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I think the only reason I was able to get through my PhD was because I am used to the work culture and expectations. After going into the industry in a relative

I think the only reason I was able to get through my PhD was because I am used to the work culture and expectations. After going into the industry in a relatively healthy and good company, I realized just how much stress I had and how bad it was in academia. In a way, the grinder serves as a test of willpower and discipline and those who could persevere through it can say they have the mental fortitude to handle stress and still achieve results despite adverse circumstances. Whenever I am kinda stressed out, I recall my time in school and it gives me something similar to "I have been through worse, I can make this work". On the other hand, I tell everyone who bothers to ask that no, a PhD is not worth it. Get a master and go to work. Or better, get a BS and make the company sponsor that master degree. That PhD will drain both your life and energy and once you got it, you will still need to compete against people of your level. Nothing changes except a permanent mental scar.

leaveitalone 3y ago
As a solid B student denied access to a PhD, folks that get PhDs for business reasons really bug me. Especially if they then go on to complain that it was hard. You don't realise how much some of us want to do research but can't get into academia because other, smarter people take the spots for prestige or money. Like, go away and just work on wall street if you're not interested in doing actual science.
- maxmalkav 3y ago
  The main complain in my environment (composed by both doctors and dropouts) is not about "it being hard" but "it being disappointing", specially when you are interested in doing actual science but you find that will be a small part of the process and many times not as rewarding as expected. You add department politics, personal differences with supervisors or the whole publishing business to the mix and it can get really ugly really fast.
  - leaveitalone 3y ago
    Yeah, but I do wonder how much of the reason you're experiencing that is because a lot of the people who make it miserable are there for the wrong reasons?
- vector_spaces 3y ago
  I'm sorry that you were denied access, gatekeeping is real, especially in STEM fields. I just want to offer that not everyone doing a PhD is doing so for reasons of money or prestige, and not all of them are coming from money or prestige. And the gatekeeping doesn't end once you get in, either. If anything it intensifies the further along you get, and by orders of magnitude the more your circumstances don't parse to something like {age = <30, marital_status = single, kids = false, parental_income = upper_class | middle_class, parental_support = true, needs_to_work_to_survive = false, parent_has_bachelors = true}
  - leaveitalone 3y ago
    I'm not sure it was gate keeping, I think there just weren't enough spots and my grades weren't as good as my competitors. Just wish the ones who didn't want to do it didn't bother so that more spots for us lesser graded people could have got in.
    - lumiukko 3y ago
      But even the grades are highly contextual. I am unfamiliar with how much they vary across the US, but usually grades depend a lot on the university itself and the professors teaching or grading the courses. The prestige of the university may be taken into account as well. Perhaps it wasn't possible to go to a "better" university, due to financial or simply personal reasons. Diversity is a really important aspect in building PhD cohorts and research teams - only choosing the best candidates based on grades introduces a bad bias that may even exacerbate the situation.
- ray__ 3y ago
  Not criticizing your take, just curious–grades and GPA have never been a primary factor for any of the PhD admissions committees that I've been on or exposed to. Usually other factors like research experience, letters of rec, and other personal experiences easily outweigh grades, especially if they're just Bs (very low grades would be an issue). Where are your B grades affecting your grad school applications?
  - leaveitalone 3y ago
    It was 20 years ago now, and you couldn't get into grad school with less than an A average. This was in Ontario, Canada.
    - clipsy 3y ago
      > you couldn't get into grad school with less than an A average Then no one "took your spot."
      - leaveitalone 3y ago
        Hi clipsy, it wasn't a cut off, it was just that there were enough people with higher grades taking the spots. If some of those people didn't want to be there and didn't take the spots that they earned, I'm sure they'd have reduced the entry requirements. Best of luck in your future endeavours.
        clipsy 3y ago
        Apologies for my misinterpretation; I can't honestly say I agree with your overall point of view but my objection was misguided.
- pokerface_86 3y ago
  [dead]
georgeburdell 3y ago
For me, the biggest drawback was doing all of the life things later. I graduated at 27, which is on the earlier end, then met my partner a year later, got married 2 years after that, bought a house 2 years after that, and then 2 years after that finally felt settled enough to have our first child (second was born 3 years later). Money was usually gating each step. We’re going to be pushing 70 before our children have children, if they take the same path.
- TotalCrackpot 3y ago
  Do you have a mortgage on the house or is it actually yours?
  - lumost 3y ago
    Buying a house without a mortgage is something available to a privileged few. Even if the option is available, it’s arguably unwise until you have to prioritize cash flow in your retirement.
- lumiukko 3y ago
  Are you aware of how privileged you are?
  - tomrod 3y ago
    When discussing with someone, proper manners enlightens a discussant to avoid painting them into a proverbial corner, since such is a negative interaction. From what I read, the person worked their tush off to get through a graduate program, then pushed for more money in a career. What aspect of this do you find privileging? Working their tush off? Pushing for opportunities? A small set of comments online tells one nothing about the background of a person, unless one actively looks for dog whistles and shibboleths.
    - lumiukko 3y ago
      It appeared they rant about how "doing all the things in life later" was the biggest drawback and continues to contradict the point by providing a timeline that places them at 33yo with all of the listed life goals achieved, starting with a graduation (I assume by the context, with a PhD, at 27). Some of such life goals are not even achievable for some. It sounds like a simple attempt to humble-brag. Assuming that they worked their tush off or pushed for opportunities also sounds coming from some privileged background, as it seems to assume that hard work and proper initiative would be sufficient in achieving such things, while for some people the first guard is already getting the necessary elementary education, while being in a stable and safe environment.
bshep 3y ago
So i did a masters in engineering(3yrs), worked for 2 years then went into med school (4yrs) and finished residency (3yrs) in the same time a friend of mine did a PHD in engineering… I was shocked when i found out he had just finished the PHD when i was graduating residency.
- make3 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - AlexSW 3y ago
    Presumably that the opportunity cost can be rather high.
- dfit99 3y ago
  Just curious, what inspired you to pursue medicine. I have been a SDE at a FAANG with 7 years of experience, but I am curious in maybe pivoting into medicine or at least combining the two fields. I have been feeling extreme boredom and dissatisfaction and was hoping pursuing medicine would give me some renewed passion.
  - 2snakes 3y ago
    You'll need to exhibit character like servant leadership to do well as a doctor.
    - 2snakes 3y ago
      And by that I mean not burning out. The demands on a M.D. are intense. At least from what I know of the ones I’ve talked to.
  - Arch-TK 3y ago
    I've dealt with extreme boredom and dissatisfaction and changed professions (albeit from software to information security) and after years I am again facing the same issues. I feel like there may be deeper problems here. In retrospect, while a career change hasn't damaged my career prospects, (on the contrary, it seems like I am probably more employable) I certainly don't have as much experience in either field as I would have if I had just stuck to one (although, through diligence, I have kept on top of my software skills, at least in my particular set of niches). As such, I can't necessarily recommend pursuing this type of solution to your particular problem (although medicine definitely seems distinctly different to tech so maybe it WILL solve the problem). I guess what I'm trying to say is, maybe consider other options such as trying to completely understand the root cause for your dissatisfaction and extreme boredom. Believe me, I know this isn't easy, but at this point I am at a loss for other options and feel like I must figure out exactly what causes me to feel like this in order to avoid having this happen a third time.
zwaps 3y ago
I went from finishing my PhD straight into consulting and I am happy about the reduced stress and better work hours
twelve40 3y ago
Several startups back, I worked for a pompous boss, ex-Goldman-VP, who told me that people who get masters are worse programmers, especially if it's from a better school than their bachelor's. You'll be surprised how many nutty biases people have out there.
- totoglazer 3y ago
  Isn’t this a pretty universally held opinion?
  - sgillen 3y ago
    I haven’t seen this bias personally, what is the thought process behind it? If they were any good they would just have gotten a job or something?
    - totoglazer 3y ago
      Exactly. The cynical view: If you were any good you wouldn’t need the master’s degree. If you were good and wanted to learn more you’d do a PhD. But you didn’t learn what you were supposed to in undergrad, or could not get/do a job, or need a visa. So you paid a bunch of money to some school that wouldn’t let you into undergrad or a PhD, but will take your cash for a full fare professional masters degree mill. I’ve seen this in industry and in academia.
      - wink 3y ago
        See my other comment, would be fascinating to know if the general perception has changed in countries where the Bachelor's + Master's system has not be the norm forever, i.e. 10-15y ago I knew no one who only did a Bachelor's, then a few started doing that in Computer Science, but still kinda rare. Maybe it's different now. (Of course the degrees still being basically free compared to the US makes a huge difference if you're willing to stay another year or two..)
        3y ago
082349872349872 3y ago
> make the company sponsor that master degree Just a note that I jumped from academia to industry last century, and even then although my advisor and department (science) were horrified at the thought of aiming for anything less than a doctorate (masters? that's a consolation degree!), when I went to talk with the Dean (engineering) he gave me exactly the same advice: if you want a degree, get your company to pay for it.
- throwaway9870 3y ago
  What is your degree in? Because when I got a PhD in EE it was covered by either being a Research or Teaching Assistant. What school/dept would suggest aiming for anything less than a PhD as horrifying? Most students go that path.
  - 082349872349872 3y ago
    Planetary science.
yodsanklai 3y ago
> Nothing changes except a permanent mental scar. That's a very broad generalization. Everybody has a different experience, depending on the field, their advisor, their lab, their skills, their personality and so on... To me, a PhD was pretty much like any other job. The last couple of months were bit harder because of the final deadline, but nothing drastic when you're young. My current job in industry is more stressful overall. What sucked for me was after the PhD, being an academic, but it's another story.
- Fomite 3y ago
  Indeed. For me, my PhD was eye-opening in that it was the first opportunity to work the way I wanted to work, and realizing how much more productive I could be that way.
  - Balgair 3y ago
    What field?
    - Fomite 3y ago
      Epidemiology
blueprint 3y ago
on behalf of the world i would like to express thanks to all scientists who have borne personal costs to advance our understanding and life quality wherever it really has done so
fsckboy 3y ago
a lot of what you describe in terms of work culture, expectations, stress, grinder, test of willpower and discipline... is pretty much how high achieving students who suicide describe their lives. So, it's not fortitude, it's other supportive elements of one's emotional life that get one through it.

leaveitalone 3y ago

As a solid B student denied access to a PhD, folks that get PhDs for business reasons really bug me. Especially if they then go on to complain that it was hard. You don't realise how much some of us want to do research but can't get into academia because other, smarter people take the spots for prestige or money. Like, go away and just work on wall street if you're not interested in doing actual science.

maxmalkav 3y ago
The main complain in my environment (composed by both doctors and dropouts) is not about "it being hard" but "it being disappointing", specially when you are interested in doing actual science but you find that will be a small part of the process and many times not as rewarding as expected. You add department politics, personal differences with supervisors or the whole publishing business to the mix and it can get really ugly really fast.
- leaveitalone 3y ago
  Yeah, but I do wonder how much of the reason you're experiencing that is because a lot of the people who make it miserable are there for the wrong reasons?
vector_spaces 3y ago
I'm sorry that you were denied access, gatekeeping is real, especially in STEM fields. I just want to offer that not everyone doing a PhD is doing so for reasons of money or prestige, and not all of them are coming from money or prestige. And the gatekeeping doesn't end once you get in, either. If anything it intensifies the further along you get, and by orders of magnitude the more your circumstances don't parse to something like {age = <30, marital_status = single, kids = false, parental_income = upper_class | middle_class, parental_support = true, needs_to_work_to_survive = false, parent_has_bachelors = true}
- leaveitalone 3y ago
  I'm not sure it was gate keeping, I think there just weren't enough spots and my grades weren't as good as my competitors. Just wish the ones who didn't want to do it didn't bother so that more spots for us lesser graded people could have got in.
  - lumiukko 3y ago
    But even the grades are highly contextual. I am unfamiliar with how much they vary across the US, but usually grades depend a lot on the university itself and the professors teaching or grading the courses. The prestige of the university may be taken into account as well. Perhaps it wasn't possible to go to a "better" university, due to financial or simply personal reasons. Diversity is a really important aspect in building PhD cohorts and research teams - only choosing the best candidates based on grades introduces a bad bias that may even exacerbate the situation.
ray__ 3y ago
Not criticizing your take, just curious–grades and GPA have never been a primary factor for any of the PhD admissions committees that I've been on or exposed to. Usually other factors like research experience, letters of rec, and other personal experiences easily outweigh grades, especially if they're just Bs (very low grades would be an issue). Where are your B grades affecting your grad school applications?
- leaveitalone 3y ago
  It was 20 years ago now, and you couldn't get into grad school with less than an A average. This was in Ontario, Canada.
  - clipsy 3y ago
    > you couldn't get into grad school with less than an A average Then no one "took your spot."
    - leaveitalone 3y ago
      Hi clipsy, it wasn't a cut off, it was just that there were enough people with higher grades taking the spots. If some of those people didn't want to be there and didn't take the spots that they earned, I'm sure they'd have reduced the entry requirements. Best of luck in your future endeavours.
      - clipsy 3y ago
        Apologies for my misinterpretation; I can't honestly say I agree with your overall point of view but my objection was misguided.
pokerface_86 3y ago
[dead]

georgeburdell 3y ago

For me, the biggest drawback was doing all of the life things later. I graduated at 27, which is on the earlier end, then met my partner a year later, got married 2 years after that, bought a house 2 years after that, and then 2 years after that finally felt settled enough to have our first child (second was born 3 years later). Money was usually gating each step. We’re going to be pushing 70 before our children have children, if they take the same path.

TotalCrackpot 3y ago
Do you have a mortgage on the house or is it actually yours?
- lumost 3y ago
  Buying a house without a mortgage is something available to a privileged few. Even if the option is available, it’s arguably unwise until you have to prioritize cash flow in your retirement.
lumiukko 3y ago
Are you aware of how privileged you are?
- tomrod 3y ago
  When discussing with someone, proper manners enlightens a discussant to avoid painting them into a proverbial corner, since such is a negative interaction. From what I read, the person worked their tush off to get through a graduate program, then pushed for more money in a career. What aspect of this do you find privileging? Working their tush off? Pushing for opportunities? A small set of comments online tells one nothing about the background of a person, unless one actively looks for dog whistles and shibboleths.
  - lumiukko 3y ago
    It appeared they rant about how "doing all the things in life later" was the biggest drawback and continues to contradict the point by providing a timeline that places them at 33yo with all of the listed life goals achieved, starting with a graduation (I assume by the context, with a PhD, at 27). Some of such life goals are not even achievable for some. It sounds like a simple attempt to humble-brag. Assuming that they worked their tush off or pushed for opportunities also sounds coming from some privileged background, as it seems to assume that hard work and proper initiative would be sufficient in achieving such things, while for some people the first guard is already getting the necessary elementary education, while being in a stable and safe environment.

bshep 3y ago

So i did a masters in engineering(3yrs), worked for 2 years then went into med school (4yrs) and finished residency (3yrs) in the same time a friend of mine did a PHD in engineering… I was shocked when i found out he had just finished the PHD when i was graduating residency.

make3 3y ago
[flagged]
- AlexSW 3y ago
  Presumably that the opportunity cost can be rather high.
dfit99 3y ago
Just curious, what inspired you to pursue medicine. I have been a SDE at a FAANG with 7 years of experience, but I am curious in maybe pivoting into medicine or at least combining the two fields. I have been feeling extreme boredom and dissatisfaction and was hoping pursuing medicine would give me some renewed passion.
- 2snakes 3y ago
  You'll need to exhibit character like servant leadership to do well as a doctor.
  - 2snakes 3y ago
    And by that I mean not burning out. The demands on a M.D. are intense. At least from what I know of the ones I’ve talked to.
- Arch-TK 3y ago
  I've dealt with extreme boredom and dissatisfaction and changed professions (albeit from software to information security) and after years I am again facing the same issues. I feel like there may be deeper problems here. In retrospect, while a career change hasn't damaged my career prospects, (on the contrary, it seems like I am probably more employable) I certainly don't have as much experience in either field as I would have if I had just stuck to one (although, through diligence, I have kept on top of my software skills, at least in my particular set of niches). As such, I can't necessarily recommend pursuing this type of solution to your particular problem (although medicine definitely seems distinctly different to tech so maybe it WILL solve the problem). I guess what I'm trying to say is, maybe consider other options such as trying to completely understand the root cause for your dissatisfaction and extreme boredom. Believe me, I know this isn't easy, but at this point I am at a loss for other options and feel like I must figure out exactly what causes me to feel like this in order to avoid having this happen a third time.

zwaps 3y ago

I went from finishing my PhD straight into consulting and I am happy about the reduced stress and better work hours

twelve40 3y ago

Several startups back, I worked for a pompous boss, ex-Goldman-VP, who told me that people who get masters are worse programmers, especially if it's from a better school than their bachelor's. You'll be surprised how many nutty biases people have out there.

totoglazer 3y ago
Isn’t this a pretty universally held opinion?
- sgillen 3y ago
  I haven’t seen this bias personally, what is the thought process behind it? If they were any good they would just have gotten a job or something?
  - totoglazer 3y ago
    Exactly. The cynical view: If you were any good you wouldn’t need the master’s degree. If you were good and wanted to learn more you’d do a PhD. But you didn’t learn what you were supposed to in undergrad, or could not get/do a job, or need a visa. So you paid a bunch of money to some school that wouldn’t let you into undergrad or a PhD, but will take your cash for a full fare professional masters degree mill. I’ve seen this in industry and in academia.
    - wink 3y ago
      See my other comment, would be fascinating to know if the general perception has changed in countries where the Bachelor's + Master's system has not be the norm forever, i.e. 10-15y ago I knew no one who only did a Bachelor's, then a few started doing that in Computer Science, but still kinda rare. Maybe it's different now. (Of course the degrees still being basically free compared to the US makes a huge difference if you're willing to stay another year or two..)
      - 3y ago

082349872349872 3y ago

> make the company sponsor that master degree Just a note that I jumped from academia to industry last century, and even then although my advisor and department (science) were horrified at the thought of aiming for anything less than a doctorate (masters? that's a consolation degree!), when I went to talk with the Dean (engineering) he gave me exactly the same advice: if you want a degree, get your company to pay for it.

throwaway9870 3y ago
What is your degree in? Because when I got a PhD in EE it was covered by either being a Research or Teaching Assistant. What school/dept would suggest aiming for anything less than a PhD as horrifying? Most students go that path.
- 082349872349872 3y ago
  Planetary science.

yodsanklai 3y ago

> Nothing changes except a permanent mental scar. That's a very broad generalization. Everybody has a different experience, depending on the field, their advisor, their lab, their skills, their personality and so on... To me, a PhD was pretty much like any other job. The last couple of months were bit harder because of the final deadline, but nothing drastic when you're young. My current job in industry is more stressful overall. What sucked for me was after the PhD, being an academic, but it's another story.

Fomite 3y ago
Indeed. For me, my PhD was eye-opening in that it was the first opportunity to work the way I wanted to work, and realizing how much more productive I could be that way.
- Balgair 3y ago
  What field?
  - Fomite 3y ago
    Epidemiology

blueprint 3y ago

on behalf of the world i would like to express thanks to all scientists who have borne personal costs to advance our understanding and life quality wherever it really has done so

fsckboy 3y ago

a lot of what you describe in terms of work culture, expectations, stress, grinder, test of willpower and discipline... is pretty much how high achieving students who suicide describe their lives. So, it's not fortitude, it's other supportive elements of one's emotional life that get one through it.