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The force that shapes everything around us: Parking

266 points by vwoolf 3y ago

indigosparkle6 3y ago
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pink1321 3y ago
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pink1321 3y ago
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anideazzz 3y ago
You could mandate underground parking lots for every new structure. Then liberate access to that parking via an app so that not only the above the parking lot folks take advantage of it.
julesontour45 3y ago
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itronitron 3y ago
us should probably be capitalized in the title, (i.e. US)
- tekla 3y ago
  Well, its not capitalized in the article title, nor does capitalizing it make sense in context, and the original title makes sense just fine. So no?
- jwestbury 3y ago
  Also Canada, the UK, many parts of Europe... Car-centricity may be worse in the US, but it's not unique to the US.
- pc86 3y ago
  It's the word "us," not an abbreviation.
  - hfkwer 3y ago
    I imagine that itronitron's point is that the issue of parking as presented in the article is a typically American feature. Many other countries deal with it differently.
TeeWEE 3y ago
Come to the Netherlands. Sell your car. Buy a bike. A car is not really a status symbol here. Its more like a liability.
- pc86 3y ago
  For what percentage of people in rural or suburban America do you think "move to the Netherlands" is a realistic suggestion?
  - MezzoDelCammin 3y ago
    Just out of curiosity - how big of an issue is parking in rural US?
    - tekla 3y ago
      It's an issue when it takes 10m to walk to the Walmart entrance from the parking lot. (This is intended as humor)
      - MezzoDelCammin 3y ago
        Yeah, it's kind of a pity that once the cars vs bikes debate comes up, irony is often really not obvious. The best take on this topic so far I've seen has been from "Not Just Cars": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nZh7A7qTPo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nZh7A7qTPo
      - acchow 3y ago
        Sadly, sometimes in the US it takes just as long to walk within the parking lot as the equivalent total travel time would have been in a walkable European or Asian city
    - sleepybrett 3y ago
      In terms of 'will I have space to park my vehicle pretty much anywhere', little to none. In terms of, 'we could make way better use of all this land that's given over to parking' tons.
falcolas 3y ago
I think you need to go one level deeper: People needing to move non-trivial distances for periodic tasks shapes everything. Cars, and thus car parking, come about because of this need. Even before cars existed, roads and parking (such as hitching posts and stables) still existed because people needed to move. And even bicycles (electric or not) need parking too. There are startups dedicated to creating automated bike parking garages to limit theft.
- ttymck 3y ago
  Why do I need to go to the mall? Because there is no retail zoning closer to my home.
  - kelseyfrog 3y ago
    Yep, cars facilitate cities of unsustainably low density. Reducing car use results in either migration to restore the density equilibrium, transit, or in situ densification. Pick at least one.
  - balfirevic 3y ago
    My city has plenty of all kinds of shops where people live, but they (and I) still go to malls because shops there are larger and better equipped, there are more of them and you can walk between them at nice temperature and protected from the rain.
    - lotsofpulp 3y ago
      Yes, small shops in neighborhoods will never be able to match the price to utility ratio of large shopping complexes with businesses like Costco, Target, Walmart, Best Buy, Ikea, Home Depot, Apple, Kroger, etc. As long as one has access to a personal car, and those above big businesses are available within 30min, even 45min, it is basically impossible for a smaller, local retailer to compete. And now you have the internet and delivery to your door to compete with too.
    - ttymck 3y ago
      Glad to hear it. Sounds like you have an excellent balance of options available to you. It seems like a not insignificant amount of malls aren't sustaining themselves, so I wonder if the balance you described is a world where malls can thrive.
kelseyfrog 3y ago
What else can be done? Universal lot sharing agreements, shared parking, and annulling reserved parking stipulations. Especially the later is a structural factor in the oversupply of parking. It's the parking equivalent of circuit-switching networks - which naturally results in the oversupply of circuits. Mutatis mutandis for all things parking. If one is to admit that these played a role in the oversupply of parking, then it's imperative to annul them to make progress towards right-sizing parking supply.
- josephcsible 3y ago
  What is this "oversupply of parking" you speak of? In every city I've ever been to, parking was very scarce and expensive.
  - kelseyfrog 3y ago
    The one refered to in the article. What were your thoughts on how they defined it?
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - tekla 3y ago
    Well if you read the article, there are multiples more of parking than cars. And yes, parking is scare in cities, because cities use the space for more efficient purposes.
- revscat 3y ago
  > What else can be done? Reduce the regulatory regimes that force cars on business owners and individuals: eliminate street level parking requirements for property owners, create car-free zones in city centers, declare war on Saudi Arabia, prioritize foot traffic in new commercial development, set minimums for bike/pedestrian friendly mileage, decrease the number of single family residences and increase multi-family domiciles. There's a lot.
mikrl 3y ago
I visited metro Detroit for the first time on Saturday and the parking situation was abysmal but this is perhaps understandable in a large city. I thought my small city in Canada was bad! We couldn’t even park downtown since it appears you need to book it in advance and the trip was somewhat spontaneous. I just ended up pulling over (by a no stopping sign ha) on a quiet side street and setting the GPS back to Windsor.
- jakemoshenko 3y ago
  Detroit, as the capital of the auto industry, has far more parking than just about any other city I've ever been to. There are huge, multi-story garages right on the main thoroughfare downtown. https://bigthink.com/strange-maps/parking-lots-eat-american-cities/ https://bigthink.com/strange-maps/parking-lots-eat-american-... > Detroit was, or is, Motor City. Its center can pull off another automotive-related nickname: Parking Central. Fully one-third of downtown Detroit is dedicated to letting cars do what they’re not designed for: standing still.
  - mikrl 3y ago
    That’s what I thought! But all of the five or so garages we tried cost $20-40 flat with no ticket machines or anything, and I wasn’t willing to download/fight with an app to walk around for an hour. Next trip will be more planned for sure. I was impressed with the highways though. Definitely a motorists’ dream to get around the various suburbs.
    - 2023throwawayy 3y ago
      Needing to download an app, and saying "you need to book in advance" are not the same thing. Just because you didn't want to deal with it and didn't do research ahead of time doesn't mean "We couldn’t even park downtown". You didn't want to, and that's fine.
      - mikrl 3y ago
        You’re splitting hairs, which I can also do: There’s a giant parking lot with 10,000 spaces and 2 are free. There is ‘no parking’ unless you want to drive around for 2 hours. For enough money you could probably get a permit from the cops and a security detail and park wherever you wanted, like in a city park. There is still ‘no parking’ in parks. Within parameters that apply in the majority of cities I’ve tried to park in, there was no parking. In future I’ll download the app, book a spot and bring my phone charger and then I’ll be able to access the parking.
xnx 3y ago
Seems like parking is a side effect for people's preference for larger houses and yards. Convince people to live in smaller houses and share walls with their neighbors, and the parking situation would change dramatically.
- josephcsible 3y ago
  > live in smaller houses and share walls with their neighbors Doing either of those things makes your standard of living worse.
  - f1yght 3y ago
    That's your opinion, sharing a wall but being able to walk or bike easily to everything I need it a huge boost to my quality of life.
    - 2023throwawayy 3y ago
      If you get lucky and get quiet and/or friendly neighbors, sure.
      - closeparen 3y ago
        Sound isolation is part of the price/quality tradeoff. Urban housing is just so scarce relative to demand that almost no one can afford quality.
  - pivo 3y ago
    So does having to drive to work, sit in traffic, pay for and maintain the car (or more likely in the US, cars.) I live in a city, share walls, and am less than a 10 minute walk from my office. My coworkers come in early and leave work late to avoid traffic. I'm home before they can get their car out of the parking garage and I can easily go home for lunch. I think my standard of living is therefore higher than someone who must drive to work.
  - xnx 3y ago
damnesian 3y ago
>You could imagine a world in which streets were pedestrianized and where we planted trees and gardens and in what is currently space reserved for parking, and closed streets, outside schools, so kids can have places to play. I would love to see a LOT more of this in urban centers. I live in a college town that is about the same size as Iowa City. Iowa City has taken the step of closing off their downtown and making it mostly pedestrian space. It's incredibly nice to explore the area on foot. Our city has considered the same idea but pedestrianizing our downtown has been so controversial when it has been discussed, it hasn't come up for over a decade- mayors are scared to death to touch it. Part of the reason is poor past civic planning would make it very expensive to correct. The main conduit through the downtown business district is also the major East-West artery of town, making the street one of those dreaded "stroads-" a street in the sense that there is heavy commercial and residential presence, resulting in a LOT of local foot traffic and stops all day long; mixed with traffic that just wants to get through downtown to somewhere else. So half of the traffic is looking for parking and the other half is running red lights to get somewhere else as fast as possible. There have been, predictably, many incidents involving cars, pedestrians and bicycles. But not one inch moved on what's become the 800lb gorilla. I don't think a solution is even possible.
- Mountain_Skies 3y ago
  A college town's context is very different than that of the central business district and inner city of a large metropolitan area. Context doesn't just matter, it's one of, if not the most, important aspects to consider when selecting a development pattern. You can't turn downtown St. Lous into downtown Iowa City or even 'downtown' Seoul, South Korea. Dreamers hate this reality and will contort their assertions every which way they can to avoid admitting any of this.
  - throwbadubadu 3y ago
    But those contexts and also such "contexts transformations" exist, so why possible at some places and unthinkable at others? Just saying "dreamer hits reality hard" is a bit destructive, arrogant, and apparently not the complete necessary truth?
UtopiaPunk 3y ago
There's an interesting interview with a designer of SimCity, where he discusses parking: Geoff Manaugh: While you were making those measurements of different real-world cities, did you discover any surprising patterns or spatial relationships Librande: Yes, definitely. I think the biggest one was the parking lots. When I started measuring out our local grocery store, which I don’t think of as being that big, I was blown away by how much more space was parking lot rather than actual store. That was kind of a problem, because we were originally just going to model real cities, but we quickly realized there were way too many parking lots in the real world and that our game was going to be really boring if it was proportional in terms of parking lots. Manaugh: You would be making SimParkingLot, rather than SimCity. Librande: [laughs] Exactly. So what we do in the game is that we just imagine they are underground. We do have parking lots in the game, and we do try to scale them—so, if you have a little grocery store, we’ll put six or seven parking spots on the side, and, if you have a big convention center or a big pro stadium, they’ll have what seem like really big lots—but they’re nowhere near what a real grocery store or pro stadium would have. We had to do the best we could do and still make the game look attractive. Source: https://bldgblog.com/2013/05/sim-city-an-interview-with-stone-librande/ https://bldgblog.com/2013/05/sim-city-an-interview-with-ston...
- Mountain_Skies 3y ago
  It's a pity that they didn't bake in the option to turn on realistic parking lots and road sizes for the required capacity. It does have traffic jams and more roads can help, especially since the player can control induced demand far more than in reality, but allowing the player to switch between both what's a fun game and what's a realistic simulation could have gone a long way to inform a good chunk of the population on the tradeoffs and impacts of parking and other infrastructure dedicated to automobiles.
  - sleepybrett 3y ago
    I haven't looked at 'cities: skylines' or if there is a sequel... recently. I'm wondering if they finally did start modeling parking. I think 'realistic parking' should probably be an option, like you said some people want the 'classic' sim-city experience and modeling. I'd hate to drive those people away from the 'cities' series, as it just seems to be sim-city without the EA enshittification. I think it could be really interesting to allow users to try to build less car focused cities within the game. To simulate concepts like Barcelona's 'superblocks', to plan bikelanes or golfcart-focused communities like 'the villages'. Generally the devs of 'cities' seem like they are interested in many concepts (there are sooooo many dlc for skylines) .. hopefully this one bubbles up.
elijaht 3y ago
I live car-free in NYC. A large appeal of NYC to me was not having to park. I don't ~mind~ driving, but I absolutely hated having to deal with finding parking when I lived in other cities. Parking generally makes me feel stressed (competition for free spots), or makes me pay (using something like SpotHero makes it easy to find a spot, but costs me). It's not even just major cities either- I'm frequently in a college town in Illinois and parking downtown is a nightmare, and can easily add 10 minutes to your trip time, AND it's paid. Visiting a city I'm not familiar with can add some stress too as you don't know the best parking, unlike cities you are familiar with. NYC has problems of it's own (trains are generally reliable, but tend to have delays right when you need them), but for $33 a week I can get to most major neighborhoods in 30 minutes, walking straight to my destination. Add in $40 for a couple cabs when I prioritize a quicker trip, and I have amazing access to my city for less than $100/week.
- 7speter 3y ago
  > but for $33 a week I can get to most major neighborhoods in 30 minutes Ahh yes, only the most important, noteworthy neighborhoods that most likely aren’t transit deserts, right?
  - AndyKluger 3y ago
    https://subwaysheds.com/ https://subwaysheds.com/
  - elijaht 3y ago
    Some neighborhoods are harder than others, but I have found the subway + bus service + regional rail makes it possible to get ~anywhere~ in an hour from where I live. And those neighborhoods are the exception for me, at least, 99% of my trips really are under 30 minutes. Driving to those places would be 30+ minutes anyways, some of it really is just distance + gridlock
- nradov 3y ago
  I travel around the USA a fair amount. In the vast majority of cities, parking just isn't a problem. I drive my car where I want to go and park. Sometimes I have to pay. But the places where no parking is available are very rare. I am fully in favor of walkable neighborhoods and reducing the need to drive. But lack of parking is just not a stressor that most Americans worry about.
francisofascii 3y ago
> catastrophically mismanaged the way we provide parking in this country > it’s not properly priced It is was interesting how complex the parking situation can be. So many factors come into play when planning a trip to raise my anxiety levels. Factors include: likelihood of availability given your timing, safely of vehicle, price (anywhere from free to $60 a day), time limits, proximity to desired location. I think I would like some sort of reservation system, but I am sure that would come with other unforeseen issues, like rick people reserving everything at all times.
johnea 3y ago
"Why does parking make us so crazy?" I wonder who he means by "us"? I guess, in this modern world, making "us" crazy doesn't require going very far...
Avlin67 3y ago
same as dark matter
squidgyhead 3y ago
ClimateTown has a video about this today! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUNXFHpUhu8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUNXFHpUhu8
- cmcconomy 3y ago
  came here to post this :)
- willio58 3y ago
  ClimateTown, along with Not Just Bikes, City Beautiful, City Nerd, and the like give me hope that the message is getting out. That being said, the more I watch these videos/listen to their podcasts the more I understand that city planners, specifically those in charge of managing traffic and parking, have been taught _incorrectly_ for decades. These content creators regularly say that if we want change we are going to need to go to city council meetings and speak up, but in reality what credentials do I have to talk about this stuff? It's my word as a software dev who consumes content about this against someone who's studied this stuff for years of their life. I don't personally blame the city planners, but I do think that car-centric planning has been engrained into their education fundamentally to the point where plans are made based on factors solely considering number of cars moving through traffic lights for example, vs. number of people crossing an intersection irrespective of mode of transportation.
  - wtp1saac 3y ago
    I think the primary difficulty is not telling planners this, but telling citizens. Most people are so ingrained to use cars in the US that any mention of transit or biking gets a pretty severely negative response, and I’ve seen this in people I know across conservatives, liberals, and even (dumbfoundingly) progressives/leftists. To do this well also requires more dense apartments and mixed use zoning, which similarly upsets many across the political spectrum. I am somewhat hopeful the trends are angling towards proper cities, but my impression of those trends is that it is moreso forward thinking cities/planners trying their best against an extremely misinformed citizenry + our existing terrible infrastructure + under/misfunding + impossible bureaucracy. It’s going to take a lot of effort to get people to actually use alternatives, and I think those channels will only appeal to a very small bubble of urbanism focused leftists. (side note: e-bikes are my personal urbanism bet; they seem good enough to vaguely navigate surface roads and even some stroad conditions, while being able to interface with old bike path networks, and can be easy to park in areas where cities provide bike racks. I’ve had a good experience with one, and no longer use a car for most trips)
FlyingSnake 3y ago
I know this is US-by-default site but does parking really shape everything around us (most of the humanity)? What about South America or Africa? From my experience in living in Asia, USA and Europe, it might only be applicable to USA.
- AlotOfReading 3y ago
  American cities seem to hover around 20-30% land area dedicated to parking in the city cores, according to ParkingReform. Canadian urban planning is largely indistinguishable from American here too. Mexico City is probably similar, with around 40% according to one source [1]. Rio is around 42% of new construction. In all of the cities I checked, it was largest land use category once broken out. Melbourne seems to be better at ~12%, but it's still the third largest land use category despite long-standing efforts to deprioritize cars. If anything, "shapes everything around us" might be understating the reality. [1] https://www.itdp.org/2017/07/26/mexico-city-became-leader-parking-reform/ https://www.itdp.org/2017/07/26/mexico-city-became-leader-pa... [2] https://www.itdp.org/2019/01/31/rio-joins-parking-reform-leaders/ https://www.itdp.org/2019/01/31/rio-joins-parking-reform-lea...
ultra_nick 3y ago
A land value tax would fix this. https://www.thebalancemoney.com/what-is-a-land-value-tax-5205929 https://www.thebalancemoney.com/what-is-a-land-value-tax-520...
- staringback 3y ago
  The solution to every problem: adding another tax
  - enragedcacti 3y ago
    LVT is an alternate scheme for calculating property taxes which already exist in every state in the US.
  - drivers99 3y ago
    The stuff I've seen about LVT is that it's supposed to replace all other taxes with it, as opposed to taxing income/work and property (making improvements on the land, making it and nearby land more valuable).
- ClassyJacket 3y ago
  A drive in cinema I loved going to shut down last week because a land value tax made it impossible to conduct their business there. They were being charged over one thousand dollars per day of tax because in that area, tax is calculated ignoring what's actually on the land. If it was shut down and turned into apartments (which is what's happening now), the tax is spread out across all owners and manageable. But concentrated on one business, it made it impossible to run. Land value tax is anti-business. No thanks.
  - myroon5 3y ago
    > tax is calculated ignoring what's actually on the land Isn't that the point? LVT forces land to be valued more so large less productive land use shifts to more productive use
supportengineer 3y ago
We have an abundance of parking and a shortage of housing, it's too bad we don't have a way to quickly setup housing (even temporary) in parking areas. Most parking is already located near other utilities so they would already be close by. To start with, we could require every parking lot over a certain size provide basic amenities like public restrooms with showers and water fountains.
- gwbas1c 3y ago
  > it's too bad we don't have a way to quickly setup housing (even temporary) in parking areas. RVs. Don't quote me, but I suspect some temporary shelters during disasters are RVs (and go to the exact parking lots you describe.) > We have an abundance of parking and a shortage of housing But I'm not sure that putting RVs in underutilized parking lots will solve the homeless crisis. (Assuming that's what you're referring to.) I generally see a lot of homeless people in very dense cities where parking is at a premium. Maybe "RVs in parking lots as temporary housing" would work for low-wage employees, who sometimes are at risk of becoming homeless due to their low wages?
  - axus 3y ago
    I thought RVs had to worry about electricity and sewer hookups for anything over a few days.
    - gwbas1c 3y ago
      From the parent: > Most parking is already located near other utilities so they would already be close by
  - simplyluke 3y ago
    > I suspect some temporary shelters during disasters are RVs Yes, they're known as FEMA trailers, and gained some national attention in the late 2000s due to toxic levels of formaldehyde in the ones that were used in the Katrina response. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FEMA_trailer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FEMA_trailer
- 3y ago
0xbadcafebee 3y ago
It is insane how much actual land is used for ground-floor parking. You could house every homeless person in the USA with like 1/1000th of the available parking space, and park all the moved cars in vertical parking structures. But, geez, that costs money, and political clout, and homeless people don't exactly have a lobbying group.
- bugglebeetle 3y ago
  It would cost less money than all that is already spent on homelessness combined, but violates the principle that real estate must function first as a wildly profitable speculative asset in expensive urban centers, which is why it’s verboten. You can set billions on fire with BS homelessness programs that both don’t compromise the underlying asset prices and provide myriad opportunities for graft, which is why they’re the favorite form of indirect taxation on real estate put in place by politicians. We already have and spend the money, just in the most corrupt and useless ways imaginable.
gwbas1c 3y ago
I lived for a few years a 5 minute walk from downtown Palo Alto. I still used my car, but significantly less. I can't tell you how wonderful it was to walk, instead of drive, for a random trip to a restaurant. It was even better when going to the bar. I think if we also focused on walkability for residential development, we could cut down on car use. Even though I now live in suburbia, I made sure there were a few places I could walk to before I bought my house.
- lippihom 3y ago
  Imagine how nice it was during Covid when all of University Avenue was closed off to cars! They've reversed all of that now... such a shame.
GrumpyNl 3y ago
This is a real USA problem.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
ubermonkey 3y ago
My whole life I've struggled with the need for cars in the places I've lived. Very few US cities have the right infrastructure to go car-free, and the places I personally have lived feature such unrelentingly hot summers that going anywhere without AC is pretty much a nonstarter. But it exists as a low-grade "well this sucks, but I can't do much about it" fact of existence, like hangnails or tax audits. Then, last year, I bought a motorcycle in lieu of us getting a second car, and I found that EVEN WITH the hassles of weather and limited cargo, and EVEN WITH factoring in the need to wear protective gear, the dead solid CERTAINTY that I can park in seconds without being far from my destination makes the bike my preference 80% of the time. Only 100F or driving rain will make me PICK the car if the logistics of the trip don't demand it for other reasons. The agility, ease of parking, and absurd fuel economy are all huge wins, plus it's always more fun that driving.
- abdullahkhalids 3y ago
  The problem with bikes is that you are subjecting yourself to a 6x higher deathrate. Thanks partially to the cars next to you on the road.
  - ubermonkey 3y ago
    It's definitely more dangerous, but so is bicycling on those roads, which I do far more frequently. It's worth noting, too, that motorcycle casualty rates are somewhat distorted by the 19-year-old dumbass factor. Anybody with money can get a moto license and buy a used liter bike with WAY WAY WAY more power than anyone should realistically have on public roads. An astonishing number of motorcycle fatalities and injuries are solo accidents due to misadventure. I'm old. I did all my stupid stuff already, and have a healthy respect for being effectively naked in traffic (ie, from cycling). It's still more dangerous than being in a car, but the overall stats mislead about HOW much more dangerous.
xyzelement 3y ago
Parking is impactful but is ultimately shaped by human preferences that are revealed by the choices people make. For example, you can live in NYC car-free, but many (most?) people move out to the burbs once they have a family, partially because lower density + car enables better family life. What works well for a single-and-dating young professional, doesn't work as well for a dad. If ample parking makes family life easier, that is probably a pretty good tradeoff.
- sime2009 3y ago
  How many other options are available to people in between the suburbs and NYC style high density cities?
- digging 3y ago
  > Parking is impactful but is ultimately shaped by human preferences that are revealed by the choices people make. This is completely untrue. It is shaped by the profit-seeking behaviors of car manufacturers. In general, when you think a phenomenon is due to "the choices people make" (especially in the US), it probably is not.
  - jjav 3y ago
    > > Parking is impactful but is ultimately shaped by human preferences that are revealed by the choices people make. > This is completely untrue. It is shaped by the profit-seeking behaviors of car manufacturers. That's a wild claim, how would you substantiate it? It's partially true, of course, manufacturers (or anything) lobby for their self-interest. But your claim is that it is completely untrue that people have preferences that shape what they need. A lot of people much prefer living in a large space with land than squeezed into a high-rise.
    - digging 3y ago
      > A lot of people much prefer living in a large space with land than squeezed into a high-rise. But it doesn't really matter what they want, because their cities have already decided that those large lots are the only thing legally available to them on the vast majority of land and that commercial building can't be built nearby enough to walk to for the most part. There is also definitely a non-zero amount of people who only prefer that style of living because they've never experienced any other kind. Finally, I will point out that "a large space" vs "squeezed into a high rise" is a false dichotomy for two reasons. #1 is that apartments can be large, and standalone houses or duplexes can be small. #2 is that high rises and SFHs aren't the only kinds of homes that are possible. the fact that such an argument is so often made is evidence of how effective the propaganda has been, that most Americans don't even know there are other options they could actually have. (Apologies if you're not American, that's definitely an assumption because this is such a common opinion here)
glonq 3y ago
I spent the first decade of my career in that industry, working on the hardware and software inside parking meters. It gave me invaluable exposure to embedded devices, RTOS, electronics, mechanical design, UX, and wired/wireless networking. Everybody else I graduated with in college took tame gov't and enterprise jobs, which would have bored me to tears.
nonsensezzz 3y ago
I haven't had a car since 2015 and I don't plan on getting one. It's a waste of money, time and energy. If a country as big as china can have a solid train network. Why can't we? What does our biggest competitor do that we can't do?
glonq 3y ago
A few of my memories from working in the parking biz: 1. We were bidding smart parking meters to a city in California who insisted that, per the ADA, they should be accessible to the blind. We suggested to them that blind folks tend to not park or drive cars very often. 2. Seeing damage photos from a customer's parking meter where somebody had inserted dynamite up the coin/ticket return tray. The explosion buckled the body of the machine, but incredibly the reinforcement and the lock held. The [paper] money inside got destroyed, though. 3. The angry customer reaction when a co-worker's "Get bent, loser" dummy/debug message accidentally found its way into production. 4. Having to certify the accuracy of a parking meter's onboard clock because it printed a boat launch ticket that was used as evidence in the case of a guy who killed his pregnant wife and dumped her in the SF Bay.
unsignedint 3y ago
Ah, parking... It's a topic that resonates with me deeply. I must admit, I've declined some get-togethers simply because I knew parking would be a challenge. There's nothing more disheartening than realizing the only option is to find street parking in an unfamiliar neighborhood, and the added stress of searching for a spot, especially parallel parking, just adds to the frustration. This stress often reaches a point where the first thing I do when heading to a new place is to conduct a thorough Google Maps search, examining the aerial view and Street View to identify available parking options. Of course, if public transportation is a viable alternative, I try to opt for that, but unfortunately, it's not always efficient and can significantly increase travel time.
wizofaus 3y ago
> parking is perhaps the greatest determinant of whether people decide to make a trip in a car or by some other means Surely that can't be true in general - I would think the quality/convenience/cost of the alternative would be by far the biggest factor (but yes, you could argue that's rolling multiple factors into one). But as an example, plenty of offices I've worked at over the years have offered free or cheap parking to all staff, with sufficient space for virtually everyone, yet less than half of the staff chose to drive simply because getting there by car was slower/more expensive than the alternatives (typically train or tram, and a few, like myself, that much prefer our pushbikes!). Actually at my current job in a CBD/downtown building, nobody drives despite the high availability of parking, but it is quite expensive to use (~$18 a day I believe).
- whateverman23 3y ago
  > I would think the quality/convenience/cost of the alternative would be by far the biggest factor The alternatives almost never beat a car in quality, convenience, and cost (minus parking costs, which is the point). The exceptions are very specific cases, like inter-Manhattan travel at certain times of the day, for example, where $2.75 can get you most places faster than your own car and cheaper than a cab.
  - kaashif 3y ago
    It's not just inter Manhattan travel, getting anywhere on an express line is surely faster than a car a lot of the time. I can't read a book or completely zone out while driving my car either, there must be some value to being able to do that on a train.
  - wizofaus 3y ago
    I suppose what I meant is if the quality/convenience/cost of the alternatives are good enough, many people will choose not to use a car, e.g. to avoid the stress of peak-hour traffic or because they believe it's a more productive use of time (even if it technically takes longer door-to-door), or better for the environment or whatever. And there can be real $ savings if this choice means a household then only needs 1 vs 2 cars.
jasinjames 3y ago
>> he was saying that his house never used to flood and he was blaming it on an enormous parking lot that had been constructed and the displacement of water falling on that parking lot, and how that was contributing to the stormwater issue in his neighborhood. The hardest day’s work I ever did was soil percolation testing as a summer CivE intern. Some municipalities have a rule for new development where any rain that is expected to fall on a property must be absorbed by the property, so a percolation test (“perc test”) gives you a number you can use to figure out how much of your landscape you need to keep undeveloped in order to absorb the needed rainfall. In the municipality I was in, a test involved digging a cylinder hole roughly a foot in diameter and a few feet deep, then periodically dumping in a painters bucket of water. You’d then record how many inches of the dumped water was absorbed every ten minutes or so over the course of the next few hours. It’s not the most scientific test: the tests don’t normalize for recent rainfall, for one, but it’s part of the rules. For the property we were testing (summer camp), me and two other people dug twelve holes throughout the property and staggered our water pours so we could walk in a loop and continuously take measurements. The kicker was that there were only two water spouts on the property to fill the buckets, so the whole day consisted of lugging water buckets up and down hills in the mosquitos and humidity so we could finish the tests. More broadly, though, an interesting consequence of water runoff rules is that it shapes how you design a home. Since too much house meant the remaining grass isn’t considered sufficient drainage, architects are disincentivized from having any roof overhang: since the covered roof area on small lots is constrained anyway, you make more money if you put house under all of it! This is also a reason you’ll see houses with gravel driveways: gravel driveways are good for water percolation. >> When somebody decides they want to open a new restaurant or open a new building, instead of saying it needs X number of spaces, we could say, let’s look at the parking stock and find accommodations that are already there. Office parking could be used at night for residential parking. That dentist’s office parking lot could become the parking lot for a restaurant. If I recall correctly, the town I was working in had some limited version of this. There could be sharing between businesses whose operating hours differed considerably, but these rules were piecemeal and didn’t help a whole lot in normal situations like when several similar businesses are nearby (i.e. restaurants). In the municipality I was working in, there was a table in the regulations mapping the business type (restaurant, medical, retail, etc.) to the number of parking spaces required per unit area (not per expected occupants). You actually need *more* parking per area for a bar than you do for a restaurant, because it’s standing room. >>The first is that many jurisdictions in this country have parking requirements for new housing. That places a geometric and financial constraint on the types of things that can be built” These requirements aren’t just things like “you need space for two cars for this house”, but also things like “the corner between the driveway and the street must be rounded by at least a radius R”, which when combined with all of the other geometric rules about the house footprint, setbacks (distance to the edge of property you can’t build in, which themselves sometimes vary depending on what edge of the property is on a street) etc, it becomes a bit of a jigsaw puzzle. I don’t want to keep rambling too much but I think what I’m trying to communicate is that whenever you see a parking lot or building which looks like it made with some horrible, obvious design flaws, the engineer who designed it was fully aware of there being a better alternative. By the time you apply all the federal, state, and local rules, the number of knobs an engineer can actually tune for parking or building layout are surprisingly limited. Whether you think this is a good or bad thing is up to you.
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mdrzn 3y ago
Relevant 1 day old Climate Town's video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUNXFHpUhu8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUNXFHpUhu8 "Parking Laws Are Strangling America"

266 points by vwoolf 3y ago

indigosparkle6 3y ago

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pink1321 3y ago

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pink1321 3y ago

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anideazzz 3y ago

You could mandate underground parking lots for every new structure. Then liberate access to that parking via an app so that not only the above the parking lot folks take advantage of it.

julesontour45 3y ago

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itronitron 3y ago

us should probably be capitalized in the title, (i.e. US)

tekla 3y ago
Well, its not capitalized in the article title, nor does capitalizing it make sense in context, and the original title makes sense just fine. So no?
jwestbury 3y ago
Also Canada, the UK, many parts of Europe... Car-centricity may be worse in the US, but it's not unique to the US.
pc86 3y ago
It's the word "us," not an abbreviation.
- hfkwer 3y ago
  I imagine that itronitron's point is that the issue of parking as presented in the article is a typically American feature. Many other countries deal with it differently.

TeeWEE 3y ago

Come to the Netherlands. Sell your car. Buy a bike. A car is not really a status symbol here. Its more like a liability.

pc86 3y ago
For what percentage of people in rural or suburban America do you think "move to the Netherlands" is a realistic suggestion?
- MezzoDelCammin 3y ago
  Just out of curiosity - how big of an issue is parking in rural US?
  - tekla 3y ago
    It's an issue when it takes 10m to walk to the Walmart entrance from the parking lot. (This is intended as humor)
    - MezzoDelCammin 3y ago
      Yeah, it's kind of a pity that once the cars vs bikes debate comes up, irony is often really not obvious. The best take on this topic so far I've seen has been from "Not Just Cars": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nZh7A7qTPo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nZh7A7qTPo
    - acchow 3y ago
      Sadly, sometimes in the US it takes just as long to walk within the parking lot as the equivalent total travel time would have been in a walkable European or Asian city
  - sleepybrett 3y ago
    In terms of 'will I have space to park my vehicle pretty much anywhere', little to none. In terms of, 'we could make way better use of all this land that's given over to parking' tons.

falcolas 3y ago

I think you need to go one level deeper: People needing to move non-trivial distances for periodic tasks shapes everything. Cars, and thus car parking, come about because of this need. Even before cars existed, roads and parking (such as hitching posts and stables) still existed because people needed to move. And even bicycles (electric or not) need parking too. There are startups dedicated to creating automated bike parking garages to limit theft.

ttymck 3y ago
Why do I need to go to the mall? Because there is no retail zoning closer to my home.
- kelseyfrog 3y ago
  Yep, cars facilitate cities of unsustainably low density. Reducing car use results in either migration to restore the density equilibrium, transit, or in situ densification. Pick at least one.
- balfirevic 3y ago
  My city has plenty of all kinds of shops where people live, but they (and I) still go to malls because shops there are larger and better equipped, there are more of them and you can walk between them at nice temperature and protected from the rain.
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    Yes, small shops in neighborhoods will never be able to match the price to utility ratio of large shopping complexes with businesses like Costco, Target, Walmart, Best Buy, Ikea, Home Depot, Apple, Kroger, etc. As long as one has access to a personal car, and those above big businesses are available within 30min, even 45min, it is basically impossible for a smaller, local retailer to compete. And now you have the internet and delivery to your door to compete with too.
  - ttymck 3y ago
    Glad to hear it. Sounds like you have an excellent balance of options available to you. It seems like a not insignificant amount of malls aren't sustaining themselves, so I wonder if the balance you described is a world where malls can thrive.

kelseyfrog 3y ago

What else can be done? Universal lot sharing agreements, shared parking, and annulling reserved parking stipulations. Especially the later is a structural factor in the oversupply of parking. It's the parking equivalent of circuit-switching networks - which naturally results in the oversupply of circuits. Mutatis mutandis for all things parking. If one is to admit that these played a role in the oversupply of parking, then it's imperative to annul them to make progress towards right-sizing parking supply.

josephcsible 3y ago
What is this "oversupply of parking" you speak of? In every city I've ever been to, parking was very scarce and expensive.
- kelseyfrog 3y ago
  The one refered to in the article. What were your thoughts on how they defined it?
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- tekla 3y ago
  Well if you read the article, there are multiples more of parking than cars. And yes, parking is scare in cities, because cities use the space for more efficient purposes.
revscat 3y ago
> What else can be done? Reduce the regulatory regimes that force cars on business owners and individuals: eliminate street level parking requirements for property owners, create car-free zones in city centers, declare war on Saudi Arabia, prioritize foot traffic in new commercial development, set minimums for bike/pedestrian friendly mileage, decrease the number of single family residences and increase multi-family domiciles. There's a lot.

mikrl 3y ago

I visited metro Detroit for the first time on Saturday and the parking situation was abysmal but this is perhaps understandable in a large city. I thought my small city in Canada was bad! We couldn’t even park downtown since it appears you need to book it in advance and the trip was somewhat spontaneous. I just ended up pulling over (by a no stopping sign ha) on a quiet side street and setting the GPS back to Windsor.

jakemoshenko 3y ago
Detroit, as the capital of the auto industry, has far more parking than just about any other city I've ever been to. There are huge, multi-story garages right on the main thoroughfare downtown. https://bigthink.com/strange-maps/parking-lots-eat-american-cities/ https://bigthink.com/strange-maps/parking-lots-eat-american-... > Detroit was, or is, Motor City. Its center can pull off another automotive-related nickname: Parking Central. Fully one-third of downtown Detroit is dedicated to letting cars do what they’re not designed for: standing still.
- mikrl 3y ago
  That’s what I thought! But all of the five or so garages we tried cost $20-40 flat with no ticket machines or anything, and I wasn’t willing to download/fight with an app to walk around for an hour. Next trip will be more planned for sure. I was impressed with the highways though. Definitely a motorists’ dream to get around the various suburbs.
  - 2023throwawayy 3y ago
    Needing to download an app, and saying "you need to book in advance" are not the same thing. Just because you didn't want to deal with it and didn't do research ahead of time doesn't mean "We couldn’t even park downtown". You didn't want to, and that's fine.
    - mikrl 3y ago
      You’re splitting hairs, which I can also do: There’s a giant parking lot with 10,000 spaces and 2 are free. There is ‘no parking’ unless you want to drive around for 2 hours. For enough money you could probably get a permit from the cops and a security detail and park wherever you wanted, like in a city park. There is still ‘no parking’ in parks. Within parameters that apply in the majority of cities I’ve tried to park in, there was no parking. In future I’ll download the app, book a spot and bring my phone charger and then I’ll be able to access the parking.

xnx 3y ago

Seems like parking is a side effect for people's preference for larger houses and yards. Convince people to live in smaller houses and share walls with their neighbors, and the parking situation would change dramatically.

josephcsible 3y ago
> live in smaller houses and share walls with their neighbors Doing either of those things makes your standard of living worse.
- f1yght 3y ago
  That's your opinion, sharing a wall but being able to walk or bike easily to everything I need it a huge boost to my quality of life.
  - 2023throwawayy 3y ago
    If you get lucky and get quiet and/or friendly neighbors, sure.
    - closeparen 3y ago
      Sound isolation is part of the price/quality tradeoff. Urban housing is just so scarce relative to demand that almost no one can afford quality.
- pivo 3y ago
  So does having to drive to work, sit in traffic, pay for and maintain the car (or more likely in the US, cars.) I live in a city, share walls, and am less than a 10 minute walk from my office. My coworkers come in early and leave work late to avoid traffic. I'm home before they can get their car out of the parking garage and I can easily go home for lunch. I think my standard of living is therefore higher than someone who must drive to work.
- xnx 3y ago

damnesian 3y ago

>You could imagine a world in which streets were pedestrianized and where we planted trees and gardens and in what is currently space reserved for parking, and closed streets, outside schools, so kids can have places to play. I would love to see a LOT more of this in urban centers. I live in a college town that is about the same size as Iowa City. Iowa City has taken the step of closing off their downtown and making it mostly pedestrian space. It's incredibly nice to explore the area on foot. Our city has considered the same idea but pedestrianizing our downtown has been so controversial when it has been discussed, it hasn't come up for over a decade- mayors are scared to death to touch it. Part of the reason is poor past civic planning would make it very expensive to correct. The main conduit through the downtown business district is also the major East-West artery of town, making the street one of those dreaded "stroads-" a street in the sense that there is heavy commercial and residential presence, resulting in a LOT of local foot traffic and stops all day long; mixed with traffic that just wants to get through downtown to somewhere else. So half of the traffic is looking for parking and the other half is running red lights to get somewhere else as fast as possible. There have been, predictably, many incidents involving cars, pedestrians and bicycles. But not one inch moved on what's become the 800lb gorilla. I don't think a solution is even possible.

Mountain_Skies 3y ago
A college town's context is very different than that of the central business district and inner city of a large metropolitan area. Context doesn't just matter, it's one of, if not the most, important aspects to consider when selecting a development pattern. You can't turn downtown St. Lous into downtown Iowa City or even 'downtown' Seoul, South Korea. Dreamers hate this reality and will contort their assertions every which way they can to avoid admitting any of this.
- throwbadubadu 3y ago
  But those contexts and also such "contexts transformations" exist, so why possible at some places and unthinkable at others? Just saying "dreamer hits reality hard" is a bit destructive, arrogant, and apparently not the complete necessary truth?

UtopiaPunk 3y ago

There's an interesting interview with a designer of SimCity, where he discusses parking: Geoff Manaugh: While you were making those measurements of different real-world cities, did you discover any surprising patterns or spatial relationships Librande: Yes, definitely. I think the biggest one was the parking lots. When I started measuring out our local grocery store, which I don’t think of as being that big, I was blown away by how much more space was parking lot rather than actual store. That was kind of a problem, because we were originally just going to model real cities, but we quickly realized there were way too many parking lots in the real world and that our game was going to be really boring if it was proportional in terms of parking lots. Manaugh: You would be making SimParkingLot, rather than SimCity. Librande: [laughs] Exactly. So what we do in the game is that we just imagine they are underground. We do have parking lots in the game, and we do try to scale them—so, if you have a little grocery store, we’ll put six or seven parking spots on the side, and, if you have a big convention center or a big pro stadium, they’ll have what seem like really big lots—but they’re nowhere near what a real grocery store or pro stadium would have. We had to do the best we could do and still make the game look attractive. Source: https://bldgblog.com/2013/05/sim-city-an-interview-with-stone-librande/ https://bldgblog.com/2013/05/sim-city-an-interview-with-ston...

Mountain_Skies 3y ago
It's a pity that they didn't bake in the option to turn on realistic parking lots and road sizes for the required capacity. It does have traffic jams and more roads can help, especially since the player can control induced demand far more than in reality, but allowing the player to switch between both what's a fun game and what's a realistic simulation could have gone a long way to inform a good chunk of the population on the tradeoffs and impacts of parking and other infrastructure dedicated to automobiles.
- sleepybrett 3y ago
  I haven't looked at 'cities: skylines' or if there is a sequel... recently. I'm wondering if they finally did start modeling parking. I think 'realistic parking' should probably be an option, like you said some people want the 'classic' sim-city experience and modeling. I'd hate to drive those people away from the 'cities' series, as it just seems to be sim-city without the EA enshittification. I think it could be really interesting to allow users to try to build less car focused cities within the game. To simulate concepts like Barcelona's 'superblocks', to plan bikelanes or golfcart-focused communities like 'the villages'. Generally the devs of 'cities' seem like they are interested in many concepts (there are sooooo many dlc for skylines) .. hopefully this one bubbles up.

elijaht 3y ago

I live car-free in NYC. A large appeal of NYC to me was not having to park. I don't ~mind~ driving, but I absolutely hated having to deal with finding parking when I lived in other cities. Parking generally makes me feel stressed (competition for free spots), or makes me pay (using something like SpotHero makes it easy to find a spot, but costs me). It's not even just major cities either- I'm frequently in a college town in Illinois and parking downtown is a nightmare, and can easily add 10 minutes to your trip time, AND it's paid. Visiting a city I'm not familiar with can add some stress too as you don't know the best parking, unlike cities you are familiar with. NYC has problems of it's own (trains are generally reliable, but tend to have delays right when you need them), but for $33 a week I can get to most major neighborhoods in 30 minutes, walking straight to my destination. Add in $40 for a couple cabs when I prioritize a quicker trip, and I have amazing access to my city for less than $100/week.

7speter 3y ago
> but for $33 a week I can get to most major neighborhoods in 30 minutes Ahh yes, only the most important, noteworthy neighborhoods that most likely aren’t transit deserts, right?
- AndyKluger 3y ago
  https://subwaysheds.com/ https://subwaysheds.com/
- elijaht 3y ago
  Some neighborhoods are harder than others, but I have found the subway + bus service + regional rail makes it possible to get ~anywhere~ in an hour from where I live. And those neighborhoods are the exception for me, at least, 99% of my trips really are under 30 minutes. Driving to those places would be 30+ minutes anyways, some of it really is just distance + gridlock
nradov 3y ago
I travel around the USA a fair amount. In the vast majority of cities, parking just isn't a problem. I drive my car where I want to go and park. Sometimes I have to pay. But the places where no parking is available are very rare. I am fully in favor of walkable neighborhoods and reducing the need to drive. But lack of parking is just not a stressor that most Americans worry about.

francisofascii 3y ago

> catastrophically mismanaged the way we provide parking in this country > it’s not properly priced It is was interesting how complex the parking situation can be. So many factors come into play when planning a trip to raise my anxiety levels. Factors include: likelihood of availability given your timing, safely of vehicle, price (anywhere from free to $60 a day), time limits, proximity to desired location. I think I would like some sort of reservation system, but I am sure that would come with other unforeseen issues, like rick people reserving everything at all times.

johnea 3y ago

"Why does parking make us so crazy?" I wonder who he means by "us"? I guess, in this modern world, making "us" crazy doesn't require going very far...

Avlin67 3y ago

same as dark matter

squidgyhead 3y ago

ClimateTown has a video about this today! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUNXFHpUhu8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUNXFHpUhu8

cmcconomy 3y ago
came here to post this :)
willio58 3y ago
ClimateTown, along with Not Just Bikes, City Beautiful, City Nerd, and the like give me hope that the message is getting out. That being said, the more I watch these videos/listen to their podcasts the more I understand that city planners, specifically those in charge of managing traffic and parking, have been taught _incorrectly_ for decades. These content creators regularly say that if we want change we are going to need to go to city council meetings and speak up, but in reality what credentials do I have to talk about this stuff? It's my word as a software dev who consumes content about this against someone who's studied this stuff for years of their life. I don't personally blame the city planners, but I do think that car-centric planning has been engrained into their education fundamentally to the point where plans are made based on factors solely considering number of cars moving through traffic lights for example, vs. number of people crossing an intersection irrespective of mode of transportation.
- wtp1saac 3y ago
  I think the primary difficulty is not telling planners this, but telling citizens. Most people are so ingrained to use cars in the US that any mention of transit or biking gets a pretty severely negative response, and I’ve seen this in people I know across conservatives, liberals, and even (dumbfoundingly) progressives/leftists. To do this well also requires more dense apartments and mixed use zoning, which similarly upsets many across the political spectrum. I am somewhat hopeful the trends are angling towards proper cities, but my impression of those trends is that it is moreso forward thinking cities/planners trying their best against an extremely misinformed citizenry + our existing terrible infrastructure + under/misfunding + impossible bureaucracy. It’s going to take a lot of effort to get people to actually use alternatives, and I think those channels will only appeal to a very small bubble of urbanism focused leftists. (side note: e-bikes are my personal urbanism bet; they seem good enough to vaguely navigate surface roads and even some stroad conditions, while being able to interface with old bike path networks, and can be easy to park in areas where cities provide bike racks. I’ve had a good experience with one, and no longer use a car for most trips)

FlyingSnake 3y ago

I know this is US-by-default site but does parking really shape everything around us (most of the humanity)? What about South America or Africa? From my experience in living in Asia, USA and Europe, it might only be applicable to USA.

AlotOfReading 3y ago
American cities seem to hover around 20-30% land area dedicated to parking in the city cores, according to ParkingReform. Canadian urban planning is largely indistinguishable from American here too. Mexico City is probably similar, with around 40% according to one source [1]. Rio is around 42% of new construction. In all of the cities I checked, it was largest land use category once broken out. Melbourne seems to be better at ~12%, but it's still the third largest land use category despite long-standing efforts to deprioritize cars. If anything, "shapes everything around us" might be understating the reality. [1] https://www.itdp.org/2017/07/26/mexico-city-became-leader-parking-reform/ https://www.itdp.org/2017/07/26/mexico-city-became-leader-pa... [2] https://www.itdp.org/2019/01/31/rio-joins-parking-reform-leaders/ https://www.itdp.org/2019/01/31/rio-joins-parking-reform-lea...

ultra_nick 3y ago

A land value tax would fix this. https://www.thebalancemoney.com/what-is-a-land-value-tax-5205929 https://www.thebalancemoney.com/what-is-a-land-value-tax-520...

staringback 3y ago
The solution to every problem: adding another tax
- enragedcacti 3y ago
  LVT is an alternate scheme for calculating property taxes which already exist in every state in the US.
- drivers99 3y ago
  The stuff I've seen about LVT is that it's supposed to replace all other taxes with it, as opposed to taxing income/work and property (making improvements on the land, making it and nearby land more valuable).
ClassyJacket 3y ago
A drive in cinema I loved going to shut down last week because a land value tax made it impossible to conduct their business there. They were being charged over one thousand dollars per day of tax because in that area, tax is calculated ignoring what's actually on the land. If it was shut down and turned into apartments (which is what's happening now), the tax is spread out across all owners and manageable. But concentrated on one business, it made it impossible to run. Land value tax is anti-business. No thanks.
- myroon5 3y ago
  > tax is calculated ignoring what's actually on the land Isn't that the point? LVT forces land to be valued more so large less productive land use shifts to more productive use

supportengineer 3y ago

We have an abundance of parking and a shortage of housing, it's too bad we don't have a way to quickly setup housing (even temporary) in parking areas. Most parking is already located near other utilities so they would already be close by. To start with, we could require every parking lot over a certain size provide basic amenities like public restrooms with showers and water fountains.

gwbas1c 3y ago
> it's too bad we don't have a way to quickly setup housing (even temporary) in parking areas. RVs. Don't quote me, but I suspect some temporary shelters during disasters are RVs (and go to the exact parking lots you describe.) > We have an abundance of parking and a shortage of housing But I'm not sure that putting RVs in underutilized parking lots will solve the homeless crisis. (Assuming that's what you're referring to.) I generally see a lot of homeless people in very dense cities where parking is at a premium. Maybe "RVs in parking lots as temporary housing" would work for low-wage employees, who sometimes are at risk of becoming homeless due to their low wages?
- axus 3y ago
  I thought RVs had to worry about electricity and sewer hookups for anything over a few days.
  - gwbas1c 3y ago
    From the parent: > Most parking is already located near other utilities so they would already be close by
- simplyluke 3y ago
  > I suspect some temporary shelters during disasters are RVs Yes, they're known as FEMA trailers, and gained some national attention in the late 2000s due to toxic levels of formaldehyde in the ones that were used in the Katrina response. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FEMA_trailer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FEMA_trailer
3y ago

0xbadcafebee 3y ago

It is insane how much actual land is used for ground-floor parking. You could house every homeless person in the USA with like 1/1000th of the available parking space, and park all the moved cars in vertical parking structures. But, geez, that costs money, and political clout, and homeless people don't exactly have a lobbying group.

bugglebeetle 3y ago
It would cost less money than all that is already spent on homelessness combined, but violates the principle that real estate must function first as a wildly profitable speculative asset in expensive urban centers, which is why it’s verboten. You can set billions on fire with BS homelessness programs that both don’t compromise the underlying asset prices and provide myriad opportunities for graft, which is why they’re the favorite form of indirect taxation on real estate put in place by politicians. We already have and spend the money, just in the most corrupt and useless ways imaginable.

gwbas1c 3y ago

I lived for a few years a 5 minute walk from downtown Palo Alto. I still used my car, but significantly less. I can't tell you how wonderful it was to walk, instead of drive, for a random trip to a restaurant. It was even better when going to the bar. I think if we also focused on walkability for residential development, we could cut down on car use. Even though I now live in suburbia, I made sure there were a few places I could walk to before I bought my house.

lippihom 3y ago
Imagine how nice it was during Covid when all of University Avenue was closed off to cars! They've reversed all of that now... such a shame.

GrumpyNl 3y ago

This is a real USA problem.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

ubermonkey 3y ago

My whole life I've struggled with the need for cars in the places I've lived. Very few US cities have the right infrastructure to go car-free, and the places I personally have lived feature such unrelentingly hot summers that going anywhere without AC is pretty much a nonstarter. But it exists as a low-grade "well this sucks, but I can't do much about it" fact of existence, like hangnails or tax audits. Then, last year, I bought a motorcycle in lieu of us getting a second car, and I found that EVEN WITH the hassles of weather and limited cargo, and EVEN WITH factoring in the need to wear protective gear, the dead solid CERTAINTY that I can park in seconds without being far from my destination makes the bike my preference 80% of the time. Only 100F or driving rain will make me PICK the car if the logistics of the trip don't demand it for other reasons. The agility, ease of parking, and absurd fuel economy are all huge wins, plus it's always more fun that driving.

abdullahkhalids 3y ago
The problem with bikes is that you are subjecting yourself to a 6x higher deathrate. Thanks partially to the cars next to you on the road.
- ubermonkey 3y ago
  It's definitely more dangerous, but so is bicycling on those roads, which I do far more frequently. It's worth noting, too, that motorcycle casualty rates are somewhat distorted by the 19-year-old dumbass factor. Anybody with money can get a moto license and buy a used liter bike with WAY WAY WAY more power than anyone should realistically have on public roads. An astonishing number of motorcycle fatalities and injuries are solo accidents due to misadventure. I'm old. I did all my stupid stuff already, and have a healthy respect for being effectively naked in traffic (ie, from cycling). It's still more dangerous than being in a car, but the overall stats mislead about HOW much more dangerous.

xyzelement 3y ago

Parking is impactful but is ultimately shaped by human preferences that are revealed by the choices people make. For example, you can live in NYC car-free, but many (most?) people move out to the burbs once they have a family, partially because lower density + car enables better family life. What works well for a single-and-dating young professional, doesn't work as well for a dad. If ample parking makes family life easier, that is probably a pretty good tradeoff.

sime2009 3y ago
How many other options are available to people in between the suburbs and NYC style high density cities?
digging 3y ago
> Parking is impactful but is ultimately shaped by human preferences that are revealed by the choices people make. This is completely untrue. It is shaped by the profit-seeking behaviors of car manufacturers. In general, when you think a phenomenon is due to "the choices people make" (especially in the US), it probably is not.
- jjav 3y ago
  > > Parking is impactful but is ultimately shaped by human preferences that are revealed by the choices people make. > This is completely untrue. It is shaped by the profit-seeking behaviors of car manufacturers. That's a wild claim, how would you substantiate it? It's partially true, of course, manufacturers (or anything) lobby for their self-interest. But your claim is that it is completely untrue that people have preferences that shape what they need. A lot of people much prefer living in a large space with land than squeezed into a high-rise.
  - digging 3y ago
    > A lot of people much prefer living in a large space with land than squeezed into a high-rise. But it doesn't really matter what they want, because their cities have already decided that those large lots are the only thing legally available to them on the vast majority of land and that commercial building can't be built nearby enough to walk to for the most part. There is also definitely a non-zero amount of people who only prefer that style of living because they've never experienced any other kind. Finally, I will point out that "a large space" vs "squeezed into a high rise" is a false dichotomy for two reasons. #1 is that apartments can be large, and standalone houses or duplexes can be small. #2 is that high rises and SFHs aren't the only kinds of homes that are possible. the fact that such an argument is so often made is evidence of how effective the propaganda has been, that most Americans don't even know there are other options they could actually have. (Apologies if you're not American, that's definitely an assumption because this is such a common opinion here)

glonq 3y ago

I spent the first decade of my career in that industry, working on the hardware and software inside parking meters. It gave me invaluable exposure to embedded devices, RTOS, electronics, mechanical design, UX, and wired/wireless networking. Everybody else I graduated with in college took tame gov't and enterprise jobs, which would have bored me to tears.

nonsensezzz 3y ago

I haven't had a car since 2015 and I don't plan on getting one. It's a waste of money, time and energy. If a country as big as china can have a solid train network. Why can't we? What does our biggest competitor do that we can't do?

glonq 3y ago

A few of my memories from working in the parking biz: 1. We were bidding smart parking meters to a city in California who insisted that, per the ADA, they should be accessible to the blind. We suggested to them that blind folks tend to not park or drive cars very often. 2. Seeing damage photos from a customer's parking meter where somebody had inserted dynamite up the coin/ticket return tray. The explosion buckled the body of the machine, but incredibly the reinforcement and the lock held. The [paper] money inside got destroyed, though. 3. The angry customer reaction when a co-worker's "Get bent, loser" dummy/debug message accidentally found its way into production. 4. Having to certify the accuracy of a parking meter's onboard clock because it printed a boat launch ticket that was used as evidence in the case of a guy who killed his pregnant wife and dumped her in the SF Bay.

unsignedint 3y ago

Ah, parking... It's a topic that resonates with me deeply. I must admit, I've declined some get-togethers simply because I knew parking would be a challenge. There's nothing more disheartening than realizing the only option is to find street parking in an unfamiliar neighborhood, and the added stress of searching for a spot, especially parallel parking, just adds to the frustration. This stress often reaches a point where the first thing I do when heading to a new place is to conduct a thorough Google Maps search, examining the aerial view and Street View to identify available parking options. Of course, if public transportation is a viable alternative, I try to opt for that, but unfortunately, it's not always efficient and can significantly increase travel time.

wizofaus 3y ago

> parking is perhaps the greatest determinant of whether people decide to make a trip in a car or by some other means Surely that can't be true in general - I would think the quality/convenience/cost of the alternative would be by far the biggest factor (but yes, you could argue that's rolling multiple factors into one). But as an example, plenty of offices I've worked at over the years have offered free or cheap parking to all staff, with sufficient space for virtually everyone, yet less than half of the staff chose to drive simply because getting there by car was slower/more expensive than the alternatives (typically train or tram, and a few, like myself, that much prefer our pushbikes!). Actually at my current job in a CBD/downtown building, nobody drives despite the high availability of parking, but it is quite expensive to use (~$18 a day I believe).

whateverman23 3y ago
> I would think the quality/convenience/cost of the alternative would be by far the biggest factor The alternatives almost never beat a car in quality, convenience, and cost (minus parking costs, which is the point). The exceptions are very specific cases, like inter-Manhattan travel at certain times of the day, for example, where $2.75 can get you most places faster than your own car and cheaper than a cab.
- kaashif 3y ago
  It's not just inter Manhattan travel, getting anywhere on an express line is surely faster than a car a lot of the time. I can't read a book or completely zone out while driving my car either, there must be some value to being able to do that on a train.
- wizofaus 3y ago
  I suppose what I meant is if the quality/convenience/cost of the alternatives are good enough, many people will choose not to use a car, e.g. to avoid the stress of peak-hour traffic or because they believe it's a more productive use of time (even if it technically takes longer door-to-door), or better for the environment or whatever. And there can be real $ savings if this choice means a household then only needs 1 vs 2 cars.

jasinjames 3y ago

>> he was saying that his house never used to flood and he was blaming it on an enormous parking lot that had been constructed and the displacement of water falling on that parking lot, and how that was contributing to the stormwater issue in his neighborhood. The hardest day’s work I ever did was soil percolation testing as a summer CivE intern. Some municipalities have a rule for new development where any rain that is expected to fall on a property must be absorbed by the property, so a percolation test (“perc test”) gives you a number you can use to figure out how much of your landscape you need to keep undeveloped in order to absorb the needed rainfall. In the municipality I was in, a test involved digging a cylinder hole roughly a foot in diameter and a few feet deep, then periodically dumping in a painters bucket of water. You’d then record how many inches of the dumped water was absorbed every ten minutes or so over the course of the next few hours. It’s not the most scientific test: the tests don’t normalize for recent rainfall, for one, but it’s part of the rules. For the property we were testing (summer camp), me and two other people dug twelve holes throughout the property and staggered our water pours so we could walk in a loop and continuously take measurements. The kicker was that there were only two water spouts on the property to fill the buckets, so the whole day consisted of lugging water buckets up and down hills in the mosquitos and humidity so we could finish the tests. More broadly, though, an interesting consequence of water runoff rules is that it shapes how you design a home. Since too much house meant the remaining grass isn’t considered sufficient drainage, architects are disincentivized from having any roof overhang: since the covered roof area on small lots is constrained anyway, you make more money if you put house under all of it! This is also a reason you’ll see houses with gravel driveways: gravel driveways are good for water percolation. >> When somebody decides they want to open a new restaurant or open a new building, instead of saying it needs X number of spaces, we could say, let’s look at the parking stock and find accommodations that are already there. Office parking could be used at night for residential parking. That dentist’s office parking lot could become the parking lot for a restaurant. If I recall correctly, the town I was working in had some limited version of this. There could be sharing between businesses whose operating hours differed considerably, but these rules were piecemeal and didn’t help a whole lot in normal situations like when several similar businesses are nearby (i.e. restaurants). In the municipality I was working in, there was a table in the regulations mapping the business type (restaurant, medical, retail, etc.) to the number of parking spaces required per unit area (not per expected occupants). You actually need *more* parking per area for a bar than you do for a restaurant, because it’s standing room. >>The first is that many jurisdictions in this country have parking requirements for new housing. That places a geometric and financial constraint on the types of things that can be built” These requirements aren’t just things like “you need space for two cars for this house”, but also things like “the corner between the driveway and the street must be rounded by at least a radius R”, which when combined with all of the other geometric rules about the house footprint, setbacks (distance to the edge of property you can’t build in, which themselves sometimes vary depending on what edge of the property is on a street) etc, it becomes a bit of a jigsaw puzzle. I don’t want to keep rambling too much but I think what I’m trying to communicate is that whenever you see a parking lot or building which looks like it made with some horrible, obvious design flaws, the engineer who designed it was fully aware of there being a better alternative. By the time you apply all the federal, state, and local rules, the number of knobs an engineer can actually tune for parking or building layout are surprisingly limited. Whether you think this is a good or bad thing is up to you.

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mdrzn 3y ago

Relevant 1 day old Climate Town's video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUNXFHpUhu8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUNXFHpUhu8 "Parking Laws Are Strangling America"