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I've been working remotely for nearly seven years now. I've been able to enjoy all of the typical "firsts" for my youngest two, saved immense amounts of time wi

I've been working remotely for nearly seven years now. I've been able to enjoy all of the typical "firsts" for my youngest two, saved immense amounts of time with no commute, and have been able to pitch in more regarding domestic tasks. I understand and empathize with those that value face-to-face conversations in the office, but for those that don't, remote work is an incredible boon.

dimitrios1 3y ago
I have been working full time remote since Sept 2021 (correction, 2020, just before pandemic). It's not even that I don't value the face-to-face conversations and human interaction, I absolutely do. It just doesn't come close to the immense value I gain by WFH. A side benefit: I was able to move closer to my church community, so my "human interaction" need is being fulfilled richer than ever now. (One of the most frustrating things in all the WFH vs RTO discourse is that there is this false dichotomy being presented. It's either extroverted people who are energized by others, or introverts who'd rather be in the dark closet by themselves. I am as extroverted as they come, and I thrived in the office environment. Still wouldn't trade WFH for the world.)
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  > Sept 2021 (just before pandemic) Are you in Tonga or something?
- thebradbain 3y ago
  Do you mean Sept 2020? I believe everything shutdown (in most US states and European countries) in March 2020. Only wondering because ~3 years versus a little less than 2 years seems like a potentially big difference, so wondering if that feeling of fulfillment has is still going strong that long
  - dimitrios1 3y ago
    Yes! Good catch. The COVID years still all feel like 1 long year..
    - flanbiscuit 3y ago
      Lockdown for me (lived in NYC at the time) started in March of 2020. Curious what country you live in that Sept 2020 was "pre-pandemic" for you? It was already hitting hard in many countries by then.
      - david_shaw 3y ago
        > Curious what country you live in that Sept 2020 was "pre-pandemic" for you? It was already hitting hard in many countries by then. They almost certainly meant September 2019.
        thebradbain 3y ago
        Yup— that’s what I meant. dates and engineers don’t work well together
- wfhBrian 3y ago
  > I was able to move closer to my church community, so my "human interaction" need is being fulfilled richer than ever now. This is what the "but you need human interaction" return-to-office crowd doesn't understand. WFH !== Being alone WFH means surrounding yourself with the people you choose to be around. Whether that's your church community, fellow hobbyists, intramural sports teams, the local co-working space, etc. Plus, that can include "my coworkers" for anyone that wants to make work a bigger part of their life, like those working in startups. However, this should be the exception, not the rule like it has been. It should be your choice...
  - HDThoreaun 3y ago
    I think most of the "but you need human interaction" crowd isn't talking about their social life. It's much harder to collaborate with coworkers when you have no relationship with them. It's not impossible to have a relationship with coworkers when remote, but you have to put a lot more effort in than you would in person. Some companies are facilitating that, but some aren't.
  - ravenstine 3y ago
    Plus it's just easier than ever to meet people outside of work. If there's no existing group for your interest, be the change you want to see and create one. I'm not saying a person will suddenly have a ton of friends, but even in the antisocial world of LA, my Meetup group gets at least a small handful to show up most of the time. I totally get being social with your coworkers as a bonus, but it's a little sad to me that people need to rely on that one source. I can count on one hand the percentage of coworkers whom I've actually kept in contact with after either one left the company. Most coworker relationships are a matter of convenience. If that's what people prefer, then cool, but don't act like there's no such thing as human interaction outside the office.
  - calvinmorrison 3y ago
    Yeah but it's not a choice to work 40ish hours a week talking and communicating for introverts that's pretty taxing. At least in office we had a few laughs and good times and some face to face. Now it's all the soul sucking without any of the benefits like grabbing lunch together or skivving off a meeting and smoking cigarettes behind the dumpster. After 40hr/s having to go out and do even more socializing is hard because i used my socializing juice up at work
- ryneandal 3y ago
  > One of the most frustrating things in all the WFH vs RTO discourse is that there is this false dichotomy being presented. It's either extroverted people who are energized by others, or introverts who'd rather be in the dark closet by themselves. Perfectly stated. I can be quite outgoing when I want to be, and in many of my previous jobs I enjoyed many of my colleagues, but now I can devote my energy to the relationships I value most. I have four kids, time is undoubtedly my most valuable commodity. I don't think I'd be able to foster as many friendships if I was working in an office. I'm sure I'd have friendships with a few colleagues, but WFH enables me to devote myself to friendships as I see fit.
- rjzzleep 3y ago
  I have a question for people here. I absolutely value the time with my daughter and I actually enjoy working for home, I had been for the last couple of years, but it's becoming increasingly unbearable to do that with a nagging and micromanaging partner by my side who's life is COMPLETELY unstructured. So I find myself longing for office time, not because I like office time, but rather because I feel like it might bring back some sanity to the relationship. Am I the only one in that situation? What do you do? It's not like I can structure another individual, it would only work if they themselves recognize that they need structure, which they don't.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    > Am I the only one in that situation? What do you do? What I did (decades ago) was realize that when I was working from home, I needed to treat it the same as working in an office. What that meant was: I need a room that is exclusively "the office". When I'm in there, I'm working. When I'm not working, I'm not in there. And everyone else in the household has to adhere to one rule -- if my office door is closed, they cannot disturb me for any reason other than an actual emergency, just like if I were in an office outside of out home.
    - CoastalCoder 3y ago
      I did this as well. It took a little time, and a few rebukes, for my kids to understand it as a hard rule. But after that it's been smooth sailing. It also helps that I majorly soundproofed my home office. Even well-intentioned kids will won't be silent for the entire work day.
      - freedomben 3y ago
        I should try the soundproofing. 10 years in and the kids still don't leave me alone, and the rebukes were taking a real toll on the relationship. I work part time in a coworking space which has helped a bit, but it's a real struggle.
        3y ago
- JambalayaJim 3y ago
  >(One of the most frustrating things in all the WFH vs RTO discourse is that there is this false dichotomy being presented. It's either extroverted people who are energized by others, or introverts who'd rather be in the dark closet by themselves. I am as extroverted as they come, and I thrived in the office environment. Still wouldn't trade WFH for the world.) I believe the extrovert vs. introvert division is a false dichotomy in the first place. Commute time, environment at home, career seniority - these are the most important factors in this discussion
soseng 3y ago
Your experience almost exactly mirrors my own. I moved from Boston to the Midwest USA in 2016 and kept working remotely until a RIF in 2019. I found a local job that did require a commute but a few months later, we all became remote. In between, I started a family and had 2 kids who have always interacted with me at home. And I am very thankful for that opportunity that many do not have. Our company has since mandated hybrid work now but my team has been categorized as a remote-first distributed group. Now if I go into the office, I would be the only one there. Having said that, I do long for a physical whiteboard where my movements can help me convey my points or understand others better. The current technology is not so adequate in this area yet.. We use google workspaces/chat and meet. I curse it every week..
- bamfly 3y ago
  > The current technology is not so adequate in this area yet.. We use google workspaces/chat and meet. I curse it every week.. I think this is the one place AR/VR is almost ready to really help out. "Teleport" your chair to someone else's space while they "draw" on the "whiteboard" to show you things—with their actual body and hands. Rigs anywhere near good enough to make this non-terrible are gonna be expensive for some time, and maybe don't quite exist yet (but are the one valuable use-case within striking distance of current hardware, I think), sure—but isn't the claim that this kind of interaction is incredibly valuable? Four-figure cost per six-figure worker should be a no brainer, then (unless companies/managers are just bullshitting about that...). And meeting rooms ain't cheap.
  - biomcgary 3y ago
    I'd much rather have Google's Project Starline than traditional AR/VR. It seems perfect to replace in person meetings (no goggles). Unfortunately, that is the only value, whereas AR provides virtual workspaces and is likely cheaper in mass production and space requirments (don't need large screens). Given Google's history, my guess is that Starline is on the chopping block even if showcased at I/O with a scaled back price tag. I hope I'm wrong.
mr_tristan 3y ago
I'm in a similar boat, working remotely since 2017. I don't even have kids, and just enjoy my local parks with my dogs, my wife, etc. My social interaction tends to not involve work, which I actually think is healthy, and gets me away from the echo chambers I've experienced in major tech hubs. My biggest wish, or obstacle, is finding a team that truly values writing. So many times I've sat in meetings where the discussion largely focuses on everyone just clarifying their own ideas. Or status meetings. It's led me to believe that a lot of "in office is better" folks just value the instant gratification of face-to-face conversations. I suspect HN's a community of early adopters, but I'd be curious how that actually plays out over time.
- intrasight 3y ago
  "writing"? They no longer teach it in schools and no longer value it in the workplace. And the two are likely related.
- Scramblejams 3y ago
  FWIW Amazon emphasizes the importance of good writing. Not so remote anymore, though.
- alphanumeric0 3y ago
  I have a coworker who creates work tickets for me and a fair bit of my work time is spent deciphering what they meant in their tickets. It's not uncommon for me to interview him on almost every ticket, writing extensive notes with clarifications on his instructions and to fill in gaps. I don't see anything necessarily wrong with having to write notes. I think that's part of a healthy work process. I just think it happens too often. It's partly due to the fact we do not have a very organized system, but also due to him not valuing writing as a tool to enhance his work.
- sleepychu 3y ago
  My team values writing . We killed our meetings for 2 weeks to see which ones were too painful to live without and retros are the only ones we took back. We've shifted our work discussions almost entirely to async threads on our ticketing system, we frequently hand tickets over between timezones and our manager types can find out what's going on to the nearest couple of hours in a few minutes any time they like. If we need sync conversations (which does happen of course) we record the outcome for async consumption. We do frequent pairing, it can be quite pleasant to spend quite a while on the phone doing work when you don't need to sit in 15 hours of meetings a week! Honestly I'm not sure I could go back. Standups for sure would be a huge turnoff for me at any new job.
Aurornis 3y ago
I've been remote for a similar amount of time. Likewise, I've enjoyed the time saved on commutes. Since COVID I've felt like the dynamic of my remote work experience has changed. I've worked with two remote companies since then and both were struggling with a lot of inexperienced or absent remote workers. Dealing with them on a case-by-case basis is the right call, of course, but it takes a toll on management's trust of remote workers in general. Fortunately I haven't had to install any overly intrusive monitoring software, but I did learn that my company now dedicates a significant amount of business analyst time to analyzing activity of remote employees now. Apparently they had so many problems with remote employees (and their managers!) barely getting any work done that management has soured on remote work in general, so new hires have to be on site unless someone can vouch for them being excellent remote workers. The competition for remote work has also gone way up. Every remote job opening we posted would get literally thousands of applications. The combination of increasing competition for remote jobs and declining sentiment toward remote work (see: Amazon and other big companies) does not bode well for those of us who were successfully working remote for many years, IMO.
- nonethewiser 3y ago
  Remote work was far less common pre Covid though. And its not like it was leas desirable.
  - Aurornis 3y ago
    > Remote work was far less common pre Covid though. That was my point: Remote work was a unique benefit given to those who could handle it. During COVID everyone started pretending that remote work was for everyone. Companies shifted a lot of people remote and then learned the hard way that many people can't be productive remote. Now the pendulum swings back, with companies pretending that nobody can work remote because they let the bad apples spoil the whole batch.
- bluefishinit 3y ago
  > Apparently they had so many problems with remote employees (and their managers!) barely getting any work done This was most likely also happening in the office, it was just masked with the appearance of work in the form of in-person meetings and people zoning out at their desks. When you have a bunch of people in a room together progress grinds to a halt because it becomes completely about performance.
ravenstine 3y ago
There's arguments from both sides of the coin but, though I'm biased having worked remote for almost 5 years now, I think the remote-side usually wins the argument by simply being more reasonable. I see far fewer remote workers claiming that "everyone should work remote" and more in-office workers making sweeping claims that remote reduces creativity, reduces, productivity, or makes people lazy. The anti-remote folks even go as far as dismissing having the time to be around your kids or saving money by not commuting as being trivial benefits. Like, wtf mate? Nobody's telling you not to drive to an office every day. Don't get me wrong, there are some remote fanatics that do the same thing, but they seem far fewer.
- unshavedyak 3y ago
  Completely agree. I've long believed that society is just "wrong" with the work/life balance these days. Socially i think we could drop to 6h days and life would improve dramatically (just looking at home time, that is) for most people. For me, just giving up commutes and being able to do some basic chores on breaks or lunch alone brings a ton of this balance back into check. I work 8h but i gained so much "me" time back that it's like working 6h with a commute. I would give up WFH if needed, but i'd be pushing for 6h days as a trade off. I now feel the added time in my life by not commuting is a massive boon. One that i can't give up. Do i prefer WFH? Yes, i'm on ~8years of it now. But the life that i clawed back by simply not commuting is by far the most valuable thing. One i am never giving up in i have options.
  - ravenstine 3y ago
    It all depends on need. The idea that everything needs to work the same way is unsound. Arguably, the company I work for doesn't need to bring everyone into the office every day; we seem to be doing quite well. Another firm that believes it sees better creativity when people are in the same physical room may be better off not having their workers be remote. And like you say, not every company necessarily gets a benefit from having an 8 hour day. Depending on the nature of the job, the remaining hours of the day can be a diminished return, in which case one might as well give up on the game of charades and just allow their employees to go home.
nonethewiser 3y ago
> I understand and empathize with those that value face-to-face conversations in the office, but for those that don't, remote work is an incredible boon. I value face-to-face time in the office but still prefer remote work and its not even close. It would be nice to have an office very close by and be able to go when I want. But there is nothing good nearby and im not moving.
- riffraff 3y ago
  yeah, I miss lunch with colleagues, but I value not having to change city/country more.
TacticalCoder 3y ago
> saved immense amounts of time with no commute, and have been able to pitch in more regarding domestic tasks Same with my kid. Another big win of remote for me is that I can go where I'm treated best. I can pick a country (anyone could pick my country and I had to welcome them with open hands, so it's only fair game that in exchange I'm allowed to go wherever I feel like going) which welcomes me and my family and where the taxes are reasonable and where the people are nice. I'm at my fourth country in seven years and this time I think the family shall stay for quite a while.
- aa1234556 3y ago
  [dead]
isoprophlex 3y ago
You're an inspiration, and I hope to be able to say the same, seven years from now.
jacobsenscott 3y ago
Remote work has benefits, but it also has significant drawbacks. I say this as someone who as worked exclusively remotely for 15+ years. 1. The quality of remote workers seems to have dropped significantly post pandemic. I think this is because, in the past to work remote at an in-office company you need to be pretty valuable. Now people who can't work well without the structure of an office are able to get remote work and coast. This means the good people are carrying a lot more dead weight. 2. Juniors simply don't learn as much or as quickly in a remote environment. Many of them just go dark when they can't figure something out. 3. Perhaps you save money by not commuting, but my wife and I both work remote. That means our companies have basically colonized 200 square feet of our house rent free. We could be using these rooms for something else. It almost feels like a 3rd amendment violation sometimes.
- twobitshifter 3y ago
  I started a remote job last September but it hasn’t been as good as Covid work at my previous company. The difference is the company structure. The new company is organized regionally with silos and duplicates roles by city/region. This means there’s less natural remote-like communication outside of a given office. Further, my new boss is an extrovert and has found that she can’t stand working from home and prefers the office. I was hired fully remote, but there’s more and more in-office meetings held, where I might be the only person on a giant 96” conference room screen. This really makes remote feel like being an outsider and I feel less involved with the team. My role was supposed to be managing and strategy but it’s more of a taskmaster at this point. I can have one-on-one discussions with leaders, but the decisions are not made in a video call, they’re being made in an office face-to-face. I think if I were a remote contractor this would be fine and I wouldn’t care so much about the dynamic. However, trying to be a genuine employee in a non-remote first and locally focused company is proving difficult.
  - CoastalCoder 3y ago
    I've been the only remote person on a team before. It was a horrible experience. I hope you're able to find a different arrangement soon.
Nickersf 3y ago
I work remote, and we talk about this topic among the team from time to time. One thing I always add to the conversation is the importance of simulating a work day. I wake up 30 minutes before work and get ready. I raise my desk and work standing the first 4.5 hours every day. I greet the team in work chat on the dot, and begin working on tasks for the day. Being successful at remote work as a developer and creative is using the right tools when it comes to collaboration. This means having a good A/V setup that doesn't need regular futzing with to work. Know your OS's sound and camera settings. Know your team tools inside and out. Another thing that I work on daily is better written communication skills, specifically, better commit message, taking that extra 5 minutes to write up a concise PR. Screen capture is another tool I regularly use, and have refined my skills in. I often screenshot things and add drawn and text annotations to highlight important information and supplement with a chat message. That can often help solve problems much faster. I have us all using more digital whiteboarding tools. We're learning what too much or too little Kanban board granularity is. Adjusting workflows both in project management and remote communication is super important. Finding the inefficiencies and efficiencies requires a lot of open-mindedness and humility. We had an employee who wasn't finding success in remote work and I realized a lot of his struggles were with not knowing how to use core desktop publishing and digital communication tools. He was from the save it on your hard drive and email-it-to-me generation. He missed standing at the coffee machine and chatting. He didn't care to learn advanced features of the Google Suite, or get OBS up and running. Those factors combined didn't help him succeed in remote work. It was unfortunate to see. One thing that can be done to positively influence opponents of remote work, in your organization or in the industry in general is emphasizing the importance of core modern computer literacy. I think that being a highly productive remote employee requires one to develop and maintain a high degree of core computer literacy (using office productivity tools, communication software, and managing A/V hardware).
agumonkey 3y ago
The no commute part is so powerful man. At times I get bored (I now know 70% of my area in a 5km radius) but god the added bedtime and road / train free life is really a damn luxury.

dimitrios1 3y ago

I have been working full time remote since Sept 2021 (correction, 2020, just before pandemic). It's not even that I don't value the face-to-face conversations and human interaction, I absolutely do. It just doesn't come close to the immense value I gain by WFH. A side benefit: I was able to move closer to my church community, so my "human interaction" need is being fulfilled richer than ever now. (One of the most frustrating things in all the WFH vs RTO discourse is that there is this false dichotomy being presented. It's either extroverted people who are energized by others, or introverts who'd rather be in the dark closet by themselves. I am as extroverted as they come, and I thrived in the office environment. Still wouldn't trade WFH for the world.)

ceejayoz 3y ago
> Sept 2021 (just before pandemic) Are you in Tonga or something?
thebradbain 3y ago
Do you mean Sept 2020? I believe everything shutdown (in most US states and European countries) in March 2020. Only wondering because ~3 years versus a little less than 2 years seems like a potentially big difference, so wondering if that feeling of fulfillment has is still going strong that long
- dimitrios1 3y ago
  Yes! Good catch. The COVID years still all feel like 1 long year..
  - flanbiscuit 3y ago
    Lockdown for me (lived in NYC at the time) started in March of 2020. Curious what country you live in that Sept 2020 was "pre-pandemic" for you? It was already hitting hard in many countries by then.
    - david_shaw 3y ago
      > Curious what country you live in that Sept 2020 was "pre-pandemic" for you? It was already hitting hard in many countries by then. They almost certainly meant September 2019.
      - thebradbain 3y ago
        Yup— that’s what I meant. dates and engineers don’t work well together
wfhBrian 3y ago
> I was able to move closer to my church community, so my "human interaction" need is being fulfilled richer than ever now. This is what the "but you need human interaction" return-to-office crowd doesn't understand. WFH !== Being alone WFH means surrounding yourself with the people you choose to be around. Whether that's your church community, fellow hobbyists, intramural sports teams, the local co-working space, etc. Plus, that can include "my coworkers" for anyone that wants to make work a bigger part of their life, like those working in startups. However, this should be the exception, not the rule like it has been. It should be your choice...
- HDThoreaun 3y ago
  I think most of the "but you need human interaction" crowd isn't talking about their social life. It's much harder to collaborate with coworkers when you have no relationship with them. It's not impossible to have a relationship with coworkers when remote, but you have to put a lot more effort in than you would in person. Some companies are facilitating that, but some aren't.
- ravenstine 3y ago
  Plus it's just easier than ever to meet people outside of work. If there's no existing group for your interest, be the change you want to see and create one. I'm not saying a person will suddenly have a ton of friends, but even in the antisocial world of LA, my Meetup group gets at least a small handful to show up most of the time. I totally get being social with your coworkers as a bonus, but it's a little sad to me that people need to rely on that one source. I can count on one hand the percentage of coworkers whom I've actually kept in contact with after either one left the company. Most coworker relationships are a matter of convenience. If that's what people prefer, then cool, but don't act like there's no such thing as human interaction outside the office.
- calvinmorrison 3y ago
  Yeah but it's not a choice to work 40ish hours a week talking and communicating for introverts that's pretty taxing. At least in office we had a few laughs and good times and some face to face. Now it's all the soul sucking without any of the benefits like grabbing lunch together or skivving off a meeting and smoking cigarettes behind the dumpster. After 40hr/s having to go out and do even more socializing is hard because i used my socializing juice up at work
ryneandal 3y ago
> One of the most frustrating things in all the WFH vs RTO discourse is that there is this false dichotomy being presented. It's either extroverted people who are energized by others, or introverts who'd rather be in the dark closet by themselves. Perfectly stated. I can be quite outgoing when I want to be, and in many of my previous jobs I enjoyed many of my colleagues, but now I can devote my energy to the relationships I value most. I have four kids, time is undoubtedly my most valuable commodity. I don't think I'd be able to foster as many friendships if I was working in an office. I'm sure I'd have friendships with a few colleagues, but WFH enables me to devote myself to friendships as I see fit.
rjzzleep 3y ago
I have a question for people here. I absolutely value the time with my daughter and I actually enjoy working for home, I had been for the last couple of years, but it's becoming increasingly unbearable to do that with a nagging and micromanaging partner by my side who's life is COMPLETELY unstructured. So I find myself longing for office time, not because I like office time, but rather because I feel like it might bring back some sanity to the relationship. Am I the only one in that situation? What do you do? It's not like I can structure another individual, it would only work if they themselves recognize that they need structure, which they don't.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  > Am I the only one in that situation? What do you do? What I did (decades ago) was realize that when I was working from home, I needed to treat it the same as working in an office. What that meant was: I need a room that is exclusively "the office". When I'm in there, I'm working. When I'm not working, I'm not in there. And everyone else in the household has to adhere to one rule -- if my office door is closed, they cannot disturb me for any reason other than an actual emergency, just like if I were in an office outside of out home.
  - CoastalCoder 3y ago
    I did this as well. It took a little time, and a few rebukes, for my kids to understand it as a hard rule. But after that it's been smooth sailing. It also helps that I majorly soundproofed my home office. Even well-intentioned kids will won't be silent for the entire work day.
    - freedomben 3y ago
      I should try the soundproofing. 10 years in and the kids still don't leave me alone, and the rebukes were taking a real toll on the relationship. I work part time in a coworking space which has helped a bit, but it's a real struggle.
      - 3y ago
JambalayaJim 3y ago
>(One of the most frustrating things in all the WFH vs RTO discourse is that there is this false dichotomy being presented. It's either extroverted people who are energized by others, or introverts who'd rather be in the dark closet by themselves. I am as extroverted as they come, and I thrived in the office environment. Still wouldn't trade WFH for the world.) I believe the extrovert vs. introvert division is a false dichotomy in the first place. Commute time, environment at home, career seniority - these are the most important factors in this discussion

soseng 3y ago

Your experience almost exactly mirrors my own. I moved from Boston to the Midwest USA in 2016 and kept working remotely until a RIF in 2019. I found a local job that did require a commute but a few months later, we all became remote. In between, I started a family and had 2 kids who have always interacted with me at home. And I am very thankful for that opportunity that many do not have. Our company has since mandated hybrid work now but my team has been categorized as a remote-first distributed group. Now if I go into the office, I would be the only one there. Having said that, I do long for a physical whiteboard where my movements can help me convey my points or understand others better. The current technology is not so adequate in this area yet.. We use google workspaces/chat and meet. I curse it every week..

bamfly 3y ago
> The current technology is not so adequate in this area yet.. We use google workspaces/chat and meet. I curse it every week.. I think this is the one place AR/VR is almost ready to really help out. "Teleport" your chair to someone else's space while they "draw" on the "whiteboard" to show you things—with their actual body and hands. Rigs anywhere near good enough to make this non-terrible are gonna be expensive for some time, and maybe don't quite exist yet (but are the one valuable use-case within striking distance of current hardware, I think), sure—but isn't the claim that this kind of interaction is incredibly valuable? Four-figure cost per six-figure worker should be a no brainer, then (unless companies/managers are just bullshitting about that...). And meeting rooms ain't cheap.
- biomcgary 3y ago
  I'd much rather have Google's Project Starline than traditional AR/VR. It seems perfect to replace in person meetings (no goggles). Unfortunately, that is the only value, whereas AR provides virtual workspaces and is likely cheaper in mass production and space requirments (don't need large screens). Given Google's history, my guess is that Starline is on the chopping block even if showcased at I/O with a scaled back price tag. I hope I'm wrong.

mr_tristan 3y ago

I'm in a similar boat, working remotely since 2017. I don't even have kids, and just enjoy my local parks with my dogs, my wife, etc. My social interaction tends to not involve work, which I actually think is healthy, and gets me away from the echo chambers I've experienced in major tech hubs. My biggest wish, or obstacle, is finding a team that truly values writing. So many times I've sat in meetings where the discussion largely focuses on everyone just clarifying their own ideas. Or status meetings. It's led me to believe that a lot of "in office is better" folks just value the instant gratification of face-to-face conversations. I suspect HN's a community of early adopters, but I'd be curious how that actually plays out over time.

intrasight 3y ago
"writing"? They no longer teach it in schools and no longer value it in the workplace. And the two are likely related.
Scramblejams 3y ago
FWIW Amazon emphasizes the importance of good writing. Not so remote anymore, though.
alphanumeric0 3y ago
I have a coworker who creates work tickets for me and a fair bit of my work time is spent deciphering what they meant in their tickets. It's not uncommon for me to interview him on almost every ticket, writing extensive notes with clarifications on his instructions and to fill in gaps. I don't see anything necessarily wrong with having to write notes. I think that's part of a healthy work process. I just think it happens too often. It's partly due to the fact we do not have a very organized system, but also due to him not valuing writing as a tool to enhance his work.
sleepychu 3y ago
My team values writing . We killed our meetings for 2 weeks to see which ones were too painful to live without and retros are the only ones we took back. We've shifted our work discussions almost entirely to async threads on our ticketing system, we frequently hand tickets over between timezones and our manager types can find out what's going on to the nearest couple of hours in a few minutes any time they like. If we need sync conversations (which does happen of course) we record the outcome for async consumption. We do frequent pairing, it can be quite pleasant to spend quite a while on the phone doing work when you don't need to sit in 15 hours of meetings a week! Honestly I'm not sure I could go back. Standups for sure would be a huge turnoff for me at any new job.

Aurornis 3y ago

I've been remote for a similar amount of time. Likewise, I've enjoyed the time saved on commutes. Since COVID I've felt like the dynamic of my remote work experience has changed. I've worked with two remote companies since then and both were struggling with a lot of inexperienced or absent remote workers. Dealing with them on a case-by-case basis is the right call, of course, but it takes a toll on management's trust of remote workers in general. Fortunately I haven't had to install any overly intrusive monitoring software, but I did learn that my company now dedicates a significant amount of business analyst time to analyzing activity of remote employees now. Apparently they had so many problems with remote employees (and their managers!) barely getting any work done that management has soured on remote work in general, so new hires have to be on site unless someone can vouch for them being excellent remote workers. The competition for remote work has also gone way up. Every remote job opening we posted would get literally thousands of applications. The combination of increasing competition for remote jobs and declining sentiment toward remote work (see: Amazon and other big companies) does not bode well for those of us who were successfully working remote for many years, IMO.

nonethewiser 3y ago
Remote work was far less common pre Covid though. And its not like it was leas desirable.
- Aurornis 3y ago
  > Remote work was far less common pre Covid though. That was my point: Remote work was a unique benefit given to those who could handle it. During COVID everyone started pretending that remote work was for everyone. Companies shifted a lot of people remote and then learned the hard way that many people can't be productive remote. Now the pendulum swings back, with companies pretending that nobody can work remote because they let the bad apples spoil the whole batch.
bluefishinit 3y ago
> Apparently they had so many problems with remote employees (and their managers!) barely getting any work done This was most likely also happening in the office, it was just masked with the appearance of work in the form of in-person meetings and people zoning out at their desks. When you have a bunch of people in a room together progress grinds to a halt because it becomes completely about performance.

ravenstine 3y ago

There's arguments from both sides of the coin but, though I'm biased having worked remote for almost 5 years now, I think the remote-side usually wins the argument by simply being more reasonable. I see far fewer remote workers claiming that "everyone should work remote" and more in-office workers making sweeping claims that remote reduces creativity, reduces, productivity, or makes people lazy. The anti-remote folks even go as far as dismissing having the time to be around your kids or saving money by not commuting as being trivial benefits. Like, wtf mate? Nobody's telling you not to drive to an office every day. Don't get me wrong, there are some remote fanatics that do the same thing, but they seem far fewer.

unshavedyak 3y ago
Completely agree. I've long believed that society is just "wrong" with the work/life balance these days. Socially i think we could drop to 6h days and life would improve dramatically (just looking at home time, that is) for most people. For me, just giving up commutes and being able to do some basic chores on breaks or lunch alone brings a ton of this balance back into check. I work 8h but i gained so much "me" time back that it's like working 6h with a commute. I would give up WFH if needed, but i'd be pushing for 6h days as a trade off. I now feel the added time in my life by not commuting is a massive boon. One that i can't give up. Do i prefer WFH? Yes, i'm on ~8years of it now. But the life that i clawed back by simply not commuting is by far the most valuable thing. One i am never giving up in i have options.
- ravenstine 3y ago
  It all depends on need. The idea that everything needs to work the same way is unsound. Arguably, the company I work for doesn't need to bring everyone into the office every day; we seem to be doing quite well. Another firm that believes it sees better creativity when people are in the same physical room may be better off not having their workers be remote. And like you say, not every company necessarily gets a benefit from having an 8 hour day. Depending on the nature of the job, the remaining hours of the day can be a diminished return, in which case one might as well give up on the game of charades and just allow their employees to go home.

nonethewiser 3y ago

> I understand and empathize with those that value face-to-face conversations in the office, but for those that don't, remote work is an incredible boon. I value face-to-face time in the office but still prefer remote work and its not even close. It would be nice to have an office very close by and be able to go when I want. But there is nothing good nearby and im not moving.

riffraff 3y ago
yeah, I miss lunch with colleagues, but I value not having to change city/country more.

TacticalCoder 3y ago

> saved immense amounts of time with no commute, and have been able to pitch in more regarding domestic tasks Same with my kid. Another big win of remote for me is that I can go where I'm treated best. I can pick a country (anyone could pick my country and I had to welcome them with open hands, so it's only fair game that in exchange I'm allowed to go wherever I feel like going) which welcomes me and my family and where the taxes are reasonable and where the people are nice. I'm at my fourth country in seven years and this time I think the family shall stay for quite a while.

aa1234556 3y ago
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isoprophlex 3y ago

You're an inspiration, and I hope to be able to say the same, seven years from now.

jacobsenscott 3y ago

Remote work has benefits, but it also has significant drawbacks. I say this as someone who as worked exclusively remotely for 15+ years. 1. The quality of remote workers seems to have dropped significantly post pandemic. I think this is because, in the past to work remote at an in-office company you need to be pretty valuable. Now people who can't work well without the structure of an office are able to get remote work and coast. This means the good people are carrying a lot more dead weight. 2. Juniors simply don't learn as much or as quickly in a remote environment. Many of them just go dark when they can't figure something out. 3. Perhaps you save money by not commuting, but my wife and I both work remote. That means our companies have basically colonized 200 square feet of our house rent free. We could be using these rooms for something else. It almost feels like a 3rd amendment violation sometimes.

twobitshifter 3y ago
I started a remote job last September but it hasn’t been as good as Covid work at my previous company. The difference is the company structure. The new company is organized regionally with silos and duplicates roles by city/region. This means there’s less natural remote-like communication outside of a given office. Further, my new boss is an extrovert and has found that she can’t stand working from home and prefers the office. I was hired fully remote, but there’s more and more in-office meetings held, where I might be the only person on a giant 96” conference room screen. This really makes remote feel like being an outsider and I feel less involved with the team. My role was supposed to be managing and strategy but it’s more of a taskmaster at this point. I can have one-on-one discussions with leaders, but the decisions are not made in a video call, they’re being made in an office face-to-face. I think if I were a remote contractor this would be fine and I wouldn’t care so much about the dynamic. However, trying to be a genuine employee in a non-remote first and locally focused company is proving difficult.
- CoastalCoder 3y ago
  I've been the only remote person on a team before. It was a horrible experience. I hope you're able to find a different arrangement soon.

Nickersf 3y ago

I work remote, and we talk about this topic among the team from time to time. One thing I always add to the conversation is the importance of simulating a work day. I wake up 30 minutes before work and get ready. I raise my desk and work standing the first 4.5 hours every day. I greet the team in work chat on the dot, and begin working on tasks for the day. Being successful at remote work as a developer and creative is using the right tools when it comes to collaboration. This means having a good A/V setup that doesn't need regular futzing with to work. Know your OS's sound and camera settings. Know your team tools inside and out. Another thing that I work on daily is better written communication skills, specifically, better commit message, taking that extra 5 minutes to write up a concise PR. Screen capture is another tool I regularly use, and have refined my skills in. I often screenshot things and add drawn and text annotations to highlight important information and supplement with a chat message. That can often help solve problems much faster. I have us all using more digital whiteboarding tools. We're learning what too much or too little Kanban board granularity is. Adjusting workflows both in project management and remote communication is super important. Finding the inefficiencies and efficiencies requires a lot of open-mindedness and humility. We had an employee who wasn't finding success in remote work and I realized a lot of his struggles were with not knowing how to use core desktop publishing and digital communication tools. He was from the save it on your hard drive and email-it-to-me generation. He missed standing at the coffee machine and chatting. He didn't care to learn advanced features of the Google Suite, or get OBS up and running. Those factors combined didn't help him succeed in remote work. It was unfortunate to see. One thing that can be done to positively influence opponents of remote work, in your organization or in the industry in general is emphasizing the importance of core modern computer literacy. I think that being a highly productive remote employee requires one to develop and maintain a high degree of core computer literacy (using office productivity tools, communication software, and managing A/V hardware).

agumonkey 3y ago

The no commute part is so powerful man. At times I get bored (I now know 70% of my area in a 5km radius) but god the added bedtime and road / train free life is really a damn luxury.