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Mindfulness-based programs show promise in reducing psychological distress

92 points by _kyran 3y ago

miroljub 3y ago
Mindfulness meditation may reduce stress levels, but only temporary. Instead of focusing on the source of stress and trying to solve the underlying issues, it fights the symptoms. I don't say that it doesn't "work", but one should be aware of the limitation of mindfulness practices, and look at it just as one of the tools in a tool set to fight stress, not as a holy grail, like many of its proponents preach.
- molly0 3y ago
  You only hear about folks praising mindfulness, this is an interesting observation.
  - CrzyLngPwd 3y ago
    You might like this: https://www.amazon.co.uk/McMindfulness-Ronald-Purser/dp/191224831X https://www.amazon.co.uk/McMindfulness-Ronald-Purser/dp/1912...
- TekMol 3y ago
  User counters 13000 word meta study by simply stating the opposite without giving any arguments, sources or studies. Is there a forum like Hacker News, but with no "talking out of your ass"? How could the mechanics of a forum be set up to achieve this? The thought "Is it a long term effect or just temporary?" is totally fine. But then just posting out of your ass does not help anyobody. A quick search for "months" in the meta study shows that they looked at effects during the 6 months after the intervention. So I think many people together could come up with an interesting discussion. But it would mean everybody has to do some work.
  - celdon25 3y ago
    > How could the mechanics of a forum be set up to achieve this? I’ve seen the best results with niche email lists that actively moderate the discussion quality. But the results are mixed and I eventually decided that it’s a lost cause. People who don’t bring anything to the table tend to have more time on their hands to post nonsense.
    - verteu 3y ago
      A minimum word limit on comments could help. I'd much prefer "in-depth and dismissive" comments over "brief and dismissive" ones.
  - miroljub 3y ago
    > User counters 13000 word meta study by simply stating the opposite without giving any arguments, sources or studies. I am giving my opinion on a random forum, not writing a study about mindfulness. I didn't even say anything controversial, a glance at the wikipedia page would list a bunch of criticism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindfulness#Concerns_and_criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindfulness#Concerns_and_criti... > Is there a forum like Hacker News, but with no "talking out of your ass"? > How could the mechanics of a forum be set up to achieve this? For example, you could try not to be an asshole and not to "talk out of your ass". Be a change you want to see. Btw, in your case, a mindfulness practice could actually help. Instead of pretending to be an angry internet gestapo, you can try some basic breathing practices for a few minutes.
    - tuyiown 3y ago
      Ha, but your are both right with the wrong behavior. You're entitled to you tone, and your initial comment is valid, yes, but it's way to much assertive. Respecting people you're discussing with implies two things: strong assertion needs objective backup, opinions comes with deference. If not, then, people feeling disrespected are entitled to their (civil) call for proper etiquette, whatever how it stings your ego. You both failed.
    - verteu 3y ago
      > I didn't even say anything controversial, a glance at the wikipedia page would list a bunch of criticism. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindfulness#Concerns_and_criti https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindfulness#Concerns_and_criti Nothing in that Wiki link supports your claim that mindfulness doesn't fight the root cause of distress. The 'Scholarly Research' subsection says reviewers want more reproducing studies with larger sample sizes and better randomization (they always do), the 'Shortcomings' subsection claims it's too commercialized and departs from Buddhist practice (so what?), and the 'Risks' subsection describes some side effects that are proven rare in the literature. The Buddhist critiques are closest, but are largely framed as a critique of authenticity rather than efficacy.
  - theaussiestew 3y ago
    He gave details but you provided no rebuttal of his rebuttal. I would agree with him in the sense that just neutral observation often fixes the problem, but often can be a form of spiritually bypassing your problems. For example, if we're anxious from a lack of income, but all we do is neutrally observe, that's not solving the root problem.
  - iljabek 3y ago
    [dead]
  - klmlryc11 3y ago
    Meta studies study individual papers which in turn are essentially asking people if they feel happier if they do X. Anecdotally. This particular one does a lot of math which no one has the patience to verify. It just sounds smart, like the papers on nature.com that advertise probiotics. If you trick yourself into being happy while being exploited by the system it may indeed work (that's why rulers liked Christianity as a tool for pacifying the masses). But you are not solving the underlying issues.
  - astrange 3y ago
    > User counters 13000 word meta study by simply stating the opposite without giving any arguments, sources or studies. Well, it's quite true that sometimes instead of developing stress resilience you should simply get rid of the source of the stress.
    - hombre_fatal 3y ago
      Yes but that’s a trivial claim.
      - miroljub 3y ago
        Care to claim something substantial and contribute to the discussion in a non-trivial way?
      - astrange 3y ago
        I think it's the kind of obvious thing you still need to remind yourself of.
        hombre_fatal 3y ago
        Trivial claims aren't useful responses because we can just grant them. That mindfulness-based programs show promise in reducing distress isn't changed by the fact that the people who can simply remove their stress sources from their life. Go ahead and do that. Now let's talk about everyone else.
  - mrguyorama 3y ago
    >How could the mechanics of a forum be set up to achieve this? Well, the way you achieve a forum where nobody talks out of your ass is by making a forum without a submit button. However I agree, it's absurd the level of quackery that takes over HN in these circumstances, as if one SV weirdo's magic mushroom trip invalidates decades of genuine research on what makes people stressed and the ways to mitigate that stress. Nope, apparently we are just all following the wrong religion!
  - unsubstantiated 3y ago
    >How could the mechanics of a forum be set up to achieve this? Asking people to post their work and downvoting/flagging/banning them if they refuse.
- Frummy 3y ago
  I agree. Sometimes mindfulness may reveal lies to oneself however, sometimes I have been tied to an identity which in itself keeps me tied to a system which oppresses me. Relieving myself of the identity allows me to leave the system which does not serve me.
- Sakos 3y ago
  A lot of times, you simply can't solve the source of stress or it takes a lot of time before you're able to. How do I solve having cancer or any other health issue? Like most things in life, it's not something that's solvable overnight. Why not reduce the emotional/psychological suffering you feel before you can actually solve the problem? In fact, that reduction in emotional distress can help you find better solutions to whatever problems you're dealing with. I don't see any downsides unless for some reason you think meditation is supposed to be the solution to life's problems, when it's just a method for handling your inner life.
  - ajb 3y ago
    Coping skills are great, but there is definitely a danger of psychological professionals assuming that changes are not possible and they should just train people to cope. I've literally had a psychologist apologise for spending several months doing that to me, because he didn't realize that I had the resources, and let's be blunt - money - to make greater changes to my life than he expected.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- jstx1 3y ago
  > Instead of focusing on the source of stress and trying to solve the underlying issues, it fights the symptoms. This only makes sense if you assume that being stressed is a correct and useful response to your environment.
- SoKamil 3y ago
  And stress is subjective and often temporary. The less we have it in our lives, the better. We can put that recovered energy in solving problems.
- NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
  You're partially correct in that it does not focus on the source of stress. Rather, it focuses on the Source of peace. As a Christian, my contemplative practice is focused on the source of truth and life, Christ Jesus. There will still be suffering in this life, but it will pass away, and Christ will remain, our Source of peace and comfort. My contemplative practice helps me prepare for that day by peeling away all the distractions and false trappings of everyday life, and discovering what is truly important. It is a journey of discovery, a journey of finding Jesus, and thereby finding my identity as a child of God.
  - zuzuleinen 3y ago
    I'm curios how much time per day do you dedicate to your contemplative practice?
- FrustratedMonky 3y ago
  >" Instead of focusing on the source of stress and trying to solve the underlying issues, it fights the symptoms." This isn't bad. One can take medicine to reduce a fever to help the body heal. Nobody says "but reducing the fever is worthless, that is just treating a symptom".
- wodenokoto 3y ago
  Maybe the underlying issue is commonly that one worry about things out of ones control. I don't think anybody is advocating mindfulness as a response to an abusive spouse, but more of a "here's a tool to help you let go of work when you leave the office" Especially among the HN crowd, I imagine I am not the only one thinking about how to move forward with a project or what I should say in tomorrows stand-up meeting. There is no core issue to deal with. I can figure both out when I arrive at work tomorrow.
- yadingus 3y ago
  The real source of stress is the mind.
toshk 3y ago
Mindfulness took one small technique out of the Buddhist system that feels rational & scientific. It kind of works. But the corpus of Buddhism is what makes it powerful. And this is hard to make palatable for the West. The main goal of buddhism is giving you meaning & joy in life despite of stress or tragedy. Very important aspects of Buddhism that make the whole much more powerful are: - Living & acting out of compassion (boddhicitta): if your main focus is other not yourself, a huge relief of worries is gone, and meaning arises naturally. - Accepting change. There are 2 ways to see change: "nothing matters" or "no need to worry, just relax". Buddhist meditation is geared to getting you to the positive kind. - Understanding emptiness (or space) as the nature of all experiences, both rationally but in the end resting in this experience in meditation means dissolving into everything and experiencing deep bliss. And of course the power devotion & social aspects of all religion can not be overlooked, good & bad. My teachings are from Tibetan kind, which is more mystical & compassionate oriented then the southern countries which are more focus on self-actualization (they teach the Vispasanna retreats)
- FrustratedMonky 3y ago
  It is hard to communicate the uncommunicable. >"The main goal of buddhism is giving you meaning & joy in life despite of stress or tragedy." See. I'm a buddhist and don't agree with this at all.
- fuzztester 3y ago
  >My teachings are from Tibetan kind, which is more mystical & compassionate oriented Any links or book names to read more about this?
  - toshk 3y ago
    There are many books, but in the end this can't be thought in a book. Bodhipath is probably a good place, they also have lots of online things to read: https://bodhipath.org/ https://bodhipath.org/. It's more focused on the compassion part. The mystical is something which is easy to find online, but hard to find someone with the experience. But there are different schools, more focused on study, mediation etc. Some are more formal, others informal.
rjprins 3y ago
Stress is all about perception. With mindfulness you can practice changing the way you look at things. If you practice zooming out of things that induce fear and see a bigger picture this will generally reduce stress. The mind has a natural tendency to zoom in on scary things. I guess that is our prey-animal heritage. Certainly, for rightfully stressful situations immediate action is needed and mindfulness is not a solution, but in modern life almost all stress comes from the imagination. If you are not conscious of your own thinking fearful thoughts may suck you in indefinitely. Mindfulness (and psychedelics) can greatly help with becoming (more) conscious of fearful thoughts and that enables you to deal with them constructively. Clearly it depends on the type mindfulness. From the paper: > mindfulness is typically defined as “the awareness that emerges through paying attention on purpose, in the present moment, and nonjudgmentally to the unfolding of experience moment by moment”. Core MBP elements are mindfulness meditation training, doing things mindfully such as eating or brushing one’s teeth, and collective and individual inquiry with a qualified teacher, using participatory learning processes. Probably heightening consciousness while brushing your teeth is not the most direct way to mitigating stress.
- guerrilla 3y ago
  > Stress is all about perception. No, stress is actually physiological. What your saying is limited to specific sources of stress.
  - yadingus 3y ago
    The mind is the brain and the body. Stress is generated by the mind when contacting external objects, or when reliving past trauma. There is no such thing as an external source of stress. You can't measure how much stress an object or situation is objectively emitting, because it is a response generated by the mind itself. As such it can only be examined by the mind itself, and with that it can be mastered.
    - guerrilla 3y ago
      I didn't say anything about external sources of stress. I said sources of stress. External events cause stress in the body which can be measured physiologically and neurologically. The mind can be a contributing factor but it is absolutely not necessary. Injuries that you're entirely unconscious of can cause significant levels of stress which are measurable.
illwrks 3y ago
It depends on the nature of the stress. If you're over worked you don't have time for mindfulness apps.
- vouaobrasil 3y ago
  You can still meditate with focus on breathing for even 1 minute. It may not be as effective as if you had more time, but I used to do that on the bus to work or even at work when taking a break so you can still do something.
- NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
  If you're so overworked that you don't think you have time for ten minutes of meditation every day, then your time management is poor and needs a re-evaluation of priorities. Do you say the same thing about the gym, or sleep time? Are you too busy to rest in bed for 7-8 hours a night?
  - maximus-decimus 3y ago
    A ton of people don't go to the gym or sleep enough because they feel they don't have enough time. I'm just so confused by the question. It's well documented that parents are sleep deprived and it's a common "joke" that in college you can only pick 2 out of 3 : good grades, a social life or sleep. There's actually no upper limit to how long you can spend just on your studies.
    - mensetmanusman 3y ago
      The average American watches three hours of TV every day.
      - maximus-decimus 3y ago
        People are not averages though. My parents are retired and watch 6+ hours of tv a day. I don't even have cable.
- 3y ago
Knee_Pain 3y ago
If you want a free mindfulness app you should consider searching for the one developed by the US Department of Veteran Affairs on your platform's app store. It usually ranks very low on the list because not many people know about it and because all the other apps market themselves heavily. Unlike all the garbage apps which ask you for subscriptions and DLCs just to play 10 minutes of audio, every single thing is free and freely downloadable. It also has customization options, a journal, a very simple and rational interface and a small corpus of advice.
- throw_pm23 3y ago
  I find meditation, mindfulness on the one hand and apps, smartphones, and technology, on the other, to be a grotesque contradiction in terms. Obviously I know this is not a widespread opinion.
  - Knee_Pain 3y ago
    Explain the contradiction of terms, otherwise this reply is worthlessly vague
    - NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
      A smartphone is a device designed to distract us and hold our attention. Even with a well-behaved app on it, it's still designed and configured to constantly beep and whistle and send notifications, and fly into our hand and compel us to doomscroll something unimportant. It's fairly impossible to reconfigure a consumer device so that it doesn't do this. Someone who is practicing contemplation should not be held prisoner by a robot voice or a glowing screen, but instead reach an inner presence of God, and His stillness encompassing all that we experience during that sacred time. It is absolutely necessary to shut out every distraction possible. At the same time, we acknowledge that the practitioner will be distracted in some way, not through his own fault, and we must learn the proper response to fleeting distractions. But to purposely tether yourself to a created, pagan object is to invite failure from the outset.
submeta 3y ago
Mindfulness meditation is not merely a feel-good exercise or some mystical ritual. It's a practice that allows us to regularly enter a state of mind where we're not consumed by our incessant thoughts, which are constantly evaluating, reflecting on the past, or worrying about the future. This mental chatter is often the root cause of much of our stress. Many people rarely experience a state of mind where they are fully present in the moment, where the past and future are irrelevant, and only the immediate moment matters. Some may have experienced this while watching a sunrise or after a moment of joyous exertion. However, through the practice of mindfulness meditation, one can intentionally enter this state of mind, which can be profoundly healing. Mindfulness meditation is not goal-oriented. It's not practiced with the intention of achieving peace of mind or eliminating stress. The desire for things to be different, for wanting to be "there" instead of "here," is the modus operandi of our thinking mind. Mindfulness meditation allows us to enter a different state of mind, an observing mind that perceives things as they are. It observes the thinking mind and realizes that we are not our thoughts, or our thinking mind. We are much more than that, a meta-mind. This concept may be challenging for many participants on this forum to accept, as they are entrenched in an outcome and achievement-focused mindset. They may have never experienced a mindful moment, and therefore dismiss it as nonsense. It's nonsensical to "evaluate" mindfulness meditation in terms of results to be achieved. Mindfulness meditation is not about striving for specific outcomes, but rather about embracing a set of practices that cultivate acceptance. It's about acknowledging and accepting our thoughts, feelings, and experiences without judgment. It's about observing reality as it unfolds, moment by moment, and embracing it in its entirety, with all its complexities and contradictions. This practice encourages us to regularly connect with the present moment, to truly experience the 'now' rather than getting lost in the past or the future. It's about letting go of our preconceived notions, our biases, and our incessant need to control. It's about surrendering to the flow of life, allowing things to be as they are, and finding peace in that acceptance.
- 50 3y ago
  Cioran, in effect: The blank time of meditation is, in truth, the only "full" time. We should never blush to accumulate vacant moments—vacant in appearance, filled in fact. To meditate is a supreme leisure, whose secret has been lost.
bitterblotter 3y ago
This reminds me of a visualization for box breathing I made a while ago, if anyone is interested. https://lassebomh.github.io/box-breathing/ https://lassebomh.github.io/box-breathing/ If you scroll down there is a simple guide and some relaxing music. The site can also be installed as a PWA and added to your homescreen / desktop.
spaceheater 3y ago
[Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31306000 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31306000 [Too Much Mindfulness Can Worsen Your Mental Health] https://www.verywellhealth.com/mindfulness-can-be-harmful-researchers-say-5186740 https://www.verywellhealth.com/mindfulness-can-be-harmful-re...
- yadingus 3y ago
  If your body is ill and needs surgery, the aftermath of the surgery can make you feel worse for a while. Likewise, if not understood well, not accompanied by proper understanding (which is a symptom of the western approach), it can just be poorly performed. Quality, not quantity.
wodenokoto 3y ago
Is there any evidence or research on the effectiveness of guided meditation in listeners first or second languages?

92 points by _kyran 3y ago

Mindfulness meditation may reduce stress levels, but only temporary. Instead of focusing on the source of stress and trying to solve the underlying issues, it fights the symptoms. I don't say that it doesn't "work", but one should be aware of the limitation of mindfulness practices, and look at it just as one of the tools in a tool set to fight stress, not as a holy grail, like many of its proponents preach.

molly0 3y ago
You only hear about folks praising mindfulness, this is an interesting observation.
- CrzyLngPwd 3y ago
  You might like this: https://www.amazon.co.uk/McMindfulness-Ronald-Purser/dp/191224831X https://www.amazon.co.uk/McMindfulness-Ronald-Purser/dp/1912...
TekMol 3y ago
User counters 13000 word meta study by simply stating the opposite without giving any arguments, sources or studies. Is there a forum like Hacker News, but with no "talking out of your ass"? How could the mechanics of a forum be set up to achieve this? The thought "Is it a long term effect or just temporary?" is totally fine. But then just posting out of your ass does not help anyobody. A quick search for "months" in the meta study shows that they looked at effects during the 6 months after the intervention. So I think many people together could come up with an interesting discussion. But it would mean everybody has to do some work.
- celdon25 3y ago
  > How could the mechanics of a forum be set up to achieve this? I’ve seen the best results with niche email lists that actively moderate the discussion quality. But the results are mixed and I eventually decided that it’s a lost cause. People who don’t bring anything to the table tend to have more time on their hands to post nonsense.
  - verteu 3y ago
    A minimum word limit on comments could help. I'd much prefer "in-depth and dismissive" comments over "brief and dismissive" ones.
- miroljub 3y ago
  > User counters 13000 word meta study by simply stating the opposite without giving any arguments, sources or studies. I am giving my opinion on a random forum, not writing a study about mindfulness. I didn't even say anything controversial, a glance at the wikipedia page would list a bunch of criticism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindfulness#Concerns_and_criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindfulness#Concerns_and_criti... > Is there a forum like Hacker News, but with no "talking out of your ass"? > How could the mechanics of a forum be set up to achieve this? For example, you could try not to be an asshole and not to "talk out of your ass". Be a change you want to see. Btw, in your case, a mindfulness practice could actually help. Instead of pretending to be an angry internet gestapo, you can try some basic breathing practices for a few minutes.
  - tuyiown 3y ago
    Ha, but your are both right with the wrong behavior. You're entitled to you tone, and your initial comment is valid, yes, but it's way to much assertive. Respecting people you're discussing with implies two things: strong assertion needs objective backup, opinions comes with deference. If not, then, people feeling disrespected are entitled to their (civil) call for proper etiquette, whatever how it stings your ego. You both failed.
  - verteu 3y ago
    > I didn't even say anything controversial, a glance at the wikipedia page would list a bunch of criticism. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindfulness#Concerns_and_criti https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindfulness#Concerns_and_criti Nothing in that Wiki link supports your claim that mindfulness doesn't fight the root cause of distress. The 'Scholarly Research' subsection says reviewers want more reproducing studies with larger sample sizes and better randomization (they always do), the 'Shortcomings' subsection claims it's too commercialized and departs from Buddhist practice (so what?), and the 'Risks' subsection describes some side effects that are proven rare in the literature. The Buddhist critiques are closest, but are largely framed as a critique of authenticity rather than efficacy.
- theaussiestew 3y ago
  He gave details but you provided no rebuttal of his rebuttal. I would agree with him in the sense that just neutral observation often fixes the problem, but often can be a form of spiritually bypassing your problems. For example, if we're anxious from a lack of income, but all we do is neutrally observe, that's not solving the root problem.
- iljabek 3y ago
  [dead]
- klmlryc11 3y ago
  Meta studies study individual papers which in turn are essentially asking people if they feel happier if they do X. Anecdotally. This particular one does a lot of math which no one has the patience to verify. It just sounds smart, like the papers on nature.com that advertise probiotics. If you trick yourself into being happy while being exploited by the system it may indeed work (that's why rulers liked Christianity as a tool for pacifying the masses). But you are not solving the underlying issues.
- astrange 3y ago
  > User counters 13000 word meta study by simply stating the opposite without giving any arguments, sources or studies. Well, it's quite true that sometimes instead of developing stress resilience you should simply get rid of the source of the stress.
  - hombre_fatal 3y ago
    Yes but that’s a trivial claim.
    - miroljub 3y ago
      Care to claim something substantial and contribute to the discussion in a non-trivial way?
    - astrange 3y ago
      I think it's the kind of obvious thing you still need to remind yourself of.
      - hombre_fatal 3y ago
        Trivial claims aren't useful responses because we can just grant them. That mindfulness-based programs show promise in reducing distress isn't changed by the fact that the people who can simply remove their stress sources from their life. Go ahead and do that. Now let's talk about everyone else.
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  >How could the mechanics of a forum be set up to achieve this? Well, the way you achieve a forum where nobody talks out of your ass is by making a forum without a submit button. However I agree, it's absurd the level of quackery that takes over HN in these circumstances, as if one SV weirdo's magic mushroom trip invalidates decades of genuine research on what makes people stressed and the ways to mitigate that stress. Nope, apparently we are just all following the wrong religion!
- unsubstantiated 3y ago
  >How could the mechanics of a forum be set up to achieve this? Asking people to post their work and downvoting/flagging/banning them if they refuse.
Frummy 3y ago
I agree. Sometimes mindfulness may reveal lies to oneself however, sometimes I have been tied to an identity which in itself keeps me tied to a system which oppresses me. Relieving myself of the identity allows me to leave the system which does not serve me.
Sakos 3y ago
A lot of times, you simply can't solve the source of stress or it takes a lot of time before you're able to. How do I solve having cancer or any other health issue? Like most things in life, it's not something that's solvable overnight. Why not reduce the emotional/psychological suffering you feel before you can actually solve the problem? In fact, that reduction in emotional distress can help you find better solutions to whatever problems you're dealing with. I don't see any downsides unless for some reason you think meditation is supposed to be the solution to life's problems, when it's just a method for handling your inner life.
- ajb 3y ago
  Coping skills are great, but there is definitely a danger of psychological professionals assuming that changes are not possible and they should just train people to cope. I've literally had a psychologist apologise for spending several months doing that to me, because he didn't realize that I had the resources, and let's be blunt - money - to make greater changes to my life than he expected.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
jstx1 3y ago
> Instead of focusing on the source of stress and trying to solve the underlying issues, it fights the symptoms. This only makes sense if you assume that being stressed is a correct and useful response to your environment.
SoKamil 3y ago
And stress is subjective and often temporary. The less we have it in our lives, the better. We can put that recovered energy in solving problems.
NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
You're partially correct in that it does not focus on the source of stress. Rather, it focuses on the Source of peace. As a Christian, my contemplative practice is focused on the source of truth and life, Christ Jesus. There will still be suffering in this life, but it will pass away, and Christ will remain, our Source of peace and comfort. My contemplative practice helps me prepare for that day by peeling away all the distractions and false trappings of everyday life, and discovering what is truly important. It is a journey of discovery, a journey of finding Jesus, and thereby finding my identity as a child of God.
- zuzuleinen 3y ago
  I'm curios how much time per day do you dedicate to your contemplative practice?
FrustratedMonky 3y ago
>" Instead of focusing on the source of stress and trying to solve the underlying issues, it fights the symptoms." This isn't bad. One can take medicine to reduce a fever to help the body heal. Nobody says "but reducing the fever is worthless, that is just treating a symptom".
wodenokoto 3y ago
Maybe the underlying issue is commonly that one worry about things out of ones control. I don't think anybody is advocating mindfulness as a response to an abusive spouse, but more of a "here's a tool to help you let go of work when you leave the office" Especially among the HN crowd, I imagine I am not the only one thinking about how to move forward with a project or what I should say in tomorrows stand-up meeting. There is no core issue to deal with. I can figure both out when I arrive at work tomorrow.
yadingus 3y ago
The real source of stress is the mind.

toshk 3y ago

Mindfulness took one small technique out of the Buddhist system that feels rational & scientific. It kind of works. But the corpus of Buddhism is what makes it powerful. And this is hard to make palatable for the West. The main goal of buddhism is giving you meaning & joy in life despite of stress or tragedy. Very important aspects of Buddhism that make the whole much more powerful are: - Living & acting out of compassion (boddhicitta): if your main focus is other not yourself, a huge relief of worries is gone, and meaning arises naturally. - Accepting change. There are 2 ways to see change: "nothing matters" or "no need to worry, just relax". Buddhist meditation is geared to getting you to the positive kind. - Understanding emptiness (or space) as the nature of all experiences, both rationally but in the end resting in this experience in meditation means dissolving into everything and experiencing deep bliss. And of course the power devotion & social aspects of all religion can not be overlooked, good & bad. My teachings are from Tibetan kind, which is more mystical & compassionate oriented then the southern countries which are more focus on self-actualization (they teach the Vispasanna retreats)

FrustratedMonky 3y ago
It is hard to communicate the uncommunicable. >"The main goal of buddhism is giving you meaning & joy in life despite of stress or tragedy." See. I'm a buddhist and don't agree with this at all.
fuzztester 3y ago
>My teachings are from Tibetan kind, which is more mystical & compassionate oriented Any links or book names to read more about this?
- toshk 3y ago
  There are many books, but in the end this can't be thought in a book. Bodhipath is probably a good place, they also have lots of online things to read: https://bodhipath.org/ https://bodhipath.org/. It's more focused on the compassion part. The mystical is something which is easy to find online, but hard to find someone with the experience. But there are different schools, more focused on study, mediation etc. Some are more formal, others informal.

rjprins 3y ago

Stress is all about perception. With mindfulness you can practice changing the way you look at things. If you practice zooming out of things that induce fear and see a bigger picture this will generally reduce stress. The mind has a natural tendency to zoom in on scary things. I guess that is our prey-animal heritage. Certainly, for rightfully stressful situations immediate action is needed and mindfulness is not a solution, but in modern life almost all stress comes from the imagination. If you are not conscious of your own thinking fearful thoughts may suck you in indefinitely. Mindfulness (and psychedelics) can greatly help with becoming (more) conscious of fearful thoughts and that enables you to deal with them constructively. Clearly it depends on the type mindfulness. From the paper: > mindfulness is typically defined as “the awareness that emerges through paying attention on purpose, in the present moment, and nonjudgmentally to the unfolding of experience moment by moment”. Core MBP elements are mindfulness meditation training, doing things mindfully such as eating or brushing one’s teeth, and collective and individual inquiry with a qualified teacher, using participatory learning processes. Probably heightening consciousness while brushing your teeth is not the most direct way to mitigating stress.

guerrilla 3y ago
> Stress is all about perception. No, stress is actually physiological. What your saying is limited to specific sources of stress.
- yadingus 3y ago
  The mind is the brain and the body. Stress is generated by the mind when contacting external objects, or when reliving past trauma. There is no such thing as an external source of stress. You can't measure how much stress an object or situation is objectively emitting, because it is a response generated by the mind itself. As such it can only be examined by the mind itself, and with that it can be mastered.
  - guerrilla 3y ago
    I didn't say anything about external sources of stress. I said sources of stress. External events cause stress in the body which can be measured physiologically and neurologically. The mind can be a contributing factor but it is absolutely not necessary. Injuries that you're entirely unconscious of can cause significant levels of stress which are measurable.

illwrks 3y ago

It depends on the nature of the stress. If you're over worked you don't have time for mindfulness apps.

vouaobrasil 3y ago
You can still meditate with focus on breathing for even 1 minute. It may not be as effective as if you had more time, but I used to do that on the bus to work or even at work when taking a break so you can still do something.
NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
If you're so overworked that you don't think you have time for ten minutes of meditation every day, then your time management is poor and needs a re-evaluation of priorities. Do you say the same thing about the gym, or sleep time? Are you too busy to rest in bed for 7-8 hours a night?
- maximus-decimus 3y ago
  A ton of people don't go to the gym or sleep enough because they feel they don't have enough time. I'm just so confused by the question. It's well documented that parents are sleep deprived and it's a common "joke" that in college you can only pick 2 out of 3 : good grades, a social life or sleep. There's actually no upper limit to how long you can spend just on your studies.
  - mensetmanusman 3y ago
    The average American watches three hours of TV every day.
    - maximus-decimus 3y ago
      People are not averages though. My parents are retired and watch 6+ hours of tv a day. I don't even have cable.
3y ago

Knee_Pain 3y ago

If you want a free mindfulness app you should consider searching for the one developed by the US Department of Veteran Affairs on your platform's app store. It usually ranks very low on the list because not many people know about it and because all the other apps market themselves heavily. Unlike all the garbage apps which ask you for subscriptions and DLCs just to play 10 minutes of audio, every single thing is free and freely downloadable. It also has customization options, a journal, a very simple and rational interface and a small corpus of advice.

throw_pm23 3y ago
I find meditation, mindfulness on the one hand and apps, smartphones, and technology, on the other, to be a grotesque contradiction in terms. Obviously I know this is not a widespread opinion.
- Knee_Pain 3y ago
  Explain the contradiction of terms, otherwise this reply is worthlessly vague
  - NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
    A smartphone is a device designed to distract us and hold our attention. Even with a well-behaved app on it, it's still designed and configured to constantly beep and whistle and send notifications, and fly into our hand and compel us to doomscroll something unimportant. It's fairly impossible to reconfigure a consumer device so that it doesn't do this. Someone who is practicing contemplation should not be held prisoner by a robot voice or a glowing screen, but instead reach an inner presence of God, and His stillness encompassing all that we experience during that sacred time. It is absolutely necessary to shut out every distraction possible. At the same time, we acknowledge that the practitioner will be distracted in some way, not through his own fault, and we must learn the proper response to fleeting distractions. But to purposely tether yourself to a created, pagan object is to invite failure from the outset.

submeta 3y ago

Mindfulness meditation is not merely a feel-good exercise or some mystical ritual. It's a practice that allows us to regularly enter a state of mind where we're not consumed by our incessant thoughts, which are constantly evaluating, reflecting on the past, or worrying about the future. This mental chatter is often the root cause of much of our stress. Many people rarely experience a state of mind where they are fully present in the moment, where the past and future are irrelevant, and only the immediate moment matters. Some may have experienced this while watching a sunrise or after a moment of joyous exertion. However, through the practice of mindfulness meditation, one can intentionally enter this state of mind, which can be profoundly healing. Mindfulness meditation is not goal-oriented. It's not practiced with the intention of achieving peace of mind or eliminating stress. The desire for things to be different, for wanting to be "there" instead of "here," is the modus operandi of our thinking mind. Mindfulness meditation allows us to enter a different state of mind, an observing mind that perceives things as they are. It observes the thinking mind and realizes that we are not our thoughts, or our thinking mind. We are much more than that, a meta-mind. This concept may be challenging for many participants on this forum to accept, as they are entrenched in an outcome and achievement-focused mindset. They may have never experienced a mindful moment, and therefore dismiss it as nonsense. It's nonsensical to "evaluate" mindfulness meditation in terms of results to be achieved. Mindfulness meditation is not about striving for specific outcomes, but rather about embracing a set of practices that cultivate acceptance. It's about acknowledging and accepting our thoughts, feelings, and experiences without judgment. It's about observing reality as it unfolds, moment by moment, and embracing it in its entirety, with all its complexities and contradictions. This practice encourages us to regularly connect with the present moment, to truly experience the 'now' rather than getting lost in the past or the future. It's about letting go of our preconceived notions, our biases, and our incessant need to control. It's about surrendering to the flow of life, allowing things to be as they are, and finding peace in that acceptance.

50 3y ago
Cioran, in effect: The blank time of meditation is, in truth, the only "full" time. We should never blush to accumulate vacant moments—vacant in appearance, filled in fact. To meditate is a supreme leisure, whose secret has been lost.

bitterblotter 3y ago

This reminds me of a visualization for box breathing I made a while ago, if anyone is interested. https://lassebomh.github.io/box-breathing/ https://lassebomh.github.io/box-breathing/ If you scroll down there is a simple guide and some relaxing music. The site can also be installed as a PWA and added to your homescreen / desktop.

spaceheater 3y ago

[Emerging evidence that mindfulness can sometimes increase selfish tendencies] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31306000 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31306000 [Too Much Mindfulness Can Worsen Your Mental Health] https://www.verywellhealth.com/mindfulness-can-be-harmful-researchers-say-5186740 https://www.verywellhealth.com/mindfulness-can-be-harmful-re...

yadingus 3y ago
If your body is ill and needs surgery, the aftermath of the surgery can make you feel worse for a while. Likewise, if not understood well, not accompanied by proper understanding (which is a symptom of the western approach), it can just be poorly performed. Quality, not quantity.

wodenokoto 3y ago

Is there any evidence or research on the effectiveness of guided meditation in listeners first or second languages?