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Norwegian shipping company bans electric cars on board classic ferry route
- khaled_ismaeel 3y agoEven if lithium-ion battery-powered cars were as safe as gasoline powered ones, I can imagine the significant weight of electric cars is a major issue still.
- gambiting 3y agoI can't imagine it makes absolutely any difference to a car ferry. And also it's not like all EVs weigh more than ICE cars - we have an EV that weighs 1200kg and a normal ICE car that weighs 2200kg - why is the first one forbidden but the other one isn't?
- masklinn 3y agoNorwegian coastal ferries transport just a few dozen cars, alongside 600+ passengers in coastal mode, with 1100 tonnes DWT. The car weight is not really material. If it was, they'd put a weight limit on the service not a nature limit.
- bzzzt 3y agoProbably upvoted due to the vehicle carrier that's currently on fire in the Netherlands? https://www.dutchnews.nl/2023/07/putting-out-cargo-ship-fire-could-take-weeks-dutch-coastguard/ https://www.dutchnews.nl/2023/07/putting-out-cargo-ship-fire...
- bruce511 3y agoI understand where they are coming from, but in a market with a lot of EV's it seems it'll just drive customers to the competition. No-one wants a fire on a ship, and lithium batteries in a fire aren't fun, but if you want to transport cars then I guess you'll need to figure something out to stay in business...
- intrasight 3y agoSolution would be to provide a place at the dock to store your battery ;)
- frumper 3y agoSounds like you might as well store your car at the dock then too. An EV is pretty worthless without a battery.
- rvba 3y agoIt seems that hydrogen based cars are the way to go. Electric car fires are nasty in garages too.
- makeitdouble 3y ago> if you want to transport cars My best guess is that no, they don't really want to transport cars, they seem to be doing so almost begrudgingly. I looked around their pretty touristic cruises, they can accommodate hundreds of passengers, and _9_ cars. My guess would be they could stop allowing passenger cars altogether it wouldn't make a dent in their business model. https://www.havilavoyages.com/the-ships/travel-with-a-car https://www.havilavoyages.com/the-ships/travel-with-a-car
- martin_a 3y agoAs a firefighter this is just as funny as cringeworthy to read. > An electric car fire gets very hot, and there may be a risk of explosion where toxic gases will be released You know what? That's the case with _every_ car fire in enclosed spaces. Explosions in car fires are very rare (tires will regularly pop), but every fire will release toxic gases. Especially car fires with lots of highly refined materials in the interior. That's why we wear heavy protective equipment when dealing with fires. > electric cars, hybrid cars and also hydrogen cars will not be allowed on board Well, the future does not look bright for this shipping company.
- tiahura 3y agoBologna aside, isn’t there a legit issue re the difficulty in extinguishing an EV battery pack? I can see how “just give it a few days to burn itself out isn’t a viable strategy on a boat.
- V__ 3y agoSince it's a ferry, a solution could be to just push if overboard. How often do fires on ferry happen?
- cjfd 3y agoHave you ever actually seen a bunch of cars tightly parked on a ferry? If not, google 'cars on a ferry' and click some images. Now, imagine a car somewhere in the middle of the bunch catching fire. Are you going to volunteer 'pushing it overboard'?
- ugjka 3y agoyou can't push them when they are deep in a pack of cars
- yreg 3y agoYou would have to push the entire column of cars before it overboard.
- playingalong 3y agoOut of all the places in the world, I would assume Norway would be the last to do so. Does it make sense? Will they revert the decision after complaints? Hard to tell if this ferry is used by locals or is it only some touristy thing (for rented cars).
- masklinn 3y ago> Hard to tell if this ferry is used by locals or is it only some touristy thing (for rented cars). Both, it's the coastal norwegian route. However they're not car ferries, they're passenger ferries which can carry a few cars on the bottom deck. The standard payload is a few dozen cars but several hundred passengers. The entire trip from end to end takes 6 days, but there are around 30 stops.
- arnvidr 3y agoThis is not the only company servicing this route, this is a new company added to this route a few years ago, and the older company are still allowing electric cars according to the linked origin article at NRK. The route is also not a local one, running along most of the coast of the whole country, between the very north and pretty far south, so I don't really know if there is that much traffic only travelling a stop or two. Definitely a bunch of tourist traffic though.
- cornedor 3y agoI guess this is related to: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/one-dead-cargo-ship-fire-electric-car-suspected-source-dutch-coastguard-2023-07-26/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/one-dead-cargo-ship-fir... edit: The linked article is from February, the fire happened today.
- pmontra 3y agoThe article seems to be from today: > Ship carrying 3,000 cars ablaze off Dutch coast, crew member dead > July 26, 2023 3:04 PM UTC Updated 5 min ago Edit: Oops. I see what you mean now. The article linked to HN is from February. The fire on the ship is from today.
- drbig 3y agoRelevant news: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/one-dead-cargo-ship-fire-electric-car-suspected-source-dutch-coastguard-2023-07-26/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/one-dead-cargo-ship-fir... Seems to me the problem currently is that while the probability of an electric car catching fire is very low, if it does so the fire itself is of the very nasty kind.
- bzzzt 3y agoThe bathtub curve says electronics fail more often early on in life or at the end of their lifespan. Maybe one of the vehicles had a bad battery? Probably those EV's are charged at the factory for testing, transport and to prevent the battery from draining. Possibly there's a way to prevent a fire in a single vehicle from spreading to the others. Maybe better compartmentalisation or starving the fire from oxygen. That will require a lot of retrofitting on those carriers though.
- drbig 3y agoMy initial thought was exactly the compartmentalization idea. Also, as far as I understand Lithium-based battery tech you can't really have/ship a "flat battery", it has to have some charge in order not to break down on itself. If that's the case then yeah, the simplest option "ship it without fuel, like an ICE car" goes out the window.
- jeroenhd 3y agoWith the rate at which ICE cars randomly ignite, you'd think they would've banned electric cars already (self ignition for ICE engines is way higher than that of electric cars for some reason). Cars on boats, regardless of fuel type, is just incredibly risky. That said, it's impossible to extinguish a lithium battery so I can't blame them. When a fire does eventually start, it'll burn for the entire duration of the trip and probably a while after as well. Their take on hybrids (with much smaller batteries) and hydrogen cars (those are just weird, more complex ICE cars) is bad, though. My guess is that there's more going on. Perhaps the extra weight of modern cars is causing them problems? They would have to ban ridiculous vehicles like SUVs as well if that were a concern, but it could explain why a shipping company is putting out such strict limitations.
- gtirloni 3y ago> it's impossible to extinguish a lithium battery Really?
- marcosdumay 3y agoThe thing about batteries is that they include both components necessary for maintaining a fire. (Just like explosives, by the way, but less mixed.)
- KRAKRISMOTT 3y agoDo lead acids contain oxidizer and fuel too?
- marcosdumay 3y agoYes, all batteries do. But both are much less reactive than on lithium batteries.
- KRAKRISMOTT 3y agoWhy though? Are all batteries inherently two way redox reactions?
- 0xfedbee 3y agoLet me guess: Was it a Tesla?
- some_random 3y agoStatistically, probably.
- jarym 3y agoI wonder if these types of bans will become more wide-spread - I can imagine them being quite dangerous on underground railways like the Eurotunnel.
- Symbiote 3y ago> However, as fire inspector Sigurd Folgerø Dalen at the Oslo Fire Department said to Faktisk.no, large amounts of water will be needed if an EV catches fire. That shouldn't be too difficult to find on a ferry. The Danish Institute of Fire Safety seems to think it's OK: https://brandogsikring.dk/en/news/2022/new-knowledge-about-battery-fires-in-electric-cars-on-ferries/ https://brandogsikring.dk/en/news/2022/new-knowledge-about-b... / https://brandogsikring.dk/en/research-and-development/maritime/elbas/ https://brandogsikring.dk/en/research-and-development/mariti...
- rob74 3y agoThe problem with pumping large amounts of water into a ship is that a ship with large amounts of water on board will tend to have trouble staying afloat...
- semi-extrinsic 3y agoFWIW this ship is much closer to a cruise ship than a ferry. It goes along the coast of Norway, taking 6 days to go from Bergen to Kirkenes, taking scenic detours along the way. It has capacity for just a few cars, and with a maximum vehicle size that is quite limited - e.g. a Tesla Model X is too big. What is noteworthy is that they are also restricting hybrids, so in practice it means they will only take on really old cars. Their competitor "Hurtigruten" which travels the same distance is a lot less restrictive on car transport. They way I read this, they are bound by the contract with the government to offer car transport, but they are putting up restrictions in the name of safety etc. that ensure less and less cars are actually transported.
- dnw 3y agoThanks! That’s relevant context. I thought they were barring EVs from inland ferries because that would extend travel times!
- yreg 3y agoI know EV fires are more difficult to put out, but apparently EVs are far far less likely to catch fire to begin with. According to AutoinsuranceEZ study based on US government data, rates of fires per 100k cars: Hybrid 3474.5 ICE 1529.9 EV 25.1 https://www.autoinsuranceez.com/gas-vs-electric-car-fires/ https://www.autoinsuranceez.com/gas-vs-electric-car-fires/
- mort96 3y agoBut what's interesting here is how likely they are to catch fire while not running. I'm guessing those statistics look quite different.
- yreg 3y agoSeems to me that it's incredibly rare and already included in the figures above. But please correct me if I'm wrong and you find some data.
- rob74 3y agoYes, but ferry and car carrier vessel operators will be much more interested in this figure than in the overall one.
- mrguyorama 3y agoPlenty of ICE vehicles catch fire unattended in a garage. The 12v electrics are plenty to ignite flammable residues everywhere, or even just plastics in the body.
- mort96 3y agoI'm not saying it doesn't happen, and I'm not saying EVs are dangerous unattended, I'm just pointing out that the interesting statistics aren't those which cover probability of catching fire while running.
- 1970-01-01 3y agoA low risk, low reward business model is a terrible business model. Looks like the competition will happily transport this forbidden cargo.
- RosanaAnaDana 3y agoTell that to the insurance industry.
- underdeserver 3y agoWell, Teslas and other EVs have been coming to the US from China and to Europe and the middle east aboard freight ships. Other large Li-ion batteries have moved around the world too. If it was a serious concern, wouldn't the risk equally affect all these freight ships?
- mort96 3y agoI wouldn't be surprised if they're way more likely to catch fire after having been abused and poorly maintained by an end user for a decade than when they're fresh off the factory.
- testhest 3y agoIf they cannot get insurance at a reasonable rate they have to react this way. Insurance companies are in the business of knowing risk, and they are pretty good at it.
- RosanaAnaDana 3y agoSometimes. Other times when they aren't confident in their estimate of the risk, they respond extremely conservatively.
- fanatic2pope 3y agoAccording to wikipedia their ships can only carry 5 cars. Also it seems their ships have a natural gas-electric hybrid power train with a 6.1Mwh lithium ion battery pack onboard. Thus, even if they carried the maximum of 5 EV's, and they were all Hummer's with 210kwh battery packs, the ships onboard battery pack would still dwarf them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Havila_Kystruten https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Havila_Kystruten https://www.electrichybridmarinetechnology.com/news/rolls-royce-launches-new-battery-system-for-ships.html https://www.electrichybridmarinetechnology.com/news/rolls-ro...
- RosanaAnaDana 3y agoThis seems relevant. So assumedly they would have lithium ion fire fighting equipment on board as well as the appropriate training. At a max capacity of 6 vehicle that hardley seems like significantly more training or equipment. Maybe a couple extra CO2 fire extinguishers. With these details it seems much Ado about nothing (click bait).
- honeybadger1 3y agoA solution looking for a problem.
- mschuster91 3y agoOh jesus, I had expected that to happen after today's fire of a car freighter. Everyone is hating on BEVs, but the problem runs way deeper: Most car ferries are old. Like, really goddamn old, many decades are the norm, not a rarity - unlike oil tankers, where the double-hull mandate has forced a lot of old ships into retirement years ago. These things are almost exclusively completely open decks from bow to stern, which means any fire has an easy time to spread through the entire deck and subsequently destabilize the ship. No doors, no intermediate walls, nothing to stand in the way of fire, heat and smoke. At the same time, on-board firefighting equipment is designed to handle a burning car just fine... a gasoline car. Smother it in water, and the fire should at least stay contained. A lithium fire however needs the car to be submerged and even that's not a guarantee it will extinguish, but - remember the open decks - any water that gets sprayed onto it just flows away. Given that BEVs will become the norm in the next decades, shippers absolutely need to buy new ships, designed to be able to withstand the very different load of a battery fire. But they won't do that because, surprise, ships are extremely expensive...
- Symbiote 3y agoI don't think it's true that most ro-ro car ferries are that old, at least in Europe. Most seem to be less than 30 years old, and there are plenty less than 10 years old. Many decades old ones don't meet pollution standards, and are sold off to other countries. I've travelled on several ex-European ferries around the world, often still with the signs in Italian or French or whatever. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%26O_Ferries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%26O_Ferries https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stena_Line https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stena_Line https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DFDS_Seaways https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DFDS_Seaways etc, etc.
- mschuster91 3y agoDoesn't really matter. According to a representative of the German Insurer Alliance, most ship fire extinguisher designs are 50 years old, calculated on fire loads of cars common back then... so not respecting any developments since then, from ever heavier cars (more mass, more energy in a fire) over magnesium alloys/components to batteries [1]. [1] https://www.sueddeutsche.de/auto/elektroautos-autofaehren-brandgefahr-1.5750431 https://www.sueddeutsche.de/auto/elektroautos-autofaehren-br...
- seydor 3y agoMore reasons why the batteries should be removeable
- karaterobot 3y agoThis seems like a problem they'll have to solve eventually, and they're just putting it off for now. Fair enough. I wish services like this were more proactive and willing to invest in updating their safety practices and equipment, but sometimes I guess it seems easier to push things out. It's a private company, isn't it? So, they'll feel the pressure, or they won't.
- sorokod 3y agoA freighter carrying nearly 3,000 cars catches fire in the North Sea and a crew member is killed "the vessel was carrying 2,857 cars, including 25 electric cars, making fighting the flames more difficult. " https://apnews.com/article/cargo-ship-fire-netherlands-environment-sea-27535db6880a42084458fee8b10c3592 https://apnews.com/article/cargo-ship-fire-netherlands-envir...
- ThinkBeat 3y agoThis is not surprising There have been a lot of reporting on Lithium batteries catching fire on airplanes. Also, a lot of reports on eBikes and escooters that catch on fire. (So to be consistent the company should ban those as well) Having a huge fire breakout on a ferry is not my idea of a good time. I dont know what the chance is for the fire to spread to other vehicles in the hold but given they are packed like sardines. It would not take much. https://abcnews.go.com/US/4-injured-after-battery-caught-fire-united-flight/story?id=96953705 https://abcnews.go.com/US/4-injured-after-battery-caught-fir... https://www.ctif.org/news/passenger-airplane-made-emergency-landing-after-smokes-filled-cabin-onboard-fire-started https://www.ctif.org/news/passenger-airplane-made-emergency-... https://www.forbes.com/sites/suzannerowankelleher/2023/03/03/faa-lithium-battery-fire-smoke-airplane/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/suzannerowankelleher/2023/03/03....
- dahwolf 3y agoHere's a ferry containing electric cars being on fire as we speak: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmfHC6ZeeNg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmfHC6ZeeNg It will take additional days to extinguish the fire, and then several weeks of monitoring the lithium. You can't get to the batteries since they are specifically enclosed in a way to never get wet. So, this battery may go nuts and burn up the entire vehicle extremely fast, but you don't know when this will happen. All this while, the entire area is unsafe and unusable. If tossing them in the sea is not the sustainable option, the only other way is to submerge them in a specialized container to submerge them into. Which needs to be brought to the ship. In this instance, for 25 vehicles. In the future, about every vehicle.
- cooper45 3y ago[dead]
- projektfu 3y agoWhat's the risk from hybrid and mild hybrid cars to a car ferry? I wonder.