5 ms·

Super Drug

43 points by cs702 3y ago

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
jaybrendansmith 3y ago
What a fantastic idea ... and without numbers to back it up, I believe this is what was effectively done 50-70 years ago through the Higher Education Act of 1965.
- KnobbleMcKnees 3y ago
  This what? Effectively done to what?. I think you missed all the charts too
refulgentis 3y ago
This has a sort of 2010s post-Google pre-self-awareness argumentation stink to it: I'm here, I know how to fix this, I've looked at the #s and have 5 #s to change that will fix it. Someone else will do it, and it's easy, I know.
robocat 3y ago
> Harvard, for example, quadruples the patient’s income. Bullshit. 98% of Harvard students graduate: https://college.harvard.edu/resources/faq/what-harvards-graduation-rate https://college.harvard.edu/resources/faq/what-harvards-grad... Questionable essay if it can’t get basic premises correct. Edit: Selection bias. Rich people go to Harvard. Hardly surprising that Harvard graduates have different outcomes from the general population. For example: The median family income for Harvard undergraduates is $168,800—more than three times the national median, according to a recent study. Edit: Don’t use Harvard as an example of university causing positive outcomes because the group of people that enter Harvard are not representative
- cs702 3y ago
  Your comment makes no sense to me. The OP links to https://www.collegesimply.com/colleges/massachusetts/harvard-university/outcomes/ https://www.collegesimply.com/colleges/massachusetts/harvard... , which states: > 10 years after enrolling, the average income of former Harvard University students who are working and no longer in school is $136,700, which is 299% higher than the national median. Sources, U.S. Department of Education College Scorecard / Department of Treasury. An increase of 299% means multiplying by (1 + 2.99) = 3.99x, which the OP rounds to 4x.
  - anonym29 3y ago
    I dropped out of college and my earnings last year (still in my mid/late 20s, have easily another promo or job hop before 32) are over double the Harvard median, therefore dropping out of school causes you to earn 8x the national median. "Doesn't count" you say? "Confounding variables" you say? "Causation and correlation aren't the same" you say? I'll just have to take your word for it, grad, it's not like I have a college degree after all! P.S. I love rejecting Ivy League grads in interview loops. They've very consistently been the absolute worst performers on LC easies.
    - tr3ntg 3y ago
      Biased much? Lording acceptance/rejection over any candidate seems like a trip But to stay on topic, I generally agree with the consensus of this thread and your comment. The inputs and outputs here probably aren’t linked to the schooling itself.
      - anonym29 3y ago
        I wouldn't say I lord it over anyone. I'm very polite to all candidates and make my decisions strictly based on technical performance. That Ivy League grads tend to bizarrely be reliably poor in this regard (a surprising number fail to actually produce working solutions) simply amuses me - no amount of intergenerational wealth is a substitute for competence. Technical aptitude tests are the great equalizer between the haves and the have-nots. That's not to say I've never given an Ivy League grad a thumbs up in the loop, but their performance tends to subvert popular opinion and expectations of "Ivy League grads" as a group. In case anyone's curious, the group that most reliably aces the challenges I provide are first generation Chinese immigrants. It's basically the norm that they will not only produce working solutions to every problem, but that they complete their solutions quicker than other candidates, and that their solutions are computationally quicker and more efficient than those of other candidates as well. I am not Chinese or an immigrant. I have no loyalty or allegiance to China. I would describe China's political system as apalling. Hypothetically, as a business owner with valuable IP, I'd be weary of first generation Chinese immigrants on espionage grounds. First generation Chinese immigrants might as well be the least likely group for me to offer preferential bias to. That said, I can't argue with results. If you've got the skills, I couldn't care less about the reputation of the place you came from, regardless of whether it's a specific country, specific school, or lack thereof. Also, I'm not given enough of a vested interest in my employer's company to care about whether they suffer IP theft, nor is my job to prevent that, only to judge who among our candidates has the requisite aptitude and who doesn't.
- li_am 3y ago
  Questionable comment if you can't get the basic premise of the article correct.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- robocat 3y ago
  More opinion on why Harvard in particular is a bad example to use: laundering priviledge: https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/why-match-school-and-student-rank https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/why-match-school-and-s...
willcipriano 3y ago
This is sort of like the people who want to print more money to solve poverty while leaving the number of apartments and cheeseburgers the same. Printing more degrees won't create more six figure plus jobs for the holders of those degrees. It isn't the education that Harvard provides that makes students valuable, it's the selection process. Intelligent and well connected people get into Harvard, it you hire a Harvard person they will be either intelligent or well connected, perhaps even both. Get rid of the selection process and admit less intelligent and less well connected people and those people won't achieve the same results.
- istjohn 3y ago
  The selection effect is real, but there is very real value in a university education, too. The author was raised by a single mom and did not have amazing grades in high school. He's watched the door to the middle class that he walked through slowly close over the past 30 years. He's not just talking about Harvard. State schools have become much more selective and expensive, too. The difference between this and printing money is that money is intrinsically worthless, and a university education is valuable for the knowledge and skills it imparts and the social capital it builds. Controversial perhaps on HN, but true.
  - cwillu 3y ago
    “Ask me about my other controversial but true opinions!”
- gist 3y ago
  > It isn't the education that Harvard provides that makes students valuable, it's the selection process. As I am sure others will note there is much more to it than even what you have mentioned. For one thing as a rule and for sure a generality (based on my own personal experience) you are around more high performing people (to be clear not everyone but enough of them) to pull you up as well and be able to learn from them and be in a great environment (while at school and possibly after). (This applies to any 'top' school not just Harvard). Again very generally a top school is going to have overall a better faculty (or teaching assistants). Better facilities. More connections to hiring companies. (Well known, right?) Later after you graduate a degree from a top University is branding and gets you exposure and better opportunities. There is also the very positive branding and halo that one gets from going to a top school. It's part of the reason that even if Kia or Hyundai made a car that was as good as or better than a Porsche 911 it wouldn't matter. In fact there is a saying I heard once something like 'Sophia Loren without a nose is not Sophia Loren'. > Get rid of the selection process and admit less intelligent and less well connected people and those people won't achieve the same results. As mentioned the branding alone is worth it's weight in gold. That said important point is the value as with any branding is driven a great deal by the media and popular culture. (Super important point right off "IVY League" branding goes a long long way).
DaveExeter 3y ago
correlation != causation
mhb 3y ago
10 Notes on the End of Affirmative Action https://colemanhughes.substack.com/p/10-notes-on-the-end-of-affirmative https://colemanhughes.substack.com/p/10-notes-on-the-end-of-...
specialist 3y ago
Cost of education continues to rise, yet (undergrad) enrollment in higher ed leveled off ~2010. Can anyone meta explain what's going on? Are applications down? Is higher ed constraining the supply? Are males being "left behind", like we've been warned (eg more high school drop outs and less college)? Meaning male enrollment is decreasing faster than female enrollment is increasing? Are higher tuitions diverting demand to alternatives, like trades, voc-tech, and online education? Am I just misunderstanding the numbers? "Total fall enrollment in degree-granting postsecondary institutions, by attendance status, sex of student, and control of institution: Selected years, 1947 through 2029" https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d20/tables/dt20_303.10.asp https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d20/tables/dt20_303.10.a... "Characteristics of Postsecondary Students" https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/csb/postsecondary-students https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/csb/postsecondary... "Q: information on postsecondary enrollment trends?" Answer: https://nces.ed.gov/fastFacts/display.asp?id=98 https://nces.ed.gov/fastFacts/display.asp?id=98 -- I am in favor of more education. If supply is constrained, as ProfGalloway claims, then I wholeheartedly support increasing supply. But if demand is down, I'd like to think about possible solutions a little more more. Like free/cheap education (which I also support). Further #1: Future admissions need to look more like a lottery. Futher #2: Separately, but probably relevant somehow, these hedge funds and real estate moguls hiding behind university brands needs to be subjected to repeated radical cashectomies. Maybe like requiring them to prop up other (struggling) institutions (another of ProfGalloway's suggestions). Maybe erect a wall between funds and schools. Maybe a new category of corporation, where the endowments need to be spent (use it or lose it).
gloryless 3y ago
Anyone else notice the animated header image? That's a flex

43 points by cs702 3y ago

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

What a fantastic idea ... and without numbers to back it up, I believe this is what was effectively done 50-70 years ago through the Higher Education Act of 1965.

KnobbleMcKnees 3y ago
This what? Effectively done to what?. I think you missed all the charts too

refulgentis 3y ago

This has a sort of 2010s post-Google pre-self-awareness argumentation stink to it: I'm here, I know how to fix this, I've looked at the #s and have 5 #s to change that will fix it. Someone else will do it, and it's easy, I know.

robocat 3y ago

> Harvard, for example, quadruples the patient’s income. Bullshit. 98% of Harvard students graduate: https://college.harvard.edu/resources/faq/what-harvards-graduation-rate https://college.harvard.edu/resources/faq/what-harvards-grad... Questionable essay if it can’t get basic premises correct. Edit: Selection bias. Rich people go to Harvard. Hardly surprising that Harvard graduates have different outcomes from the general population. For example: The median family income for Harvard undergraduates is $168,800—more than three times the national median, according to a recent study. Edit: Don’t use Harvard as an example of university causing positive outcomes because the group of people that enter Harvard are not representative

cs702 3y ago
Your comment makes no sense to me. The OP links to https://www.collegesimply.com/colleges/massachusetts/harvard-university/outcomes/ https://www.collegesimply.com/colleges/massachusetts/harvard... , which states: > 10 years after enrolling, the average income of former Harvard University students who are working and no longer in school is $136,700, which is 299% higher than the national median. Sources, U.S. Department of Education College Scorecard / Department of Treasury. An increase of 299% means multiplying by (1 + 2.99) = 3.99x, which the OP rounds to 4x.
- anonym29 3y ago
  I dropped out of college and my earnings last year (still in my mid/late 20s, have easily another promo or job hop before 32) are over double the Harvard median, therefore dropping out of school causes you to earn 8x the national median. "Doesn't count" you say? "Confounding variables" you say? "Causation and correlation aren't the same" you say? I'll just have to take your word for it, grad, it's not like I have a college degree after all! P.S. I love rejecting Ivy League grads in interview loops. They've very consistently been the absolute worst performers on LC easies.
  - tr3ntg 3y ago
    Biased much? Lording acceptance/rejection over any candidate seems like a trip But to stay on topic, I generally agree with the consensus of this thread and your comment. The inputs and outputs here probably aren’t linked to the schooling itself.
    - anonym29 3y ago
      I wouldn't say I lord it over anyone. I'm very polite to all candidates and make my decisions strictly based on technical performance. That Ivy League grads tend to bizarrely be reliably poor in this regard (a surprising number fail to actually produce working solutions) simply amuses me - no amount of intergenerational wealth is a substitute for competence. Technical aptitude tests are the great equalizer between the haves and the have-nots. That's not to say I've never given an Ivy League grad a thumbs up in the loop, but their performance tends to subvert popular opinion and expectations of "Ivy League grads" as a group. In case anyone's curious, the group that most reliably aces the challenges I provide are first generation Chinese immigrants. It's basically the norm that they will not only produce working solutions to every problem, but that they complete their solutions quicker than other candidates, and that their solutions are computationally quicker and more efficient than those of other candidates as well. I am not Chinese or an immigrant. I have no loyalty or allegiance to China. I would describe China's political system as apalling. Hypothetically, as a business owner with valuable IP, I'd be weary of first generation Chinese immigrants on espionage grounds. First generation Chinese immigrants might as well be the least likely group for me to offer preferential bias to. That said, I can't argue with results. If you've got the skills, I couldn't care less about the reputation of the place you came from, regardless of whether it's a specific country, specific school, or lack thereof. Also, I'm not given enough of a vested interest in my employer's company to care about whether they suffer IP theft, nor is my job to prevent that, only to judge who among our candidates has the requisite aptitude and who doesn't.
li_am 3y ago
Questionable comment if you can't get the basic premise of the article correct.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
robocat 3y ago
More opinion on why Harvard in particular is a bad example to use: laundering priviledge: https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/why-match-school-and-student-rank https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/why-match-school-and-s...

willcipriano 3y ago

This is sort of like the people who want to print more money to solve poverty while leaving the number of apartments and cheeseburgers the same. Printing more degrees won't create more six figure plus jobs for the holders of those degrees. It isn't the education that Harvard provides that makes students valuable, it's the selection process. Intelligent and well connected people get into Harvard, it you hire a Harvard person they will be either intelligent or well connected, perhaps even both. Get rid of the selection process and admit less intelligent and less well connected people and those people won't achieve the same results.

istjohn 3y ago
The selection effect is real, but there is very real value in a university education, too. The author was raised by a single mom and did not have amazing grades in high school. He's watched the door to the middle class that he walked through slowly close over the past 30 years. He's not just talking about Harvard. State schools have become much more selective and expensive, too. The difference between this and printing money is that money is intrinsically worthless, and a university education is valuable for the knowledge and skills it imparts and the social capital it builds. Controversial perhaps on HN, but true.
- cwillu 3y ago
  “Ask me about my other controversial but true opinions!”
gist 3y ago
> It isn't the education that Harvard provides that makes students valuable, it's the selection process. As I am sure others will note there is much more to it than even what you have mentioned. For one thing as a rule and for sure a generality (based on my own personal experience) you are around more high performing people (to be clear not everyone but enough of them) to pull you up as well and be able to learn from them and be in a great environment (while at school and possibly after). (This applies to any 'top' school not just Harvard). Again very generally a top school is going to have overall a better faculty (or teaching assistants). Better facilities. More connections to hiring companies. (Well known, right?) Later after you graduate a degree from a top University is branding and gets you exposure and better opportunities. There is also the very positive branding and halo that one gets from going to a top school. It's part of the reason that even if Kia or Hyundai made a car that was as good as or better than a Porsche 911 it wouldn't matter. In fact there is a saying I heard once something like 'Sophia Loren without a nose is not Sophia Loren'. > Get rid of the selection process and admit less intelligent and less well connected people and those people won't achieve the same results. As mentioned the branding alone is worth it's weight in gold. That said important point is the value as with any branding is driven a great deal by the media and popular culture. (Super important point right off "IVY League" branding goes a long long way).

DaveExeter 3y ago

correlation != causation

mhb 3y ago

10 Notes on the End of Affirmative Action https://colemanhughes.substack.com/p/10-notes-on-the-end-of-affirmative https://colemanhughes.substack.com/p/10-notes-on-the-end-of-...

specialist 3y ago

Cost of education continues to rise, yet (undergrad) enrollment in higher ed leveled off ~2010. Can anyone meta explain what's going on? Are applications down? Is higher ed constraining the supply? Are males being "left behind", like we've been warned (eg more high school drop outs and less college)? Meaning male enrollment is decreasing faster than female enrollment is increasing? Are higher tuitions diverting demand to alternatives, like trades, voc-tech, and online education? Am I just misunderstanding the numbers? "Total fall enrollment in degree-granting postsecondary institutions, by attendance status, sex of student, and control of institution: Selected years, 1947 through 2029" https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d20/tables/dt20_303.10.asp https://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d20/tables/dt20_303.10.a... "Characteristics of Postsecondary Students" https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/csb/postsecondary-students https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/csb/postsecondary... "Q: information on postsecondary enrollment trends?" Answer: https://nces.ed.gov/fastFacts/display.asp?id=98 https://nces.ed.gov/fastFacts/display.asp?id=98 -- I am in favor of more education. If supply is constrained, as ProfGalloway claims, then I wholeheartedly support increasing supply. But if demand is down, I'd like to think about possible solutions a little more more. Like free/cheap education (which I also support). Further #1: Future admissions need to look more like a lottery. Futher #2: Separately, but probably relevant somehow, these hedge funds and real estate moguls hiding behind university brands needs to be subjected to repeated radical cashectomies. Maybe like requiring them to prop up other (struggling) institutions (another of ProfGalloway's suggestions). Maybe erect a wall between funds and schools. Maybe a new category of corporation, where the endowments need to be spent (use it or lose it).

gloryless 3y ago

Anyone else notice the animated header image? That's a flex