys cost many times more than your acc. And another moment, small claims court judges are rarely some ideological cranks.

Analemma_ 3y ago
[flagged]
- baybal2 3y ago
  To make the judge even read that contract, they need to send an attorney. And if the SCC judge will say arbitrate, then, why not for something so trivial, and clear cut?
- dharmab 3y ago
  Binding arbitration often does rule in favor of the users. Famously, Uber was buried with arbitration cases that went in favor of drivers.
- qwytw 3y ago
  I could only find this in the EULA: "this Agreement and the relationship between you and Apple shall be governed by the laws of the State of California, excluding its conflicts of law provisions. You and Apple agree to submit to the personal and exclusive jurisdiction of the courts located within the county of Santa Clara, California, to resolve any dispute or claim arising from this Agreement" Steam for instance seems to impose arbitration but also has this: "Disputes that can be resolved in small claims court or relate to the infringement of our intellectual property do not have to be arbitrated. You can opt out of arbitration within 30 days of accepting this EULA. (d) Exceptions. As limited exceptions to Section 22(b) above, the following Disputes can be resolved in court and need not be resolved through arbitration: (i) any Dispute that can be resolved in small claims court (if it qualifies); and (ii) any Dispute involving the infringement or misappropriation of our intellectual property rights."
  - 3y ago

iso1631 3y ago

Big tech companies have made trillions on positioning themselves as gatekeepers to society. It's about time governments actually legislated for this. If they want to ban you, then at the very minimum they need to prove it, to provide the evidence, evidence you can challenge. They need to prove their response is proportionate, and they need to be open to an independent person judging their response.

wolpoli 3y ago
There are consumer protection laws that apply to banks and telecoms already. You are right it might be time to have similar laws for these digital gatekeepers.

radious 3y ago

One of the commenters on the reddit post suggests that the financial information – credit cards, I assume – were stolen and used for purchases on another Apple account. This is really scary as my credit cards #s were already stole a few times and it was never an issue larger than 15 minutes on phone with my bank rep. However, if this could lead to me losing my iCloud account (or Google, Amazon, etc.), this is a much bigger deal.

brewdad 3y ago
If this is really the reason for losing the account, I can't understand why Apple wouldn't just blacklist the credit card and leave the account owner to deal with their bank. Closing their account seems excessive. Especially after contacting them. I doubt too many CC thieves are calling up Apple to explain themselves.

xyst 3y ago

I stopped using Apple/Amazon/Microsoft stores for this exact reason. Have switched to personal media server with access via WireGuard vpn

scarface_74 3y ago
And when your house burns down or is broken into?
- sigio 3y ago
  Backups to some (non google/apple) cloud provider or something like rsync.net / hetzner storage box / backblaze b2 / online.net storage / etc etc. Or trade off-site backups with a friend/family that also self-hosts all their own stuff. It's all encrypted anyway, so no problem ;)
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- layer8 3y ago
  Restore from backup, of course.
- xyst 3y ago
  if broken into, data encrypted at rest/on disk so idgaf there if house burns down, I restore from an offsite backup that syncs on a nightly basis no worries. fuck "the cloud"

manuelabeledo 3y ago

Summary judgments are way too common in the era of digital services. This is the kind of anti-consumer tactics I expect the EU to take a deeper look into. As a side note, for all the good PR Apple gets for their customer service, my experience with their digital services and payments support has been subpar. The Apple Card support is particularly atrocious, with a two-level support hierarchy where Apple cannot do anything but answer basic questions, and pretty much any serious request has to be handed to Goldman-Sachs advisors. Payments are a bit better, but half of the time I had any issues, I ended up sending an email to tcook@apple.com for the lack of responses.

hinkley 3y ago
Someone needs to legislate an autosuspension algorithm. Maximum number of consecutive hours an account can be suspended, max number of hours per unit of time (week, fortnight, month). Beyond that a human should be required to adjudicate the claims of the automated system. What we've done is instead of reducing the staff requirements by 10x or 25x we've reduced it by 500x, which is not okay. We can't afford purely manual fraud detection, but with the stakes this high humans should have the final say. But then that's always been a thing with ergonomic business software versus poorly designed business software - whether a human is allowed to override the system or not.
- derefr 3y ago
  > We can't afford purely manual fraud detection, but with the stakes this high humans should have the final say. The human would make the same final judgement that the heuristic did, because the human doesn't have access to any more information than the heuristic does. (If they did, the heuristic's programmers would tap into that info to improve the heuristic as well.) As you say, the only real solution is to make un-suspension — upon presentation of additional evidence of account authenticity — easy. (Perhaps even automated.)

tolmasky 3y ago

Forget the movies you lose, if your AppleID is disabled, you also lose: 1. All your emails if you use iCloud for your email, and thus potentially locking you out of any other sites that use email as a 2-factor-auth. 2. All your backups on iCloud. 3. All your data on iCloud. 4. Every single login you have where you used sign-in-with-Apple. 5. Every app on your phone that you have a paid subscription for. 6. The fallback login mechanism on any of your Macs where you used iCloud as the login fallback. The list goes on. They ask you to tie your life to iCloud. They tell you to make backups on iCloud. According to the reddit thread, this can happen if there was a fraudulent charge made with a credit card associated with the account... Not even done on the account. So then all of your data disappears?

mrweasel 3y ago
Interesting and terrifying observation. Who exactly would one go about making backups of ones iCloud data. The internet is of no help, it's all about backing up TO iCloud.
- ezfe 3y ago
  While true, as observed elsewhere there's no reason to believe Apple restricts these things if you get banned for fraudulent transactions. The linked post doesn't make that allegation.
- HWR_14 3y ago
  Apple has instructions [0]. Looks like there is a download link accessible via the web interface on icloud.com. But you can also set an auto-syncing folder on OSX/Windows and copy them from there using standard OS commands. [0] https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204055 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204055
  - mrweasel 3y ago
    Thanks, annoyingly it seems like there's no automated solution for photos.

arp242 3y ago

> I ask to talk to a manager. Apple support manager calls me and confirms everything that the rep said. She keeps on saying that she "understands my frustration". Gee thanks. She says that it's frustrating for her too as this is something that happens frequently. That's when I start laughing. I ask her "This happens frequently and you haven't come up with a solution yet!?!?" She just keeps on apologizing and tells me that maybe I can post on the customer support forum and maybe if enough people do so, a change will be made. From this account the manager sounds like a nice person who is essentially powerless to do anything. Seems like an incredibly frustrating position to be in. My comment from a few days ago fits pretty well here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36933489 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36933489 Whenever people say that "AI will replace all the jobs": remember these stories.

stepupmakeup 3y ago
That's basically the support Google provides for consumer service subscribers. "24/7 support" isn't really useful when all they can do is refer you to their help portal and come up with titles when you ask to talk to a supervisor, manager, etc, in addition to swapping around the communication medium, so from live chat with 2 minute response times to emailing with two day response times, and eventually flat out ghosting (no "your ticket has been resolved") because the support "manager" understands that the conversation is going nowhere.
Waterluvian 3y ago
My sense isn’t that they don’t have a solution, it’s that the people you talk to, including “managers” are just fancy drones who have not been granted any nontrivial decisionmaking power by the Company. They just follow decision trees and act as a car bumper for small collisions.
llm_nerd 3y ago
It's pretty common that the front line don't and can't know the underlying details, especially in situations that might have overlaps with law enforcement / crime. Apple gift cards are a massive vehicle for fraud, both in extracting value from stolen credit cards, and in scams ("the IRS has frozen your SS number...send iTunes cards or get arrested!"). There are places that sell Apple cards 80%+ off face value, the use of which is a very good way to get your account locked. Stolen/scammed Apple cards should have a market value of nothing. I know nothing about this particular case or whether such gift cards played a part. And ultimately getting completely locked out of a digital identity without recourse is ridiculous and demands legislative remedy. However I'm pretty cynical about these sorts of stories at this point. Perhaps it's years of playing in first person shooter games where it's normal to see cheaters/hackers wail about their innocence when banned, to eventually changing their story and just going radio silent when they're proven cheats. Apple has absolutely no benefit to arbitrarily banning random people for fun. Not that it couldn't happen, and errors absolutely happen, however it usually isn't random.

black_puppydog 3y ago

I just "love" how the apple fans go right to the victim blaming. From the thread: > I'm not sure if OP doesn't use the right communication. How much clearer could it be? They clearly understood the situation, and they're clearly unwilling (not unable!) to do anything about it. "They" being apple the corporation, not any individual who may well be unable to do what's right with the tools/permissions they're given. That is simply because the "situation" is only a "problem" for the customer. For apple, it's just that, a situation. Not bad enough to warrant a solution.

FireBeyond 3y ago
My favorite was "the apple rep told you more than they were meant to. they're not allowed to tell you things, but if they were, you'd totally understand why they did it and even thank them". To which someone at least calls out the laughability of this: "Uh, I'm not thanking any company that just deletes my account and loses me data, apps and money, with no recourse".

ryandrake 3y ago

It has now been [0] days since the last [cloud service cancels my account and won't tell me why] article. We should all be working to minimize/eliminate our dependence on cloud service accounts that can simply disappear due to bad automation or at the whim of the service provider. How many articles like this need to be posted before we are all convinced?

scarface_74 3y ago
As opposed to keeping all of my data at home where it will be lost if stolen or there is a fire? And individuals doing their own automation couldn’t make a mistake? That being said, the only thing I really care about are my photos and videos and they are synced to - iCloud - Google Photos - Microsoft OneDrive - Amazon Photos (photos only not videos)
dahwolf 3y ago
An unlimited amount because your advise does not scale. Society has rapidly digitized. We now have billions of people using big tech account systems to access things. And the things are no longer toys, they represent things of real value. We need legislation. It should be illegal to randomly deny service, to not disclose a reason, to not have a sane appeal process.

gumby 3y ago

If the reddit poster is in the US this is perfect for a small claims court claim. No lawyer, just file and show up and most likely win even if Apple sends someone to contest it. Then if they don't pay judgement you can literally go to the Apple store with a sheriff and take things off the shelf up to the value of your claim. Or take one of the display tables. THAT would get Apple's attention. One of my favorite events from the (horrible) Great Financial Crisis was a case of this: the winner of a claim against one of the big banks (I think it was a bogus foreclosure, or some fees or something) couldn't get the bank to cough up, so they walked into a branch with the sheriff and just started removing furniture. Got a lot of attention in the press and then in the Florida Legislature.

kmeisthax 3y ago
Don't take anything with a computer chip in it, Apple can iCloud lock it. As for if they would blatantly reject the sovereignty of their host country by locking legally stolen property, who knows. We've been sleepwalking into anarcho-capitalism for decades.
- m463 3y ago
  > Don't take anything with a computer chip in it, Apple can iCloud lock it. if they did that, could you take them to small claims court?
  - gumby 3y ago
    I don’t see why not — it’d be something you lawfully owned.
flutas 3y ago
> One of my favorite events from the (horrible) Great Financial Crisis was a case of this: the winner of a claim against one of the big banks (I think it was a bogus foreclosure, or some fees or something) couldn't get the bank to cough up, so they walked into a branch with the sheriff and just started removing furniture. Yup, he walked out with a check that same day too. https://abcnews.go.com/Business/bank-america-florida-foreclosed-angry-homeowner-bofa/story?id=13775638 https://abcnews.go.com/Business/bank-america-florida-foreclo... Highlights: > The Florida incident arose when the bank foreclosed on Warren and Maureen Nyerges of Golden Gate Estates in Naples. This surprised the Nyerges, since they had no mortgage--not with BofA or with anybody else. They had paid cash for their home in 2009. > Finally he hired an attorney. Two months later, the foreclosure had been dismissed. > Nyerges then sought to recover his attorney's fees, and got a judgment against the bank. Five more months passed: more phone calls, more letters; no payment. Nyerges went back to court and got a writ of execution, which gave him permission to seize bank assets in payment for his judgment. > On June 3, Nyerges, two sheriff's deputies and a moving truck showed up at the local BofA branch. The deputies informed the manager that he could either pay the Nyerges' legal fees— $2,500—or the movers would start taking away the bank's furniture and cash. The manager, after conferring with his superiors, gave the deputies a check. > Bank of America later apologized to the Nyerges in writing--but managed to misspell their name.

gumby 3y ago

My developer account is not connected in any way with my personal apple ID. The dev appleid is so old it is not an email address -- in fact it has a space in it. That occasionally breaks things but I figure that might help in a case like that too :-)

PlunderBunny 3y ago

Assuming the case where your credit card (that is linked to your iCloud account) is stolen (I.e. just the credit card details) and then used fraudulently by someone else, and that this causes Apple to lock your account, would it be better to use an entirely separate card for iCloud and for iCloud only?

cesarb 3y ago
> (I.e. just the credit card details) and then used fraudulently by someone else [...] would it be better to use an entirely separate card for iCloud and for iCloud only? I've already once had a card used fraudulently as a credit card, but it had never been used for anything other than being initially unlocked at the bank's ATM (it was the card for the secondary owner of that bank account), and its credit card function hadn't even been enabled (which meant that the attempted misuse was immediately rejected). So I wouldn't expect that using a card for iCloud and iCloud only would be enough to prevent it from being used fraudulently somehow.

indigodaddy 3y ago

For my non-MoviesAnywhere direct movie purchases and code redeems, I’m starting to use Vudu a lot more than iTunes, as the having your account disabled or suspended for some vague reason is pretty much not a thing with Vudu. All Vudu does is movies and TV, nothing else, and they want to keep you as that customer.

worik 3y ago

Apple took $USD100 from me for a "developer license" I never received I fought back but realized they had all the power. The power to ruin me and my employer's business. FTC

pier25 3y ago

My father got hacked and lost access to his Apple account. The hacker proceeded to delete the account and tried to take control of his devices. At no moment Apple sent an email to my father to confirm anything. Once the account was deleted, there was nothing Apple could or would do. Everything was lost. Taking control of the devices back was quite the odyssey as Apple required invoices and whatnot.

oidar 3y ago
Can you tell me more about this?
- pier25 3y ago
  I wrote this Twitter thread when it happened. https://twitter.com/pierbover/status/1574875206220488705 https://twitter.com/pierbover/status/1574875206220488705 Let me know if you want more details
turquoisevar 3y ago
Are you sure it went the way you described here? You can’t take control of devices after deleting the account, and notifications are send out per email for every little thing from logging in from a new device to changing trusted devices and phone numbers to changing the address on file.
- pier25 3y ago
  I was as surprised as you are but AFAIK he didn't receive any email from Apple and he certainly didn't agree to having his account deleted. I guess one possibility is the hacker might have accessed my father's email but it seems improbable. AFAIK my father didn't store passwords on the keychain and didn't sync it with iCloud.

themagician 3y ago

I had this happen with both Facebook and Google. With Facebook it took 6 months to get fixed. Then it happened again in 2020 and I was only recently able to get the flag removed a few months ago. With Google I took it much more serious. Took about 6 days of non stop calls and emails. Probably put in 4-6 hours a day just trying over and over again. The trick is to just keep trying. Again and again. Don’t waste time talking to people who can’t help. You start to get a feel for it. Eventually you can find your way to “Risk Management“ and a human will review your account. Same response from both Facebook (multiple times) and Google, which is some derivation of, “Sorry. Our algorithm was overly zealous and accidentally flagged your account. The flag has been removed and your access restored.” Of course no one uses a real name or last name and everyone uses an ephemeral email address so it’s impossible to ever reach back out.

pdonis 3y ago

This is why I never have my only copy of anything on any online/"cloud" service.

hackan 3y ago

Stop throwing moneyz to them, they will never change...

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

pluc 3y ago

You don't get to 394 billion in revenue by being nice

retrocryptid 3y ago

hunh. turns out the cloud is someone else's computer. who knew?

chinabot 3y ago

I wish I could make a hackernews post that went viral everytime I got screwed over by a company

talkingtab 3y ago

If your state allows small claims court, then file an action. This is typically pretty easy. Small claims court is your friend. Apple can tell you all day long there is nothing to do, but it will cost them a lawyer to act respond to your small claims filing. EVERYONE should file a small claims action whenever you suffer a loss and someone says "there is nothing we can do." And please, post what happens.

notpushkin 3y ago

Reminder that it is completely ethical to torrent a movie you already bought. (Not saying it's legal, but IMO it should be.)

OptionX 3y ago

Well, at least there's one less person willing to sell their entire digital soul to a singular big corp. Shame OP had to learn it like this. This of course if s/he don't just make another AppleID, because fool me once and all that.

pasc1878 3y ago

Well done HN reddit is not responding.

Espionage724 3y ago

Ok I get what the title's purpose is, but that implied something totally different than what I actually read. Yeah you lose access to the content you technically rent from Apple if your account gets disabled. Same with other major providers. Go to your financial department and refund it, but even they would be doing you a favor since you've agreed to the provider's terms. Local files > cloud providers

djbusby 3y ago

Had an account booted from Amazon Affiliates. Vague reasons given. Appealed, denied, stated it final. But they have arbitration clause, so maybe that's an option? Arbitration costs $2000 USD. These kinds of situations need something of regulation. Not heavy, just let us get a hold of a human to explain and review these cases.

turquoisevar 3y ago

These fraud prevention actions are nothing new sadly. Apple does it, Google does it, your bank does it and you’ll never receive any details because they all heavily lean on security through obscurity, out of fear that any information might be helpful to game and circumvent detection. In the case of online services it’s also partially because they don’t know if they’re dealing with the scammer or the legitimate account holder and they don’t care to setup a process to do identity verification. The only difference is that with a bank you usually at least get your money (although Revolut has shown to not even do that in certain cases), with services you can pound sand because nothing is owned and it’s all based on licenses that can be revoked at any time for no reason. That’s why the small claims revenge fantasy is so silly, nothing will come of it. Yeah sure ToS don’t trump law, but the law has shown time and time again that it’s entirely ok with revoking licenses for pretty much any reason conceivable, because licenses aren’t held in the same regard as property rights. So far, every example I’ve seen with Apple has been a case in which the person redeemed thousands of dollars of gift cards, triggering the fraud algorithm in the process. A few of them managed to get their account reinstated by emailing the executive team. This is the first case I’ve seen in which the person insists that this isn’t the case and that they’ve done nothing to trigger the fraud algorithm. As an outsider I don’t have the details either way, but I’d be more concerned about the loss of data than the monetary value of purchases, if only because those can be charged back without worrying about the consequences (which normally be the closure of the Apple ID). I’d also reach out to the executive team, mainly because I have good experiences with them myself. Whatever the case, this is a risk that isn’t going to go away soon when dealing with companies.