10 ms·

eSIM is altering how consumers interact with operators

144 points by signa11 3y ago

daggersandscars 3y ago
eSIMs can also make it easier to switch phones. Want to try a different OS? Going hiking and don't want to risk your nice phone? Traveling? A great thing about this is you can have multiple phones preconfigured for specific purposes and just move the line to the phone when needed. On one carrier, moving between phones takes a minute or two. I eventually switched to Android from iOS after setting up one of each and switching between them.
- adrianmsmith 3y ago
  Surely this is the same with real SIMs? I mean, assuming you have the "SIM tool" available, you can move the SIM from one phone to another in a minute or so?
  - daggersandscars 3y ago
    The time I tried this in with my previous carrier with a smartphone, I had to call the cellular provider and get the phone "authorized" before it would work. I don't know if this was specific to the carrier, specific to the phone, or to the era (~10 years ago). With my current carrier, switching physical SIMs does not activate the phone on the service. I have to use an app. Perhaps this is because I use an MVNO? eSIMs make this easier. I had no problem swapping SIMs for basic phone service in the pre-smartphone era.
    - daveoc64 3y ago
      These pros and cons you list are all down to policies that a carrier may enact. With a physical SIM, they can't stop you putting it into another phone, and there are no good technical reasons why you shouldn't be able to swap a SIM into a compatible phone and have it work immediately. That's how it's worked in many countries since GSM came out in the 90s. With eSIMs, you may need to contact the carrier to transfer the SIM to a new device. This is a contact point with the carrier - and one where they can add barriers or fees.
    - ezfe 3y ago
      While I am an eSIM proponent, what you're describing could happen with eSIMs as well and is unrelated to the format of the SIM. For example, I use AT&T and before eSIM I could transfer my physical SIM between phones without calling AT&T. Now, with eSIM I can still transfer my eSIM between phones without calling AT&T so nothing has really changed.
      - devilbunny 3y ago
        Can you transfer it between phones if one of them isn't working? This is an issue I have actually faced in the past that was no problem at all with a physical SIM. If I'm outside the US, my phone dies/is crushed, and I need to be back up and working: right now, I just pull my backup phone out of my bag, put the SIM in (assuming it isn't crushed or dead), and within a few minutes, I'm back up and running. If I have to go find WiFi to be able to get to Verizon's website to start the eSIM process, that's much more of a challenge. No 2FA because... my phone's dead and I can't get a text. No Verizon stores to show them the corpse of my old phone. If there were some way to pre-transfer the eSIM and only activate it if needed, it might be a different story.
        ezfe 3y ago
        Not sure about AT&T because I've never done it, but with Visible (another phone in my family) I can login to the app and install a new eSIM again. It really does depend on carrier policy I would say
        devilbunny 3y ago
        Thanks. Apparently you can do this on Verizon as well. Still need WiFi, but that's not usually a nightmare. Glad I don't like traveling in the boonies, though.
      - rawgabbit 3y ago
        I am on ATT and have been reluctant to switch to eSIM. Is there any gotchas I should watch out for?
- Sylamore 3y ago
  I was doing the same thing with physical SIMs for over a decade before eSIMs even existed. I even could use SIM trays to make the same one fit in different form factors.
kotaKat 3y ago
Meanwhile, small/private operators can't even leverage eSIM. We're trying to run a CBRS-based LTE deployment in-house and can't find a single company willing to work with us to get eSIM provisioning capabilities because we can't just make eSIMs like we can physical ones -- thanks to eSIM's fairly obtuse cryptogatekeeping by the GSMA, we can't do anything without their blessings. Every single company that we've found that claims to do small-scale eSIM personalization/SM-DP/etc services just... won't answer our sales forms. Monogoto, Teal, Globalgig, Smartjac... nobody. EDIT: To note, of course, if we were willing to spend tens of thousands directly with a manufacturer or company that actually does this stuff for a living (selling the whole core/radios/etc) I'm sure they'd bend over backwards, but we know how to deploy open5gs and buy eNodeBs that work in our system and deploy them as-is (up to and including abusing former Pollen Mobile gear) -- we already have a dozen or so devices on via physical SIM in our office.
- KingFelix 3y ago
  Kotakat!! I attempted to ping you on discord but it wouldn't let me. I found your discord posts super helpful with Pollen gear! Thank you for that. I might be able to help with esims, asking someone right now. Are you doing data only? or ims too?
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
2143 3y ago
What if I go abroad for a few days and need a temporary SIM from there, but my phone only supports eSIM? With eSIM there's a tighter coupling between the phone and carrier. Not sure if I like that. > Apple’s move to make eSIM the only option for iPhone 14 range in the U.S. is propelling the worldwide shift towards eSIM technology. Speaking of which, I know for a fact that the iPhone 14 sold in India has a SIM card slot (eSIM also supported).
- ericpauley 3y ago
  There are companies (won’t endorse any in particular) that will let you buy data eSIMs for virtually any country. They can be downloaded before you leave or using airport WiFi, and usually activate automatically when you arrive.
  - adeelk93 3y ago
    I’ll endorse one - been using Airalo for a few years, works great. I prefer using that app to finding someone at the airport to buy a SIM card from.
    - zarzavat 3y ago
      It’s very expensive though, compared to a local SIM. It’s not really a replacement for local SIMs, it’s more like a good international roaming plan from your home country, more convenience at a higher cost.
      - ericpauley 3y ago
        Airalo is $5 for Europe for a week. I can’t imagine any savings over that that would outweigh the convenience…
        Vibgyor5 3y ago
        Its all relative — I paid $10 for a month in Germany as a resident (comes with full EU roaming). Prices in other EU countries are even cheaper. It took 1 minute to plug it in. Also, travelers from Western countries might not really be ecstatic about paying for paying $$ for something that comes with zero upside to physical SIM.
benkruger 3y ago
I have been using eSIMS's for years while traveling. The Internet is unlocked for my entire family for next to nothing. The prices get less expensive every year as well. IMO. The idea of a phone number is antiquated and I suspect we'll see accelerated movement with a digital identity that you can attach to a stored value to get data for competitive rates.
londons_explore 3y ago
The dream of esim is great. The reality not so much. I tried it a few months ago and found: * Scanning the QR code to install the esim requires internet - it can't activate the sim card to get internet unless it already has internet. Seems like a bit of an oversight! * Once provisioned, the mobile network doesn't actually activate your account for a few hours. Kinda takes away the benefit of 'one click and go'. * The phone is hardcoded to only support 4G via esim, although the phone itself supports 5G if you use a physical sim on the same mobile network. Nobody on the forums has managed to make it work. * If you damage the phone, there is no way to transfer the esim to a new phone. I assumed it would transfer over automatically as part of backup/restore, either via cable or cloud backup, but no. * The mobile network has no ability to transfer the sim over either. Apparently their software doesn't allow it. The only way is to transfer to a physical sim, wait for it to arrive, then mark the physical sim as lost, and then reorder an esim. Great - that takes 4 days, during which you have no service. Most of these flaws are problems with the mobile network's policies and processes. But some are with the esim spec (not allowing backup/restore, not having enough info in the QR code to connect to a network without internet). Overall, esims have so far caused me hours of frustration and little benefit.
- ezfe 3y ago
  You've already acknowledged that most of the issues you encountered are specific to your phone or carrier. For example, eSIM works fine with 5G on iPhones and in my experience there is no delay to activate an account. I've set up multiple phones on eSIMs and never experienced something like that. Regarding backing up, yes it would be nice if you could backup your eSIM alongside the rest of your phone contents, however the real solution is just making it easy to provision a new eSIM. In my experience, if I need a new eSIM I just open the carrier app and reinstall it to the phone.
  - wux 3y ago
    I think they've got a fair point, though, that a number of those issues with the eSIM reflect reliance on factors outside their control (for example, whether or not one's carrier has competent backend systems) where before swapping a SIM card was a physical action within their control. It's a frustrating feeling when a new technology takes something out of your hands in the name of convenience but, far from being seamless, actually introduces problems that are entirely out of your hands to fix.
Vibgyor5 3y ago
As a digital nomad + business traveler, eSims are total misdirection and more cumbersome experience: Case in point - I stay in Country A (home country) for 3 months, Country B for 2 months, and then C for 3 months, back to A. Until now I used an Android with Dual-SIM (physical) and all I had to do was: put in physical-SIM whenever I am in and call it a day. With iPhone and more and more phone manufacturers praising about eSIMs, not anymore. Country B/C/D etc may have extremely complex or underwhelming infrastructure/process to support e-SIMs. Lots of issues with “network reception not working” to troubleshooting the signup process. Heck, there are additional charges in some countries for eSIM vs. physical sim.
- jrmg 3y ago
  Is your complaint that activation is troublesome and bureaucratic? Isn't that also true with physical SIMs? With eSIM, you should be able to just have all three eSIMs stored on the phone, marking the one you want to use as active, and switching whenever you want, with no need to carry around physical bits of plastic any more. This has been my experience with my iPhone 13 when traveling.
  - joecool1029 3y ago
    > Is your complaint that activation is troublesome and bureaucratic? Isn't that also true with physical SIMs? No? Normally SIM card activated by carrier before sending to you, like a cable/satellite card would be. It just works when you put it in devices, can be swapped around between devices without a secondary internet connection. Same if you buy prepaid sim at a store, many countries you can just buy and activate at checkout, then put in phone, no carrier helper apps needed. > With eSIM, you should be bale to just have all three eSims stored on the phone, marking the one you want to use as active, and switching whenever you want, with no need to carry around physical bits of plastic any more. If wanting to change devices you need an internet connection and hope activation app/site isn't down, call on the phone to manually transfer (which requires a working phone service), or go into a store. Many carriers will not activate eSIM devices they don't recognize the IMEI of. The situation is only fairly seamless currently with iPhone in the US, most international carriers don't support the automatic iPhone transfer stuff. It's kind of a mess everywhere else on Android.
joshstrange 3y ago
The think I hate most about eSIM is we kept around the idea of SIM locking (EUICC lock, also referred to as "carrier visibility" or "carrier reveal"). I bought a bunch of refurbished/renewed iPads for my business and 7 of them were EUICC locked to AT&T. You could put any physical SIM in the iPad and it would work but it would not let you use a non-AT&T eSIM. AT&T refused to talk to me unless I had an account with them, I did, and then told me those iPads were not in their system, there was nothing they could do, and I should see about returning them and getting new/replacement ones. I spent multiple hours on the phone and on their support forums and got nowhere (over the span of 2-3+ weeks). Finally I filed an FCC complaint and the issue was fully resolved in 3 days. FCC/CFPB complaints are great tools to use and I recommend reaching for them sooner rather than later. I have examples of being jerked around by companies for a period of weeks or longer and then the issue being fully resolved in a matter of days after filing a complaint. It's my new "complain on twitter to get better/faster service".
- jwong_ 3y ago
  Do you have details on what kind of complaint you filed? I have an iPhone with a similar problem -- physical SIMs work with any carrier. However, T-mobile ESIM is the only one I've been able to get work. T-mobile insists the phone has no lock and tells me to go to Apple. Apple tells me to go to T-mobile. End result is I can't activate any ESIMs outside of T-mobile's.
  - joshstrange 3y ago
    Yes, it was a little tricky since there wasn't a clear path. Here is what I did: 1. Go here https://consumercomplaints.fcc.gov/hc/en-us/requests/new?ticket_form_id=39744 https://consumercomplaints.fcc.gov/hc/en-us/requests/new?tic... 2. Phone Issues: Availability 3. Phone Availability Sub Issue: No Service Available 4. Your Phone Method: Wireless (cell phone/other mobile device) The rest of the fields should be self-explanatory. I mentioned EUICC lock in my description and a few days later I got a call from AT&T and then a few days after that it was fixed.
    - 3y ago
kevincox 3y ago
The main problem with eSIM is that they are still little HSM modules controlled by the carrier. This results in most of the problems that people are complaining about in this thread. 1. You can't swap the SIM yourself because the HSM is designed not to reveal the secrets. 2. You can't provision offline because the carrier needs to encrypt the payload to the target HSM. In theory I guess if the target phone was known it could be provisioned once and uploaded repeated (for fast eSIM swapping between different SIMs in the same device). But there may also be some form of replay protection. What I would like to see is that the eSIM is just a config file with connection info and credentials. Then the device itself is in charge of connecting, sharing and whatever else. The user is in control and can transfer or swap as they see fit. The downside would be that this data is easier to steal if it isn't in a TPM but no one said that you couldn't put it into a TPM. It is just user choice now. For example the keys could be uploaded to the TPM much like today. Or it could be encrypted with a TPM key and stored on the device (this would allow easily changing eSIMs or transferring between devices). You could even do things like escrow a copy to a trusted backup location so that you can restore the eSIM to a new phone if you lose or break the old phone. (Although you may need to revoke the old creds if they are at-risk of being stolen from the old device.) The carrier should be a dumb pipe. I don't like how much control they have over my hardware.
- NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
  What does "HSM" stand for?
  - joecool1029 3y ago
    Hardware Security Module. Basically an embedded device that stores cryptographic keys and performs cryptographic operations (like encrypting/decrypting/signing). EDIT: HN is throttling me for responding too quickly so I'm responding to the comment below this. eSIM uses UICC hardware, not unlike a cryptographic smartcard (think PIV or OpenPGP smartcards). It's built upon the same kind of cards as physical UICC (SIM) cards are. You have a CPU, some memory, and the ability to store applets usually written in java. Where eSIM/eUICC is different is it is an implementation of downloadable SIM profiles. The standard does allow for, and there are physical removable eSIM's made. The phone controls profiles on them using apdu commands at the low-leve: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_card_application_protocol_data_unit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_card_application_protoco... . Check my prior comments on the matter.
notmypenguin 3y ago
esim = yuck. I abhor the notion. Very political direction to hijack us all.
jaclaz 3y ago
Sorry to be the (usual) pessimist, but with a physical SIM, if your phone breaks, you can take the SIM and put in another phone (a spare one, a borrowed one), with the eSIM, this becomes complex or impossible: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32138466 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32138466
- mikelward 3y ago
  With Vodafone UK, you just scan the same QR code they originally sent you. Might be different for different carriers.
  - jaclaz 3y ago
    Yes, very likely carriers (and phone manufacturers) are in the process of making the transfer easier, but it remains more complex than a physical SIM. I wonder how the "same QR code" might work, I mean, let's say you have your e-sim on your phone, and someone steals the original QR code, if all is needed is to scan it, then the thief could "install" your e-sim to another phone, there must be something else in the procedure to guarantee the de-activation on your phone and allow the transfer, the point is if it is doable with the old phone not functioning.
- zoky 3y ago
  Having done exactly that, I can tell you that your information is not accurate. The damaged iPhone was completely unusable, and I had no trouble transferring the eSIM to an older spare iPhone. There was no need to touch any approval message on my old phone.
  - jaclaz 3y ago
    Maybe the procedure has changed, or has changed in some cases, definitely the Apple support page text I quoted was changed, still: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212780 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212780 >3. Check for instructions on your previous iPhone to confirm the transfer. To confirm, tap Transfer or, if asked for a verification code, enter the code that's displayed on your new iPhone.
saos 3y ago
My main line is physical sim and my burner is an eSim. It's been great!
nottorp 3y ago
I don't understand the enthusiasm about esims. Is the US cell phone market more predatory than i thought? Around here, as long as the phone isn't locked to a carrier [1], you just swap the physical sim and have new service. With the esim you suddenly need the phone manufacturer's approval. Perhaps masked as a software incompatibility. Swaps take hours to days. What is the advantage to the customer here? [1] And carriers are required to unlock your phone for a nominal fee when the contract period ends.
- afavour 3y ago
  To me the advantage of eSIM is coupled with dual SIMs, something that wasn't very common in the US until the arrival of eSIM. Now when traveling I can purchase an eSIM instead of pay my operator a ton of roaming fees. But I can still keep my main SIM active, just with data disabled. It's not that any of this was impossible without eSIMs but it's created a new market of online-only SIM sellers. Before eSIMs I'd have to be without data when I first arrived somewhere new while I buy a local PAYG SIM. Don't have to worry about that any more. > What is the advantage to the customer here? Outside of dual SIM applications I don't think it's a whole lot more complicated than online retail being considerably more convenient than in-person. When switching providers you often have to time it correctly: make sure the plan is expiring on your old SIM when you put in the new one. Having a SIM arrive instantly makes that a lot easier. Plus it's just a lot easier to make a spontaneous purchase.
- avgDev 3y ago
  I recently traveled to Poland. Instead of paying T-Mobile like $50 for limited data and minutes, I bought Orange prepaid plan. I did not have to visit a physical store and it cost me about $5. I landed. Opened the app. Got the esim and was on my way. I then could alternate between sims easily. I imagine if I had to travel between other continents same steps would apply. Cell service is quite expensive in the US.
  - nottorp 3y ago
    ... you could have picked a sim at the airport couldn't you? I have to point out that my question still stands. The only ones speaking in favour of esims seem to be USers traveling abroad.
jrmg 3y ago
eSIM has been working great for me when traveling to the UK and Canada from the USA. I have an iPhone 13, which allows up to two eSIMs or one physical SIM and one eSIM to be active simultaneously. The first time I did this, my primary account was a T-Mobile Connect SIM that didn't allow out of USA roaming. By the second time, I'd transferred to a Boost Mobile eSIM, which, again, doesn't allow out of USA roaming. When traveling I just bought a data eSIM from a random provider ('BNE' and 'GlobaleSIM'). They have different pricing for varying combinations of data vs. time - a fixed amount per day, a fixed amount with a month time limit, a fixed amount with no time limit etc. They're very cheap compared to how things used to be (I think I paid about $15 for 3GB over two weeks in the UK, and $9 for 1GB of data with no time limit in Canada). One thing I did not expect is that my US number kept working! With WiFi calling switched on, the non-roaming T-Mobile and Boost accounts just kept working by using VoIP over the data SIM's internet connection.
BigBalli 3y ago
eSIMs are a great invention. I had been swapping SIM cards for decades and life is so much better now. I can receive messages on both numbers and when I travel abroad I simply toggle between them as primary.
_nalply 3y ago
This all is a huge boondoggle to keep telcos afloat. I don't understand why cell phones just connect to the internet and then have all services. Phone numbers as an identification? Meh.
klausa 3y ago
One interesting thing that eSIMs enable is geographical arbitrage by the carriers. When I was visiting South Korea last year, the (cheap enough) eSIM I got from one of those "buy sims for your travel!" services was actually from a carrier from Hong Kong. Similarly, when I visited Japan this year, the eSIM I got was from a South Korean carrier. Can't do that if you need a physical SIM!
- dzhiurgis 3y ago
  “Wifi calling” is pretty cool if your operator supports and you got 2 sims.
  - hattmall 3y ago
    Can you explain what you mean by this?
    - lozenge 3y ago
      Wifi calling sends calls (sent and received) over the Internet as UDP packets. So you can call somebody in your home country using your home country SIM, but the data is actually using your holiday SIM's data allowance. As roaming and "international" rates are crazy.
      - NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
        Just to clarify: WiFi calling uses an 802.11 connection nearby, instead of a cell tower, and sends UDP packets over the WiFi network. (I don't know how far they transit the Internet; I assumed that they went to your mobile provider and entered the PSTN there.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_Access_Network https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_Access_Network In this scenario, your "home country SIM" is providing you a phone number and provider's authorization to activate and use WiFi calling, but your voice calls aren't actually using the SIM or a cell tower. Neither is your "holiday SIM" using data for this call: you're free to use that data allowance for browsing, streaming, general Internet use; it won't be taken up by phone calls.
Scalene2 3y ago
Guess this is the end of having 8 SIM cards on a dual SIM phone with one of those really cool adapters. www.simore.com
- smoovb 3y ago
  And the start of naming your 8 eSIMs meaningful descriptive identifiers.
spiralpolitik 3y ago
No issues with eSIM on my end. I switched my number as soon as it was supported 3-4 iPhones ago and have migrated it myself between devices on each upgrade with no issues. Similar for my iPads. No issues moving eSIM between iPads on upgrade. Traveling has also been super easy. I use the app to provision an eSim for the country I'm going to and activate it just after I land or via the plane WiFi if available. The main issue with eSIM at the moment seems to be at the VMO level. A lot of VMOs don't offer eSIM because their parent carrier won't allow it. This is probably an area for the regulators to look into to make sure that the market stays competitive.
Isolus 3y ago
I find it inconvenient that pluggable eSIMS are so hard to get. In my opinion they combine the best of both worlds. You can download profiles without wating for SIM cards and you can put them in different phones.
- joecool1029 3y ago
  Just exchange a slightly unreasonable about of money for a esim.me card. They can be managed on most Android devices and swapped even into a featurephone (read my comment before this though for some potential caveats).
joecool1029 3y ago
This article mostly doesn't apply to the US market. Let me explain. There's two kinds of lock-in possible with eSIM devices. The first is the standard carrier subsidy lock that AT&T and T-Mobile do with phones sold through them. Verizon doesn't do this due to the old agreement to buy Band 13 spectrum. This is what most people understand, and while it's pretty easy to just ask to have the phone unlocked by the carrier, most won't do this. The other kind of lock-in AT&T and Verizon do, but T-Mobile does not. This is relating specifically to ESIM (euicc) and it being paired to 'approved' IMEI numbers. AT&T runs IMEI whitelists that only allow devices they sell to be used on the network and these lists also contain what technologies it's allowed to access. Verizon has an approved device list, but I believe their physical SIM cards will work in any phone with band support and voLTE profiles available, much better situation since they've gone CDMAless. What they will not allow for eSIM is activation using just the EID number of the ESIM itself. They maintain a database of devices with eSIM and what the matching IMEI is supposed to be. If you have a device not in that list, it won't activate. The standard explicitly mentions that collecting the IMEI is optional for activation: https://www.gsma.com/esim/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/SGP.22-v2.3.pdf https://www.gsma.com/esim/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/SGP.22-... (page 115) I have a device called an esim.me. They are kind of expensive but it will give you support for up to eSIM profiles on a removable card (like an 'normal' SIM card, but it's a smartcard that supports flipping through these profiles). In the US it's only currently possible to activate these using T-Mobile, and unless you use an eSIM iphone or a specific model of Samsung phone, you have to call support and give them the EID number to activate it. I can then physically swap this 'esim' between my devices, anything that supports USIM (basically 3G and later devices, even old featurephone from 2007 it works in).
- masfuerte 3y ago
  You have a typo: "support for up to eSIM profiles on a removable card". How many? Great comment though
  - KingFelix 3y ago
    15!
perfmode 3y ago
I’ve had great experiences using Airalo in Europe. Just download the iOS app, buy a 50 GB plan on a regional Euro eSim, and install the eSim. That’s it. Seamless roaming across NL, DE, AT, CZ, CH.
opello 3y ago
Are we ever going to be able to disambiguate embedded and electronic SIM devices?
squarefoot 3y ago
In theory eSIMs are great, in practice they could make another surface of attack if a malicious app sneakily installs an eSIM that charges the user like 100 bucks for a 1 minute call. Social engineering might also be used to lure elderly and less technical users into accepting shady contracts, where a technical relative asked to physically installing the SIM could have spotted the scam.
hakfoo 3y ago
I just don't see what problem eSIM solves aside from the "must be thinner/more seamless" non-problem. I suppose there might be some corner-cases-- super-travelers, spammers, certain types of devs and network engineers, where being able to have a thick stack of emulated SIM cards and toggling between them would be valuable, but I'm pretty sure they sold devices to do that with physical cards back in the day. What I do see is a bunch of interesting new failure modes, and the ability for the carrier to get in between me and changing devices. They're going to want to turn "Put in the little pin and pop out the card" into something that involves paying $30 for the generation of a QR code.
- smoovb 3y ago
  All depends on what problem you value. If you do any kind of international travel the value is clear. If you care about waste and manufacture of an unnecessary product the value is clear.
  - hakfoo 3y ago
    I always figured physical SIMs were still preferrable for travel. You can largely handle them unattended-- buy it from a kiosk or even a vending machine, and swap it without worry about having to bootstrap connectivity to a provisioning website or whether the carrier and device are willing to do the eSIM dance. On the other hand, I'm actually surprised we don't see more carriers using better international roaming as a teaser to get people to buy more expensive plans too. The last time I went abroad (to the UK), my US T-mobile plan just worked for slow data, sufficient to Skype home (they said voice calls would be 25 cents per minute).
perryizgr8 3y ago
Esim is yet another way the big monopolies (tech and telecom) are taking more and more control away from the paying customer. The situation is very similar to when Apple and later others removed the headphone jack from phones. No customer would be happy with the change. Some might be ambivalent, others annoyed. But they still did it just so Apple could build a billion dollar ear pods market. Physical SIMs provide way too much power to the customer. They can change phones and numbers without involving the carrier or phone manufacturer. It's only logical that this last vestige of control be taken away too.
mikelward 3y ago
Disappointingly, ASUS's premium Zenfone 10 doesn't have eSIM. Though it does have dual SIM.
everdrive 3y ago
I don’t really understand what eSIM is. Does it act _just like_ a SIM card, but is software rather than a physical card? Does it modify how the phone acts on the network? For instance, if I put a Canadian SIM in my phone, I’ll probably be roaming. I’d have a local (eg: Verizon, AT&T, etc.) mobile ISP IP range, but be roaming from the provider perspective? Or, would I show up as coming from the Canadian mobile ISP’s network?
- fatfingerd 3y ago
  An eSIM is just a SIM but pre-embedded in the phone so the carrier can't provision a key inside a new SIM and then send it to you, they have to interactively and remotely setup their trust in a key in your non removable SIM. There's not really any advantage AFA networks, etc, but it may be harder to GEO-restrict a software process than where you are willing to mail a new physical SIM, and of course it will be possible to support a lot more eSIM profiles simultaneously without the physical issues of trying to add bays for traditional SIMs that should be physically distinct if provisioned by different carriers.
smoovb 3y ago
Much of the eSIM dislike on this thread misses several points: * eSIM for travel vs eSIM for home use are completely different use cases. * US, Canada and other carrier from other countries severely hamper the experience by charging for QR codes, physical delivery, IMEI requirements and carrier locking. * Most handsets can have multiple eSIMs installed (I have 10 with one active) giving you carrier flexibility not previously possible. * With VoLTE or WiFi Calling your home number works like a VOIP number anywhere in the world. In this case you may only need a data only eSIM, where KYC requirements are reduced and options are plentiful.

144 points by signa11 3y ago

eSIMs can also make it easier to switch phones. Want to try a different OS? Going hiking and don't want to risk your nice phone? Traveling? A great thing about this is you can have multiple phones preconfigured for specific purposes and just move the line to the phone when needed. On one carrier, moving between phones takes a minute or two. I eventually switched to Android from iOS after setting up one of each and switching between them.

adrianmsmith 3y ago
Surely this is the same with real SIMs? I mean, assuming you have the "SIM tool" available, you can move the SIM from one phone to another in a minute or so?
- daggersandscars 3y ago
  The time I tried this in with my previous carrier with a smartphone, I had to call the cellular provider and get the phone "authorized" before it would work. I don't know if this was specific to the carrier, specific to the phone, or to the era (~10 years ago). With my current carrier, switching physical SIMs does not activate the phone on the service. I have to use an app. Perhaps this is because I use an MVNO? eSIMs make this easier. I had no problem swapping SIMs for basic phone service in the pre-smartphone era.
  - daveoc64 3y ago
    These pros and cons you list are all down to policies that a carrier may enact. With a physical SIM, they can't stop you putting it into another phone, and there are no good technical reasons why you shouldn't be able to swap a SIM into a compatible phone and have it work immediately. That's how it's worked in many countries since GSM came out in the 90s. With eSIMs, you may need to contact the carrier to transfer the SIM to a new device. This is a contact point with the carrier - and one where they can add barriers or fees.
  - ezfe 3y ago
    While I am an eSIM proponent, what you're describing could happen with eSIMs as well and is unrelated to the format of the SIM. For example, I use AT&T and before eSIM I could transfer my physical SIM between phones without calling AT&T. Now, with eSIM I can still transfer my eSIM between phones without calling AT&T so nothing has really changed.
    - devilbunny 3y ago
      Can you transfer it between phones if one of them isn't working? This is an issue I have actually faced in the past that was no problem at all with a physical SIM. If I'm outside the US, my phone dies/is crushed, and I need to be back up and working: right now, I just pull my backup phone out of my bag, put the SIM in (assuming it isn't crushed or dead), and within a few minutes, I'm back up and running. If I have to go find WiFi to be able to get to Verizon's website to start the eSIM process, that's much more of a challenge. No 2FA because... my phone's dead and I can't get a text. No Verizon stores to show them the corpse of my old phone. If there were some way to pre-transfer the eSIM and only activate it if needed, it might be a different story.
      - ezfe 3y ago
        Not sure about AT&T because I've never done it, but with Visible (another phone in my family) I can login to the app and install a new eSIM again. It really does depend on carrier policy I would say
        devilbunny 3y ago
        Thanks. Apparently you can do this on Verizon as well. Still need WiFi, but that's not usually a nightmare. Glad I don't like traveling in the boonies, though.
    - rawgabbit 3y ago
      I am on ATT and have been reluctant to switch to eSIM. Is there any gotchas I should watch out for?
Sylamore 3y ago
I was doing the same thing with physical SIMs for over a decade before eSIMs even existed. I even could use SIM trays to make the same one fit in different form factors.

kotaKat 3y ago

Meanwhile, small/private operators can't even leverage eSIM. We're trying to run a CBRS-based LTE deployment in-house and can't find a single company willing to work with us to get eSIM provisioning capabilities because we can't just make eSIMs like we can physical ones -- thanks to eSIM's fairly obtuse cryptogatekeeping by the GSMA, we can't do anything without their blessings. Every single company that we've found that claims to do small-scale eSIM personalization/SM-DP/etc services just... won't answer our sales forms. Monogoto, Teal, Globalgig, Smartjac... nobody. EDIT: To note, of course, if we were willing to spend tens of thousands directly with a manufacturer or company that actually does this stuff for a living (selling the whole core/radios/etc) I'm sure they'd bend over backwards, but we know how to deploy open5gs and buy eNodeBs that work in our system and deploy them as-is (up to and including abusing former Pollen Mobile gear) -- we already have a dozen or so devices on via physical SIM in our office.

KingFelix 3y ago
Kotakat!! I attempted to ping you on discord but it wouldn't let me. I found your discord posts super helpful with Pollen gear! Thank you for that. I might be able to help with esims, asking someone right now. Are you doing data only? or ims too?

deleted 3y ago

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2143 3y ago

What if I go abroad for a few days and need a temporary SIM from there, but my phone only supports eSIM? With eSIM there's a tighter coupling between the phone and carrier. Not sure if I like that. > Apple’s move to make eSIM the only option for iPhone 14 range in the U.S. is propelling the worldwide shift towards eSIM technology. Speaking of which, I know for a fact that the iPhone 14 sold in India has a SIM card slot (eSIM also supported).

ericpauley 3y ago
There are companies (won’t endorse any in particular) that will let you buy data eSIMs for virtually any country. They can be downloaded before you leave or using airport WiFi, and usually activate automatically when you arrive.
- adeelk93 3y ago
  I’ll endorse one - been using Airalo for a few years, works great. I prefer using that app to finding someone at the airport to buy a SIM card from.
  - zarzavat 3y ago
    It’s very expensive though, compared to a local SIM. It’s not really a replacement for local SIMs, it’s more like a good international roaming plan from your home country, more convenience at a higher cost.
    - ericpauley 3y ago
      Airalo is $5 for Europe for a week. I can’t imagine any savings over that that would outweigh the convenience…
      - Vibgyor5 3y ago
        Its all relative — I paid $10 for a month in Germany as a resident (comes with full EU roaming). Prices in other EU countries are even cheaper. It took 1 minute to plug it in. Also, travelers from Western countries might not really be ecstatic about paying for paying $$ for something that comes with zero upside to physical SIM.

benkruger 3y ago

I have been using eSIMS's for years while traveling. The Internet is unlocked for my entire family for next to nothing. The prices get less expensive every year as well. IMO. The idea of a phone number is antiquated and I suspect we'll see accelerated movement with a digital identity that you can attach to a stored value to get data for competitive rates.

londons_explore 3y ago

The dream of esim is great. The reality not so much. I tried it a few months ago and found: * Scanning the QR code to install the esim requires internet - it can't activate the sim card to get internet unless it already has internet. Seems like a bit of an oversight! * Once provisioned, the mobile network doesn't actually activate your account for a few hours. Kinda takes away the benefit of 'one click and go'. * The phone is hardcoded to only support 4G via esim, although the phone itself supports 5G if you use a physical sim on the same mobile network. Nobody on the forums has managed to make it work. * If you damage the phone, there is no way to transfer the esim to a new phone. I assumed it would transfer over automatically as part of backup/restore, either via cable or cloud backup, but no. * The mobile network has no ability to transfer the sim over either. Apparently their software doesn't allow it. The only way is to transfer to a physical sim, wait for it to arrive, then mark the physical sim as lost, and then reorder an esim. Great - that takes 4 days, during which you have no service. Most of these flaws are problems with the mobile network's policies and processes. But some are with the esim spec (not allowing backup/restore, not having enough info in the QR code to connect to a network without internet). Overall, esims have so far caused me hours of frustration and little benefit.

ezfe 3y ago
You've already acknowledged that most of the issues you encountered are specific to your phone or carrier. For example, eSIM works fine with 5G on iPhones and in my experience there is no delay to activate an account. I've set up multiple phones on eSIMs and never experienced something like that. Regarding backing up, yes it would be nice if you could backup your eSIM alongside the rest of your phone contents, however the real solution is just making it easy to provision a new eSIM. In my experience, if I need a new eSIM I just open the carrier app and reinstall it to the phone.
- wux 3y ago
  I think they've got a fair point, though, that a number of those issues with the eSIM reflect reliance on factors outside their control (for example, whether or not one's carrier has competent backend systems) where before swapping a SIM card was a physical action within their control. It's a frustrating feeling when a new technology takes something out of your hands in the name of convenience but, far from being seamless, actually introduces problems that are entirely out of your hands to fix.

Vibgyor5 3y ago

As a digital nomad + business traveler, eSims are total misdirection and more cumbersome experience: Case in point - I stay in Country A (home country) for 3 months, Country B for 2 months, and then C for 3 months, back to A. Until now I used an Android with Dual-SIM (physical) and all I had to do was: put in physical-SIM whenever I am in and call it a day. With iPhone and more and more phone manufacturers praising about eSIMs, not anymore. Country B/C/D etc may have extremely complex or underwhelming infrastructure/process to support e-SIMs. Lots of issues with “network reception not working” to troubleshooting the signup process. Heck, there are additional charges in some countries for eSIM vs. physical sim.

jrmg 3y ago
Is your complaint that activation is troublesome and bureaucratic? Isn't that also true with physical SIMs? With eSIM, you should be able to just have all three eSIMs stored on the phone, marking the one you want to use as active, and switching whenever you want, with no need to carry around physical bits of plastic any more. This has been my experience with my iPhone 13 when traveling.
- joecool1029 3y ago
  > Is your complaint that activation is troublesome and bureaucratic? Isn't that also true with physical SIMs? No? Normally SIM card activated by carrier before sending to you, like a cable/satellite card would be. It just works when you put it in devices, can be swapped around between devices without a secondary internet connection. Same if you buy prepaid sim at a store, many countries you can just buy and activate at checkout, then put in phone, no carrier helper apps needed. > With eSIM, you should be bale to just have all three eSims stored on the phone, marking the one you want to use as active, and switching whenever you want, with no need to carry around physical bits of plastic any more. If wanting to change devices you need an internet connection and hope activation app/site isn't down, call on the phone to manually transfer (which requires a working phone service), or go into a store. Many carriers will not activate eSIM devices they don't recognize the IMEI of. The situation is only fairly seamless currently with iPhone in the US, most international carriers don't support the automatic iPhone transfer stuff. It's kind of a mess everywhere else on Android.

joshstrange 3y ago

The think I hate most about eSIM is we kept around the idea of SIM locking (EUICC lock, also referred to as "carrier visibility" or "carrier reveal"). I bought a bunch of refurbished/renewed iPads for my business and 7 of them were EUICC locked to AT&T. You could put any physical SIM in the iPad and it would work but it would not let you use a non-AT&T eSIM. AT&T refused to talk to me unless I had an account with them, I did, and then told me those iPads were not in their system, there was nothing they could do, and I should see about returning them and getting new/replacement ones. I spent multiple hours on the phone and on their support forums and got nowhere (over the span of 2-3+ weeks). Finally I filed an FCC complaint and the issue was fully resolved in 3 days. FCC/CFPB complaints are great tools to use and I recommend reaching for them sooner rather than later. I have examples of being jerked around by companies for a period of weeks or longer and then the issue being fully resolved in a matter of days after filing a complaint. It's my new "complain on twitter to get better/faster service".

jwong_ 3y ago
Do you have details on what kind of complaint you filed? I have an iPhone with a similar problem -- physical SIMs work with any carrier. However, T-mobile ESIM is the only one I've been able to get work. T-mobile insists the phone has no lock and tells me to go to Apple. Apple tells me to go to T-mobile. End result is I can't activate any ESIMs outside of T-mobile's.
- joshstrange 3y ago
  Yes, it was a little tricky since there wasn't a clear path. Here is what I did: 1. Go here https://consumercomplaints.fcc.gov/hc/en-us/requests/new?ticket_form_id=39744 https://consumercomplaints.fcc.gov/hc/en-us/requests/new?tic... 2. Phone Issues: Availability 3. Phone Availability Sub Issue: No Service Available 4. Your Phone Method: Wireless (cell phone/other mobile device) The rest of the fields should be self-explanatory. I mentioned EUICC lock in my description and a few days later I got a call from AT&T and then a few days after that it was fixed.
  - 3y ago

kevincox 3y ago

The main problem with eSIM is that they are still little HSM modules controlled by the carrier. This results in most of the problems that people are complaining about in this thread. 1. You can't swap the SIM yourself because the HSM is designed not to reveal the secrets. 2. You can't provision offline because the carrier needs to encrypt the payload to the target HSM. In theory I guess if the target phone was known it could be provisioned once and uploaded repeated (for fast eSIM swapping between different SIMs in the same device). But there may also be some form of replay protection. What I would like to see is that the eSIM is just a config file with connection info and credentials. Then the device itself is in charge of connecting, sharing and whatever else. The user is in control and can transfer or swap as they see fit. The downside would be that this data is easier to steal if it isn't in a TPM but no one said that you couldn't put it into a TPM. It is just user choice now. For example the keys could be uploaded to the TPM much like today. Or it could be encrypted with a TPM key and stored on the device (this would allow easily changing eSIMs or transferring between devices). You could even do things like escrow a copy to a trusted backup location so that you can restore the eSIM to a new phone if you lose or break the old phone. (Although you may need to revoke the old creds if they are at-risk of being stolen from the old device.) The carrier should be a dumb pipe. I don't like how much control they have over my hardware.

NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
What does "HSM" stand for?
- joecool1029 3y ago
  Hardware Security Module. Basically an embedded device that stores cryptographic keys and performs cryptographic operations (like encrypting/decrypting/signing). EDIT: HN is throttling me for responding too quickly so I'm responding to the comment below this. eSIM uses UICC hardware, not unlike a cryptographic smartcard (think PIV or OpenPGP smartcards). It's built upon the same kind of cards as physical UICC (SIM) cards are. You have a CPU, some memory, and the ability to store applets usually written in java. Where eSIM/eUICC is different is it is an implementation of downloadable SIM profiles. The standard does allow for, and there are physical removable eSIM's made. The phone controls profiles on them using apdu commands at the low-leve: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_card_application_protocol_data_unit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_card_application_protoco... . Check my prior comments on the matter.

notmypenguin 3y ago

esim = yuck. I abhor the notion. Very political direction to hijack us all.

jaclaz 3y ago

Sorry to be the (usual) pessimist, but with a physical SIM, if your phone breaks, you can take the SIM and put in another phone (a spare one, a borrowed one), with the eSIM, this becomes complex or impossible: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32138466 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32138466

mikelward 3y ago
With Vodafone UK, you just scan the same QR code they originally sent you. Might be different for different carriers.
- jaclaz 3y ago
  Yes, very likely carriers (and phone manufacturers) are in the process of making the transfer easier, but it remains more complex than a physical SIM. I wonder how the "same QR code" might work, I mean, let's say you have your e-sim on your phone, and someone steals the original QR code, if all is needed is to scan it, then the thief could "install" your e-sim to another phone, there must be something else in the procedure to guarantee the de-activation on your phone and allow the transfer, the point is if it is doable with the old phone not functioning.
zoky 3y ago
Having done exactly that, I can tell you that your information is not accurate. The damaged iPhone was completely unusable, and I had no trouble transferring the eSIM to an older spare iPhone. There was no need to touch any approval message on my old phone.
- jaclaz 3y ago
  Maybe the procedure has changed, or has changed in some cases, definitely the Apple support page text I quoted was changed, still: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212780 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212780 >3. Check for instructions on your previous iPhone to confirm the transfer. To confirm, tap Transfer or, if asked for a verification code, enter the code that's displayed on your new iPhone.

saos 3y ago

My main line is physical sim and my burner is an eSim. It's been great!

nottorp 3y ago

I don't understand the enthusiasm about esims. Is the US cell phone market more predatory than i thought? Around here, as long as the phone isn't locked to a carrier [1], you just swap the physical sim and have new service. With the esim you suddenly need the phone manufacturer's approval. Perhaps masked as a software incompatibility. Swaps take hours to days. What is the advantage to the customer here? [1] And carriers are required to unlock your phone for a nominal fee when the contract period ends.

afavour 3y ago
To me the advantage of eSIM is coupled with dual SIMs, something that wasn't very common in the US until the arrival of eSIM. Now when traveling I can purchase an eSIM instead of pay my operator a ton of roaming fees. But I can still keep my main SIM active, just with data disabled. It's not that any of this was impossible without eSIMs but it's created a new market of online-only SIM sellers. Before eSIMs I'd have to be without data when I first arrived somewhere new while I buy a local PAYG SIM. Don't have to worry about that any more. > What is the advantage to the customer here? Outside of dual SIM applications I don't think it's a whole lot more complicated than online retail being considerably more convenient than in-person. When switching providers you often have to time it correctly: make sure the plan is expiring on your old SIM when you put in the new one. Having a SIM arrive instantly makes that a lot easier. Plus it's just a lot easier to make a spontaneous purchase.
avgDev 3y ago
I recently traveled to Poland. Instead of paying T-Mobile like $50 for limited data and minutes, I bought Orange prepaid plan. I did not have to visit a physical store and it cost me about $5. I landed. Opened the app. Got the esim and was on my way. I then could alternate between sims easily. I imagine if I had to travel between other continents same steps would apply. Cell service is quite expensive in the US.
- nottorp 3y ago
  ... you could have picked a sim at the airport couldn't you? I have to point out that my question still stands. The only ones speaking in favour of esims seem to be USers traveling abroad.

jrmg 3y ago

eSIM has been working great for me when traveling to the UK and Canada from the USA. I have an iPhone 13, which allows up to two eSIMs or one physical SIM and one eSIM to be active simultaneously. The first time I did this, my primary account was a T-Mobile Connect SIM that didn't allow out of USA roaming. By the second time, I'd transferred to a Boost Mobile eSIM, which, again, doesn't allow out of USA roaming. When traveling I just bought a data eSIM from a random provider ('BNE' and 'GlobaleSIM'). They have different pricing for varying combinations of data vs. time - a fixed amount per day, a fixed amount with a month time limit, a fixed amount with no time limit etc. They're very cheap compared to how things used to be (I think I paid about $15 for 3GB over two weeks in the UK, and $9 for 1GB of data with no time limit in Canada). One thing I did not expect is that my US number kept working! With WiFi calling switched on, the non-roaming T-Mobile and Boost accounts just kept working by using VoIP over the data SIM's internet connection.

BigBalli 3y ago

eSIMs are a great invention. I had been swapping SIM cards for decades and life is so much better now. I can receive messages on both numbers and when I travel abroad I simply toggle between them as primary.

_nalply 3y ago

This all is a huge boondoggle to keep telcos afloat. I don't understand why cell phones just connect to the internet and then have all services. Phone numbers as an identification? Meh.

klausa 3y ago

One interesting thing that eSIMs enable is geographical arbitrage by the carriers. When I was visiting South Korea last year, the (cheap enough) eSIM I got from one of those "buy sims for your travel!" services was actually from a carrier from Hong Kong. Similarly, when I visited Japan this year, the eSIM I got was from a South Korean carrier. Can't do that if you need a physical SIM!

dzhiurgis 3y ago
“Wifi calling” is pretty cool if your operator supports and you got 2 sims.
- hattmall 3y ago
  Can you explain what you mean by this?
  - lozenge 3y ago
    Wifi calling sends calls (sent and received) over the Internet as UDP packets. So you can call somebody in your home country using your home country SIM, but the data is actually using your holiday SIM's data allowance. As roaming and "international" rates are crazy.
    - NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
      Just to clarify: WiFi calling uses an 802.11 connection nearby, instead of a cell tower, and sends UDP packets over the WiFi network. (I don't know how far they transit the Internet; I assumed that they went to your mobile provider and entered the PSTN there.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_Access_Network https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_Access_Network In this scenario, your "home country SIM" is providing you a phone number and provider's authorization to activate and use WiFi calling, but your voice calls aren't actually using the SIM or a cell tower. Neither is your "holiday SIM" using data for this call: you're free to use that data allowance for browsing, streaming, general Internet use; it won't be taken up by phone calls.

Scalene2 3y ago

Guess this is the end of having 8 SIM cards on a dual SIM phone with one of those really cool adapters. www.simore.com

smoovb 3y ago
And the start of naming your 8 eSIMs meaningful descriptive identifiers.

spiralpolitik 3y ago

No issues with eSIM on my end. I switched my number as soon as it was supported 3-4 iPhones ago and have migrated it myself between devices on each upgrade with no issues. Similar for my iPads. No issues moving eSIM between iPads on upgrade. Traveling has also been super easy. I use the app to provision an eSim for the country I'm going to and activate it just after I land or via the plane WiFi if available. The main issue with eSIM at the moment seems to be at the VMO level. A lot of VMOs don't offer eSIM because their parent carrier won't allow it. This is probably an area for the regulators to look into to make sure that the market stays competitive.

Isolus 3y ago

I find it inconvenient that pluggable eSIMS are so hard to get. In my opinion they combine the best of both worlds. You can download profiles without wating for SIM cards and you can put them in different phones.

joecool1029 3y ago
Just exchange a slightly unreasonable about of money for a esim.me card. They can be managed on most Android devices and swapped even into a featurephone (read my comment before this though for some potential caveats).

joecool1029 3y ago

This article mostly doesn't apply to the US market. Let me explain. There's two kinds of lock-in possible with eSIM devices. The first is the standard carrier subsidy lock that AT&T and T-Mobile do with phones sold through them. Verizon doesn't do this due to the old agreement to buy Band 13 spectrum. This is what most people understand, and while it's pretty easy to just ask to have the phone unlocked by the carrier, most won't do this. The other kind of lock-in AT&T and Verizon do, but T-Mobile does not. This is relating specifically to ESIM (euicc) and it being paired to 'approved' IMEI numbers. AT&T runs IMEI whitelists that only allow devices they sell to be used on the network and these lists also contain what technologies it's allowed to access. Verizon has an approved device list, but I believe their physical SIM cards will work in any phone with band support and voLTE profiles available, much better situation since they've gone CDMAless. What they will not allow for eSIM is activation using just the EID number of the ESIM itself. They maintain a database of devices with eSIM and what the matching IMEI is supposed to be. If you have a device not in that list, it won't activate. The standard explicitly mentions that collecting the IMEI is optional for activation: https://www.gsma.com/esim/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/SGP.22-v2.3.pdf https://www.gsma.com/esim/wp-content/uploads/2021/07/SGP.22-... (page 115) I have a device called an esim.me. They are kind of expensive but it will give you support for up to eSIM profiles on a removable card (like an 'normal' SIM card, but it's a smartcard that supports flipping through these profiles). In the US it's only currently possible to activate these using T-Mobile, and unless you use an eSIM iphone or a specific model of Samsung phone, you have to call support and give them the EID number to activate it. I can then physically swap this 'esim' between my devices, anything that supports USIM (basically 3G and later devices, even old featurephone from 2007 it works in).

masfuerte 3y ago
You have a typo: "support for up to eSIM profiles on a removable card". How many? Great comment though
- KingFelix 3y ago
  15!

perfmode 3y ago

I’ve had great experiences using Airalo in Europe. Just download the iOS app, buy a 50 GB plan on a regional Euro eSim, and install the eSim. That’s it. Seamless roaming across NL, DE, AT, CZ, CH.

opello 3y ago

Are we ever going to be able to disambiguate embedded and electronic SIM devices?

squarefoot 3y ago

In theory eSIMs are great, in practice they could make another surface of attack if a malicious app sneakily installs an eSIM that charges the user like 100 bucks for a 1 minute call. Social engineering might also be used to lure elderly and less technical users into accepting shady contracts, where a technical relative asked to physically installing the SIM could have spotted the scam.

hakfoo 3y ago

I just don't see what problem eSIM solves aside from the "must be thinner/more seamless" non-problem. I suppose there might be some corner-cases-- super-travelers, spammers, certain types of devs and network engineers, where being able to have a thick stack of emulated SIM cards and toggling between them would be valuable, but I'm pretty sure they sold devices to do that with physical cards back in the day. What I do see is a bunch of interesting new failure modes, and the ability for the carrier to get in between me and changing devices. They're going to want to turn "Put in the little pin and pop out the card" into something that involves paying $30 for the generation of a QR code.

smoovb 3y ago
All depends on what problem you value. If you do any kind of international travel the value is clear. If you care about waste and manufacture of an unnecessary product the value is clear.
- hakfoo 3y ago
  I always figured physical SIMs were still preferrable for travel. You can largely handle them unattended-- buy it from a kiosk or even a vending machine, and swap it without worry about having to bootstrap connectivity to a provisioning website or whether the carrier and device are willing to do the eSIM dance. On the other hand, I'm actually surprised we don't see more carriers using better international roaming as a teaser to get people to buy more expensive plans too. The last time I went abroad (to the UK), my US T-mobile plan just worked for slow data, sufficient to Skype home (they said voice calls would be 25 cents per minute).

perryizgr8 3y ago

Esim is yet another way the big monopolies (tech and telecom) are taking more and more control away from the paying customer. The situation is very similar to when Apple and later others removed the headphone jack from phones. No customer would be happy with the change. Some might be ambivalent, others annoyed. But they still did it just so Apple could build a billion dollar ear pods market. Physical SIMs provide way too much power to the customer. They can change phones and numbers without involving the carrier or phone manufacturer. It's only logical that this last vestige of control be taken away too.

mikelward 3y ago

Disappointingly, ASUS's premium Zenfone 10 doesn't have eSIM. Though it does have dual SIM.

everdrive 3y ago

I don’t really understand what eSIM is. Does it act _just like_ a SIM card, but is software rather than a physical card? Does it modify how the phone acts on the network? For instance, if I put a Canadian SIM in my phone, I’ll probably be roaming. I’d have a local (eg: Verizon, AT&T, etc.) mobile ISP IP range, but be roaming from the provider perspective? Or, would I show up as coming from the Canadian mobile ISP’s network?

fatfingerd 3y ago
An eSIM is just a SIM but pre-embedded in the phone so the carrier can't provision a key inside a new SIM and then send it to you, they have to interactively and remotely setup their trust in a key in your non removable SIM. There's not really any advantage AFA networks, etc, but it may be harder to GEO-restrict a software process than where you are willing to mail a new physical SIM, and of course it will be possible to support a lot more eSIM profiles simultaneously without the physical issues of trying to add bays for traditional SIMs that should be physically distinct if provisioned by different carriers.

smoovb 3y ago

Much of the eSIM dislike on this thread misses several points: * eSIM for travel vs eSIM for home use are completely different use cases. * US, Canada and other carrier from other countries severely hamper the experience by charging for QR codes, physical delivery, IMEI requirements and carrier locking. * Most handsets can have multiple eSIMs installed (I have 10 with one active) giving you carrier flexibility not previously possible. * With VoLTE or WiFi Calling your home number works like a VOIP number anywhere in the world. In this case you may only need a data only eSIM, where KYC requirements are reduced and options are plentiful.