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FBI improperly used 702 surveillance powers on US senator
- raincom 3y agoWho is going to bell the cat, when institutions and individuals legally collude?
- asveikau 3y agoHard to read this without knowing more details. It just said the senator was targeted because they were a target of foreign spies, but crossed lines in doing so. No names or specifics. I guess in another sense it may be better that the public doesn't know, because that information could sway voters unjustly.
- Bud 3y ago[dead]
- roenxi 3y agoIn this instance, doesn't the FBI have the power to make it illegal to know more details? That was always one of the major weaknesses of the unhinged post-9/11 reforms. Easily abused powers with insufficient checks and no effective channels to uncover abuse. If someone is capable of believing that reform is necessary they'll have to come up with an opinion on the subject without concrete details. James Clapper has a proud record of literally lying to Congress in order to cover up the spy program and the consequences are a plum job at CNN. Which could be spun as a punishment I suppose, but realistically he probably doesn't think so. That isn't an outcome from a system that is going to provide concrete details. I'm not sure if anyone spied on Obama, but both subsequent presidents have been spied on by their political opponents. A trend likely to continue given the partisan groundwork that has been laid since 2016. There will be rampant nonpartisan corruption in the intelligence agencies targeting US politicians of all stripes.
- TechBro8615 3y agoIt's on ongoing investigation bro just trust me bro it's an ongoing investigation so I can't tell you about it! - Every FBI testimony to the oversight committee
- trompetenaccoun 3y agoHowever, how does one run a successful spy operation where everything's done in the open? The fundamental problem is the main adversaries the US faces (China, Russia, Iran & co) are not bound by open society rules. Since at least WW2, in trying to fight back against these dictatorial and at times totalitarian regimes, the US has itself become a bit like them. If you gaze long into an abyss... More democratic oversight of US spy agencies is Xi's dream, it would mean they won't even have to do much spying because the US themselves would lay open all their intelligence agency work in plain sight in committees and public hearings. So how do you balance the two, how to preserve freedom while fighting an enemy that feeds on this weakness? That is rarely ever discussed and democracies don't seem to have found good solutions to this dilemma at all. That is part of the reason why we're seeing ever more surveillance and overreach. Unless ways are found to build open societies more resilient to attacks, things are not going to change. >There will be rampant nonpartisan corruption in the intelligence agencies targeting US politicians of all stripes. That's never been the case in the history of unchecked power. We can argue if it's already the case or not but the loss of neutrality of these agencies is only a matter of time. There is no mechanism in place that would prevent it.
- roenxi 3y ago> However, how does one run a successful spy operation where everything's done in the open? The obvious answer is you don't? It is punching at phantom enemies - the FBI turned out to be the bigger source of disinformation than the Russians. US politicians are for sale (see Joe Biden's recent scandals, but there isn't much evidence he is unusual in the halls of Congress). The US intelligence service doesn't do anything about that. The spy program is a much more fit-for-purpose tool for internal corruption than fighting external forces.
- TMWNN 3y agoYou're basically restating influx's >I need to know which party the senator belongs to, so I can decide whether to be outraged. Except he was being sarcastic.
- asveikau 3y agoI don't know how I can be restating a comment that was written after mine. I did not say anything partisan there. I even said there could be a problem with more disclosure because it could be used electorally and that may be inappropriate. Really we don't know anything specific so we can't judge. It's a weird thing. The FISA courts have been said to be unusual for decades, and I think this story shows some of why that is.
- NeverFade 3y agoIt seems like violations that used to be rare and unique, and a huge deal like Watergate when they blew up, have become completely routine. Seems like we get such stories every week now.
- tstrimple 3y agoReminds me of the Macklemore lyrics in his song "A Wake". > I grew up during Reaganomics > When Ice T was out there on his killing-cops shit > Or Rodney King was getting beat on > And they let off every single officer > And Los Angeles went and lost it > Now every month there's a new Rodney on YouTube > It's just something our generation is used to Edit: forgot anything to do with woke or being aware of a situation will trigger the anti-wokes. Apparently the fact that Rodney King was beaten on camera and all of the officers were let go with no consequences is very upsetting to some folk who think police can do no wrong.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- fallingknife 3y ago“Let me tell you, you take on the intelligence community, they have six ways from Sunday at getting back at you” - Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer
- throwawaylinux 3y agoThe problem is, when they've divided the country so completely, they have 50% of the population cheering them on no matter who they are "getting back at". Sad.
- WiSaGaN 3y agoFor context, this quote was from 2017 "Chuck Schumer: Donald Trump Captured By Hard Right | Rachel Maddow | MSNBC": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3p2zKPQSgI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c3p2zKPQSgI
- sneak 3y agoReminder: FAA702 is used for warrantless spying. No probable cause is required. Apple, Meta, Google, Microsoft, and others have tools available for FBI/DHS to access data in/on their servers in realtime in response to Section 702 orders from the state. The federal police can read anything in your gmail, your google docs, your complete iMessage history, your complete iCloud photo library, etc, without a warrant, at any time, 24/7/365. No probable cause or reasonable suspicion is needed. They just get to download it.
- m00x 3y agoWell that sounds like overreach.
- SV_BubbleTime 3y agoOh, well, but see, they “stop terrorism”. And if supply is low, they make some.
- imjonse 3y agoyour comment may have triggered a sentiment analysis model causing your accounts here and elsewhere to be flagged just in case they need to be 702ed in the future :)
- lern_too_spel 3y agoIf you are not an American and not in the US and your data is suspected to have specific types of foreign intelligence information after the company receiving the request approves it and configures account data forwarding to DITU. https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/how-we-investigate/intelligence/foreign-intelligence-surveillance-act-fisa-and-section-702 https://www.fbi.gov/investigate/how-we-investigate/intellige...
- sneak 3y agoThe article addresses that.
- efitz 3y agoHow do you bring an out of control bureaucracy under control, especially when they wield law enforcement powers and use them against political enemies and whistleblowers?
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- willcipriano 3y ago"we have had 13. states independant 11. years. there has been one rebellion. that comes to one rebellion in a century & a half for each state. what country before ever existed a century & half without a rebellion? & what country can preserve it's liberties if their rulers are not warned from time to time that their people preserve the spirit of resistance? let them take arms. the remedy is to set them right as to facts, pardon & pacify them. what signify a few lives lost in a century or two? the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. it is it's natural manure." https://www.loc.gov/exhibits/jefferson/105.html https://www.loc.gov/exhibits/jefferson/105.html
- dmvdoug 3y agoThomas Jefferson: reliably wrong.
- mardifoufs 3y agoNot really. I mean, in general sure but that specific snippet was very accurate for his time. And perhaps it still even applies now.
- jackcosgrove 3y agoBureaucracies are reformed by building a parallel bureaucracy with overlapping responsibilities, funneling new talent to the new bureau, and letting the old bureau age out.
- cpursley 3y ago
- influx 3y agoI need to know which party the senator belongs to, so I can decide whether to be outraged.
- kyleblarson 3y agoSomewhere in nature right now there is a poor phoneless man sitting peacefully next a waterfall who has no idea how outraged he should be.
- brookst 3y agoI’ve been that guy. I assure you one can work up a very frothy outrage at the damn mosquitos.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- dtgriscom 3y agoI really don't like the part of me which eagerly leaps at confirmation bias. It doesn't help me, it doesn't help my "allies", it doesn't help the world.
- m00x 3y agoIt feels like even Western governments are becoming more and more protective of their aristocrat-class, and openly collude and steal from the people. Canada (legally) abused its judicial reach on finance institutions during the pandemic. The US Congress is pretty much openly using insider knowledge to win big on stocks. The Democrats launched FBI investigations against their political opponents without sufficient legal backing. The Republicans tried to bully their way into countering the will of the people by blocking the presidential election results. France passed through unconstitutional reforms without the votes. The UK's Conservative party misled the public about the EU to get the Brexit vote. All of this without a care in the world about the effects it has on its citizens. All they care about is themselves and their fights. They have completely lost track of serving the people, and are fully comfortable in serving themselves at the expense of the people. [Disclaimer: Am Canadian, voted Liberal x2, and I disagree with the protests that happened, but I don't approve of that specific measure.]
- ashwagary 3y ago>It feels like even Western governments are becoming more and more protective of their aristocrat-class, and openly collude and steal from the people. Western governments have always openly stolen from people.
- yieldcrv 3y agothis “moral decay of the West” was one of the primary observations and frustrations of Osama’s writings if you ever read it he was a scholar from a rich family before he chose violence not trying to be edgy, just reminded me that it is a recurring observation and it takes more and more candid actions for people raised within those countries to notice for themselves and consider it egregious or intolerable
- FollowingTheDao 3y agoSo what. The stories constantly come out and no one does anything. Wake me up when there’s a Revolution…
- lern_too_spel 3y agoThis comes from an oversight report. The FBI itself reformed its procedures earlier this year, resulting in far fewer such cases after, and people are pushing for more reforms in the law itself before reauthorization. Every single time, people do something, making it better over time. https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/coalition-statement-urges-congress-reform-section-702 https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/coal...
- hajile 3y agoFewer cases or fewer cases that can be discovered? Who's going to verify actual change to a better, less corrupt FBI? From the very first, the FBI spied on politicians using that information to control them and protect itself from investigations. They have never been reigned in and have never been given a reason to stop these practices (and asking them to regulate themselves is self-evidently a crazy proposal).
- lern_too_spel 3y ago> Fewer cases or fewer cases that can be discovered? Who's going to verify actual change to a better, less corrupt FBI? Fewer cases. Congress. https://www.fbi.gov/about/faqs/who-monitors-or-oversees-the-fbi https://www.fbi.gov/about/faqs/who-monitors-or-oversees-the-... > They have never been reigned in and have never been given a reason to stop these practices The Church Committee led to the creation of the US Senate Select Committee on Intelligence. Believing that the FBI is unstoppable demonstrates both a fundamental misunderstanding of checks and balances and democratic government as well as an unfamiliarity with history.
- theknocker 3y ago[dead]
- rezonant 3y agoWhoa, they can't surveil the term-unlimited political oligarchy! What a violation of their privacy! 702 is meant for those who are not politicians!
- sneak 3y agoI know you're being sarcastic, but those who aren't politicians and judges and lawmakers don't wield any power. Things like 702 exist specifically for lawmakers and judges - otherwise you can't blackmail and extort them, and the coup by the IC doesn't work.
- backtoyoujim 3y agoHow do we use the RICO laws to disassemble US law enforcement ?
- perihelions 3y agoI'll just drop this here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Edgar_Hoover https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Edgar_Hoover For the FBI to spy on elected officials and public figures, and use their secrets to blackmail them into doing what the FBI wants, is more than a realistic concern: it's a historical fact that government power-brokers ran that kind of racket on a large scale, spanning decades. Hoover's technical capabilities were a fraction of the digital era's. These are incredibly dangerous powers to have concentrated in one place.
- soderfoo 3y agoAny recommendations for a book about Hoover? I just finished reading The Devil's Chessboard about Allen Dulles and the nascent CIA. It's a great book if you haven't read it.
- fnordpiglet 3y agoG-Man (Pulitzer Prize Winner): J. Edgar Hoover and the Making of the American Century https://a.co/d/5xKzQfn https://a.co/d/5xKzQfn
- soderfoo 3y agoThanks, I really appreciate it!
- toyg 3y agoKillers of the Flower Moon has a young Hoover in its cast of characters, and it does a pretty good job of describing his rise. It's also a fantastic book in its own right, which should be read before the incoming movie spoils it forever.
- tempodox 3y agoI have always been wondering about this apparent lack of self-preservation instinct in politicians.
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- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- dehrmann 3y agoHopefully overreaches like this let lawmakers know why privacy is important, the executive branch has a few too many tools, and secret courts can be abused.
- sharts 3y agoAt this point I’m beginning to think North Korea might be more free.
- Loughla 3y agoAre you being serious? I know we are supposed to assume good faith, but your statement is so ridiculous that it's not really easy to tell if it's sarcasm or not.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y agoGood. I actually have no issue with these surveillance powers but more scrutiny is better.
- andy_ppp 3y agoWhen politicians strive for ever greater surveillance powers they seem to always forget they are also potentially being watched. People always say this could never happen to them!
- bradleyjg 3y agoWe are communicating as much as we can to build that level of confidence so that they understand how we are using the tool and how we are holding people accountable for when they are not using the tool correctly. Well? What percentage of inappropriate queries lead to someone being terminated?
- kelipso 3y agoI love how no one here can have a proper conversation about this, or anything political really, because they have to figure out whether the commenter is red or blue before replying.
- balderdash 3y ago2% of the 120,000 searches last year were estimated by the FBI to be non-compliant. Where are the prosecutions and dismissals? https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/fbi-improperly-searched-us-senators-name-in-foreign-spying-database/ar-AA1ebgzc https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/fbi-improperly-searc...
- briandear 3y ago“The FBI on Friday sent a letter to House and Senate leaders noting that several different reviews found agents have complied with FISA guidelines at least 98 percent of the time.” It’s in that 2% you get tyranny.
- theknocker 3y ago[dead]
- nxx788 3y agoThe FBI are cops, are we supposed to be surprised cops abused their power? Also, if they are doing this to a senator, surely they are doing it to many, many Americans. Hopefully this will cause the senator to push for less power for the FBI.
- jscipione 3y agoI no longer trust the FBI and see them as a partisan political paramilitary organization. They are more like storm troopers than police. Joe Biden in is by far the worst President in American history, I’m not sure our Republic can recover from the horrors. I’m not sure we would want to if we could, it’s gone too far now to go back to how things were.
- bborud 3y agoI'm neither surprised, nor would I immediately have assumed that it was unwarranted if someone had told me the FBI was looking into a senator. (I have no idea which party the senator belongs to and I don't think it even matters)