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The world is watching in disbelief as France tears itself apart
- bikezen 3y ago> largely the result of almost a quarter century of craven governments neglecting essential law and order. Sorry, but no telegraph.
- tharne 3y ago[flagged]
- raxxorraxor 3y agoI think the protesters just want a reason to riot and to find a vehicle for their frustrations, but a framing like this is just as much a form of venting.
- paul_grisham 3y ago[flagged]
- gmerc 3y agoJesus Christ. What we are seeing is decade long failure to integrate the children of people who were integral to building the french economy.
- paul_grisham 3y agoThey haven't integrated and they never will. There were leaks showing Amazon's union busting efforts for Whole Foods - the more diverse a city, the less likely locations there were to unionize.
- jncfhnb 3y agoIs that your best piece of evidence?
- paul_grisham 3y agoCommon sense, everyone knows it except the white liberal middle class. Why do prison populations group themselves by race and not class?
- kadoban 3y agoBecause approximately everyone in prison is lower class, almost by definition?
- smoldesu 3y agoBecause class distinctions aren't meaningful when everyone around you is incarcerated?
- jncfhnb 3y agoI want to believe that in fancy rich people prisons there are gangs formed across university’s attended
- paul_grisham 3y agoBut racial distinctions are. So they're relevant in every case, whereas class distinctions are not.
- TheCoelacanth 3y agoCommon sense was that Germans, Italians, Irish, etc. could never integrate into America. Common sense was that Ocitanians and Bretons could never integrate into France. Common sense was that hundreds of independent principalities with mutually unintelligible languages could never integrate into Germany and Italy. Common sense was that Samnium and Lucanium could never integrate into Rome. Except all of them did and those countries were stronger for it.
- tharne 3y agoIf a group of individuals migrates to another country, the onus is on that group to integrate into their host country, not the other way around.
- Supermancho 3y ago> the onus is on that group to integrate into their host country, That's the belief. The reality is that the onus is not accepted and largely does not resolve for a couple generations. In the short term, the effect is obvious. Pure disruption from an economical and cultural perspective. A melting pot of the worst and best of both worlds. The worst effects necessarily dwarfing the short term benefits. However, in the long term, a melting pot/diversity is believed to always be a net benefit. I'm not sure why the belief persists, other than convenience (can't really unmix populations after generations) and confirmation bias. Economies improve over time or nation economic models disappear, making it moot. I believe how a nation specifically deals with immigration has influenced the outcomes a great deal, for the better. Not dealing with immigration as a serious, ongoing concern, is a crap shoot.
- atxbcp 3y agothey've been in France a few decades, France is a more than a thousand years old, how can they have been integral to building to French economy ? were they here during the industrial revolution ? the "30 glorieuses" ? no.
- paul_grisham 3y agoThe saddest thing is people can only think about this topic in economic terms. People mock the "line must go up" thinking in capitalism, yet become enraged when you question this thinking with regards to migrants and the economy. That long term the economic benefits are marginal to non-existent is almost irrelevant.
- jacooper 3y agoAh yes, speaking from a country which almost has no native population? (Assuming you are from the U.S.)
- paul_grisham 3y agoWhite Americans didn't integrate into Native American cultures, so I don't see your point.
- jacooper 3y agoMy point is the U.S. is built on immigration, people from Spain, Germany, Africa and many other countries live with each other, and because of relatively successful integration, the U.S. is where it's now.
- tharne 3y agoOutside of the Great Rift Valley, every country was built on immigration at some point.
- paul_grisham 3y agoThe % of the population who are immigrants is the highest it's ever been. You now have signs in 2 languages. The American south will be integrated into Hispanic culture, not the other way around.
- jacooper 3y agoYou are kidding yourself if you think thats an actual possibility. You think their children, who study at U.S. schools, and live their entire lives in the U.S. will still treat Spanish as their mother tongue?
- paul_grisham 3y agoWhy not? Hispanics have La Raza, they have a concept of racial unity Americans do not.
- neovialogistics 3y agoIn France's particular case over half of the underclass are descendants of population movements prior to the second world war. This instance of racial rioting, the largest since 2005, is more analogous to American black-white ghetto-centered race riots than to the popular image of migrant-native tensions.
- acdha 3y agoAs an American, it’s wild hearing someone claim that migration is a net negative. I constantly patronize businesses founded by successive waves of immigrants (and, no, not just white ones if you’re making some racial argument), many of my colleagues were born in other countries, and our culture is full of things which came from around the world. What’s going on in France is the product of specific policies and antipathies dating back to the colonial era, just as in the United States our problems date back to the way we never finished dealing with the impacts of slavery, but that doesn’t mean that immigration as a concept is flawed any more than, say, the British Post Office scandal means IT projects cannot produce trustworthy systems.
- paul_grisham 3y agoCost of living has risen significantly since the immigration and nationality act in 1965. California has seen the most immigration has one of the highest costs of living. Income inequality has increased drastically. Denmark's recent statistics showed a net tax burden on migrant families, even after successive generations. Cultural cohesion has been destroyed in America to the point people actually think there never was a dominant culture in America, it was always values based. It's not even a country anymore, just a giant corporation. Diversity is supposedly an unquestionable good, yet every statistic shows people are more isolated than they have ever been.
- nailer 3y agohttps://archive.is/pYowX https://archive.is/pYowX
- flashback2199 3y agoIt is difficult for me to get an accurate picture of what is actually going on from emotional pieces like this one. Where can I read about the facts?
- nailer 3y agoWatch the video for yourself: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Killing_of_Nael_M._Video.ogv https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Killing_of_Nael_M._Vide... You should also be aware that this person was known to the police and it is easy to research why.
- rtrdrpr 3y agoGreat job by the officer. If we treated all criminals this way, there would be no crime!
- jacooper 3y agoHonestly if the police can't stop him without killing him, they aren't doing their job well enough.
- BillWyeRex 3y ago[dead]
- xupybd 3y agoThe policeman has been charged with homicide and is in custody over the killing of a teenager near Paris.
- smoldesu 3y agoI wouldn't consider this an appropriate response to a nonviolent offender.
- hackerbeat 3y ago
- nailer 3y ago“The viral video of a 17-year-old Nahel Merzouk seemingly listening to the policemen who stopped him in the street only to be shot point-blank” That’s not what the video shows. The kid in the car has a gun pointed at him and drives off, very clearly. He is then shot in the arm. Nobody is disputing either of the above. Some people say the officer was dragged but I can’t tell myself. Video is at: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Nahel_Merzouk https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Nahel_Merzouk
- NoRelToEmber 3y agoOdd. The wanton stabbing of multiple children in a park in Annecy [1] didn't trigger any sort of us-vs-them reaction. Meanwhile this case, where the officer responsible has already been charged with homicide [2] (and the victim had before tried to speed away, only stopping when forced to by traffic, and again sped away immediately before being shot), is causing nationwide riots. What gives? Why does the stabbing of multiple children barely register, but this case is an explosion? [1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65841666 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65841666 [2] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66075798 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66075798
- nerdbert 3y agoThe park stabbing was a lone crazy person, that was clear to everyone. The police murder was perpetrated by a member of an omnipresent institution that people in disaffected communities have negative interactions with regularly.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- hackerbeat 3y agoI‘m sure the interactions the cops regularly have are pretty negative also.
- teg4n_ 3y agoThey can always get a different job instead of killing people.
- hackerbeat 3y agoNonsense. Following your logic, there‘ll be no cops left eventually. Also, it‘s obvious the killing was nothing but a bad reflex to an intense situation. I‘m sure the cop regretted this bad reflex the second thereafter. „According to the public prosecutor of Nanterre, two Paris Police Prefecture motorcycle officers noticed a Mercedes-Benz A Class AMG with a Polish license plate driving at high speed in a bus lane, driven by a young-looking person at around 7:55 am. The officers activated their warning signals (audible and visual) and indicated to the driver of the car, then stationary at a red traffic light, to stop. The vehicle proceed to start moving and ran the red light. The officers followed the car and alerted their superiors via radio. The car committed multiple traffic violations, endangering a pedestrian and a cyclist. Due to traffic congestion, the vehicle was eventually forced to stop.“ See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Nahel_Merzouk#Shoot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Nahel_Merzouk#Shoot... If you think you‘d handle everything correctly in such an intense situation, while your life is also at risk due to a maniac behind a wheel, maybe you should consider becoming a cop. It‘s always easy to feel like a better human being and badmouth people from your cozy safe space, when you‘ve never been in an intense situation like this before.
- adev_ 3y agoIf I could get a pound every time the Telegraph predicted the end of France, I could safely take my retirement in a paradise island right now. Too bad they were much more "conservative" to predict this bloody mess that became Brexit...
- rektide 3y agoThis take is absolute classic Telegraph shit. My own tendencies lay way more in sympathy to the people, support protests, believe it's part of the great arch of society. I don't want to agree with this article at all. And it's not this incident specifically. I hate it, but I have some unease about tensions in general & how they manifest. I believe in the social contract, and I'm not sure how we can fulfill our obligations to ourselves, and how we can renew a sense of justice & improvement after things go wrong. I don't know the situation in France well, but in general, I've harbored some worry in the last 5 years or so that (often justified & honest & deserved) reactions can have large negative impacts on society, and I don't think we the world have the margins to soak these kinds of losses that we used to. Ideally the world would be more oriented towards sustainability, towards resilience, would have safety nets, and be better prepared. But it feels like so much of our social structures do - and i hate to say this, hate the conservatism this implies - rest delicately or precariously in balance. I really so strongly agree with what you are saying. But I also want to find some way to find some permissible perspectives that recognize some of the nuance / scaredness, that can acknowledge some of the very conservative fear for the status quo & it's disruption, ideally without having to also demonize & counter-attack while doing so.
- stargrazer 3y agoI think a large part of it is that they imported a bunch of different disparate cultures over the last few years. All those cultures have their own little societies, and I think very little integration. So you have a mixture of oil and water. And when the new ones have no home or responsibilities and are fed by the government, well, ha, who knew they would bite the hand that housed, fed, and clothed them.
- WheelsAtLarge 3y ago
- mandmandam 3y agoReading this (why?) I got the impression the writer was working feverishly to make people think France's police weren't heavy handed enough the past 25 years. Rabid authoritarianism is a core Telegraph value, and it's weird to see it getting upvoted here. So I clicked her name. If you've ever wondered what a blatant apparatchik looks like: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/authors/a/ak-ao/anne-elisabeth-moutet/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/authors/a/ak-ao/anne-elisabeth-m... I'm certainly no great fan of Macron and his neolib smuggery, but this lady's list of articles is concerning. As are some of these comments...
- 1letterunixname 3y agoThe problems in France run much deeper than the police murdering a brown person. Massive influx of a segregated immigrant population who are forced economically into neglected areas and discriminated against routinely. Over-incarceration and prison system create a breeding ground for criminality and terrorism. Worsening economic outlook for many combined with neoliberal systematic neglect and increased taxation through austerity. The populist fascist white nationalists under Nationally Rally (National Front) who hope to push out Macron would make the situation worse. Riots are what happen when people lack jobs, money, housing, safety, love, or justice.
- nathanaldensr 3y agoAnyone who has been watching the increasing insanity that is immigration in Europe predicted this years ago. No one should be in "disbelief."
- djaouen 3y ago[flagged]
- lobocinza 3y agoI understand people flagging this, it's a sensitive topic. Though it's a shame we can't have a better discussion about this. This doesn't look like normal civil unrest which France has a history of. The current narratives aren't helpful. It seems that racism became an excuse to be criminal and crime an excuse to be racist. I'm a a technologist but technology can't be dissociated from politics. Something is wrong, society is sick and I fear the immuno response may kill the host. People on both sides of the political spectrum are radicalizing, electing authoritarian figures and supporting censorship.