27 ms·

Exway doesn't care about USB-C conformity

159 points by ericswpark 3y ago

jasonmp85 3y ago
[dead]
CoastalCoder 3y ago
We really need a separate certification agency for USB / HDMI / DP devices. With teeth.
RockRobotRock 3y ago
I have this problem with cheap disposable vapes I get from corner stores. Elfbar did seem to add a resistor at some point, though, which is great :)
- jasonmp85 3y ago
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- deleted 3y ago
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jtriangle 3y ago
While I'm glad that they took the time to hold support's feet to the fire over this, doing that sort of thing is almost certainly a waste of time. Seldom will you find a support team who can understand a technical hardware problem like this, and even more seldom will you find a company that responds to this with anything other than "nothing we can do, sorry". You're not going to get the "Wow, that is our bad, we'll retool our entire production line to account for that issue that nobody else complains about and send you one as soon as it's ready, thank you" that you so desire.
- MBCook 3y ago
  Support can’t do anything, but they are often your only chance to get what you want: the message passed to someone who might be able to in the future. That’s what the rep said they would do here. And sadly that’s the most you can ask for.
  - jojobas 3y ago
    Then you don't bother with the company and report it straight to the regulators. Losing that sweet CE sticker will make them move.
    - MBCook 3y ago
      Not implementing USB-PD could cause that to be yanked in a product.l? Maybe these aren’t sold in Europe though.
      - jojobas 3y ago
        I think the issue is worse than not implementing USB-PD, it won't charge at all when plugged into a usb-c port, thus not complying with the usb-c spec while having a usb-c port. I'm no lawyer but the author says it's illegal in some jurisdictions. In your declaration of conformity you have to list which standards you conform to, and IEC 62680-1-3 would be one of them. I suppose if you found to be lying on your declaration there would be consequences.
- mtlynch 3y ago
  I've sometimes been able to escalate to the right people and effect change, even when I have to go through a seemingly uncaring customer support team. I was inspired by patio11's "Identity Theft, Credit Reports, and You."[0] It changed the way I raise disputes with companies as a consumer, and it's gotten me good results. The tl; dr is that large organizations have things they're afraid of, and they typically have processes in place to prevent them from happening. If you figure out what the company is afraid of, tie your grievance to that fear, and it will pressure the company to resolve your issue. With credit reporting agencies, they're afraid of regulatory incidents. If you give signals that you're gathering evidence for a complaint to regulators, they'll work hard to resolve your issue. Other companies are afraid of a complaint to a distributor or the potential for a lawsuit. They're usually afraid of something, and if you can figure out what it is, you can get the attention of people with the power to resolve the issue. [0] https://www.kalzumeus.com/2017/09/09/identity-theft-credit-reports/ https://www.kalzumeus.com/2017/09/09/identity-theft-credit-r...
  - jasonjayr 3y ago
    So; in this specific case, if they have a USB-IF trademarked logo or icon on their device or packaging, then maybe the USB-IF could come along to put some pressure to get a better outcome? I've seen cheap devices with USB ports --- but no logo. Probably for this very reason.
    - overnight5349 3y ago
      The USB logo is pretty well pointless. All you're paying for is a license for the logo. Despite USB-IF's efforts to associate that logo with "good" or "safe" or even "compliant" USB devices, I doubt that many consumers know or care. Part of the reason is that their licensing is pretty pricey unless you're already at the mass manufacturing stage. You have to pay an annual fee for the logo, an annual fee for the VID, and you have to pay to get your widget certified. All so you can use a logo that consumers don't know or care about. On the other hand, you can implement a USB device without paying a dime to USB-IF. It's super annoying without your own VID, but that's often not even necessary. So we get cheap Chinese devices with no certification because why would they even bother?
- _yb2s 3y ago
  Great comment… It makes me appreciate that last year I bought a part for my car that didn’t work great but was ok. They said exactly that- they would gear up to manufacture a better one and get back to me. About 8 months later I got two redesigned parts free in the mail and got to keep the initial one.
  - jasonjayr 3y ago
    If this is True, then definitely name the company! This is excellent customer service!
- mike_d 3y ago
  > doing that sort of thing is almost certainly a waste of time. A waste of time for both parties, because the author is wrong. As Wikipedia helpfully points out: "The designation C refers only to the connector's physical configuration or form factor and should not be confused with the connector's specific capabilities" From the write up it looks like he was able to get it working with the minimum 3A required by the cable spec. You don't actually have to support C-to-C cables if you choose to not to communicate with the e-marker.
  - ericswpark 3y ago
    Hi, author here. The quote you mentioned from Wikipedia indeed says that devices don't have to implement all the capabilities of the connector. However, further down, it says the following: > USB-C devices may optionally provide or consume bus power currents of 1.5 A and 3.0 A (at 5 V) in addition to baseline bus power provision; power sources can either advertise increased USB current through the configuration channel, or they can implement the full USB Power Delivery specification using both BMC-coded configuration line and legacy BFSK-coded VBUS line. And further down: > However, to connect a USB 2.0/1.1 device to a USB-C host, use of Rd[57] on the CC pins is required, as the source (host) will not supply VBUS until a connection is detected through the CC pins. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB-C https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB-C As the device doesn't implement the full USB PD specs, it must advertise that it wants power through the CC (configuration channel) pins. This is part of the specifications and it must be properly implemented.
    - mike_d 3y ago
      > > However, to connect a USB 2.0/1.1 device to a USB-C host, use of Rd[57] on the CC pins is required, as the source (host) will not supply VBUS until a connection is detected through the CC pins. Yup. You are referring to the USB 2.0 spec there, not the USB-C spec. If you follow the citation it in turn seems to be citing (not explicitly) the USB-PD spec.
      - ericswpark 3y ago
        It's a remote that charges via the USB-C port. If it doesn't follow USB 2.0 spec, or the USB-PD spec, or any spec associated with the type-C port, how is it supposed to get power from the host device/charger?
- duxup 3y ago
  Worked in support for a long time. Very true. The real trick is trying to get the support guy to tell you what to do to get the right attention ... IF they know. I used to do that all the time when I did big time networking gear support. "I, the support guy, can't just send you a new router (price like $200k+), that's just the policy, I gotta do X, Y, Z. That will take a bit of time and here is how that works ____ . But if you can get _____ to tell me to do it, I'll do it." Now as a support guy you have to know the lay of the land before you deliver that line... but I was lucky enough to know and that org had good policies and so on. What is AMAZING is some customers didn't realize that I just gave them the route they needed to go to get exactly what they wanted and they'd complain and whine. Like guys ... come on. I'd also tell them what to do to get closer to that goal faster without pulling strings, but that meant they had to do extra work, lotta folks didn't want to do that either. Granted consumer support guy, probably has no tools / doesn't know the magic words / people and so on. Also probably afraid to tell you. Support personnel are most often "valued' for a short time but in reality are seen as a cost in most orgs and treated like garbage / scummy pawns. At one company I worked at the engineers would invite me over to their building when they had food catered. They knew we got jack squat (support almost never got food catered in), we had management who only knew how to prove their worth by penny pinching, and the engineers liked some of us / knew we saved them a lot of time. Side story: I don't know if Amazon ever had human support but right now I've got something that shipped 3+ months ago and it is "On the way but running late" ... for 3+ months. In the past Amazon would just give me a refund outright... Now Amazon just sends me between two different bots that can't help me at all... The seller has a bunch of posts and feedback all the same, people not getting the product. Amazon bot don't care tells me to talk to the other bot. My review (almost the same as the other reviews now warning people about not getting product) was rejected.
  - cameldrv 3y ago
    On the Amazon thing, get the tracking number and track it with the carrier. I’ve found Amazon will say something has shipped when only the label has been created. You can see the truth if you track it through the actual carrier. There seem to be some sellers on Amazon that just don’t ship things until the customer complains.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  > Seldom will you find a support team who can understand a technical hardware problem like this, and even more seldom will you find a company that responds to this with anything other than "nothing we can do, sorry". I've had reasonable luck, honestly. Certainly not the majority of the time, but often enough to have some hope. I've found that if I treat the support person decently -- as in, don't show my irritation and treat them as I'd prefer to be treated if I had their job -- and I demonstrate (not assert) that I've done my homework, know what I'm talking about, and am reasonable, I can get things escalated to someone who has the knowledge and power to address my concern. I've even been put directly in touch with devs this way on occasion. What I've learned is that most support people actually do want to get your issue resolved and don't want to spend all day with you. What you need to do is give them an acceptable (to their supervisors) reason to kick your issue to someone who can be more helpful. And don't be a dick. Nobody's going to go out of their way to help a dick.
chaostheory 3y ago
Given how complicated and inconsistent the USB-C spec is, I’m still surprised that Apple chose it even though it’s so terrible.
- KSS42 3y ago
  Apple helped define it!
- Kirby64 3y ago
  Apple is one of the key companies involved in the spec and guided it heavily. Why wouldn't they use?
  - bombcar 3y ago
    Apple may be one of the few companies that actually follows it, too.
  - chaostheory 3y ago
    Because it’s terrible.
deleted 3y ago
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tomrod 3y ago
So, you have proof their devices are defective, and chosen to be so. Hold on those emails, they are valuable. Also, this reminds me a lot of the urban legend regarding Van Halen and Brown M&Ms with regard to their contract.[0] If they ignore the easy stuff that is hard for most to know, what other corners might they be cutting? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Halen#Contract_riders https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Halen#Contract_riders
- Physkal 3y ago
  I wonder how effective is this strategy, and is there a name for it? Reminds me of people planting 20 dollar bills in their auto seats before a oil change/car repair. If the money is missing, what does that actually say about quality of the car repair? Also doesn't trust go both ways and you risk damaging the relationship with the vrndor? I'd be very reluctant to repair someone's car again or who plant judgmental traps.
  - tomrod 3y ago
    There is an academic literature in game theory dealing with this topic, the key text is called "Repeated Games and Reputation." The difference from your example and the OP is that OP's experience isn't a repeated purchase (to my understanding). For Van Halen and brown M&Ms, there are elements of leverage in negotiation and other elements of reputation.
nvahalik 3y ago
Chinese products don't have to conform... they just have to be cheap.
- vsnf 3y ago
  They’re not even cheap. Exway boards can go for upwards of $2000.
- MBCook 3y ago
  I have cheap products that work perfectly. I have expensive ones that don’t. More expensive things are usually right, but it is by no means a rule.
didntknowya 3y ago
Yes it's annoying but still don't get what the fuss is. You said it's because they don't care about the bigger picture. But the bigger picture is they are doing everything to cut cost and adding extra chips is not worth it. They aren't exactly hailed for their built quality.
- coder543 3y ago
  The required resistors are literally a tenth of a penny each ($0.0011/ea) on DigiKey[0], probably cheaper elsewhere. You need two of them. Two tenths of a single penny. Exway is charging between $350 and $1650 for their skateboards, from what I can see on their website. I highly doubt this was done for cost reasons, even including the additional assembly costs, which for surface mount resistors would be very low. This feels like a design error, and I doubt the support emails went anywhere meaningful. [0]: https://www.digikey.com/en/products/filter/chip-resistor-surface-mount/52?s=N4IgjCBcoEwAwA4CsVQAcAuUQFUB2AlhgPIBmAsgKYCGAzgK4BOlIANCPdgNbEAWAtrTYh%2BBPNiQA6CO37UAHhOkgAvuwC0MVCADGUDI3qV2AeygBtEAE5hKALpqQ6m9F37DxkGciWIDxwBs2gQAJtjqYHAyIJjYwgCOGACeEnBpcMLJaCyQIHR6KipAA https://www.digikey.com/en/products/filter/chip-resistor-sur...
  - didntknowya 3y ago
    materials costs are not the only consideration. they have to arrange for a secure supply, retooling, QC checking etc. to do it properly. I imagine they got the cheapest engineer to make a functioning product. Changing their whole production line for a $0.001 component is hardly worth their time in this product segment, however debatable the ethics or PR of it is.
    - coder543 3y ago
      Again, they're selling products worth nearly $2000. I'm not talking about changing their production line. I'm talking about why this happened in the first place. You said it was to save money because "adding extra chips is not worth it". I highly doubt it. This appears to be a design error. A design error while saving money on engineering? Maybe, but that isn't what your first comment said.
sickofparadox 3y ago
Since it's somewhat related to the topic, does anyone have a recommendation for where to buy USB 3.0 or 3.1 is cords is that are relatively inexpensive? I've gotten burned by Amazon too many times to trust.
- bombcar 3y ago
  If I really really really need it to work I buy an Apple one. Otherwise go to a real manufacturer like monoprice or a smaller company that specializes in cable. They will usually work well. You can’t get good cables for aliamazon bargain prices unless you go used/open box or similar.
  - duxup 3y ago
    I’ll second monoprice. I wanted some thin and various length hdmi cables, Amazon sold me garbage (no surprise these days). Went to monoprice and they were cheaper than Amazon and they worked. Not basement prices like some places... but I don't have a problem paying for reliability.
    - mauvehaus 3y ago
      I'll third them. I don't buy a lot of cables, but when seemingly every USB-micro cable in the house crapped out simultaneously, I put in an order for a fistful and they were all good. Monoprice is solid and their prices are fair. I think I got half a dozen cables shipped for about what one costs at e.g. CVS.
  - dcdc123 3y ago
    > a real manufacturer like monoprice Monoprice does not manufacture anything. Also, a lot of the apple USB-C cables are power only.
    - TylerE 3y ago
      They do actually design/spec the stuff they sell though, they're not just some random reseller slapping branding on whatever product is cheapest on AliBaba this week.
ylyn 3y ago
Meh, this problem is super, super common. I have many random electric devices that charge using USB-C that don't have the pulldown on CC. Maybe I should get/make a shim for this.. a USB-C female-to-male thing that just passes through everything but has a pulldown on CC.
- nagisa 3y ago
  Wouldn’t it be dangerous to plug this into a device that does not expect to be powered?
  - chias 3y ago
    No moreso than using a USB-A to USB-C cable, unless I fundamentally misunderstand something
    - TylerE 3y ago
      Doesn’t USB-C deliver more volts and amps?
      - zoky 3y ago
        Not if you’re using the resistors to demand power. It will only provide 5v, the same as USB-A. It’s sort of a “backwards-compatibility” mode.
        MBCook 3y ago
        Right. You need USB Power Delivery, which requires the chip mentioned in the article, to get real power.
      - bombcar 3y ago
        My USB-C to 240v dryer plug will work great at doing something.
- johnwalkr 3y ago
  I have a small kit I use when traveling. It includes a short c-c cable, an anker 45W charger (which is good enough for an m1 MacBook), a c-lightning adapter, a c-a adapter and an a-c adapter. Using both the c-a and a-c adapters in series works.
MBCook 3y ago
I have this problem constantly. I have to work with a number of hardware devices for my job (non-consumer hardware) that proudly claim USB-C. But they also are exactly like the old USB-micro devices with a different port and don’t charge on real USB-C. So to charge them I use a USB-C to USB-A port adapter so I can plug in a USB-A to USB-C cable. It’s horrible.
- duxup 3y ago
  > non-consumer hardware Presumably not cheap too and they do… that.
  - MBCook 3y ago
    Hundreds of dollars, and I wouldn’t be surprised if there were very healthy margins too. But two resistors? Nah. I have a feeling this will go over poorly with their customers as USB-A stops being so common and suddenly the devices “won’t charge” when plugged into computers or common power bricks.
- jauntywundrkind 3y ago
  I was kind of resigned for everything to be awful forever. It felt like 60% of the devices I bought had this problem. Makes things like charging these Tribit Surf speakers I otherwise love quite a pain. But I've purchased around a dozen pretty cheap devices with USB-C in the past year & much to my surprise each one has properly resistor terminated CC pins & just works. I was kind of begging for a specific C-C cable that built in the resistors, specifically for these bad devices. It'd be incredibly easy to make, but what a dumb purpose in life. A 3 inch male-to-female adapter would be ideal, for all these jerk-wad devices. I'm a bit perturbed but the very excellent power-monitoring AVHzY CT3 device I got recently automatically negotiates 5V, so at least when I go to plug in any of the various problematic devices, they work now. Alas it requires a second usb-c cable to work, plus the device, so it's cumbersome: that male-to-female usb-c 5v adapter would still be appreciated. In the end, it feels like the real pressure the world needs is better reviewing. It'd be lovely to have a meta-site, that tells reviewers things they need to check for on each product. Slip ups like this should be a notable ding on everyone's name, but there's so many reviewers and so few actually know all the various things to look for. Some progress in solving the review meta-problem - enumerating all the concerns any device-type might have- would be greatly appreciated.
cbsmith 3y ago
This is a classic example of where "Shibboleet" would avoid problems.
sumitgt 3y ago
Reminds me of issues I had with the Wahoo Elemnt Bolt bike computer: For some weird reason it cannot charge if you plug the other end of the USB-C cord to a Apple made charger. It works with all other USB-C wall bricks. Never understood what that was about
- bombcar 3y ago
  Apple follows the standards. It probably tries to negotiate power before sending it; the other bricks just apply voltage no matter what.
  - MBCook 3y ago
    This is my understanding as well.
- dcdc123 3y ago
  Pretty sure the apple chargers will only work if the cable supports the charger’s max watt output.
senectus1 3y ago
>“Just charge it with a USB-A to C cable! What’s the big deal here?” The European Union would like to have a word with you....
tasbir49 3y ago
Originally USB-C was supposed to be convenient and easy to use. One port for many different purposes. Instead we have what we have now: a complete mess of a standard that makes it more confusing than USB ever was.
qiqitori 3y ago
I don't care either. They'll probably fix it at some point if they themselves get annoyed by this behavior. But TBH, very few people will be inconvenienced by this at the current time. I have exactly one C to C cable in my house, and a lot of A to B or C cables. So what if it violates the USB C spec? The Nintendo Switch violates the C spec too. Perhaps they should have made the spec a little more straightforward?
- kadoban 3y ago
  > I have exactly one C to C cable in my house, and a lot of A to B or C cables. So what if it violates the USB C spec? The Nintendo Switch violates the C spec too. Perhaps they should have made the spec a little more straightforward? You may or may not be surprised, but other people have different mixes of tech. I'm past the halfway point in A to C, it's more troublesome now to find an open A port or cable than the other way around. If you excuse bad behavior by companies, they'll gladly take advantage of that. Letting them blame the spec is foolish. It's not _that_ hard to get at least the basics right. Many do it fine.
- ewoodrich 3y ago
  My Switch charges just fine with USB-C to USB-C cables. These days all I buy are GaN chargers with 3 USB-C / 1 USB-A and they can charge my MacBook, my Lenovo laptop, my work Dell, my Galaxy phone, basically 9/10 of my electronics at their max charging speed with the same USB-C to USB-C cable. Which makes these cheap devices missing pulldown resistors that cost a penny or something extremely annoying.
  - dcdc123 3y ago
    The problem with Switch is really the charger. If a device pulls down the resistors it puts out 15v. It is dangerous to plug into other devices.
- SomewhatLikely 3y ago
  Can you get high wattage charging from A to C cables? I got my first 65 watt charging phone what four or five years ago? So I use only the C to C cables at all my chargers. Plugging random other devices into those chargers and not having them work would be an annoyance to me.
deleted 3y ago
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anymouse123456 3y ago
(throwaway account for fear of retribution) Eh, I don't know... The author seems to assume the USB-IF is a good thing. Having gone through the despicable $4,000 shakedown that is required to get a vendor id from the USB-IF, and implemented multiple devices against the outrages that are the specs, I dream about the remote possibility of living in a post-USB world someday. Yes, I was around in the bad old days before USB...
- m463 3y ago
  come on, we just got rid of crossover cables for ethernet, do you really want rs-232 again? :)
  - anymouse123456 3y ago
    Yah, there are lots of good reasons to be grateful for USB (especially before the fiasco that is type C). I'm just bitter and resentful about being forced to pay thousands of dollars for an artificially scarce number.
    - throwawaymobule 3y ago
      do you really need to get a vendor number? I've assumed there's an unregulated section somewhere. I think most cheap devices I've tangled with use the vendor number of whoever made the chipset. (or a random one, because chineseium)
      - anymouse123456 3y ago
        Yes, you do. You can beg for one from a chip vendor, but they aren't really permitted to dole them out, and they will help once, but not for production distributions. You can ignore it, make one up, or just try to take someone else's, but there be dragons that way too. If you plan to distribute an actual electronic product under a real business name, you must first pay these trolls thousands of dollars. It's probably a rounding error for companies who make billions of things, but for small market goods? USB-IF says, "Get rekt nerd! Gimme yer lunch money!
solardev 3y ago
This will almost always be the case with cheap things with a Usb-C port, even from big brands like Sonicare (toothbrushes and water flosses). If you don't see USB PD (Power Delivery) on it, chances are it won't work with your usual chargers. Even with PD on it, it can be hit or miss, but at least at an 80% success rate vs 0% without it.
sedivy94 3y ago
Totally unrelated to the substance of your post… enable word wrapping in those text boxes if possible.
- ericswpark 3y ago
  Yup, I noticed it after publishing. I'll check with the blog theme and see if that is possible. Sorry!
ggm 3y ago
Is there a royalty on the chipset to do it better than resistor pullups? The article implies its a relatively high BoM cost to have the negotiation. I can see its pinouts, board design, test but the actual chip.. surely is still down in the 0.0001c range? or is this one "pay the cartel" expensive?
- MBCook 3y ago
  The chip lets you draw more than the minimum USB-A standard power. And that’s what, 500mA?
  - ggm 3y ago
    Yes, thats it's role, but it does it "intelligently" where the resistor pullups do it the "dumb" way. His complaint is they cheaped out on even the resistor path. I just wondered if some hypothesized USB-C consortium decided to "patent" how the signals work, and charge $ for compliance/conformance to the chipset for a logo badging and green tick. It's more usual higher up the complexity food chain like MP4 decoding. Frauenhoffer wants its IPR respected. Philips made coin on conformance to the audio cassette form factor. Somebody made book with CD-ROM size, encoding. It's normal.
  - johnwalkr 3y ago
    Without such a chip you can use resistors to configure up to 5V, 3A.
- exmadscientist 3y ago
  The chip is very expensive, sadly. If it were just a matter of the cartel, that would be one thing (and would have Shenzhen-made workarounds). No, the USB lunatics made USB-PD one of the most insane specifications you'll ever find, so that no one can implement it correctly period. (Seriously, it's actually the description of the actual behavior of an old TI part, bugs and all, turned into a spec. It's horrid. It's the genuine worst specification ever.) So you end up needing a 48MHz Cortex-M0 microcontroller just to do the god damned power delivery. At least, I've never seen it done by a less capable part. And processors of that class are, alas, just not that cheap.
amusingimpala75 3y ago
Things like this are the reason the EU mandate for USB C bothers me. No, it doesn’t allow universal charging if the company is still going to be USB C-C charging compatible.
QuiEgo 3y ago
For the curious, there's a hierarchy defined by the USB-C cable spec. Table 4-17 Precedence of power source usage https://www.usb.org/sites/default/files/USB%20Type-C%20Spec%20R2.0%20-%20August%202019.pdf https://www.usb.org/sites/default/files/USB%20Type-C%20Spec%... - Baseline: it behaves like a USB cable from 1996. Sync gets 100mA@5V (USB2) or 150mA@5V (USB3), and then as part of USB enumeration you can get up to 500mA@5V (USB2) or 900/1500mA@5V (USB3 single/dual lane) depending on what happens during USB enumeration. Then, in priority order: - USB PD: If both sides negotiate a USB PD contract, that overrides baseline, and you get up to 5A@20V (or more now with the new EPR stuff) - USB Type-C current: The source drives a voltage on USB-C CC (pin only in USB-C cables) to say if it can give 1.5A@5V or 3A@5V, the sync pulls CC to say if it wants it (what the author is talking about here). If both sides have the right signaling, the source gives the current requested to the sync. - USB BC 1.2: Intended for charging bricks; brick shorts the USB2 D+/D- together to signal device it gets up to 1.5A@5V. Or 2.4A@5V if you use Apple's extension (see, every iPad brick back in the day) So, wonder if the USB-C to USB-A case in the article is just working because it's hooking up to a USB BC brick with that USB-C to USB-A cable, and the remote needs more than 100mA to charge and only supports the USB BC case? Note only baseline is required to be compliant with the spec; there's no rule that the device has to use any of the other features. Welcome to USB :)
- QuiEgo 3y ago
  Also worth noting this is super common on devices designed to have a micro USB-B port, which then are later switched over to USB-C; they just hook up the pins from USB-B and don't bother with the new pins from USB-C. The spec is specifically designed to allow this, because USB has backwards compatibility as a core tenant (i.e. you can plug in your USB keyboard from 1996 and it will probably still work). Also a USB-C to micro USB-B cable or USB-C to USB-A cable is explicitly allowed in the spec, and how could such a thing possibly work if the spec somehow required using the new CC pins instead of making them optional, since those pins are not in USB-A/USB-B? Still, not the nicest experience for users :(
  - ThePowerOfFuet 3y ago
    Minor nits: _sink_ instead of sync in this sense, and _tenet_ instead of tenant.
johnwalkr 3y ago
I upgraded all my old microusb and non-conforming usb-c devices to working usb-c. I think in every case of a non-conforming usb-c device, the connector itself only had V, ground, d+ and d- (and sometimes not even the last two). So it's kind of understandable how a junior engineer, when asked to update a design from microusb to usb-c finds a connector without CC pins and puts it in the design without thinking twice. This also means the easiest DIY fix is the same as upgrading a device from microusb. Buy a connector with a small breakout board that has the correct resistors like this one[1]. Desolder the old connector, and solder the new one onto any convenient ground pads. Using the linked connector, it needs to be soldered upside-down but you can find a few different styles on aliexpress depending on what will fit in your device. You may need to insulate or scrape away some traces to avoid short circuits. Then solder small wires in place for V, ground, d+ and d-. There's always a nearby capacitor to solder to V, and nearby resistors to solder to d+ and d-. [1]https://www.tindie.com/products/casualcoders/c-usb-type-c-breakout-board/ https://www.tindie.com/products/casualcoders/c-usb-type-c-br...

159 points by ericswpark 3y ago

jasonmp85 3y ago

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CoastalCoder 3y ago

We really need a separate certification agency for USB / HDMI / DP devices. With teeth.

RockRobotRock 3y ago

I have this problem with cheap disposable vapes I get from corner stores. Elfbar did seem to add a resistor at some point, though, which is great :)

jasonmp85 3y ago
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deleted 3y ago
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jtriangle 3y ago

While I'm glad that they took the time to hold support's feet to the fire over this, doing that sort of thing is almost certainly a waste of time. Seldom will you find a support team who can understand a technical hardware problem like this, and even more seldom will you find a company that responds to this with anything other than "nothing we can do, sorry". You're not going to get the "Wow, that is our bad, we'll retool our entire production line to account for that issue that nobody else complains about and send you one as soon as it's ready, thank you" that you so desire.

MBCook 3y ago
Support can’t do anything, but they are often your only chance to get what you want: the message passed to someone who might be able to in the future. That’s what the rep said they would do here. And sadly that’s the most you can ask for.
- jojobas 3y ago
  Then you don't bother with the company and report it straight to the regulators. Losing that sweet CE sticker will make them move.
  - MBCook 3y ago
    Not implementing USB-PD could cause that to be yanked in a product.l? Maybe these aren’t sold in Europe though.
    - jojobas 3y ago
      I think the issue is worse than not implementing USB-PD, it won't charge at all when plugged into a usb-c port, thus not complying with the usb-c spec while having a usb-c port. I'm no lawyer but the author says it's illegal in some jurisdictions. In your declaration of conformity you have to list which standards you conform to, and IEC 62680-1-3 would be one of them. I suppose if you found to be lying on your declaration there would be consequences.
mtlynch 3y ago
I've sometimes been able to escalate to the right people and effect change, even when I have to go through a seemingly uncaring customer support team. I was inspired by patio11's "Identity Theft, Credit Reports, and You."[0] It changed the way I raise disputes with companies as a consumer, and it's gotten me good results. The tl; dr is that large organizations have things they're afraid of, and they typically have processes in place to prevent them from happening. If you figure out what the company is afraid of, tie your grievance to that fear, and it will pressure the company to resolve your issue. With credit reporting agencies, they're afraid of regulatory incidents. If you give signals that you're gathering evidence for a complaint to regulators, they'll work hard to resolve your issue. Other companies are afraid of a complaint to a distributor or the potential for a lawsuit. They're usually afraid of something, and if you can figure out what it is, you can get the attention of people with the power to resolve the issue. [0] https://www.kalzumeus.com/2017/09/09/identity-theft-credit-reports/ https://www.kalzumeus.com/2017/09/09/identity-theft-credit-r...
- jasonjayr 3y ago
  So; in this specific case, if they have a USB-IF trademarked logo or icon on their device or packaging, then maybe the USB-IF could come along to put some pressure to get a better outcome? I've seen cheap devices with USB ports --- but no logo. Probably for this very reason.
  - overnight5349 3y ago
    The USB logo is pretty well pointless. All you're paying for is a license for the logo. Despite USB-IF's efforts to associate that logo with "good" or "safe" or even "compliant" USB devices, I doubt that many consumers know or care. Part of the reason is that their licensing is pretty pricey unless you're already at the mass manufacturing stage. You have to pay an annual fee for the logo, an annual fee for the VID, and you have to pay to get your widget certified. All so you can use a logo that consumers don't know or care about. On the other hand, you can implement a USB device without paying a dime to USB-IF. It's super annoying without your own VID, but that's often not even necessary. So we get cheap Chinese devices with no certification because why would they even bother?
_yb2s 3y ago
Great comment… It makes me appreciate that last year I bought a part for my car that didn’t work great but was ok. They said exactly that- they would gear up to manufacture a better one and get back to me. About 8 months later I got two redesigned parts free in the mail and got to keep the initial one.
- jasonjayr 3y ago
  If this is True, then definitely name the company! This is excellent customer service!
mike_d 3y ago
> doing that sort of thing is almost certainly a waste of time. A waste of time for both parties, because the author is wrong. As Wikipedia helpfully points out: "The designation C refers only to the connector's physical configuration or form factor and should not be confused with the connector's specific capabilities" From the write up it looks like he was able to get it working with the minimum 3A required by the cable spec. You don't actually have to support C-to-C cables if you choose to not to communicate with the e-marker.
- ericswpark 3y ago
  Hi, author here. The quote you mentioned from Wikipedia indeed says that devices don't have to implement all the capabilities of the connector. However, further down, it says the following: > USB-C devices may optionally provide or consume bus power currents of 1.5 A and 3.0 A (at 5 V) in addition to baseline bus power provision; power sources can either advertise increased USB current through the configuration channel, or they can implement the full USB Power Delivery specification using both BMC-coded configuration line and legacy BFSK-coded VBUS line. And further down: > However, to connect a USB 2.0/1.1 device to a USB-C host, use of Rd[57] on the CC pins is required, as the source (host) will not supply VBUS until a connection is detected through the CC pins. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB-C https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB-C As the device doesn't implement the full USB PD specs, it must advertise that it wants power through the CC (configuration channel) pins. This is part of the specifications and it must be properly implemented.
  - mike_d 3y ago
    > > However, to connect a USB 2.0/1.1 device to a USB-C host, use of Rd[57] on the CC pins is required, as the source (host) will not supply VBUS until a connection is detected through the CC pins. Yup. You are referring to the USB 2.0 spec there, not the USB-C spec. If you follow the citation it in turn seems to be citing (not explicitly) the USB-PD spec.
    - ericswpark 3y ago
      It's a remote that charges via the USB-C port. If it doesn't follow USB 2.0 spec, or the USB-PD spec, or any spec associated with the type-C port, how is it supposed to get power from the host device/charger?
duxup 3y ago
Worked in support for a long time. Very true. The real trick is trying to get the support guy to tell you what to do to get the right attention ... IF they know. I used to do that all the time when I did big time networking gear support. "I, the support guy, can't just send you a new router (price like $200k+), that's just the policy, I gotta do X, Y, Z. That will take a bit of time and here is how that works ____ . But if you can get _____ to tell me to do it, I'll do it." Now as a support guy you have to know the lay of the land before you deliver that line... but I was lucky enough to know and that org had good policies and so on. What is AMAZING is some customers didn't realize that I just gave them the route they needed to go to get exactly what they wanted and they'd complain and whine. Like guys ... come on. I'd also tell them what to do to get closer to that goal faster without pulling strings, but that meant they had to do extra work, lotta folks didn't want to do that either. Granted consumer support guy, probably has no tools / doesn't know the magic words / people and so on. Also probably afraid to tell you. Support personnel are most often "valued' for a short time but in reality are seen as a cost in most orgs and treated like garbage / scummy pawns. At one company I worked at the engineers would invite me over to their building when they had food catered. They knew we got jack squat (support almost never got food catered in), we had management who only knew how to prove their worth by penny pinching, and the engineers liked some of us / knew we saved them a lot of time. Side story: I don't know if Amazon ever had human support but right now I've got something that shipped 3+ months ago and it is "On the way but running late" ... for 3+ months. In the past Amazon would just give me a refund outright... Now Amazon just sends me between two different bots that can't help me at all... The seller has a bunch of posts and feedback all the same, people not getting the product. Amazon bot don't care tells me to talk to the other bot. My review (almost the same as the other reviews now warning people about not getting product) was rejected.
- cameldrv 3y ago
  On the Amazon thing, get the tracking number and track it with the carrier. I’ve found Amazon will say something has shipped when only the label has been created. You can see the truth if you track it through the actual carrier. There seem to be some sellers on Amazon that just don’t ship things until the customer complains.
JohnFen 3y ago
> Seldom will you find a support team who can understand a technical hardware problem like this, and even more seldom will you find a company that responds to this with anything other than "nothing we can do, sorry". I've had reasonable luck, honestly. Certainly not the majority of the time, but often enough to have some hope. I've found that if I treat the support person decently -- as in, don't show my irritation and treat them as I'd prefer to be treated if I had their job -- and I demonstrate (not assert) that I've done my homework, know what I'm talking about, and am reasonable, I can get things escalated to someone who has the knowledge and power to address my concern. I've even been put directly in touch with devs this way on occasion. What I've learned is that most support people actually do want to get your issue resolved and don't want to spend all day with you. What you need to do is give them an acceptable (to their supervisors) reason to kick your issue to someone who can be more helpful. And don't be a dick. Nobody's going to go out of their way to help a dick.

chaostheory 3y ago

Given how complicated and inconsistent the USB-C spec is, I’m still surprised that Apple chose it even though it’s so terrible.

KSS42 3y ago
Apple helped define it!
Kirby64 3y ago
Apple is one of the key companies involved in the spec and guided it heavily. Why wouldn't they use?
- bombcar 3y ago
  Apple may be one of the few companies that actually follows it, too.
- chaostheory 3y ago
  Because it’s terrible.

deleted 3y ago

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tomrod 3y ago

So, you have proof their devices are defective, and chosen to be so. Hold on those emails, they are valuable. Also, this reminds me a lot of the urban legend regarding Van Halen and Brown M&Ms with regard to their contract.[0] If they ignore the easy stuff that is hard for most to know, what other corners might they be cutting? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Halen#Contract_riders https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Halen#Contract_riders

Physkal 3y ago
I wonder how effective is this strategy, and is there a name for it? Reminds me of people planting 20 dollar bills in their auto seats before a oil change/car repair. If the money is missing, what does that actually say about quality of the car repair? Also doesn't trust go both ways and you risk damaging the relationship with the vrndor? I'd be very reluctant to repair someone's car again or who plant judgmental traps.
- tomrod 3y ago
  There is an academic literature in game theory dealing with this topic, the key text is called "Repeated Games and Reputation." The difference from your example and the OP is that OP's experience isn't a repeated purchase (to my understanding). For Van Halen and brown M&Ms, there are elements of leverage in negotiation and other elements of reputation.

nvahalik 3y ago

Chinese products don't have to conform... they just have to be cheap.

vsnf 3y ago
They’re not even cheap. Exway boards can go for upwards of $2000.
MBCook 3y ago
I have cheap products that work perfectly. I have expensive ones that don’t. More expensive things are usually right, but it is by no means a rule.

didntknowya 3y ago

Yes it's annoying but still don't get what the fuss is. You said it's because they don't care about the bigger picture. But the bigger picture is they are doing everything to cut cost and adding extra chips is not worth it. They aren't exactly hailed for their built quality.

coder543 3y ago
The required resistors are literally a tenth of a penny each ($0.0011/ea) on DigiKey[0], probably cheaper elsewhere. You need two of them. Two tenths of a single penny. Exway is charging between $350 and $1650 for their skateboards, from what I can see on their website. I highly doubt this was done for cost reasons, even including the additional assembly costs, which for surface mount resistors would be very low. This feels like a design error, and I doubt the support emails went anywhere meaningful. [0]: https://www.digikey.com/en/products/filter/chip-resistor-surface-mount/52?s=N4IgjCBcoEwAwA4CsVQAcAuUQFUB2AlhgPIBmAsgKYCGAzgK4BOlIANCPdgNbEAWAtrTYh%2BBPNiQA6CO37UAHhOkgAvuwC0MVCADGUDI3qV2AeygBtEAE5hKALpqQ6m9F37DxkGciWIDxwBs2gQAJtjqYHAyIJjYwgCOGACeEnBpcMLJaCyQIHR6KipAA https://www.digikey.com/en/products/filter/chip-resistor-sur...
- didntknowya 3y ago
  materials costs are not the only consideration. they have to arrange for a secure supply, retooling, QC checking etc. to do it properly. I imagine they got the cheapest engineer to make a functioning product. Changing their whole production line for a $0.001 component is hardly worth their time in this product segment, however debatable the ethics or PR of it is.
  - coder543 3y ago
    Again, they're selling products worth nearly $2000. I'm not talking about changing their production line. I'm talking about why this happened in the first place. You said it was to save money because "adding extra chips is not worth it". I highly doubt it. This appears to be a design error. A design error while saving money on engineering? Maybe, but that isn't what your first comment said.

sickofparadox 3y ago

Since it's somewhat related to the topic, does anyone have a recommendation for where to buy USB 3.0 or 3.1 is cords is that are relatively inexpensive? I've gotten burned by Amazon too many times to trust.

bombcar 3y ago
If I really really really need it to work I buy an Apple one. Otherwise go to a real manufacturer like monoprice or a smaller company that specializes in cable. They will usually work well. You can’t get good cables for aliamazon bargain prices unless you go used/open box or similar.
- duxup 3y ago
  I’ll second monoprice. I wanted some thin and various length hdmi cables, Amazon sold me garbage (no surprise these days). Went to monoprice and they were cheaper than Amazon and they worked. Not basement prices like some places... but I don't have a problem paying for reliability.
  - mauvehaus 3y ago
    I'll third them. I don't buy a lot of cables, but when seemingly every USB-micro cable in the house crapped out simultaneously, I put in an order for a fistful and they were all good. Monoprice is solid and their prices are fair. I think I got half a dozen cables shipped for about what one costs at e.g. CVS.
- dcdc123 3y ago
  > a real manufacturer like monoprice Monoprice does not manufacture anything. Also, a lot of the apple USB-C cables are power only.
  - TylerE 3y ago
    They do actually design/spec the stuff they sell though, they're not just some random reseller slapping branding on whatever product is cheapest on AliBaba this week.

ylyn 3y ago

Meh, this problem is super, super common. I have many random electric devices that charge using USB-C that don't have the pulldown on CC. Maybe I should get/make a shim for this.. a USB-C female-to-male thing that just passes through everything but has a pulldown on CC.

nagisa 3y ago
Wouldn’t it be dangerous to plug this into a device that does not expect to be powered?
- chias 3y ago
  No moreso than using a USB-A to USB-C cable, unless I fundamentally misunderstand something
  - TylerE 3y ago
    Doesn’t USB-C deliver more volts and amps?
    - zoky 3y ago
      Not if you’re using the resistors to demand power. It will only provide 5v, the same as USB-A. It’s sort of a “backwards-compatibility” mode.
      - MBCook 3y ago
        Right. You need USB Power Delivery, which requires the chip mentioned in the article, to get real power.
    - bombcar 3y ago
      My USB-C to 240v dryer plug will work great at doing something.
johnwalkr 3y ago
I have a small kit I use when traveling. It includes a short c-c cable, an anker 45W charger (which is good enough for an m1 MacBook), a c-lightning adapter, a c-a adapter and an a-c adapter. Using both the c-a and a-c adapters in series works.

MBCook 3y ago

I have this problem constantly. I have to work with a number of hardware devices for my job (non-consumer hardware) that proudly claim USB-C. But they also are exactly like the old USB-micro devices with a different port and don’t charge on real USB-C. So to charge them I use a USB-C to USB-A port adapter so I can plug in a USB-A to USB-C cable. It’s horrible.

duxup 3y ago
> non-consumer hardware Presumably not cheap too and they do… that.
- MBCook 3y ago
  Hundreds of dollars, and I wouldn’t be surprised if there were very healthy margins too. But two resistors? Nah. I have a feeling this will go over poorly with their customers as USB-A stops being so common and suddenly the devices “won’t charge” when plugged into computers or common power bricks.
jauntywundrkind 3y ago
I was kind of resigned for everything to be awful forever. It felt like 60% of the devices I bought had this problem. Makes things like charging these Tribit Surf speakers I otherwise love quite a pain. But I've purchased around a dozen pretty cheap devices with USB-C in the past year & much to my surprise each one has properly resistor terminated CC pins & just works. I was kind of begging for a specific C-C cable that built in the resistors, specifically for these bad devices. It'd be incredibly easy to make, but what a dumb purpose in life. A 3 inch male-to-female adapter would be ideal, for all these jerk-wad devices. I'm a bit perturbed but the very excellent power-monitoring AVHzY CT3 device I got recently automatically negotiates 5V, so at least when I go to plug in any of the various problematic devices, they work now. Alas it requires a second usb-c cable to work, plus the device, so it's cumbersome: that male-to-female usb-c 5v adapter would still be appreciated. In the end, it feels like the real pressure the world needs is better reviewing. It'd be lovely to have a meta-site, that tells reviewers things they need to check for on each product. Slip ups like this should be a notable ding on everyone's name, but there's so many reviewers and so few actually know all the various things to look for. Some progress in solving the review meta-problem - enumerating all the concerns any device-type might have- would be greatly appreciated.

cbsmith 3y ago

This is a classic example of where "Shibboleet" would avoid problems.

sumitgt 3y ago

Reminds me of issues I had with the Wahoo Elemnt Bolt bike computer: For some weird reason it cannot charge if you plug the other end of the USB-C cord to a Apple made charger. It works with all other USB-C wall bricks. Never understood what that was about

bombcar 3y ago
Apple follows the standards. It probably tries to negotiate power before sending it; the other bricks just apply voltage no matter what.
- MBCook 3y ago
  This is my understanding as well.
dcdc123 3y ago
Pretty sure the apple chargers will only work if the cable supports the charger’s max watt output.

senectus1 3y ago

>“Just charge it with a USB-A to C cable! What’s the big deal here?” The European Union would like to have a word with you....

tasbir49 3y ago

Originally USB-C was supposed to be convenient and easy to use. One port for many different purposes. Instead we have what we have now: a complete mess of a standard that makes it more confusing than USB ever was.

qiqitori 3y ago

I don't care either. They'll probably fix it at some point if they themselves get annoyed by this behavior. But TBH, very few people will be inconvenienced by this at the current time. I have exactly one C to C cable in my house, and a lot of A to B or C cables. So what if it violates the USB C spec? The Nintendo Switch violates the C spec too. Perhaps they should have made the spec a little more straightforward?

kadoban 3y ago
> I have exactly one C to C cable in my house, and a lot of A to B or C cables. So what if it violates the USB C spec? The Nintendo Switch violates the C spec too. Perhaps they should have made the spec a little more straightforward? You may or may not be surprised, but other people have different mixes of tech. I'm past the halfway point in A to C, it's more troublesome now to find an open A port or cable than the other way around. If you excuse bad behavior by companies, they'll gladly take advantage of that. Letting them blame the spec is foolish. It's not _that_ hard to get at least the basics right. Many do it fine.
ewoodrich 3y ago
My Switch charges just fine with USB-C to USB-C cables. These days all I buy are GaN chargers with 3 USB-C / 1 USB-A and they can charge my MacBook, my Lenovo laptop, my work Dell, my Galaxy phone, basically 9/10 of my electronics at their max charging speed with the same USB-C to USB-C cable. Which makes these cheap devices missing pulldown resistors that cost a penny or something extremely annoying.
- dcdc123 3y ago
  The problem with Switch is really the charger. If a device pulls down the resistors it puts out 15v. It is dangerous to plug into other devices.
SomewhatLikely 3y ago
Can you get high wattage charging from A to C cables? I got my first 65 watt charging phone what four or five years ago? So I use only the C to C cables at all my chargers. Plugging random other devices into those chargers and not having them work would be an annoyance to me.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

anymouse123456 3y ago

(throwaway account for fear of retribution) Eh, I don't know... The author seems to assume the USB-IF is a good thing. Having gone through the despicable $4,000 shakedown that is required to get a vendor id from the USB-IF, and implemented multiple devices against the outrages that are the specs, I dream about the remote possibility of living in a post-USB world someday. Yes, I was around in the bad old days before USB...

m463 3y ago
come on, we just got rid of crossover cables for ethernet, do you really want rs-232 again? :)
- anymouse123456 3y ago
  Yah, there are lots of good reasons to be grateful for USB (especially before the fiasco that is type C). I'm just bitter and resentful about being forced to pay thousands of dollars for an artificially scarce number.
  - throwawaymobule 3y ago
    do you really need to get a vendor number? I've assumed there's an unregulated section somewhere. I think most cheap devices I've tangled with use the vendor number of whoever made the chipset. (or a random one, because chineseium)
    - anymouse123456 3y ago
      Yes, you do. You can beg for one from a chip vendor, but they aren't really permitted to dole them out, and they will help once, but not for production distributions. You can ignore it, make one up, or just try to take someone else's, but there be dragons that way too. If you plan to distribute an actual electronic product under a real business name, you must first pay these trolls thousands of dollars. It's probably a rounding error for companies who make billions of things, but for small market goods? USB-IF says, "Get rekt nerd! Gimme yer lunch money!

solardev 3y ago

This will almost always be the case with cheap things with a Usb-C port, even from big brands like Sonicare (toothbrushes and water flosses). If you don't see USB PD (Power Delivery) on it, chances are it won't work with your usual chargers. Even with PD on it, it can be hit or miss, but at least at an 80% success rate vs 0% without it.

sedivy94 3y ago

Totally unrelated to the substance of your post… enable word wrapping in those text boxes if possible.

ericswpark 3y ago
Yup, I noticed it after publishing. I'll check with the blog theme and see if that is possible. Sorry!

ggm 3y ago

Is there a royalty on the chipset to do it better than resistor pullups? The article implies its a relatively high BoM cost to have the negotiation. I can see its pinouts, board design, test but the actual chip.. surely is still down in the 0.0001c range? or is this one "pay the cartel" expensive?

MBCook 3y ago
The chip lets you draw more than the minimum USB-A standard power. And that’s what, 500mA?
- ggm 3y ago
  Yes, thats it's role, but it does it "intelligently" where the resistor pullups do it the "dumb" way. His complaint is they cheaped out on even the resistor path. I just wondered if some hypothesized USB-C consortium decided to "patent" how the signals work, and charge $ for compliance/conformance to the chipset for a logo badging and green tick. It's more usual higher up the complexity food chain like MP4 decoding. Frauenhoffer wants its IPR respected. Philips made coin on conformance to the audio cassette form factor. Somebody made book with CD-ROM size, encoding. It's normal.
- johnwalkr 3y ago
  Without such a chip you can use resistors to configure up to 5V, 3A.
exmadscientist 3y ago
The chip is very expensive, sadly. If it were just a matter of the cartel, that would be one thing (and would have Shenzhen-made workarounds). No, the USB lunatics made USB-PD one of the most insane specifications you'll ever find, so that no one can implement it correctly period. (Seriously, it's actually the description of the actual behavior of an old TI part, bugs and all, turned into a spec. It's horrid. It's the genuine worst specification ever.) So you end up needing a 48MHz Cortex-M0 microcontroller just to do the god damned power delivery. At least, I've never seen it done by a less capable part. And processors of that class are, alas, just not that cheap.

amusingimpala75 3y ago

Things like this are the reason the EU mandate for USB C bothers me. No, it doesn’t allow universal charging if the company is still going to be USB C-C charging compatible.

QuiEgo 3y ago

For the curious, there's a hierarchy defined by the USB-C cable spec. Table 4-17 Precedence of power source usage https://www.usb.org/sites/default/files/USB%20Type-C%20Spec%20R2.0%20-%20August%202019.pdf https://www.usb.org/sites/default/files/USB%20Type-C%20Spec%... - Baseline: it behaves like a USB cable from 1996. Sync gets 100mA@5V (USB2) or 150mA@5V (USB3), and then as part of USB enumeration you can get up to 500mA@5V (USB2) or 900/1500mA@5V (USB3 single/dual lane) depending on what happens during USB enumeration. Then, in priority order: - USB PD: If both sides negotiate a USB PD contract, that overrides baseline, and you get up to 5A@20V (or more now with the new EPR stuff) - USB Type-C current: The source drives a voltage on USB-C CC (pin only in USB-C cables) to say if it can give 1.5A@5V or 3A@5V, the sync pulls CC to say if it wants it (what the author is talking about here). If both sides have the right signaling, the source gives the current requested to the sync. - USB BC 1.2: Intended for charging bricks; brick shorts the USB2 D+/D- together to signal device it gets up to 1.5A@5V. Or 2.4A@5V if you use Apple's extension (see, every iPad brick back in the day) So, wonder if the USB-C to USB-A case in the article is just working because it's hooking up to a USB BC brick with that USB-C to USB-A cable, and the remote needs more than 100mA to charge and only supports the USB BC case? Note only baseline is required to be compliant with the spec; there's no rule that the device has to use any of the other features. Welcome to USB :)

QuiEgo 3y ago
Also worth noting this is super common on devices designed to have a micro USB-B port, which then are later switched over to USB-C; they just hook up the pins from USB-B and don't bother with the new pins from USB-C. The spec is specifically designed to allow this, because USB has backwards compatibility as a core tenant (i.e. you can plug in your USB keyboard from 1996 and it will probably still work). Also a USB-C to micro USB-B cable or USB-C to USB-A cable is explicitly allowed in the spec, and how could such a thing possibly work if the spec somehow required using the new CC pins instead of making them optional, since those pins are not in USB-A/USB-B? Still, not the nicest experience for users :(
- ThePowerOfFuet 3y ago
  Minor nits: _sink_ instead of sync in this sense, and _tenet_ instead of tenant.

johnwalkr 3y ago

I upgraded all my old microusb and non-conforming usb-c devices to working usb-c. I think in every case of a non-conforming usb-c device, the connector itself only had V, ground, d+ and d- (and sometimes not even the last two). So it's kind of understandable how a junior engineer, when asked to update a design from microusb to usb-c finds a connector without CC pins and puts it in the design without thinking twice. This also means the easiest DIY fix is the same as upgrading a device from microusb. Buy a connector with a small breakout board that has the correct resistors like this one[1]. Desolder the old connector, and solder the new one onto any convenient ground pads. Using the linked connector, it needs to be soldered upside-down but you can find a few different styles on aliexpress depending on what will fit in your device. You may need to insulate or scrape away some traces to avoid short circuits. Then solder small wires in place for V, ground, d+ and d-. There's always a nearby capacitor to solder to V, and nearby resistors to solder to d+ and d-. [1]https://www.tindie.com/products/casualcoders/c-usb-type-c-breakout-board/ https://www.tindie.com/products/casualcoders/c-usb-type-c-br...