14 ms·

Important Coding Habits

315 points by tagawa 3y ago

agentultra 3y ago
Too true. I’ve come to particularly dislike the way we design computing devices and interfaces. They ruin our bodies and require exceptions to accommodate people with different capabilities. And to afford those accommodations is a privilege many do not have access to. The best thing we can do is spend less time in front of them.
- bhdlr 3y ago
  > Too true. I’ve come to particularly dislike the way we design computing devices and interfaces. They ruin our bodies and require exceptions to accommodate people with different capabilities. And to afford those accommodations is a privilege many do not have access to. > The best thing we can do is spend less time in front of them. While I think this is great advice, the author of the article lost all credibility as soon as he mentioned a chiropractor
  - bigmattystyles 3y ago
    Same here - how they are allowed to continue to be a trade is beyond me. My friend is a neurosurgeon and has more than a few stories about times she's had to fix or more often, mitigate, damage done by chiropractors. But at the same time, nothing is done about other quacks like supplements, homeopathy, etc...
    - plagiarist 3y ago
      Be careful, if you get too close to supporting medical regulations and evidence-based medicine, you will awaken the crowd who thinks vaccines are poison and quacks should be allowed to sell ivermectin for every ailment. Surely Tim Ferris should be allowed to sell supplements because the free market is absolutely perfect (unless a member of the free market is deciding to enforce masks as a condition of entry or something).
      - damagednoob 3y ago
        I don't want to ban things like homeopathy and chiropractors but I have seen them attached to government hospitals in the UK. Chiropractic treatment should not be funded by the public.
pininja 3y ago
At first I thought this would be about technical habits, but I’m glad it’s actually about longevity.
necessary 3y ago
As someone who has been feeling various back pains at the ripe old age of 25, I appreciate this article greatly.
- the_only_law 3y ago
  I don’t know what happened, but a couple weeks ago, I was sitting on the couch when I suddenly had a sharp pain shoot through the right side of my body. It subsided after a few seconds, but for a week I had a persistent pain in my side, around my right rib cage and behind the shoulder blade. At first I thought it was something really bad, like an organ issue. It hurt just to lay down in bed at night. Only thing that seemed to give any relief were really tense stretches. It ended up going away after that week, and at this point I assume I must have just pulled some muscle in a bad way, but I certainly didn’t think I was old enough to have back issues like that.
  - techno_tsar 3y ago
    Sounds awful. I’ve done the same once, in college, reaching for a shower curtain. I genuinely thought I was too young to experience issues like that. Could also be a nerve thing. Sometimes my upper back and shoulders compresses a nerve and it ends up shooting into my elbow. I herniated a disc at 21 and that was just from bad posture, I was sitting on the couch as well and as I was getting up I felt a terribly electric pain shoot from my lower right back to my leg. It took years for it to be better and I’ve aggravated it several times. On one occasion the pain was so bad it requires a hospital trip, where their best advice was physio and to stay active. Rest and a sedentary lifestyle is disastrous if you’re prone to back injuries. Even now, although I’m very active, just sitting in the same spot for an hour triggers piriformis syndrome. Quite literally a pain in the ass that affects my hips.
- malux85 3y ago
  Standing desk
- locuscoeruleus 3y ago
  I had all sorts of random pains throughout my back/arms. After I started climbing almost everything disappeared. Being forced to stretch your hands above your body a few days a week is probably healthy for a programmer.
baremetal 3y ago
I do body weight exercises and stretch every day. They are easy to do during breaks from coding, and don't require any special equipment. I am really fond of the L-sit as it works so many muscle groups and makes for a strong core. It's something you may have to work up to though. I also meditate. It is great for concentration and overall well-being.
- progbits 3y ago
  https://stretch15.com/ https://stretch15.com/ is nice low effort way to start stretching. It was on HN few months ago and since then I do it almost every day. I've been going to the gym for a long time but proper stretching is something I never paid attention to.
yellow_lead 3y ago
> According to my chiropractor, sitting for long periods of time had led to my stomach and thigh muscles being relatively unused, and therefore unable to assist my back in supporting my body, putting it under extra strain. This is reasonable - getting up often and walking or stretching is good for you. However I wouldn't rely on chiropractors for medical advice.
- PartiallyTyped 3y ago
  And you know … working out, lifting weights, walking for a while.
- winrid 3y ago
  You need to work out or you'll turn into a potato that can't support your own upper body. You'll end up with all kinds of medical and joint issues.
- tagawa 3y ago
  Thanks for the tip. I think I used the wrong term in the post (now updated). I live in Japan and go to a 接骨院 which I assumed was chiropractor, but osteopath is probably a better translation. I should have researched before posting.
  - yellow_lead 3y ago
    Understand, thanks for clarifying/updating.
laeri 3y ago
Totally agree, either physical or mental health problems is the most dangerous risk we face. Doing or not doing something over a long period of time can have serious consequences.
politelemon 3y ago
I think there's on assumption being made here which ought to be challenged. Laptops are widely used, but they are not great coding environments. They were created to enable portability, but the way it mostly gets used promotes terrible habits, posture, handpositions, viewing angles, all of the above. If given a choice I would opt for a desktop and live with the portability restrictions it comes with. Of course it is an increasingly uncommon choice. The next best thing is to use the laptop docked but closed, and have separate peripherals: monitors, keyboard, mouse.
- lacrimacida 3y ago
  Yeah, I agee with the problems laptop use can create. I do use a decent laptop but use it as a desktop with eye level monitor and external keyboard attached. I found that positioning the keybord close to my body with a table height slightly above my sitting thighs such that the elbows are close to the body is the best ergonomics I could find and any back/neck/shoulder aches I used to get in my 20s and 30s have nearly vanished completely. My only problem is my butt getting tired of sitting on a chair and use it as an excuse to take breaks. Not sure if this position is universal, I did find it through experimentstion and I encourage evryone to test out various positions and to avoid using laptops for extended periods of time, it is really bad and could also create poor sitting habits that extend beyond the computer.
- jauntywundrkind 3y ago
  Laptops are actually kind of ok just not how people use them. ;) Elevate & decoupled! Raise the screen. Use a Bluetooth keyboard. Stop staring down! Ideally one can rig up a way to get the keyboard under the laptop. That's rough though, not always easy (some soda cans & cardboard... Where there's a will!). Often I end up with my laptop on my adventure pack and the keyboard in front (or on my lap). I used to just use tablet style 2-in-1's, which rock: the Tryone gooseneck arm (or many others) let's you hover the screen in really nice position, wherever you want. I was pretty fine having a decently hidpi 11-12 inch screen positioned close in, but I have really wanted a bigger 2-in-1 I could work with. I miss 2013 when there was the bigger bigger bigger push for tablets: we are creeping back up, but the bold 18.4 beasts of that age were I hope only a bit too soon. It all comea down to!: > Improve your coding environment
jauntywundrkind 3y ago
> Don’t code late at night Big disagree fore. For me, code comes much easier in the deep of the night. I can just write, and it's fine, where-as during the day I get distracted by side quests & perfectionism. I think regularly of PKD writing I think in VALIS trilogy about the heat of the palm tree garden (of Eden), waves of heat making us languid. And then the night, the absence of god's light, humans unwatched, free, unburdened. The contrast has resonated with me for so long, the relief from pressures of the day, unburdened freedom. I feel it, I feel freer, as I code deeper into the night.
- PartiallyTyped 3y ago
  What I love the most about coding at night is that I am more creative, and everything flows better.
- eyelidlessness 3y ago
  I think it might be better generalized as “don’t code for some daily period of extended downtime”, or even more generalized as “take one very long break between work days”. Even that won’t necessarily apply to everyone, but for most people it’s a more healthy habit than cranking for >10 hours a day or similar overwork.
brycelarkin 3y ago
I try to incorporate deadlifts into my workouts twice a week to prevent this. Lower back pain is scary. During covid, when the gyms were closed, I couldn’t do deadlifts and felt the back pain coming. Thankfully everything opened up.
- bdcravens 3y ago
  I also have a medical condition that has caused degenerative arthritis in the lower back. I find that if I'm seated in anything but an Aeron I can't remain seated for long. I suspect it's less the brand than the mesh with some give. However, since I know the brand, I happily spent the $1300 for my home setup. (I also sprung for an Uplift standing desk)
- exhilaration 3y ago
  Deadlifts are the best, not just for the back benefits but for hand strength as well - my wrist pain is a distant memory now.
- moneywoes 3y ago
  Ironically I hurt my back attempting dead lifts. Perhaps the form was poor
natsucks 3y ago
I'm hoping that a potential transition from monitors to AR glasses will substantially alleviate some of these issues.
- ComodoHacker 3y ago
  I'm also hoping LLM burst enable reliable voice input for code.
vmoore 3y ago
I never liked the seated, sedentary nature of programming. Over time though, I've forced myself to take regular breaks, say every 10 minutes to straighten out my spine, and every 60 mins I go for a longish walk to clear my head and repair my back. Any hard problems or puzzles I encountered usually get solved when walking, as my brain is in a different state and can problem-solve better. There are ergonomic items you can buy for a home-lab situation or maybe the office splurged out on Herman Miller chairs, but no amount of ergonomic items (Vertical Mouse etc) will solve the sitting down problem. You have to do pattern interrupts and frequent (reparative) breaks. This is known to increase productivity. If you're in your twenties you can probably get away with long sessions sitting down without major issues, but over time, sitting /will/ affect you if you're not doing interrupts and exercising/repairing yourself.
- cuddlecake 3y ago
  What do you do, when you straighten out your spine? I mean in terms of movement, or do you just change your posture?
  - fifilura 3y ago
    Basic yoga moves are fantastic for this. Sun salutations with downward and upward dog. They also strengthen your core. There are more moves in the Ashtanga sequence, whenever I do it I get a feeling of my discs being stretched and exercised like a rubber ball.
  - idle_processor 3y ago
    Stuart McGill recommends periodically standing and stretching your arms over your head a couple times. You can see the motion demonstrated here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bcbuhePZZj0&t=459s https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bcbuhePZZj0&t=459s He also recommended doing the cat-cow from yoga, and there's a set of exercises referred to as the McGill big 3. I've seen some positive references to the McKenzie method book, Treat Your Own Back. I haven't tried it specifically, but had good luck with their equivalent book for neck treatment.
  - molsongolden 3y ago
danjc 3y ago
Keen to here whether anyone here uses a exercise/sitting ball at a desk as a way to improve posture?
- Given_47 3y ago
  Yea I’ve always been curious about those. Any time I’ve tried one out, I end up sitting all hunched over, so I’m obviously doing something wrong but wondering as well
AnimalMuppet 3y ago
Don't forget your hands! You don't think of programmers as "people who work with their hands", but we really are. (So are surgeons, by the way.) I typed too hard for a few decades because I began on some really stiff keyboards. That has not been good for my fingers. You shouldn't hit keys harder than you need to, because if you multiply that by a few decades the impacts on your joints and tendons add up to damage. If your fingers hurt after a day of coding, pay attention. Wrist angle matters. Carpal tunnel is no fun. (So far, I have been spared that.) Pay attention to strain on your wrists as you type. If there is some, think about your geometry, and how you can change it. One of the things I despise about laptops is that their keyboards are too small for my hands. For serious work, I need a full-sized keyboard. So when you think about ergonomics, don't forget your hands. (And don't forget your eyes. Look away from the monitor to something at least 20 feet away, for at least 20 seconds, regularly. I forget what the recommendation is - every 20 minutes, or every 2 hours, or something. But regularly.)
- hommelix 3y ago
  I can recommend workrave. It reminds me to take breaks and propose stretching or looking further than the monitor. https://workrave.org/ https://workrave.org/
block_dagger 3y ago
I was confined to a supine workstation for a similar reason. Thankfully, changing my habits allowed a nearly full recover, albeit years long. I wrote about my setup, only slightly out of date: https://medium.com/@jcraigk/healthy-hacking-diy-supine-workstation-cbaadcbbc2aa https://medium.com/@jcraigk/healthy-hacking-diy-supine-works...
Thoeu388 3y ago
This article is pretty clueless, as most people. Backbone is hugely supported by muscles. Slipped disc basically means there were no muscles to prevent it. Posture, healthy lifestyle etc is hugely irrelevant. Also typical exercise like running, lifting etc does not help. As a developer, you should train torso muscles to protect your backbone. Pretty complicated regime, you need good personal trainer for that.
- dilyevsky 3y ago
  Are you saying deadlifts don’t train torso muscles?
  - Thoeu388 3y ago
    No, I am saying it does not help typical developer. My personal opinion is that it is damaging joints (including spine discs). My trainer also does not recommend it. But I am not really qualified on this subject.
    - dilyevsky 3y ago
      > No, I am saying it does not help typical developer. What's a "typical developer"? If we are talking today then typical developer is just typical white-collar employee. I see many of those in my gym, some of them even use it correctly (that is they get in, do deadlifts, and get out =)) > My personal opinion is that it is damaging joints (including spine discs). My trainer also does not recommend it. But I am not really qualified on this subject. Well you should get a second opinion. Obviously I don't know your personal history but for most "typical developers" if you get some coaching, use trap bar, don't go to failure or 1rm and don't use straps, it's super safe.
    - dasil003 3y ago
      Squats and deadlifts are unequaled in terms of core strength development, and they are also some of the most natural human motions that any toddler naturally picks up as they learn to walk upright. I agree doing them with heavy weights can be risky for a typical sedentary adult, but they need not be feared. Performed correctly, the load goes into your muscles, not joints, but you have to learn how to engage your core muscles and maintain tension through the whole kinetic chain. The best way to do this is to get a knowledgeable coach and build up slowly starting with no weight until you have the basic movement and coordination well established.
planetjones 3y ago
I have suffered the same. The pain from the sciatica was unlike anything I had ever experienced. Excruciating doesn’t even begin to describe it. The McKenzie exercises every morning since have undoubtedly helped my recovery. As has giving up running.
pkkm 3y ago
> laptop The author buried the lede. Using a bare laptop all day will damage your health. To achieve an ergonomic posture [0], you have to be looking straight forward (or close to that) while your elbows are low and bent at an obtuse angle. This is impossible with a laptop, unless you basically turn it into a desktop by connecting it to an external keyboard, mouse, and monitor(s). Theoretically, you could use a laptop stand instead of an external monitor, but I've found that the letters on a laptop screen are small enough that they make me reflexively crane my neck forward. Time spent using a laptop without external peripherals should be limited just like vibration and noise exposure is. You're always straining either your shoulders, your neck, or both. It's surprising to me that the author is looking into niche products like sit-stand desks before having addressed the obvious problem that would be pointed out by any ergonomics resource on the Internet. It reminds me of the phrase, "don't major in the minors". [0] https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/blog/7-things-you-need-for-an-ergonomically-correct-workstation/ https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/blog/7-things-you-need-fo...
- kwanbix 3y ago
  I connect my ThinkPad P51 to two external monitors, an external trackpoing keyboard 2, and a logitech trackpad. It works perfect, and if i need to work on the road, I just disconnect it and take it with me.
  - Sardtok 3y ago
    Trackpads are horrible. Gives me way more strain than using a mouse, even though I have relatively small hands, I find the larger Logitech mice very comfortable in use. Currently using a MX Master 3, after switching from the original MX Master. Before that I had frequently recurring tendonitis in my right index finger and various pains in my lower right arm. I still occasionally have issues, but nothing like when I used to use a trackpad. I've never tried using an external trackpad. I suppose it could alleviate some of the issues, but I highly suspect my tendonitis would still come back.
  - xeonmc 3y ago
    > Has a thinkpad > Uses an external trackpad ??? Why not just use the thinkpad with the lid half-open?
ecshafer 3y ago
I don't understand how people use laptops for extended periods of time. The only comfortable way to use a laptop is with an external monitor, keyboard and mouse. The author talks about ergonomics but still uses a laptop. Laptops are for doing work on a plane or taking to a hotel room when traveling, not for being a daily driver in my book (at least not without peripherals). The keyboard on laptops is too close together, the screen is at the wrong height and angle. Trackpads are disastrous. Using a laptop for 8 hours feels like the day after running a marathon but without any of the good parts.
- nordsieck 3y ago
  > Trackpads are disastrous. Why do you say that? I know quite a few people who use an external trackpad with a desktop setup and they seem to do pretty well with it.
  - ecshafer 3y ago
    I don't know about an external one. But the standard track pad is in the center of the screen/keyboard layout and quite close to your body. Its non-ergonomic.
    - coufu 3y ago
      I’ve been using trackpad primarily with my thumb for about 6 years now. Obviously I have to use other fingers sometimes to scroll and drag though. I find a mouse slows me down when I have to take my hands off the keyboard to use the mouse. This is coming from a vim enthusiast (worth mentioning in this context since a big benefit of using vim is how much time is saved by not taking hands off the keyboard).
- dividedbyzero 3y ago
  I use an external Apple trackpad and it's been a relief for my right arm, I only use a mouse for gaming anymore as game-specific muscle memory doesn't seem to translate well. It does feel very ergonomic to me, almost on par with a vertical mouse, but those are always too big for my hands. I get why people wouldn't want to do that with Windows laptop trackpads though, not to speak of Linux, which seems to really struggle with trackpads.
BodyCulture 3y ago
Just a little thing but it would help a lot if terminal input lines were at the top of the screen by default.
- gjvc 3y ago
  pressing ctrl-L often helps with that
sudosteph 3y ago
Quick question I like to ask to remote workers who have worked in office environments before: Do you find your ergonomics are better or worse since switching to working at home? Or the same? I've heard it both ways, but for me it's been harder to keep up healthy ergo habits at home. Not sure if it was peer pressure in the office that kept me using my standing desk better or what, but I definitely have slipped and my posture is noticeably worse lately.
- isoprophlex 3y ago
  At home I can fuck off on a walk whenever I want, or do calls walking, I have a nice standing desk, the food is always healthy, I can take a hot shower when my neck hurts or go on a run when fidgety, the chair is always set up correctly if I want to sit, there's nice window blinds against glare, there's a balcony to inhale fresh air and look in the distance... Whereas office means trains, so cramped seating and touching a laptop, or driving a car thru obnoxious traffic jams. I think WFH is much healthier for me.
  - sudosteph 3y ago
    Ah, the commute may be the thing I'm not accounting for. My last office jobs were about a mile walk from my apartment, so I actually got more movement and fresh air as part of my daily routine. Agreed that car and train time seem less than ideal.
lordnacho 3y ago
Weirdly I don't seem to have the two main problems that coders report: back pain and hand/wrist pain. I always keep a straight posture. Either I'm standing, or I'm sitting with my back straight. I make sure I don't slouch, because that's what causes pain. Used to feel natural to slouch, but now it feels natural to puff my chest out. Also, walking on a treadmill while reading makes it impossible to slouch. With my wrists, I'm not sure I get it. Surely people are not actually typing all the time? I spend a lot of time looking at the code by using the touchpad. A lot of slidey-two-fingers to scroll the text. But also I hardly type much when coding. I type in something, let smart complete fill in the line, hit tab. But it's not even that much text to type in. Most of the work is looking at things and thinking. Perhaps it's the height of the table, I have a movey-up-down table that I adjust so I'm not uncomfortable. But basically I never have wrist pain, whether I'm standing or sitting.
- segfaltnh 3y ago
  Some people are certainly more predisposed to things than others.
- zeroonetwothree 3y ago
  I stopped having back pain when I started working out. Hand pain I don’t actually get from typing, but trackpad use is rough. I use a mouse now and it’s much better.
  - threetonesun 3y ago
    I've found some wrist stretches from yoga practices that have helped after a day of too much trackpad use, but I agree avoiding it as much as possible is better. If you have to use a laptop frequently, getting used to doing everything by keyboard will save your wrists some work.
- bathMarm0t 3y ago
  I've had both. The back pain was instigated by moving, driving across the country, helping someone out with yard work slinging rock, and then going for a post-thanksgiving run, which broke this camel's back. Lumbar shaping is very, very important for the lower spine. You can do it with muscles, or you can do it with things. I used a 10 dollar IKEA chair + grippy bottom + a rolled towel. You roll the towel until it's the right size to create a slight arch. No rulers or drill sergeants necessary. It's also important to note that the drive to/from work is doing just as much damage as being at work, so using the towel in the driver's seat is a godsend. The wrist pain was instigated by working on a laptop during a 1+hr train commute. I kind of looked like Groot (Despicable Me) prancing around, minus the prancing. I tried pretty much everything, but what stuck was the Evoluent mouse. It allows you to use the mouse without arm pronation (pronation forces the carpal region into a binding/constricted position). It's ~100 bucks but a single doctors visit costs more than that. Happy coding.
nivenhuh 3y ago
I am using the Herman Miller Embody and Envelop desk with a foot rest. Being able to pull the desk in/out, switching between reclined / upright, etc.. is great for varying seating positions throughout the day.
source99 3y ago
I have a very similar issue and likely the same cause. What has helped for me: Cortisone shots (temporarily relief but not a fix), losing weight, core strengthening activities and switching to a standing desk 100% of the time. YMMV. 43yr old male, lifelong developer.
dreamy_hoover 3y ago
For me the best option is a floor desk. I found sitting on the floor challenging at the beginning. I even had to re-learn how to get down to and up from the floor properly. But with time (and yoga/stretching exercises) my core has gotten stronger and my joints feel great and I can withstand any amount of time sitting on the floor. I'd say the amount of times you get down and up count as mild exercise. I have had no back or any other kind of pain whatsoever, even after longer sessions. A great thing is that you keep changing posture naturally and you have many more ways you can sit or squat on the floor than on a chair. I don't see this mentioned often, but to me it makes a lot of sense. Children prefer sitting on the floor (they haven't experienced any mobility loss yet), hunter-gatherer tribes sit on the floor for most of the day [0], older people in Japan (and other cultures) sit on the floor without much problem, etc., just to mention some examples. [0] https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/sitting-all-day-bad-for-health_l_6022a938c5b6d78d444a1819 https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/sitting-all-day-bad-f...
- celeritascelery 3y ago
  Do you sit on cushion or mat? Or just on the floor directly. And are you sitting cross legged or some other method?
  - dreamy_hoover 3y ago
    No mat or cushion for me, I've come to appreciate the grounding feeling of sitting on hard wooden floors. I sit in as many positions as I can come up with and alternate between them almost unconsciously now. In a few months of using the floor desk I went from thinking myself unable to sit in half lotus to actually finding that position very comfortable. Some examples of floor sitting postures: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32131303 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32131303 https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/813533120161288900/ https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/813533120161288900/ I use a laptop either directly on the floor or on top of a small table or elevated surface. You can of course also add a monitor, wireless keyboard with touchpad, etc., and that gives you plenty of new posture options.
MeteorMarc 3y ago
Alas, too late. Add half our walks after lunch and diner, in addition to the other habits mentioned.
littleroot 3y ago
I found my neck and shoulder a lot less tense since I started using split keyboards, and my overall posture also improved. The downside is trying (and building!) new split keyboards starts to become an addicting hobby, and I keep finding my next keyboard with fewer keys than the previous. Settled with a 36-key Skeletyl for now.
rideontime 3y ago
Insta-closed when I saw that hideous AI “art” at the top. How is that at all better than nothing at all?
- wsintra2022 3y ago
  Eye of the beholder and all that, I found it rather charming. The defects that exist in generative images I find to be the true beauty in AI art.
colordrops 3y ago
I've had pretty bad spinal issues for the last 19 years, starting with my neck, but more recently with my lower back. Both have caused excruciating pain, with the neck being chronic mid-level, and the lower back putting me in bed for weeks and unable to walk for over a month. I've dialed down the pain to background through several activities. First I went through physical therapy for both the neck and back issues, and did the prescribed exercises religiously. Finding a good therapist is crucial - some just give you pre-packaged sets of exercises, but good ones will be constantly evaluating and customizing your exercises and movements. For my daily routine, I do 1 hour of Mysore Ashtanga yoga. It has dozens of cobra poses (urdva muka svanasana) to reverse the stress on your neck. I also do the 12 minute Foundation Training routine, which strengthens the lower back. [1] For ergonomics, I'm using a standing desk all day. It only takes a couple weeks to get used to, so you might need to take breaks while getting adjusted. Make sure to not lock the knees, or you can alternate which knee is locked. I like to stand in tree pose, alternating legs every once in a while. Make sure to have a standing pad to prevent leg issues. I've also got a mini treadmill under the desk. I try to walk for 5-7 miles a day. It's not as hard as it sounds to get used to, and I'm actually able to code while doing this. Precise mouse movements can be difficult, but luckily my setup is Neovim + SwayWM + Vimium on the browser. If i absolutely must sit, I use an exercise ball on top of a foam swimming noodle that has been glued with epoxy into a circle to keep it stable. The exercise ball keeps the spine in a good poster. It's difficult and painful to slouch on an exercise ball. For my keyboard, I use a Glove80 split ergo. It's a brilliant setup that has gone through tons of a/b testing to fit most hands without needing to move your hands and wrists into awkward positions. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BOTvaRaDjI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BOTvaRaDjI
deleted 3y ago
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GuB-42 3y ago
I never really understood the appeal of standing desks. Standing still seems less natural to me than sitting, and I don't think it is particularly healthy, unlike moving. Personally, I can walk for hours, no problem, but I can't stand still for more than a few minutes at a time. Most jobs that require standing usually involve some moving around. A clerk for instance may leave the counter to bring the things you bought. Out of all the usual recommendations, like better (sitting) posture, regular walking breaks, exercising, etc... Extended use of a standing desk seems like the worst to me, though alternating between sitting and standing seems like a good idea.
- Lukas_Skywalker 3y ago
  The thing I like about my standing desk is that I am unable to stay in the same position for more than 10 minutes. I always shift my weight, move my arms, walk a few steps to the left or right. I am forced to have breaks much more often than when I am sitting.
- bad_username 3y ago
  Alternating between sitting and standing is the only correct way to use a standing desk. Prolonged standing is as harmful as prolonged sitting.
- abdullahkhalids 3y ago
  Stephen Wolfram has a sling that he can use to work on his laptop while out on a walk [1]. [1] https://writings.stephenwolfram.com/2019/02/seeking-the-productive-life-some-details-of-my-personal-infrastructure/ https://writings.stephenwolfram.com/2019/02/seeking-the-prod...
  - moffkalast 3y ago
    That seems like a good fit for some times of the year, but given that IP68 laptops aren't a thing yet (somehow?) it limits you to days of good weather and not too much sun or your screen at max brightness will drain the battery in record time. Quite a hurdle for forming a habit around it. Maybe with a waterproof tablet + bluetooth keyboard + beefy powerbank or solar panel setup if your work can be done in the laughably limited confines of a mobile OS. Something like the treadmill setup he tested would make more sense for daily use, but the heart rate data he mentions makes it sound completely useless.
dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago
I use my computer lying down. Once you discover the utility and comfort of this approach, you'll never want to give it up.
zer8k 3y ago
Can someone explain to me how you can slip a disk typing? I can't contort myself in a way I feel anything more than the occasional back muscle pain. Is the author unusually weak or something? I exercise frequently so perhaps my back is stronger than usual. Still, it seems extremely odd to me you can hurt yourself in that way just simply sitting. Hunched or not.
- tagawa 3y ago
  Author here. Unusually weak? Yes, probably! I didn't feel any sudden pain, it kind of built up over a couple of days, although I've had back problems on and off for the past 5-6 years. In any case, this latest (and worse) occurrence was after a rather intense few weeks on a project with late nights, me not exercising/stretching properly, and coding either hunched over a desk or slouched on the sofa. I'm embarrassed just writing this but maybe it'll help someone else avoid this pain.
- jq-r 3y ago
  I think it's cummulative. I had lower back pain for the last 15 or so years when I would lift something heavy or do something awkwardly (eg diving under desks). But after couple of days it would pass. Last 4 years or so I'm using an ergonomic chair and mostly using a standing desk. And definitely for the whole of my life I've been trying to sit properly and was very attentive at my posture. Even my therapist says that my back muscles are relatively very strong and nicely developed. Nevertheless starting this year I've noticed that the back pain wasn't going away and actually getting worse. So headed to the certified PT. After 2 months of hard work it actually got slightly worse and I went to a private clinic and had a MR[0]. Bulging disc at L5/S1 and herniated L4/L5. Surgery recommended as by that time I was in quite a lot of pain and discomfort. 3 days before the surgery I was in extreme pain. They've supposedly fixed the L5/S1 and the other one wasn't touched because it didn't bulge or anything. So that was in March, and I still didn't recover and I have a feeling that my spine is hanging on that small piece of disc remaining and bit of other tissues. Still doing PT religiously, swimming between off-days. It is getting better on average, but unfortunately not linearly or without regressions. And awfully slow. [0] I was waiting there a bit because spine problems "always happen to other people", and at the same time I was hopeful that PT would get me back on track.
underdeserver 3y ago
Do the exercises, not just the stretches. Squats and situps or planks. The difference between no exercise and little, but consistent, exercise is ridiculously large.
avalys 3y ago
I've been programming for ~20 years and I sit very slouched, with my butt resting at the at very forward lip of my chair. This is very comfortable and relaxed and puts no pressure on my back at all. I keep my monitor high up so my head is elevated. If the need arises, I can do this for 12 hours a day without being uncomfortable or sore at all by the evening. Sitting ramrod straight in the proper "ergonomic" position seems like a disaster waiting to happen. It's super uncomfortable and stresses my back, my arms, my neck.
- aradox66 3y ago
  Sitting on the front edge of a chair with your head elevated is the exact instructions for how to sit ergonomically. The spine is naturally quite curved in its proper "stacked" position, and it's easy to get it wrong and overstrain if you're going for something like "ramrod straight"
- oarfish 3y ago
  "Proper posture" is not a thing, so this is reasonable.
scubbo 3y ago
Let me just drop in to recommend the Kinesis Advantage 2, a keyboard I bought about 6 years ago after first noticing wrist pain. It's probably my only purchase that beats Factorio in "benefit-per-dollar". I absolutely love it. Haven't used the 360 (it wasn't available when I bought it), but that looks even better.
- fredrikholm 3y ago
  Similar praise to the unfortunately named Ultimate Hacking Keyboard. Split keyboard that can be rotated and titled exactly to fit your needs was the difference between bilateral pinky side pain radiating to my elbows to absolutely no pain in a matter of a few weeks. That, and it's a damn fine, steel cased macro-able keyboard.
newaccount74 3y ago
I think that working in the same position every day, for hours, is going to have bad effects even if you are in the best position. If you always stress exactly the same muscles, it's going to start hurting at some point. So my solution is to change it up. I often change the setup of my screens, I switch between keyboards and mice, sometimes I work on my couch on my laptop, sometimes at the office, occasionally at a standing desk. I think the variation helps.
fleaaa 3y ago
Using laptop is a last resort...
precompute 3y ago
- exercise! - use an external monitor, stop squinting at a 15" screen. There you go.
parasti 3y ago
I tried a standing desk. It boosted my productivity for sure - when I wanted to procrastinate instead I just switched between sitting/standing and kept working. It also created a couple of health problems. First, I started to feel pain in my left shoulder. After a while I realized that it's caused by leaning on my left arm as a way to let my feet rest. Then, I started to feel tingling/numbness in one of my knees. It persisted for weeks until I stopped using a standing desk.
woodruffw 3y ago
Posture is very important. What’s also important is not trusting a chiropractor, like this article (previously) stated: chiropractic is a quack medicine[1] that ranges somewhere between harmless (but falsely advertised) massage and dangerous, sometimes fatal, spinal manipulation[2]. Edit: Amended to reflect the fact that this was likely a translation error. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiropractic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiropractic [2]: https://web.archive.org/web/20100516074554/http://jrsm.rsmjournals.com/cgi/content/full/100/7/330 https://web.archive.org/web/20100516074554/http://jrsm.rsmjo...
- thepostman0 3y ago
  Obligatory bullshit episode: https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0771272/ https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0771272/
  - overlordalex 3y ago
    Obligatory Behind the Bastards podcast episode: https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-behind-the-bastards-29236323/episode/how-chiropractic-started-as-a-ghost-48498573/ https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-behind-the-bastards-29236...
- sedivy94 3y ago
  The chiropractor’s assessment, as mentioned in the article, is consistent with the research I’ve gathered over a decade of amateur bodybuilding and powerlifting. I would bet many athletes will disagree with the above sentiment surrounding chiropractors. I personally haven’t met one practicing holistic medicine. What I primarily see in practices is active release therapy (ART), Graston, cupping, along with traditional physical therapy - an aggregate of effective soft tissue and joint manipulation techniques. Back cracks just happen to come with the package.
  - woodruffw 3y ago
    The assessment might be correct; this does not make a chiropractor qualified to make it.
gukoff 3y ago
The only habit you need are the regular strength exercises, especially for the stability of the back muscles. Please, please forget about the stretches or "ergonomics" if you don't excersise. It will not help you in the long run.
- jaggederest 3y ago
  I've found no research that indicates static stretching does anything except increase your tolerance for static stretching, anyway. No reduction in injury, no increase in range of motion, no functional benefits. Do it if it feels good, otherwise don't feel obligated.
  - gukoff 3y ago
    Exactly. And stretching may lead to the further injuries if your muscles are weak and can't support the safe movement during the full range of motion. Especially if you already have hypermobility. The author should talk to a knowledgeable physiotherapist, not a chiropractor...
sharperguy 3y ago
I think regular sports involving use of muscles really helps with this. Either weight lifting, with an emphasis on squats and deadlifts, bouldering, certain forms of yoga, calisthetics etc. Keeping your overall muscles strong supports the rest of your body throughout the day while you work.
634636346 3y ago
[flagged]
- moneywoes 3y ago
  Thanks for confirming my suspicion Unfortunately, this trend is only going to get worse
  - tagawa 3y ago
    Author here. It's hand-written, not AI-generated, although the header images are (Stability).
- jamilton 3y ago
  IIRC, chiropractors empirically can/do provide short-term pain relief, just not long-term fixes. And short-term pain relief is a reasonable thing to want. It's on the front page because it was upvoted and other things were upvoted less at this time.
- frob 3y ago
  The articles dated July 2 and 6th are both about how to hide api keys and say basically the same thing. The header images all look like they came from the same base prompt. And, just for icing, the rest of the posts are all about how to use chatGPT
  - tagawa 3y ago
    Author here. I did the first API key hiding post (and accompanying video) for local code, but got a question about how to hide API keys when deploying code remotely. I couldn't update the original video so I decided to create a new one instead, and accompanying post, and then link them to each other. For the header images, I use Stability and yes, use the same base prompt so they all have a consistent feel. The posts so far are about using the GPT API because there was a positive reaction to an initial post I put out, so I expanded on that. I wanted to have a specific focus rather than just learning Python in general. It's still early days for the site so I'm still finding my way.
simonbarker87 3y ago
Gosh that MRI looks just like mine from 2016. Herniation of the L5S1 disc, minor slip/misalignment of the vertebrae and some tearing of the longitudinal posterior ligament. Mine was caused by poor squat form due to a lack of ankle mobility + sitting badly. Took me 3 years to rehab it fully, with no need for surgery with a mix of standing desk, regular physiotherapy, changing movement patterns and time. There is clear evidence that so long as the hernia isn’t causing imminent danger to bodily functions then the recovery path for having surgery and not having surgery is basically the same. Also, chiro’s are quacks - their core thesis is treating (from memory) luxations, of which there is no evidence of existing. If you have an injury, find a physio who isn’t afraid to work on you with manipulations, massage, cupping, scraping, dry needling, mobilisations AND prescriptive exercises for mobility and strength work.
- tagawa 3y ago
  3 years?! You have my sympathies. I never understood just how painful it was when a friend told me they had a slipped disc, until it happened to me too. Regarding the chiropractor, this may be a mistranslation on my part. I live in Japan and go to a 接骨院 which is probably closer to an osteopath (I didn't realise there was a difference), so I've updated the post.
tru1ock 3y ago
I only use a kneeling chair. Also daily short 15-20min HIIT with pull ups have resolved all my back problems. I highly recommend the simple and sinister daily energizer approach. After work when you are tired and mentally drained is the best time to exercise. This gives you energy to do your own things for the remainder of the day.
teekert 3y ago
The best posture is your next one. Just keep moving guys, and train those core muscles that keep your back straight.
synergy20 3y ago
I rarely use my laptop as a coding device, must have external monitors and keyboards, otherwise my neck hurts quickly. the laptop by design is too close between its keyboard and monitor, I wonder how others can use it continuously. I hope in public areas we have some monitor+keyboard+mouse there for use(or rent, like the EV chargers to-be-built-more or the gas-stations-everywhere), everyone just brings his/her laptop, or even a little raspberry pi or intel NUC, or cast their phone screen, then plug and get work done.
mellosouls 3y ago
wrt posture, this cool (because its simple and pithy) Chrome extension has reminded me every 20 minutes for years to "Sit Up Straight, Cuz" and similar admonitions. https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/postureminder/dkmkfopiihabelocpelofchappjjnpkm https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/postureminder/dkmk... https://github.com/sheryllun/postureminder https://github.com/sheryllun/postureminder
vjerancrnjak 3y ago
I've been sitting long in front of the computer since I was 6. Being slouched, crossing your legs, many positions are an act of stretching. Skin will stretch, spine curvature will change, knee/hip tissue will stretch. I have lost all of the curvature in the neck and spine. Outside of X-ray showing that neck/back lost its natural curvature, there's no tissue/disc damage. Doctors say it is quite normal for anyone sitting to lose curvature. My sitting experience was never accompanied by pain. I did notice knee & hip pain during longer walks in the left leg that I usually keep in a more stretched position while sitting (crossing or tucking legs). Since I've incorporated strength training (heavy squat/deadlift/overhead press) years ago there's no pain any more (interesting observation, left leg grew much more). I have no idea if sitting, for me, is detrimental at all.
Roark66 3y ago
Kudos for the author for raising this. I'd add one more thing to consider. No Touch Typing. Despite my many decades in IT I never learned to "properly" touch type. I type at the typical 40 wpm looking at the keyboard and moving my forearms and hands very frequently. However, recently I tried to learn touch typing. I set my chair/monitor/keyboard as recommended and I commenced some typing exercises with my fingers planted on the home row. After an hour of this I felt my wrists are definitely going to give up if I carry on (mainly due to hands being held in this cramped position for a long time instead of random movements). Classic keyboards force you into a very unnatural angle where forearms point towards the centre and wrists are bent outwards to make both hands parallel. A split keyboard can probably resolve this. But entering into the realm of non standard keyboards has certain disadvantages (lack of portability). Then there is a slippery slope of.. If I'm contemplating a split keyboard why not go further into curved keyboards, key rows that are not offset and so on... It all becomes a long and expensive process of buying/building lots of "weird" keyboards. All of it could be avoided, just by giving up on touch typing. Unless anyone has a better idea?
- yoyohello13 3y ago
  A wrist rest is essential for me. I notice without one my wrists and shoulders start to ache. A good wrist rest with lots of padding elevates your wrists to a good typing position without pinching the tendons.
- esperent 3y ago
  I recently switched to a fancy split ergo keyboard. One with actual separate halves. Normal 65% layout, no messing around with control keys and layers except for the function keys. It took a couple of days to get used to. But an interesting side effect after using it for six months - I can now touch type. I didn't try to learn to touch type and I can't do it if I switch back to a normal keyboard (which feels very cramped now). I also am sure I don't do "correct" touch typing, especially with my right hand. I don't know if this helps my coding. But in a way, using the keyboard feels more like playing an instrument now. I think that is useful, although it's impossible to quantify how useful, of course. Edit: this is the one I got: https://keeb.io/collections/pre-built-keyboards/products/quefrency-keyboard-pre-built https://keeb.io/collections/pre-built-keyboards/products/que... Initially feels like a crazy amount to spend on a keyboard but it's fully repairable and I expect it to last for many years. Just wish it was wireless.
temporallobe 3y ago
Been coding mostly from hone to 20+ years. You need: 1. Adjustable height desk (sit/stand, whatever) 2. External monitor, full-size keyboard, and mouse 3. Comfy chair (NOT necessarily “ergonomic”). If you’re comfortable and your body doesn’t hurt when standing or changing position, then it’s a good chair). 4. Frequent mental breaks (play guitar, games, fidget toys, etc.) 5. Post-nut clarity
pmulard 3y ago
I’ve been dealing with a herniated disc for almost a year now. It’s completely changed how I view my body, and it’s made me forever grateful for my health - along with complete respect for those dealing with chronic medical issues. For the first few months I could barely get out of bed. Nine months later and I can only walk a mile or two a day. Unfortunately, I was laid off right before it happened and haven’t been table to get surgery. Talk about bad luck. This experience has accentuated how horrible the American healthcare system is to me. Even if I wanted take another turn in the service industry until I get back into engineering, I can’t, because I need my body fixed first.
- buggyipadmettoo 3y ago
  The stretch picture in the article might be the worst imaginable for someone with a herniated disc. Need to be bending the opposite way!
synesso 3y ago
As someone in his position 20+ years ago who did a lot of stretching and yoga for recovery, I can attest that this will only take you so far. Real gains come when you lift weights, which I started at the age of 49. The deadlift is a particularly good remedy for lumbar pain. Start on low weights with good form. Programmers develop weak lumbar support and stretching weak muscles can bring short term relief, but will not resolve the underlying issue. In time, stretching no longer becomes effective without over-stretching, which brings its own problems. Building that muscular support is key.
liampulles 3y ago
I invested in a Herman Miller Aeron to try help with my posture and back, and it was uncomfortable for months. Eventually I adjusted, which was helped by finding a proper height desk and losing a bit of weight. Just saying this so people know: a good chair is not necessarily an instant fix.
oarfish 3y ago
Stretching feels good, but has little effect in injury prevention. In general, back pain is very common across the population and quite resistant to reliable prevention or treatment. I think there was a study that found only education and physical activity had any effect at all (and stretching is not useful for meeting minimum physical activity standards). Also, people tend to develop disc bulges as they age, and the vast majority are asymptomatic. In this case probably the pain is actually caused by the herniation, but don't nocebo yourself into pain just because there are some deformities in your spine.

315 points by tagawa 3y ago

Too true. I’ve come to particularly dislike the way we design computing devices and interfaces. They ruin our bodies and require exceptions to accommodate people with different capabilities. And to afford those accommodations is a privilege many do not have access to. The best thing we can do is spend less time in front of them.

bhdlr 3y ago
> Too true. I’ve come to particularly dislike the way we design computing devices and interfaces. They ruin our bodies and require exceptions to accommodate people with different capabilities. And to afford those accommodations is a privilege many do not have access to. > The best thing we can do is spend less time in front of them. While I think this is great advice, the author of the article lost all credibility as soon as he mentioned a chiropractor
- bigmattystyles 3y ago
  Same here - how they are allowed to continue to be a trade is beyond me. My friend is a neurosurgeon and has more than a few stories about times she's had to fix or more often, mitigate, damage done by chiropractors. But at the same time, nothing is done about other quacks like supplements, homeopathy, etc...
  - plagiarist 3y ago
    Be careful, if you get too close to supporting medical regulations and evidence-based medicine, you will awaken the crowd who thinks vaccines are poison and quacks should be allowed to sell ivermectin for every ailment. Surely Tim Ferris should be allowed to sell supplements because the free market is absolutely perfect (unless a member of the free market is deciding to enforce masks as a condition of entry or something).
    - damagednoob 3y ago
      I don't want to ban things like homeopathy and chiropractors but I have seen them attached to government hospitals in the UK. Chiropractic treatment should not be funded by the public.

pininja 3y ago

At first I thought this would be about technical habits, but I’m glad it’s actually about longevity.

necessary 3y ago

As someone who has been feeling various back pains at the ripe old age of 25, I appreciate this article greatly.

the_only_law 3y ago
I don’t know what happened, but a couple weeks ago, I was sitting on the couch when I suddenly had a sharp pain shoot through the right side of my body. It subsided after a few seconds, but for a week I had a persistent pain in my side, around my right rib cage and behind the shoulder blade. At first I thought it was something really bad, like an organ issue. It hurt just to lay down in bed at night. Only thing that seemed to give any relief were really tense stretches. It ended up going away after that week, and at this point I assume I must have just pulled some muscle in a bad way, but I certainly didn’t think I was old enough to have back issues like that.
- techno_tsar 3y ago
  Sounds awful. I’ve done the same once, in college, reaching for a shower curtain. I genuinely thought I was too young to experience issues like that. Could also be a nerve thing. Sometimes my upper back and shoulders compresses a nerve and it ends up shooting into my elbow. I herniated a disc at 21 and that was just from bad posture, I was sitting on the couch as well and as I was getting up I felt a terribly electric pain shoot from my lower right back to my leg. It took years for it to be better and I’ve aggravated it several times. On one occasion the pain was so bad it requires a hospital trip, where their best advice was physio and to stay active. Rest and a sedentary lifestyle is disastrous if you’re prone to back injuries. Even now, although I’m very active, just sitting in the same spot for an hour triggers piriformis syndrome. Quite literally a pain in the ass that affects my hips.
malux85 3y ago
Standing desk
locuscoeruleus 3y ago
I had all sorts of random pains throughout my back/arms. After I started climbing almost everything disappeared. Being forced to stretch your hands above your body a few days a week is probably healthy for a programmer.

baremetal 3y ago

I do body weight exercises and stretch every day. They are easy to do during breaks from coding, and don't require any special equipment. I am really fond of the L-sit as it works so many muscle groups and makes for a strong core. It's something you may have to work up to though. I also meditate. It is great for concentration and overall well-being.

progbits 3y ago
https://stretch15.com/ https://stretch15.com/ is nice low effort way to start stretching. It was on HN few months ago and since then I do it almost every day. I've been going to the gym for a long time but proper stretching is something I never paid attention to.

yellow_lead 3y ago

> According to my chiropractor, sitting for long periods of time had led to my stomach and thigh muscles being relatively unused, and therefore unable to assist my back in supporting my body, putting it under extra strain. This is reasonable - getting up often and walking or stretching is good for you. However I wouldn't rely on chiropractors for medical advice.

PartiallyTyped 3y ago
And you know … working out, lifting weights, walking for a while.
winrid 3y ago
You need to work out or you'll turn into a potato that can't support your own upper body. You'll end up with all kinds of medical and joint issues.
tagawa 3y ago
Thanks for the tip. I think I used the wrong term in the post (now updated). I live in Japan and go to a 接骨院 which I assumed was chiropractor, but osteopath is probably a better translation. I should have researched before posting.
- yellow_lead 3y ago
  Understand, thanks for clarifying/updating.

laeri 3y ago

Totally agree, either physical or mental health problems is the most dangerous risk we face. Doing or not doing something over a long period of time can have serious consequences.

politelemon 3y ago

I think there's on assumption being made here which ought to be challenged. Laptops are widely used, but they are not great coding environments. They were created to enable portability, but the way it mostly gets used promotes terrible habits, posture, handpositions, viewing angles, all of the above. If given a choice I would opt for a desktop and live with the portability restrictions it comes with. Of course it is an increasingly uncommon choice. The next best thing is to use the laptop docked but closed, and have separate peripherals: monitors, keyboard, mouse.

lacrimacida 3y ago
Yeah, I agee with the problems laptop use can create. I do use a decent laptop but use it as a desktop with eye level monitor and external keyboard attached. I found that positioning the keybord close to my body with a table height slightly above my sitting thighs such that the elbows are close to the body is the best ergonomics I could find and any back/neck/shoulder aches I used to get in my 20s and 30s have nearly vanished completely. My only problem is my butt getting tired of sitting on a chair and use it as an excuse to take breaks. Not sure if this position is universal, I did find it through experimentstion and I encourage evryone to test out various positions and to avoid using laptops for extended periods of time, it is really bad and could also create poor sitting habits that extend beyond the computer.
jauntywundrkind 3y ago
Laptops are actually kind of ok just not how people use them. ;) Elevate & decoupled! Raise the screen. Use a Bluetooth keyboard. Stop staring down! Ideally one can rig up a way to get the keyboard under the laptop. That's rough though, not always easy (some soda cans & cardboard... Where there's a will!). Often I end up with my laptop on my adventure pack and the keyboard in front (or on my lap). I used to just use tablet style 2-in-1's, which rock: the Tryone gooseneck arm (or many others) let's you hover the screen in really nice position, wherever you want. I was pretty fine having a decently hidpi 11-12 inch screen positioned close in, but I have really wanted a bigger 2-in-1 I could work with. I miss 2013 when there was the bigger bigger bigger push for tablets: we are creeping back up, but the bold 18.4 beasts of that age were I hope only a bit too soon. It all comea down to!: > Improve your coding environment

jauntywundrkind 3y ago

> Don’t code late at night Big disagree fore. For me, code comes much easier in the deep of the night. I can just write, and it's fine, where-as during the day I get distracted by side quests & perfectionism. I think regularly of PKD writing I think in VALIS trilogy about the heat of the palm tree garden (of Eden), waves of heat making us languid. And then the night, the absence of god's light, humans unwatched, free, unburdened. The contrast has resonated with me for so long, the relief from pressures of the day, unburdened freedom. I feel it, I feel freer, as I code deeper into the night.

PartiallyTyped 3y ago
What I love the most about coding at night is that I am more creative, and everything flows better.
eyelidlessness 3y ago
I think it might be better generalized as “don’t code for some daily period of extended downtime”, or even more generalized as “take one very long break between work days”. Even that won’t necessarily apply to everyone, but for most people it’s a more healthy habit than cranking for >10 hours a day or similar overwork.

brycelarkin 3y ago

I try to incorporate deadlifts into my workouts twice a week to prevent this. Lower back pain is scary. During covid, when the gyms were closed, I couldn’t do deadlifts and felt the back pain coming. Thankfully everything opened up.

bdcravens 3y ago
I also have a medical condition that has caused degenerative arthritis in the lower back. I find that if I'm seated in anything but an Aeron I can't remain seated for long. I suspect it's less the brand than the mesh with some give. However, since I know the brand, I happily spent the $1300 for my home setup. (I also sprung for an Uplift standing desk)
exhilaration 3y ago
Deadlifts are the best, not just for the back benefits but for hand strength as well - my wrist pain is a distant memory now.
moneywoes 3y ago
Ironically I hurt my back attempting dead lifts. Perhaps the form was poor

natsucks 3y ago

I'm hoping that a potential transition from monitors to AR glasses will substantially alleviate some of these issues.

ComodoHacker 3y ago
I'm also hoping LLM burst enable reliable voice input for code.

vmoore 3y ago

I never liked the seated, sedentary nature of programming. Over time though, I've forced myself to take regular breaks, say every 10 minutes to straighten out my spine, and every 60 mins I go for a longish walk to clear my head and repair my back. Any hard problems or puzzles I encountered usually get solved when walking, as my brain is in a different state and can problem-solve better. There are ergonomic items you can buy for a home-lab situation or maybe the office splurged out on Herman Miller chairs, but no amount of ergonomic items (Vertical Mouse etc) will solve the sitting down problem. You have to do pattern interrupts and frequent (reparative) breaks. This is known to increase productivity. If you're in your twenties you can probably get away with long sessions sitting down without major issues, but over time, sitting /will/ affect you if you're not doing interrupts and exercising/repairing yourself.

cuddlecake 3y ago
What do you do, when you straighten out your spine? I mean in terms of movement, or do you just change your posture?
- fifilura 3y ago
  Basic yoga moves are fantastic for this. Sun salutations with downward and upward dog. They also strengthen your core. There are more moves in the Ashtanga sequence, whenever I do it I get a feeling of my discs being stretched and exercised like a rubber ball.
- idle_processor 3y ago
  Stuart McGill recommends periodically standing and stretching your arms over your head a couple times. You can see the motion demonstrated here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bcbuhePZZj0&t=459s https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bcbuhePZZj0&t=459s He also recommended doing the cat-cow from yoga, and there's a set of exercises referred to as the McGill big 3. I've seen some positive references to the McKenzie method book, Treat Your Own Back. I haven't tried it specifically, but had good luck with their equivalent book for neck treatment.
- molsongolden 3y ago

danjc 3y ago

Keen to here whether anyone here uses a exercise/sitting ball at a desk as a way to improve posture?

Given_47 3y ago
Yea I’ve always been curious about those. Any time I’ve tried one out, I end up sitting all hunched over, so I’m obviously doing something wrong but wondering as well

AnimalMuppet 3y ago

Don't forget your hands! You don't think of programmers as "people who work with their hands", but we really are. (So are surgeons, by the way.) I typed too hard for a few decades because I began on some really stiff keyboards. That has not been good for my fingers. You shouldn't hit keys harder than you need to, because if you multiply that by a few decades the impacts on your joints and tendons add up to damage. If your fingers hurt after a day of coding, pay attention. Wrist angle matters. Carpal tunnel is no fun. (So far, I have been spared that.) Pay attention to strain on your wrists as you type. If there is some, think about your geometry, and how you can change it. One of the things I despise about laptops is that their keyboards are too small for my hands. For serious work, I need a full-sized keyboard. So when you think about ergonomics, don't forget your hands. (And don't forget your eyes. Look away from the monitor to something at least 20 feet away, for at least 20 seconds, regularly. I forget what the recommendation is - every 20 minutes, or every 2 hours, or something. But regularly.)

hommelix 3y ago
I can recommend workrave. It reminds me to take breaks and propose stretching or looking further than the monitor. https://workrave.org/ https://workrave.org/

block_dagger 3y ago

I was confined to a supine workstation for a similar reason. Thankfully, changing my habits allowed a nearly full recover, albeit years long. I wrote about my setup, only slightly out of date: https://medium.com/@jcraigk/healthy-hacking-diy-supine-workstation-cbaadcbbc2aa https://medium.com/@jcraigk/healthy-hacking-diy-supine-works...

Thoeu388 3y ago

This article is pretty clueless, as most people. Backbone is hugely supported by muscles. Slipped disc basically means there were no muscles to prevent it. Posture, healthy lifestyle etc is hugely irrelevant. Also typical exercise like running, lifting etc does not help. As a developer, you should train torso muscles to protect your backbone. Pretty complicated regime, you need good personal trainer for that.

dilyevsky 3y ago
Are you saying deadlifts don’t train torso muscles?
- Thoeu388 3y ago
  No, I am saying it does not help typical developer. My personal opinion is that it is damaging joints (including spine discs). My trainer also does not recommend it. But I am not really qualified on this subject.
  - dilyevsky 3y ago
    > No, I am saying it does not help typical developer. What's a "typical developer"? If we are talking today then typical developer is just typical white-collar employee. I see many of those in my gym, some of them even use it correctly (that is they get in, do deadlifts, and get out =)) > My personal opinion is that it is damaging joints (including spine discs). My trainer also does not recommend it. But I am not really qualified on this subject. Well you should get a second opinion. Obviously I don't know your personal history but for most "typical developers" if you get some coaching, use trap bar, don't go to failure or 1rm and don't use straps, it's super safe.
  - dasil003 3y ago
    Squats and deadlifts are unequaled in terms of core strength development, and they are also some of the most natural human motions that any toddler naturally picks up as they learn to walk upright. I agree doing them with heavy weights can be risky for a typical sedentary adult, but they need not be feared. Performed correctly, the load goes into your muscles, not joints, but you have to learn how to engage your core muscles and maintain tension through the whole kinetic chain. The best way to do this is to get a knowledgeable coach and build up slowly starting with no weight until you have the basic movement and coordination well established.

planetjones 3y ago

I have suffered the same. The pain from the sciatica was unlike anything I had ever experienced. Excruciating doesn’t even begin to describe it. The McKenzie exercises every morning since have undoubtedly helped my recovery. As has giving up running.

pkkm 3y ago

> laptop The author buried the lede. Using a bare laptop all day will damage your health. To achieve an ergonomic posture [0], you have to be looking straight forward (or close to that) while your elbows are low and bent at an obtuse angle. This is impossible with a laptop, unless you basically turn it into a desktop by connecting it to an external keyboard, mouse, and monitor(s). Theoretically, you could use a laptop stand instead of an external monitor, but I've found that the letters on a laptop screen are small enough that they make me reflexively crane my neck forward. Time spent using a laptop without external peripherals should be limited just like vibration and noise exposure is. You're always straining either your shoulders, your neck, or both. It's surprising to me that the author is looking into niche products like sit-stand desks before having addressed the obvious problem that would be pointed out by any ergonomics resource on the Internet. It reminds me of the phrase, "don't major in the minors". [0] https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/blog/7-things-you-need-for-an-ergonomically-correct-workstation/ https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/blog/7-things-you-need-fo...

kwanbix 3y ago
I connect my ThinkPad P51 to two external monitors, an external trackpoing keyboard 2, and a logitech trackpad. It works perfect, and if i need to work on the road, I just disconnect it and take it with me.
- Sardtok 3y ago
  Trackpads are horrible. Gives me way more strain than using a mouse, even though I have relatively small hands, I find the larger Logitech mice very comfortable in use. Currently using a MX Master 3, after switching from the original MX Master. Before that I had frequently recurring tendonitis in my right index finger and various pains in my lower right arm. I still occasionally have issues, but nothing like when I used to use a trackpad. I've never tried using an external trackpad. I suppose it could alleviate some of the issues, but I highly suspect my tendonitis would still come back.
- xeonmc 3y ago
  > Has a thinkpad > Uses an external trackpad ??? Why not just use the thinkpad with the lid half-open?

ecshafer 3y ago

I don't understand how people use laptops for extended periods of time. The only comfortable way to use a laptop is with an external monitor, keyboard and mouse. The author talks about ergonomics but still uses a laptop. Laptops are for doing work on a plane or taking to a hotel room when traveling, not for being a daily driver in my book (at least not without peripherals). The keyboard on laptops is too close together, the screen is at the wrong height and angle. Trackpads are disastrous. Using a laptop for 8 hours feels like the day after running a marathon but without any of the good parts.

nordsieck 3y ago
> Trackpads are disastrous. Why do you say that? I know quite a few people who use an external trackpad with a desktop setup and they seem to do pretty well with it.
- ecshafer 3y ago
  I don't know about an external one. But the standard track pad is in the center of the screen/keyboard layout and quite close to your body. Its non-ergonomic.
  - coufu 3y ago
    I’ve been using trackpad primarily with my thumb for about 6 years now. Obviously I have to use other fingers sometimes to scroll and drag though. I find a mouse slows me down when I have to take my hands off the keyboard to use the mouse. This is coming from a vim enthusiast (worth mentioning in this context since a big benefit of using vim is how much time is saved by not taking hands off the keyboard).
dividedbyzero 3y ago
I use an external Apple trackpad and it's been a relief for my right arm, I only use a mouse for gaming anymore as game-specific muscle memory doesn't seem to translate well. It does feel very ergonomic to me, almost on par with a vertical mouse, but those are always too big for my hands. I get why people wouldn't want to do that with Windows laptop trackpads though, not to speak of Linux, which seems to really struggle with trackpads.

BodyCulture 3y ago

Just a little thing but it would help a lot if terminal input lines were at the top of the screen by default.

gjvc 3y ago
pressing ctrl-L often helps with that

sudosteph 3y ago

Quick question I like to ask to remote workers who have worked in office environments before: Do you find your ergonomics are better or worse since switching to working at home? Or the same? I've heard it both ways, but for me it's been harder to keep up healthy ergo habits at home. Not sure if it was peer pressure in the office that kept me using my standing desk better or what, but I definitely have slipped and my posture is noticeably worse lately.

isoprophlex 3y ago
At home I can fuck off on a walk whenever I want, or do calls walking, I have a nice standing desk, the food is always healthy, I can take a hot shower when my neck hurts or go on a run when fidgety, the chair is always set up correctly if I want to sit, there's nice window blinds against glare, there's a balcony to inhale fresh air and look in the distance... Whereas office means trains, so cramped seating and touching a laptop, or driving a car thru obnoxious traffic jams. I think WFH is much healthier for me.
- sudosteph 3y ago
  Ah, the commute may be the thing I'm not accounting for. My last office jobs were about a mile walk from my apartment, so I actually got more movement and fresh air as part of my daily routine. Agreed that car and train time seem less than ideal.

lordnacho 3y ago

Weirdly I don't seem to have the two main problems that coders report: back pain and hand/wrist pain. I always keep a straight posture. Either I'm standing, or I'm sitting with my back straight. I make sure I don't slouch, because that's what causes pain. Used to feel natural to slouch, but now it feels natural to puff my chest out. Also, walking on a treadmill while reading makes it impossible to slouch. With my wrists, I'm not sure I get it. Surely people are not actually typing all the time? I spend a lot of time looking at the code by using the touchpad. A lot of slidey-two-fingers to scroll the text. But also I hardly type much when coding. I type in something, let smart complete fill in the line, hit tab. But it's not even that much text to type in. Most of the work is looking at things and thinking. Perhaps it's the height of the table, I have a movey-up-down table that I adjust so I'm not uncomfortable. But basically I never have wrist pain, whether I'm standing or sitting.

segfaltnh 3y ago
Some people are certainly more predisposed to things than others.
zeroonetwothree 3y ago
I stopped having back pain when I started working out. Hand pain I don’t actually get from typing, but trackpad use is rough. I use a mouse now and it’s much better.
- threetonesun 3y ago
  I've found some wrist stretches from yoga practices that have helped after a day of too much trackpad use, but I agree avoiding it as much as possible is better. If you have to use a laptop frequently, getting used to doing everything by keyboard will save your wrists some work.
bathMarm0t 3y ago
I've had both. The back pain was instigated by moving, driving across the country, helping someone out with yard work slinging rock, and then going for a post-thanksgiving run, which broke this camel's back. Lumbar shaping is very, very important for the lower spine. You can do it with muscles, or you can do it with things. I used a 10 dollar IKEA chair + grippy bottom + a rolled towel. You roll the towel until it's the right size to create a slight arch. No rulers or drill sergeants necessary. It's also important to note that the drive to/from work is doing just as much damage as being at work, so using the towel in the driver's seat is a godsend. The wrist pain was instigated by working on a laptop during a 1+hr train commute. I kind of looked like Groot (Despicable Me) prancing around, minus the prancing. I tried pretty much everything, but what stuck was the Evoluent mouse. It allows you to use the mouse without arm pronation (pronation forces the carpal region into a binding/constricted position). It's ~100 bucks but a single doctors visit costs more than that. Happy coding.

nivenhuh 3y ago

I am using the Herman Miller Embody and Envelop desk with a foot rest. Being able to pull the desk in/out, switching between reclined / upright, etc.. is great for varying seating positions throughout the day.

source99 3y ago

I have a very similar issue and likely the same cause. What has helped for me: Cortisone shots (temporarily relief but not a fix), losing weight, core strengthening activities and switching to a standing desk 100% of the time. YMMV. 43yr old male, lifelong developer.

dreamy_hoover 3y ago

For me the best option is a floor desk. I found sitting on the floor challenging at the beginning. I even had to re-learn how to get down to and up from the floor properly. But with time (and yoga/stretching exercises) my core has gotten stronger and my joints feel great and I can withstand any amount of time sitting on the floor. I'd say the amount of times you get down and up count as mild exercise. I have had no back or any other kind of pain whatsoever, even after longer sessions. A great thing is that you keep changing posture naturally and you have many more ways you can sit or squat on the floor than on a chair. I don't see this mentioned often, but to me it makes a lot of sense. Children prefer sitting on the floor (they haven't experienced any mobility loss yet), hunter-gatherer tribes sit on the floor for most of the day [0], older people in Japan (and other cultures) sit on the floor without much problem, etc., just to mention some examples. [0] https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/sitting-all-day-bad-for-health_l_6022a938c5b6d78d444a1819 https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/sitting-all-day-bad-f...

celeritascelery 3y ago
Do you sit on cushion or mat? Or just on the floor directly. And are you sitting cross legged or some other method?
- dreamy_hoover 3y ago
  No mat or cushion for me, I've come to appreciate the grounding feeling of sitting on hard wooden floors. I sit in as many positions as I can come up with and alternate between them almost unconsciously now. In a few months of using the floor desk I went from thinking myself unable to sit in half lotus to actually finding that position very comfortable. Some examples of floor sitting postures: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32131303 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32131303 https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/813533120161288900/ https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/813533120161288900/ I use a laptop either directly on the floor or on top of a small table or elevated surface. You can of course also add a monitor, wireless keyboard with touchpad, etc., and that gives you plenty of new posture options.

MeteorMarc 3y ago

Alas, too late. Add half our walks after lunch and diner, in addition to the other habits mentioned.

littleroot 3y ago

I found my neck and shoulder a lot less tense since I started using split keyboards, and my overall posture also improved. The downside is trying (and building!) new split keyboards starts to become an addicting hobby, and I keep finding my next keyboard with fewer keys than the previous. Settled with a 36-key Skeletyl for now.

rideontime 3y ago

Insta-closed when I saw that hideous AI “art” at the top. How is that at all better than nothing at all?

wsintra2022 3y ago
Eye of the beholder and all that, I found it rather charming. The defects that exist in generative images I find to be the true beauty in AI art.

colordrops 3y ago

I've had pretty bad spinal issues for the last 19 years, starting with my neck, but more recently with my lower back. Both have caused excruciating pain, with the neck being chronic mid-level, and the lower back putting me in bed for weeks and unable to walk for over a month. I've dialed down the pain to background through several activities. First I went through physical therapy for both the neck and back issues, and did the prescribed exercises religiously. Finding a good therapist is crucial - some just give you pre-packaged sets of exercises, but good ones will be constantly evaluating and customizing your exercises and movements. For my daily routine, I do 1 hour of Mysore Ashtanga yoga. It has dozens of cobra poses (urdva muka svanasana) to reverse the stress on your neck. I also do the 12 minute Foundation Training routine, which strengthens the lower back. [1] For ergonomics, I'm using a standing desk all day. It only takes a couple weeks to get used to, so you might need to take breaks while getting adjusted. Make sure to not lock the knees, or you can alternate which knee is locked. I like to stand in tree pose, alternating legs every once in a while. Make sure to have a standing pad to prevent leg issues. I've also got a mini treadmill under the desk. I try to walk for 5-7 miles a day. It's not as hard as it sounds to get used to, and I'm actually able to code while doing this. Precise mouse movements can be difficult, but luckily my setup is Neovim + SwayWM + Vimium on the browser. If i absolutely must sit, I use an exercise ball on top of a foam swimming noodle that has been glued with epoxy into a circle to keep it stable. The exercise ball keeps the spine in a good poster. It's difficult and painful to slouch on an exercise ball. For my keyboard, I use a Glove80 split ergo. It's a brilliant setup that has gone through tons of a/b testing to fit most hands without needing to move your hands and wrists into awkward positions. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BOTvaRaDjI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BOTvaRaDjI

deleted 3y ago

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GuB-42 3y ago

I never really understood the appeal of standing desks. Standing still seems less natural to me than sitting, and I don't think it is particularly healthy, unlike moving. Personally, I can walk for hours, no problem, but I can't stand still for more than a few minutes at a time. Most jobs that require standing usually involve some moving around. A clerk for instance may leave the counter to bring the things you bought. Out of all the usual recommendations, like better (sitting) posture, regular walking breaks, exercising, etc... Extended use of a standing desk seems like the worst to me, though alternating between sitting and standing seems like a good idea.

Lukas_Skywalker 3y ago
The thing I like about my standing desk is that I am unable to stay in the same position for more than 10 minutes. I always shift my weight, move my arms, walk a few steps to the left or right. I am forced to have breaks much more often than when I am sitting.
bad_username 3y ago
Alternating between sitting and standing is the only correct way to use a standing desk. Prolonged standing is as harmful as prolonged sitting.
abdullahkhalids 3y ago
Stephen Wolfram has a sling that he can use to work on his laptop while out on a walk [1]. [1] https://writings.stephenwolfram.com/2019/02/seeking-the-productive-life-some-details-of-my-personal-infrastructure/ https://writings.stephenwolfram.com/2019/02/seeking-the-prod...
- moffkalast 3y ago
  That seems like a good fit for some times of the year, but given that IP68 laptops aren't a thing yet (somehow?) it limits you to days of good weather and not too much sun or your screen at max brightness will drain the battery in record time. Quite a hurdle for forming a habit around it. Maybe with a waterproof tablet + bluetooth keyboard + beefy powerbank or solar panel setup if your work can be done in the laughably limited confines of a mobile OS. Something like the treadmill setup he tested would make more sense for daily use, but the heart rate data he mentions makes it sound completely useless.

dkjaudyeqooe 3y ago

I use my computer lying down. Once you discover the utility and comfort of this approach, you'll never want to give it up.

zer8k 3y ago

Can someone explain to me how you can slip a disk typing? I can't contort myself in a way I feel anything more than the occasional back muscle pain. Is the author unusually weak or something? I exercise frequently so perhaps my back is stronger than usual. Still, it seems extremely odd to me you can hurt yourself in that way just simply sitting. Hunched or not.

tagawa 3y ago
Author here. Unusually weak? Yes, probably! I didn't feel any sudden pain, it kind of built up over a couple of days, although I've had back problems on and off for the past 5-6 years. In any case, this latest (and worse) occurrence was after a rather intense few weeks on a project with late nights, me not exercising/stretching properly, and coding either hunched over a desk or slouched on the sofa. I'm embarrassed just writing this but maybe it'll help someone else avoid this pain.
jq-r 3y ago
I think it's cummulative. I had lower back pain for the last 15 or so years when I would lift something heavy or do something awkwardly (eg diving under desks). But after couple of days it would pass. Last 4 years or so I'm using an ergonomic chair and mostly using a standing desk. And definitely for the whole of my life I've been trying to sit properly and was very attentive at my posture. Even my therapist says that my back muscles are relatively very strong and nicely developed. Nevertheless starting this year I've noticed that the back pain wasn't going away and actually getting worse. So headed to the certified PT. After 2 months of hard work it actually got slightly worse and I went to a private clinic and had a MR[0]. Bulging disc at L5/S1 and herniated L4/L5. Surgery recommended as by that time I was in quite a lot of pain and discomfort. 3 days before the surgery I was in extreme pain. They've supposedly fixed the L5/S1 and the other one wasn't touched because it didn't bulge or anything. So that was in March, and I still didn't recover and I have a feeling that my spine is hanging on that small piece of disc remaining and bit of other tissues. Still doing PT religiously, swimming between off-days. It is getting better on average, but unfortunately not linearly or without regressions. And awfully slow. [0] I was waiting there a bit because spine problems "always happen to other people", and at the same time I was hopeful that PT would get me back on track.

underdeserver 3y ago

Do the exercises, not just the stretches. Squats and situps or planks. The difference between no exercise and little, but consistent, exercise is ridiculously large.

avalys 3y ago

I've been programming for ~20 years and I sit very slouched, with my butt resting at the at very forward lip of my chair. This is very comfortable and relaxed and puts no pressure on my back at all. I keep my monitor high up so my head is elevated. If the need arises, I can do this for 12 hours a day without being uncomfortable or sore at all by the evening. Sitting ramrod straight in the proper "ergonomic" position seems like a disaster waiting to happen. It's super uncomfortable and stresses my back, my arms, my neck.

aradox66 3y ago
Sitting on the front edge of a chair with your head elevated is the exact instructions for how to sit ergonomically. The spine is naturally quite curved in its proper "stacked" position, and it's easy to get it wrong and overstrain if you're going for something like "ramrod straight"
oarfish 3y ago
"Proper posture" is not a thing, so this is reasonable.

scubbo 3y ago

Let me just drop in to recommend the Kinesis Advantage 2, a keyboard I bought about 6 years ago after first noticing wrist pain. It's probably my only purchase that beats Factorio in "benefit-per-dollar". I absolutely love it. Haven't used the 360 (it wasn't available when I bought it), but that looks even better.

fredrikholm 3y ago
Similar praise to the unfortunately named Ultimate Hacking Keyboard. Split keyboard that can be rotated and titled exactly to fit your needs was the difference between bilateral pinky side pain radiating to my elbows to absolutely no pain in a matter of a few weeks. That, and it's a damn fine, steel cased macro-able keyboard.

newaccount74 3y ago

I think that working in the same position every day, for hours, is going to have bad effects even if you are in the best position. If you always stress exactly the same muscles, it's going to start hurting at some point. So my solution is to change it up. I often change the setup of my screens, I switch between keyboards and mice, sometimes I work on my couch on my laptop, sometimes at the office, occasionally at a standing desk. I think the variation helps.

fleaaa 3y ago

Using laptop is a last resort...

precompute 3y ago

- exercise! - use an external monitor, stop squinting at a 15" screen. There you go.

parasti 3y ago

I tried a standing desk. It boosted my productivity for sure - when I wanted to procrastinate instead I just switched between sitting/standing and kept working. It also created a couple of health problems. First, I started to feel pain in my left shoulder. After a while I realized that it's caused by leaning on my left arm as a way to let my feet rest. Then, I started to feel tingling/numbness in one of my knees. It persisted for weeks until I stopped using a standing desk.

woodruffw 3y ago

Posture is very important. What’s also important is not trusting a chiropractor, like this article (previously) stated: chiropractic is a quack medicine[1] that ranges somewhere between harmless (but falsely advertised) massage and dangerous, sometimes fatal, spinal manipulation[2]. Edit: Amended to reflect the fact that this was likely a translation error. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiropractic https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiropractic [2]: https://web.archive.org/web/20100516074554/http://jrsm.rsmjournals.com/cgi/content/full/100/7/330 https://web.archive.org/web/20100516074554/http://jrsm.rsmjo...

thepostman0 3y ago
Obligatory bullshit episode: https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0771272/ https://m.imdb.com/title/tt0771272/
- overlordalex 3y ago
  Obligatory Behind the Bastards podcast episode: https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-behind-the-bastards-29236323/episode/how-chiropractic-started-as-a-ghost-48498573/ https://www.iheart.com/podcast/105-behind-the-bastards-29236...
sedivy94 3y ago
The chiropractor’s assessment, as mentioned in the article, is consistent with the research I’ve gathered over a decade of amateur bodybuilding and powerlifting. I would bet many athletes will disagree with the above sentiment surrounding chiropractors. I personally haven’t met one practicing holistic medicine. What I primarily see in practices is active release therapy (ART), Graston, cupping, along with traditional physical therapy - an aggregate of effective soft tissue and joint manipulation techniques. Back cracks just happen to come with the package.
- woodruffw 3y ago
  The assessment might be correct; this does not make a chiropractor qualified to make it.

gukoff 3y ago

The only habit you need are the regular strength exercises, especially for the stability of the back muscles. Please, please forget about the stretches or "ergonomics" if you don't excersise. It will not help you in the long run.

jaggederest 3y ago
I've found no research that indicates static stretching does anything except increase your tolerance for static stretching, anyway. No reduction in injury, no increase in range of motion, no functional benefits. Do it if it feels good, otherwise don't feel obligated.
- gukoff 3y ago
  Exactly. And stretching may lead to the further injuries if your muscles are weak and can't support the safe movement during the full range of motion. Especially if you already have hypermobility. The author should talk to a knowledgeable physiotherapist, not a chiropractor...

sharperguy 3y ago

I think regular sports involving use of muscles really helps with this. Either weight lifting, with an emphasis on squats and deadlifts, bouldering, certain forms of yoga, calisthetics etc. Keeping your overall muscles strong supports the rest of your body throughout the day while you work.

634636346 3y ago

[flagged]

moneywoes 3y ago
Thanks for confirming my suspicion Unfortunately, this trend is only going to get worse
- tagawa 3y ago
  Author here. It's hand-written, not AI-generated, although the header images are (Stability).
jamilton 3y ago
IIRC, chiropractors empirically can/do provide short-term pain relief, just not long-term fixes. And short-term pain relief is a reasonable thing to want. It's on the front page because it was upvoted and other things were upvoted less at this time.
frob 3y ago
The articles dated July 2 and 6th are both about how to hide api keys and say basically the same thing. The header images all look like they came from the same base prompt. And, just for icing, the rest of the posts are all about how to use chatGPT
- tagawa 3y ago
  Author here. I did the first API key hiding post (and accompanying video) for local code, but got a question about how to hide API keys when deploying code remotely. I couldn't update the original video so I decided to create a new one instead, and accompanying post, and then link them to each other. For the header images, I use Stability and yes, use the same base prompt so they all have a consistent feel. The posts so far are about using the GPT API because there was a positive reaction to an initial post I put out, so I expanded on that. I wanted to have a specific focus rather than just learning Python in general. It's still early days for the site so I'm still finding my way.

simonbarker87 3y ago

Gosh that MRI looks just like mine from 2016. Herniation of the L5S1 disc, minor slip/misalignment of the vertebrae and some tearing of the longitudinal posterior ligament. Mine was caused by poor squat form due to a lack of ankle mobility + sitting badly. Took me 3 years to rehab it fully, with no need for surgery with a mix of standing desk, regular physiotherapy, changing movement patterns and time. There is clear evidence that so long as the hernia isn’t causing imminent danger to bodily functions then the recovery path for having surgery and not having surgery is basically the same. Also, chiro’s are quacks - their core thesis is treating (from memory) luxations, of which there is no evidence of existing. If you have an injury, find a physio who isn’t afraid to work on you with manipulations, massage, cupping, scraping, dry needling, mobilisations AND prescriptive exercises for mobility and strength work.

tagawa 3y ago
3 years?! You have my sympathies. I never understood just how painful it was when a friend told me they had a slipped disc, until it happened to me too. Regarding the chiropractor, this may be a mistranslation on my part. I live in Japan and go to a 接骨院 which is probably closer to an osteopath (I didn't realise there was a difference), so I've updated the post.

tru1ock 3y ago

I only use a kneeling chair. Also daily short 15-20min HIIT with pull ups have resolved all my back problems. I highly recommend the simple and sinister daily energizer approach. After work when you are tired and mentally drained is the best time to exercise. This gives you energy to do your own things for the remainder of the day.

teekert 3y ago

The best posture is your next one. Just keep moving guys, and train those core muscles that keep your back straight.

synergy20 3y ago

I rarely use my laptop as a coding device, must have external monitors and keyboards, otherwise my neck hurts quickly. the laptop by design is too close between its keyboard and monitor, I wonder how others can use it continuously. I hope in public areas we have some monitor+keyboard+mouse there for use(or rent, like the EV chargers to-be-built-more or the gas-stations-everywhere), everyone just brings his/her laptop, or even a little raspberry pi or intel NUC, or cast their phone screen, then plug and get work done.

mellosouls 3y ago

wrt posture, this cool (because its simple and pithy) Chrome extension has reminded me every 20 minutes for years to "Sit Up Straight, Cuz" and similar admonitions. https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/postureminder/dkmkfopiihabelocpelofchappjjnpkm https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/postureminder/dkmk... https://github.com/sheryllun/postureminder https://github.com/sheryllun/postureminder

vjerancrnjak 3y ago

I've been sitting long in front of the computer since I was 6. Being slouched, crossing your legs, many positions are an act of stretching. Skin will stretch, spine curvature will change, knee/hip tissue will stretch. I have lost all of the curvature in the neck and spine. Outside of X-ray showing that neck/back lost its natural curvature, there's no tissue/disc damage. Doctors say it is quite normal for anyone sitting to lose curvature. My sitting experience was never accompanied by pain. I did notice knee & hip pain during longer walks in the left leg that I usually keep in a more stretched position while sitting (crossing or tucking legs). Since I've incorporated strength training (heavy squat/deadlift/overhead press) years ago there's no pain any more (interesting observation, left leg grew much more). I have no idea if sitting, for me, is detrimental at all.

Roark66 3y ago

Kudos for the author for raising this. I'd add one more thing to consider. No Touch Typing. Despite my many decades in IT I never learned to "properly" touch type. I type at the typical 40 wpm looking at the keyboard and moving my forearms and hands very frequently. However, recently I tried to learn touch typing. I set my chair/monitor/keyboard as recommended and I commenced some typing exercises with my fingers planted on the home row. After an hour of this I felt my wrists are definitely going to give up if I carry on (mainly due to hands being held in this cramped position for a long time instead of random movements). Classic keyboards force you into a very unnatural angle where forearms point towards the centre and wrists are bent outwards to make both hands parallel. A split keyboard can probably resolve this. But entering into the realm of non standard keyboards has certain disadvantages (lack of portability). Then there is a slippery slope of.. If I'm contemplating a split keyboard why not go further into curved keyboards, key rows that are not offset and so on... It all becomes a long and expensive process of buying/building lots of "weird" keyboards. All of it could be avoided, just by giving up on touch typing. Unless anyone has a better idea?

yoyohello13 3y ago
A wrist rest is essential for me. I notice without one my wrists and shoulders start to ache. A good wrist rest with lots of padding elevates your wrists to a good typing position without pinching the tendons.
esperent 3y ago
I recently switched to a fancy split ergo keyboard. One with actual separate halves. Normal 65% layout, no messing around with control keys and layers except for the function keys. It took a couple of days to get used to. But an interesting side effect after using it for six months - I can now touch type. I didn't try to learn to touch type and I can't do it if I switch back to a normal keyboard (which feels very cramped now). I also am sure I don't do "correct" touch typing, especially with my right hand. I don't know if this helps my coding. But in a way, using the keyboard feels more like playing an instrument now. I think that is useful, although it's impossible to quantify how useful, of course. Edit: this is the one I got: https://keeb.io/collections/pre-built-keyboards/products/quefrency-keyboard-pre-built https://keeb.io/collections/pre-built-keyboards/products/que... Initially feels like a crazy amount to spend on a keyboard but it's fully repairable and I expect it to last for many years. Just wish it was wireless.

temporallobe 3y ago

Been coding mostly from hone to 20+ years. You need: 1. Adjustable height desk (sit/stand, whatever) 2. External monitor, full-size keyboard, and mouse 3. Comfy chair (NOT necessarily “ergonomic”). If you’re comfortable and your body doesn’t hurt when standing or changing position, then it’s a good chair). 4. Frequent mental breaks (play guitar, games, fidget toys, etc.) 5. Post-nut clarity

pmulard 3y ago

I’ve been dealing with a herniated disc for almost a year now. It’s completely changed how I view my body, and it’s made me forever grateful for my health - along with complete respect for those dealing with chronic medical issues. For the first few months I could barely get out of bed. Nine months later and I can only walk a mile or two a day. Unfortunately, I was laid off right before it happened and haven’t been table to get surgery. Talk about bad luck. This experience has accentuated how horrible the American healthcare system is to me. Even if I wanted take another turn in the service industry until I get back into engineering, I can’t, because I need my body fixed first.

buggyipadmettoo 3y ago
The stretch picture in the article might be the worst imaginable for someone with a herniated disc. Need to be bending the opposite way!

synesso 3y ago

As someone in his position 20+ years ago who did a lot of stretching and yoga for recovery, I can attest that this will only take you so far. Real gains come when you lift weights, which I started at the age of 49. The deadlift is a particularly good remedy for lumbar pain. Start on low weights with good form. Programmers develop weak lumbar support and stretching weak muscles can bring short term relief, but will not resolve the underlying issue. In time, stretching no longer becomes effective without over-stretching, which brings its own problems. Building that muscular support is key.

liampulles 3y ago

I invested in a Herman Miller Aeron to try help with my posture and back, and it was uncomfortable for months. Eventually I adjusted, which was helped by finding a proper height desk and losing a bit of weight. Just saying this so people know: a good chair is not necessarily an instant fix.

oarfish 3y ago

Stretching feels good, but has little effect in injury prevention. In general, back pain is very common across the population and quite resistant to reliable prevention or treatment. I think there was a study that found only education and physical activity had any effect at all (and stretching is not useful for meeting minimum physical activity standards). Also, people tend to develop disc bulges as they age, and the vast majority are asymptomatic. In this case probably the pain is actually caused by the herniation, but don't nocebo yourself into pain just because there are some deformities in your spine.