7 ms·

> I sincerely hope that the next round of EU laws tackles this instead of privacy. It's just as big an issue, especially if you're running a small business. Th

> I sincerely hope that the next round of EU laws tackles this instead of privacy. It's just as big an issue, especially if you're running a small business. This! Couldn't agree more. I believe this is a much more bigger, huge problem compared to privacy, which is preventable (users can choose not to use a service) but this can take down entire businesses because of data giants' crappy/false alerting systems. It should be illegal for Google, say, to remove listing without proving, or if that's not possible, if they remove they should legally be forced to compensate for the damage done. (Of course Google is just an example here, applies to any large enough platform) Maybe then they will take this serious.

franciscop 3y ago
> users can choose not to use a service By that logic you can just not use Google. But that's ridiculous, as ridiculous as the statement that users can choose not to use a service. I believe it's impossible to live in modern society without having an account in FAANG, even harder than a business not having a google maps listing.
- a_nop 3y ago
  People get along fine without accounts in FAANG. You don't even need an account to use many Google services.
  - franciscop 3y ago
    Who lives fine without a smartphone today? See your sibling comment for an example.
    - zogrodea 3y ago
      I do in the UK (use a desktop for digital services), but I will need a phone next year after my current contract ends since employers like to have a chat via phone after applications.
    - cobbaut 3y ago
      I do.
      - franciscop 3y ago
        What do you do when you need it? Banking or CC app for mandatory 2FA? gvmt Covid mandatory app to travel anywhere? QR code for restaurants? Places that require an app in general? This is ofc locale-dependent, but if before the pandemic you could barely live without a smartphone, today is just impossible (at least in the 2 countries I visit often).
        dcz_self 3y ago
        > Banking or CC app for mandatory 2FA? Switched banks. > gvmt Covid mandatory app to travel anywhere? There wasn't one, thank $DEITY (Germany). > QR code for restaurants? Never encountered one without a menu yet, but I'd just go to another one. > Places that require an app in general? Never encountered those, either. There was one on my offline backpacking trip which required digital payment. It was sad, but I had to forfeit.
        cobbaut 3y ago
        Thanks, and indeed. Some places do require an app and while there are alternatives, there may not be another choice in the future. But not today, most of my elderly neighbours also don't own a smartphone and yet they survive in this city (Antwerp). Life without a smartphone is possible, and imho calmer and more relaxed.
        BoxOfRain 3y ago
        To be fair even the surveillance-obsessed UK offered a paper alternative to the vaccine passport scheme, although Partygate completely crippled the government's political capital for keeping restrictions around anyway not long after if I remember correctly.
        rex_gallorum2 3y ago
        Banks tend to have some back up, such as a TAN generator. I have used those for Euro bank accounts that require 2FA. US bank accounts are usually fine with a phone number, which can be a dumb phone. There were no real covid restrictions where I live, and no app, so that was not a problem (but that is definitely something people should push back against, as it's horrifying). I would never, ever eat in a restaurant that required you to use a QR code. They can simply go to hell. It's mostly trendy places that do that, anyway, and I prefer hole-in- the-wall restaurants anyway. I understand this stuff is a lot more advanced in some countries, but even in the US it's pretty easy to get by without any of it.
    - rex_gallorum2 3y ago
      I do. I am beginning to feel the costs though. Even telling people that I don't have one is getting a bit awkward. Imagine the look of incomprehension. A lot of people talk about 'needing' a smartphone for services/stuff I have never used, and probably would never use. I suppose I just kept living my life as I did before the 2010s, while everyone else changed. I was already in my 30s at that time, so not subject to the same social pressures a younger person would have felt, so perhaps it was easier.
      - MandieD 3y ago
        When I tell people that, sorry, I don't have WhatsApp, they either look at me like I have a screw loose, or offer to help me install it (I am a middle-aged lady, so technical incompetence must be my excuse). I'd love to see the reaction to pulling out an old-school flip-phone, or providing an obvious land-line number! That and my avoidance of Facebook didn't really matter until I had a kid and he started nursery school. I somehow got myself elected head of the Parents' Council, but it's been tough dealing with the mental block the slightly-younger generation has for email, and Signal is apparently a little too out there for non-techy 20/30-somethings of either gender. I'm not as privacy-conscious as you, as I have a fairly recent iPhone; I'd probably be better described as social-media-skeptical, but your right to live a normal life without a smartphone is tied to my right to live a normal life without intrusive social media.
        rex_gallorum2 3y ago
        I've encountered the WhatsApp issue too. It's the communication tool in some parts of the world, but not others. In some circles people cannot imagine that you are a living breathing person who does not have it. I use a bottom tier flip phone in the US, and a 13 year old Nokia with a pay-as-you go SIM in Europe. I've noticed that there has been a generational shift towards smartphone-only communications, but I haven't really had to deal with it. I'd like to hear more about that. Oddly I use some of the same communication tools that young kids use, namely Discord, as it doesn't require a phone number. Linking online accounts and communications to a phone number has always put me off.
    - taxcoder 3y ago
      Here, desktop for online services, flip phone when traveling, VOIP for most phone usage.
  - toomim 3y ago
    You can't download apps on your phone without logging into a FAANG account in the app store.
    - smeej 3y ago
      This is patently false. I've been using GrapheneOS with F-droid and Aurora Store without logging into a Google account for years. I've yet to run into a single thing I either couldn't use or couldn't work around.
      - jlokier 3y ago
        Does that include banking and credit card apps? Most of my bank and card accounts require their own phone app to authorise transactions from time to time, and several accounts require their phone app to authenticate login to online banking, even if I'm opening it in a regular desktop browser on another computer. Three of those accounts don't have any other way of being managed than online, so their phone app (or tablet app) is mandatory to do anything with the account. I had to buy a replacement phone in a hurry last year when my old phone's screen stopped working, just so I could login to make an urgent bank transfer. I would have preferred to take my time over what to buy, but so many financial things I use are blocked without a smartphone now.
        smeej 3y ago
        Yes, it does. Even my podunk little credit union's app works absolutely fine.
        ThePowerOfFuet 3y ago
        Yes, every banking and financial app I have tried runs just fine on GrapheneOS.
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
        tapland 3y ago
  - trashtester 3y ago
    Increasingly, even public agencies require/assume people to have a smartphone now, either an iPhone or an Android. At that point, you literally cannot live as an adult in the society without FAANG dependence, even if it's a third party Android phone, at least not legally.
- vegetablepotpie 3y ago
  I just visited family in California and I was surprised at how many things needs an app now, and there is no alternative. For example, I went to visit the beach, which is on a national park. Parking required an app. There were park rangers there, the location was staffed, but they did not accept cash or credit card. Just an app. And there are two phone operating systems now, Apple and Android. So no. Can’t live without FAANG. I ended up downloading the app on the spot and purchasing a pass. I’m sure the park service does this for their convenience. And it’s so populated near the coasts that if anyone doesn’t comply, they still have plenty of people who would gladly use the app. They can get away with demanding smartphone use. You can certainly get away with not having a smartphone further inland, and not needing to depend on FAANG explicitly. But I know this expectation is going to creep into the continent over time. In 5 years, if you say “I don’t have a smart phone” you’ll just be denied service. Period. No questions asked. And you will be considered the unreasonable party by most.
  - BoxOfRain 3y ago
    This is pretty much the only thing stopping me from throwing my smartphone in the sea and never looking back, it's actually quite hard to avoid needing one to interact with society.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - 2143 3y ago
    > They can get away with demanding smartphone use. > In 5 years, if you say “I don’t have a smart phone” you’ll just be denied service. Period. No questions asked. IANAL, but I feel like that should be illegal. Sure, they can set up an app and those who want to use it may do so, but for things things like parking there ought to be an alternate. Beach, national park etc is a predominantly offline service for which it's absurd to insist on using an app. Especially for something that's on a "national park" — I don't really know what the "national" part indicates (not from USA) but I'm assuming that the govt is involved. Somebody should go to court.
    - 3y ago
- JohnFen 3y ago
  > I believe it's impossible to live in modern society without having an account in FAANG Oh, this is completely possible -- I do it. But it won't stop them from getting your personal data.
  - paulddraper 3y ago
    What smartphone do you use?
dredmorbius 3y ago
Given that Google handles a tremendous amount of email (not all to gmail.com domains either), and that other companies maintain "shadow profiles" of non-members, or simply track vast numbers of people (credit bureaux and other data-brokers), let alone the vast levels of surveillance baked into the present-day Internet, saying people can simply opt out of services is ... profoundly untrue. There's not need to pit fairness in business dealings against privacy. Both are wins for the average person.
klntsky 3y ago
But then we will face the original problem: prevalence of fake location spam
- trashtester 3y ago
  Not if you have to provide proof of your identity to register. Such proof could then also be a prerequisite to have government protection against arbitrary bans.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
shreyshnaccount 3y ago
The problem is that such large platforms work like utilities, but are governed as services
- shreyshnaccount 3y ago
  For example it is illegal for the water utility companies where I live to cut off water supply, even if someone does not pay the bills. It should be illegal for payment processors, search engines and other large internet platforms to take away people's business. We need utilities, not services.
  - bsenftner 3y ago
    1000%, the ISPs need to be treated just like a power company, not privatized at all.
LeeroyWasHere 3y ago
Privacy is a choice? That's a new one, I didn't know people had the choice of their data not being leaked or sold by small and big businesses. We can chew gum and walk at the same time, no need to throw privacy under the bus.
- can16358p 3y ago
  Of course privacy is not a choice, it's a fundamental right. Giving your personal data to private companies, however, is a choice. You can simply not use their services.
  - fsflover 3y ago
    https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36567329 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36567329
  - jstanley 3y ago
    You really can't. If you don't want to be homeless, you're either renting or buying, and in either case people are going to be processing your personal data. You're also probably going to need a bank account, which you also can't open without handing over personal data. If you want electricity, you're then dealing with another company that is processing your data. Same for water and gas and internet. Sure, some things are optional, some things can be worked around by buying in person and using cash instead of buying online. But a lot of things are just not practically optional.
  - ErikBjare 3y ago
    Wow, never heard someone ask me to cancel all services if I want privacy. That's new.
    - lo_zamoyski 3y ago
      "Man who boycotts all privacy-violating companies now alone in cave with his Goya beans and copy of Stallman's GNU manifesto"
  - 3y ago
prox 3y ago
I really am I favor of your suggestion. Next to that my stance is that big companies should be by law be required to have a human representative you can contact, especially in the time of AI.

franciscop 3y ago

> users can choose not to use a service By that logic you can just not use Google. But that's ridiculous, as ridiculous as the statement that users can choose not to use a service. I believe it's impossible to live in modern society without having an account in FAANG, even harder than a business not having a google maps listing.

a_nop 3y ago
People get along fine without accounts in FAANG. You don't even need an account to use many Google services.
- franciscop 3y ago
  Who lives fine without a smartphone today? See your sibling comment for an example.
  - zogrodea 3y ago
    I do in the UK (use a desktop for digital services), but I will need a phone next year after my current contract ends since employers like to have a chat via phone after applications.
  - cobbaut 3y ago
    I do.
    - franciscop 3y ago
      What do you do when you need it? Banking or CC app for mandatory 2FA? gvmt Covid mandatory app to travel anywhere? QR code for restaurants? Places that require an app in general? This is ofc locale-dependent, but if before the pandemic you could barely live without a smartphone, today is just impossible (at least in the 2 countries I visit often).
      - dcz_self 3y ago
        > Banking or CC app for mandatory 2FA? Switched banks. > gvmt Covid mandatory app to travel anywhere? There wasn't one, thank $DEITY (Germany). > QR code for restaurants? Never encountered one without a menu yet, but I'd just go to another one. > Places that require an app in general? Never encountered those, either. There was one on my offline backpacking trip which required digital payment. It was sad, but I had to forfeit.
        cobbaut 3y ago
        Thanks, and indeed. Some places do require an app and while there are alternatives, there may not be another choice in the future. But not today, most of my elderly neighbours also don't own a smartphone and yet they survive in this city (Antwerp). Life without a smartphone is possible, and imho calmer and more relaxed.
      - BoxOfRain 3y ago
        To be fair even the surveillance-obsessed UK offered a paper alternative to the vaccine passport scheme, although Partygate completely crippled the government's political capital for keeping restrictions around anyway not long after if I remember correctly.
      - rex_gallorum2 3y ago
        Banks tend to have some back up, such as a TAN generator. I have used those for Euro bank accounts that require 2FA. US bank accounts are usually fine with a phone number, which can be a dumb phone. There were no real covid restrictions where I live, and no app, so that was not a problem (but that is definitely something people should push back against, as it's horrifying). I would never, ever eat in a restaurant that required you to use a QR code. They can simply go to hell. It's mostly trendy places that do that, anyway, and I prefer hole-in- the-wall restaurants anyway. I understand this stuff is a lot more advanced in some countries, but even in the US it's pretty easy to get by without any of it.
  - rex_gallorum2 3y ago
    I do. I am beginning to feel the costs though. Even telling people that I don't have one is getting a bit awkward. Imagine the look of incomprehension. A lot of people talk about 'needing' a smartphone for services/stuff I have never used, and probably would never use. I suppose I just kept living my life as I did before the 2010s, while everyone else changed. I was already in my 30s at that time, so not subject to the same social pressures a younger person would have felt, so perhaps it was easier.
    - MandieD 3y ago
      When I tell people that, sorry, I don't have WhatsApp, they either look at me like I have a screw loose, or offer to help me install it (I am a middle-aged lady, so technical incompetence must be my excuse). I'd love to see the reaction to pulling out an old-school flip-phone, or providing an obvious land-line number! That and my avoidance of Facebook didn't really matter until I had a kid and he started nursery school. I somehow got myself elected head of the Parents' Council, but it's been tough dealing with the mental block the slightly-younger generation has for email, and Signal is apparently a little too out there for non-techy 20/30-somethings of either gender. I'm not as privacy-conscious as you, as I have a fairly recent iPhone; I'd probably be better described as social-media-skeptical, but your right to live a normal life without a smartphone is tied to my right to live a normal life without intrusive social media.
      - rex_gallorum2 3y ago
        I've encountered the WhatsApp issue too. It's the communication tool in some parts of the world, but not others. In some circles people cannot imagine that you are a living breathing person who does not have it. I use a bottom tier flip phone in the US, and a 13 year old Nokia with a pay-as-you go SIM in Europe. I've noticed that there has been a generational shift towards smartphone-only communications, but I haven't really had to deal with it. I'd like to hear more about that. Oddly I use some of the same communication tools that young kids use, namely Discord, as it doesn't require a phone number. Linking online accounts and communications to a phone number has always put me off.
  - taxcoder 3y ago
    Here, desktop for online services, flip phone when traveling, VOIP for most phone usage.
- toomim 3y ago
  You can't download apps on your phone without logging into a FAANG account in the app store.
  - smeej 3y ago
    This is patently false. I've been using GrapheneOS with F-droid and Aurora Store without logging into a Google account for years. I've yet to run into a single thing I either couldn't use or couldn't work around.
    - jlokier 3y ago
      Does that include banking and credit card apps? Most of my bank and card accounts require their own phone app to authorise transactions from time to time, and several accounts require their phone app to authenticate login to online banking, even if I'm opening it in a regular desktop browser on another computer. Three of those accounts don't have any other way of being managed than online, so their phone app (or tablet app) is mandatory to do anything with the account. I had to buy a replacement phone in a hurry last year when my old phone's screen stopped working, just so I could login to make an urgent bank transfer. I would have preferred to take my time over what to buy, but so many financial things I use are blocked without a smartphone now.
      - smeej 3y ago
        Yes, it does. Even my podunk little credit union's app works absolutely fine.
      - ThePowerOfFuet 3y ago
        Yes, every banking and financial app I have tried runs just fine on GrapheneOS.
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - tapland 3y ago
- trashtester 3y ago
  Increasingly, even public agencies require/assume people to have a smartphone now, either an iPhone or an Android. At that point, you literally cannot live as an adult in the society without FAANG dependence, even if it's a third party Android phone, at least not legally.
vegetablepotpie 3y ago
I just visited family in California and I was surprised at how many things needs an app now, and there is no alternative. For example, I went to visit the beach, which is on a national park. Parking required an app. There were park rangers there, the location was staffed, but they did not accept cash or credit card. Just an app. And there are two phone operating systems now, Apple and Android. So no. Can’t live without FAANG. I ended up downloading the app on the spot and purchasing a pass. I’m sure the park service does this for their convenience. And it’s so populated near the coasts that if anyone doesn’t comply, they still have plenty of people who would gladly use the app. They can get away with demanding smartphone use. You can certainly get away with not having a smartphone further inland, and not needing to depend on FAANG explicitly. But I know this expectation is going to creep into the continent over time. In 5 years, if you say “I don’t have a smart phone” you’ll just be denied service. Period. No questions asked. And you will be considered the unreasonable party by most.
- BoxOfRain 3y ago
  This is pretty much the only thing stopping me from throwing my smartphone in the sea and never looking back, it's actually quite hard to avoid needing one to interact with society.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- 2143 3y ago
  > They can get away with demanding smartphone use. > In 5 years, if you say “I don’t have a smart phone” you’ll just be denied service. Period. No questions asked. IANAL, but I feel like that should be illegal. Sure, they can set up an app and those who want to use it may do so, but for things things like parking there ought to be an alternate. Beach, national park etc is a predominantly offline service for which it's absurd to insist on using an app. Especially for something that's on a "national park" — I don't really know what the "national" part indicates (not from USA) but I'm assuming that the govt is involved. Somebody should go to court.
  - 3y ago
JohnFen 3y ago
> I believe it's impossible to live in modern society without having an account in FAANG Oh, this is completely possible -- I do it. But it won't stop them from getting your personal data.
- paulddraper 3y ago
  What smartphone do you use?

dredmorbius 3y ago

Given that Google handles a tremendous amount of email (not all to gmail.com domains either), and that other companies maintain "shadow profiles" of non-members, or simply track vast numbers of people (credit bureaux and other data-brokers), let alone the vast levels of surveillance baked into the present-day Internet, saying people can simply opt out of services is ... profoundly untrue. There's not need to pit fairness in business dealings against privacy. Both are wins for the average person.

klntsky 3y ago

But then we will face the original problem: prevalence of fake location spam

trashtester 3y ago
Not if you have to provide proof of your identity to register. Such proof could then also be a prerequisite to have government protection against arbitrary bans.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

shreyshnaccount 3y ago

The problem is that such large platforms work like utilities, but are governed as services

shreyshnaccount 3y ago
For example it is illegal for the water utility companies where I live to cut off water supply, even if someone does not pay the bills. It should be illegal for payment processors, search engines and other large internet platforms to take away people's business. We need utilities, not services.
- bsenftner 3y ago
  1000%, the ISPs need to be treated just like a power company, not privatized at all.

LeeroyWasHere 3y ago

Privacy is a choice? That's a new one, I didn't know people had the choice of their data not being leaked or sold by small and big businesses. We can chew gum and walk at the same time, no need to throw privacy under the bus.

can16358p 3y ago
Of course privacy is not a choice, it's a fundamental right. Giving your personal data to private companies, however, is a choice. You can simply not use their services.
- fsflover 3y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36567329 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36567329
- jstanley 3y ago
  You really can't. If you don't want to be homeless, you're either renting or buying, and in either case people are going to be processing your personal data. You're also probably going to need a bank account, which you also can't open without handing over personal data. If you want electricity, you're then dealing with another company that is processing your data. Same for water and gas and internet. Sure, some things are optional, some things can be worked around by buying in person and using cash instead of buying online. But a lot of things are just not practically optional.
- ErikBjare 3y ago
  Wow, never heard someone ask me to cancel all services if I want privacy. That's new.
  - lo_zamoyski 3y ago
    "Man who boycotts all privacy-violating companies now alone in cave with his Goya beans and copy of Stallman's GNU manifesto"
- 3y ago

prox 3y ago

I really am I favor of your suggestion. Next to that my stance is that big companies should be by law be required to have a human representative you can contact, especially in the time of AI.