10 ms·

Let's consider this quote "All human life, we may say, consists solely of these two activities: (1) bringing one’s activities into harmony with conscience, or

Let's consider this quote "All human life, we may say, consists solely of these two activities: (1) bringing one’s activities into harmony with conscience, or (2) hiding from oneself the indications of conscience in order to be able to continue to live as before." Note that he has defined all of life as two points about "one" and "oneself". This is why I and I assume many others roll their eyes. Because Tolstoy, and most essays about alcohol, don't even mention what I think is the point of alcohol. It's a drug that makes it easier to socialize, and socializing is very, very good for people. So good that I will risk it, even though alcohol is bad in many ways: bad for physical and mental health, risky for abuse, etc. If you are anti alcohol, that is reasonable, but it seems no one will ever admit what it's really for. This is important, because alcohol is unhealthy and if you want to discourage it, give people other low effort ways to connect.

deafpolygon 3y ago
Socializing is not the point of alcohol. People use it for many other reasons, besides just to socialize. I would know.
lazyant 3y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantsdrunk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantsdrunk
stiglitz 3y ago
I enjoy drinking alone.
- gfody 3y ago
  you’re socializing with yourself
  - NovaDudely 3y ago
    That is a really cool way of putting it. Disclaimer : Everything in moderation.
- jibbit 3y ago
  I think of it more as ‘quieting’ the mind - the internal monologue - this does help with socialising, and numbing bad feelings, but it’s still useful when neither of those things are relevant I.e. winding down after a full-on day. I socialise (and have bad thoughts) in the mornings too, but I dont want a drink then
meitham 3y ago
People are far more social in middle eastern countries where alcohol is banned.
- wbobeirne 3y ago
  Citation needed? How do you measure being far more social?
  - meitham 3y ago
    I think it is a general observation ... I don't think there is a real measurements of happiness or socialability
- Simon_O_Rourke 3y ago
  I'm pretty sure, from an extended stint working out there, that folks in Saudi Arabia aren't exactly all social mix n'mingle types.
  - meitham 3y ago
    I think there is a difference between a community socializing among themselves, and socialing with immigrant/tourists/foreigners. Qatar world cup is one example I think of where the barrier to socializing with *the others* was removed.
- j-a-a-p 3y ago
  I happen to work for a company that has banned alcohol for religious reasons. I would not say the company is particularly social, on the contrary. However, as an alcoholic[0] maybe I am blinded or excluded from the social nirvana of my non-alcoholic colleagues. edit: [0] I learned that irony not really works on a forum. I occasionally drink, but I am get up early enough to bring my kids to school.
- thenoblesunfish 3y ago
  Good point - why is that? How do they acheive it and what are the tradeoffs? An American example that comes to mind is the Mormons. Are they playing a lot of Mafia in the middle east? Hookah bars? Mosques?
sibeliuss 3y ago
I was as social as one could be while drunk and am as solitary as a hermit now that I'm sober. I miss the social life at times, but really, as Tolstoy remarks, it was just an escape from my true nature which I hadn't yet figured out. And what a mess that was. So yes, its a social thing, but is it good? It's something. There are other ways.
- happyjack 3y ago
  This comment really resonates with me. As someone who doesn't drink anymore, I've found how much of a hermit I am and how much I'm okay with that and how it's my true self. I really have few friends, and the ones I do I actually do activities with. My wife is the same way.
- runeks 3y ago
  > I was as social as one could be while drunk and am as solitary as a hermit now that I'm sober. Being drunk and consuming alcohol is not the same thing. I like to drink a couple of beers but not more than that.
  - soco 3y ago
    I feel this is the same discussion as with veganism - anything that's not 100% pure it's getting called drunkard and berated for that. Meh.
Dalewyn 3y ago
Alcohol doesn't exist for socializing, though it does make socializing easier. Correlation does not equal causation. No, alcohol exists for a very simple reason: Clean and sanitary beverage. Lest we forget, alcohol is alcohol. It is by its very nature sanitary and safe to drink, which is why humanity has long consumed it. Safe and clean drinking water in abundance is a fairly modern phenomenon, and it's still only available in a small part of the world at large. Given that, alcohol satisfies both aforementioned activities. Producing and consuming alcohol is harmonious with conscience, that is the desire to "do right" both for yourself and your peers, because beverages that are safe to drink is critically important to yourself and everyone. It is also denying the brutal reality of the world we live in, that is to say we hide from our desire to "do right" because producing and consuming alcohol is easier than ensuring clean and safe drinking water while achieving the same practical goal. Alcohol obviously has its problems, but they are far better than ones incurred from drinking foul water.
- kgwgk 3y ago
  > No, alcohol exists for a very simple reason: Clean and sanitary beverage. That’s why distillation was developed: to separate alcohol from water via evaporation and condensation and get a super-clean and super-sanitary beverage - with as little water as possible.
jalapenos 3y ago
That's one big reason, but the other is numbing bad feelings, which I think is a more interesting field, especially since it often blurs into the social bit. Indeed, for the social aspect, everyone is already fully aware it's not needed, and that they can have fun socialization without it, because of their childhoods. I think the biggest reason alcohol is used is, to put it bluntly, how painful life is. As the child grows into an adult, and realizes the real nature of life and the world, baseline pain increases. And it's hard to be social when you're worried about things or down about things. But alcohol is a cheap, readily available blunt instrument against this pain. No matter how bad you feel, if you down a litre of booze, that pain will definitely, and quickly, stop.
- hnick 3y ago
  It's not just pain, it’s thoughts too (which can also be related of course). I’m someone who will overthink which leads to worries that don’t need to exist and bring no benefit. This is why it helps me socialise, I’m far more likely to talk myself out of it because of the perceived “risk”. Rate limiting my thoughts lets me just act.
- jiggywiggy 3y ago
  Live isnt very painful for me. Still enjoy a beer a bit too much. When I'm super happy and then have a beer it just adds to it. It also can help me relax if I'm working to much. One can argue it's not needed, but at times nice.
  - moffkalast 3y ago
    I'm pretty sure Tolstoy isn't talking about a weekly beer, but the Russian type of alcoholism of downing an entire bottle of vodka every five minutes. See the wiki: > According to a 2011 report by the World Health Organization, annual per capita consumption of alcohol in Russia was about 15.76 litres of pure alcohol, the fourth-highest volume in Europe. > Alcoholism has been a problem throughout the country's history because drinking is a pervasive, socially acceptable behaviour in Russian society
    - 3y ago
soligern 3y ago
Maybe as a corollary. But the answer is really simple when you start out. It makes you feel good. Some of these answers feel like people are allergic to straightforward answers.
The_Colonel 3y ago
I believe the main reason people drink is for its euphoric, anxiolytic and relaxing effects. These are desirable on their own, but they are also very useful specifically for socializing.
dalbasal 3y ago
When text messaging started to take off in the 90s, adults didn't get it. Typing on a keypad sucks, and the phone already has a great communication app. It's called the phone, and if you call someone you can hear each other talk. What they didn't understand is that "I think you're cute. Wanna go on a date?" is much easier in text. That's why kids always passed notes in class. These things lubricate high friction social interactions... the kinds of things that people agonize over, regret, etc. You're right, this is alcohol's primary purpose. Most people stay here.
- Cthulhu_ 3y ago
  I mean first off, only a vocal minority of adults didn't get it; this is usually the case with advancements like this. The same generation you're talking about was also the generation that would write letters and keep diaries, in addition to phone calls. The generations before that didn't have phones would write letters or telegrams. TL;DR, text based communication wasn't a novel concept, but what changed was that it was short and instantaneous.
sorokod 3y ago
Mercy! Educating a Russian on reasons to get drunk!
Al-Khwarizmi 3y ago
That's one important reason, but there's another one that is even more neglected: it just... tastes good (for those of us who like it, of course). For example, as a 90 kg man, for me drinking a single 33cl bottle of beer has pretty much the same effect as drinking water, i.e., I don't feel anything at all (note that I don't drive, in that context it would probably still be relevant). So when I have a single beer with dinner, there is zero intention of socializing, stupefying myself or whatever. I just like the taste (and don't order alcohol-free beer, which is healthier, because I hate its taste). Similarly, having a red wine with a strong sheep milk cheese is an amazing experience, just because the tastes combine so well and enhance each other. If there were alcohol-free versions of the beverages that tasted the same, I'd probably use them most of the time (except in some social contexts). There is no such thing, though.
- deafpolygon 3y ago
  It tastes good because a) you like the carbonation (try drinking sparkling water), and b) your brain wants the alcohol, so it makes beers or anything resembling it taste good. > don't order alcohol-free beer, which is healthier, because I hate its taste
- Steve44 3y ago
  I love the wide variety of tastes you can get. Beers are getting there, but there is no alcohol free wine or spirit that comes close to the flavour carrying profile of decent drinks. I make quite a lot of cocktails and have some quite decent alcohol free ones in my repertoire, but compared to the alcoholic ones there are a very poor imitation.
- reverendjames 3y ago
  Bavaria brand non-alcoholic beer, pomegranate flavor. If you can find it, it's delicious. The regular flavor tastes more like beer but also tastes great.
- medo-bear 3y ago
  I think culture toward drinking is the determining factor. In my culture we are brought up around wine, heavy spirits, and beer. There is no such thing as comming of age by drinking yourself stupid as in UK, US or Australia for example. Intoxication is considered VERY bad form (embarassing). Usually when people feel they are becoming intoxicated they will excuse themselves and go home.
lotsofcows 3y ago
"makes it easier to socialize ... even though alcohol is bad in many ways" Isn't this justification you bring your activities into harmony with conscience?
jahsome 3y ago
> It's a drug that makes it easier to socialize But is unconscious socialization the same as conscious socialization? IMO all socialization is not equal. If you're "engaging" with people who are intoxicated themselves, while you are intoxicated, does that truly yield the same benefits as a genuine, no-barrier interaction? In my experience, no.
- tyre 3y ago
  That’s the wrong dichotomy. The options for some people are socializing while tipsy vs. not socializing or connecting openly at all. No one is “unconscious” after one or two glasses of wine lol
  - jahsome 3y ago
    Agree to disagree. Your fist statement is a rather disingenuous and a contrived, false premise. Further, this very OP links to a prominent drinker arguing the opposite of your other point.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
safety1st 3y ago
I think the response to this from Tolstoy's perspective is that by imbibing a drug which makes socializing easier, you're doing (1) or (2). E.g. your inner voice is telling you that you should be social, you're failing at it, so you drink to fulfill the demand of that voice, which is (1). Or maybe you drink to escape trauma which sounds a lot like (2). The point is really that all existence is filtered through the lens of the mind. This is related to the idea of solipsism, to which I think Tolstoy subscribed to some degree. I haven't studied any of that stuff since college though, maybe a philosophy PhD is lurking around HN...
gwd 3y ago
> "All human life, we may say, consists solely of these two activities: (1) bringing one’s activities into harmony with conscience, or (2) hiding from oneself the indications of conscience in order to be able to continue to live as before." I mean, you know what people also use to "hide from oneself the indications of conscience"? Reading long novels, like the ones Tolstoy wrote.
throw0101a 3y ago
> It's a drug that makes it easier to socialize, and socializing is very, very good for people. Except (some) people take in more alcohol than is necessary to accomplish that result. He's talking about stupefying, and refers to more than just alcohol: > What is the explanation of the fact that people use things that stupefy them: vodka, wine, beer, hashish, opium, tobacco, and other things less common: ether, morphia, fly-agaric, etc.? Does taking hashish and opium allow for easier socializing? Further: > The cause of the world-wide consumption of hashish, opium, wine, and tobacco, lies not in the taste, nor in any pleasure, recreation, or mirth they afford, but simply in man’s need to hide from himself the demands of conscience.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
YetAnotherNick 3y ago
I think that is intended by Tolstoy. He gives the following extreme example > A drunken man is ashamed of none of these things, and therefore if a man wishes to do something his conscience condemns he stupefies himself. Stupefies is a negative term because he is against alcohol but socialising is easier because of exact same reason. It removes the filter and we could do things which we are "ashamed" of, even if there is nothing to be ashamed of. e.g. I am ashamed of talking to stranger or discussing details of my life when sober.
voidmain0001 3y ago
To say that alcohol distills down to being able to socialize doesn’t fit. Socializing is not hard. Are you at a party? Approach people you don’t know the way you want to be approached. Wear a sincere smile, give some distance, give your name, ask them who they know at the party, respond with who you know. Most likely you will know the same people so chat about that. Say where you live then ask them where they live. Listen to their response. Ask them what they like about where they live. Ask what you should see if you visit their neighborhood. Ask what they think of the music. Listen to their response. Thank them for sharing their opinion. Be self deprecating. Let them talk and you add the odd comment. Alcohol is not required for that. All that’s required is to be sincerely interested in people.
- solumunus 3y ago
  Socialising is hard for many people, this is well known…
- ThePowerOfFuet 3y ago
  >Socializing is not hard. lol. >Are you at a party? Approach people you don’t know LOL. My man, if only you had a shred of an idea of how things really are for many people.
- garyrob 3y ago
  > To say that alcohol distills down to being able to socialize doesn’t fit. Socializing is not hard. Are you at a party? Approach people you don’t know the way you want to be approached. Wear a sincere smile, give some distance, give your name, ask them who they know at the party, respond with who you know. YMMV. If you have real social anxiety, the above is just about impossible. People who haven't experienced it just don't know. It's extremely difficult to understand if you haven't been there. Normal shyness is a different animal. It's sort of like depression. Although people may think you should just snap out of it, you can't. And alcohol definitely can help. Believe me, I know. My life was pretty much dominated by social anxiety in my college years and 20's. Gradually it's gotten much better. I never drank a lot, but in those social situations where my self-consciousness made it pretty much impossible to do as you suggest, having some alcohol really made a positive difference. (This was long ago, I'm 67 now.) I don't recommend using it that way if you also have any other characteristics that could turn you into an alcoholic, because it's possible you'll stop using it and it will start using you. It's dangerous. It can destroy your life. But for me, in specific situations when I needed some help in order to be less self-conscious and more out there, it did help. (Therapy pretty much didn't, for me, but in recent years, meditation does.)
nunyabid5655 3y ago
Great points and whereas many may begin drinking to aid in some way with social interactions there are many that drink for what I think is closer to the second part/activity of the quote, to hide, forget, ignore, avoid, etc., and often increase their consumption while isolating themselves. For the alcoholic, it's more about what Tolstoy was saying than about social lubrication
- caeril 3y ago
  > For the alcoholic Well, no. Alcoholism can start regardless of the reason you start drinking. There are plenty of "social lubricant" drinkers who became alcoholics because of the pernicious GABA regulation cycle. You might start drinking to have a better social life, but eventually you drink to cure the hangover, to cure the shakes, to cure the anxiety that alcohol withdrawal gives you. Then it's just a cyclical pattern of poisoning yourself to cure the effects of the last poisoning. When your addiction becomes physical, it doesn't matter why you started drinking in the first place. Now the only reason you drink is to function.

deafpolygon 3y ago

Socializing is not the point of alcohol. People use it for many other reasons, besides just to socialize. I would know.

lazyant 3y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantsdrunk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantsdrunk

stiglitz 3y ago

I enjoy drinking alone.

gfody 3y ago
you’re socializing with yourself
- NovaDudely 3y ago
  That is a really cool way of putting it. Disclaimer : Everything in moderation.
jibbit 3y ago
I think of it more as ‘quieting’ the mind - the internal monologue - this does help with socialising, and numbing bad feelings, but it’s still useful when neither of those things are relevant I.e. winding down after a full-on day. I socialise (and have bad thoughts) in the mornings too, but I dont want a drink then

meitham 3y ago

People are far more social in middle eastern countries where alcohol is banned.

wbobeirne 3y ago
Citation needed? How do you measure being far more social?
- meitham 3y ago
  I think it is a general observation ... I don't think there is a real measurements of happiness or socialability
Simon_O_Rourke 3y ago
I'm pretty sure, from an extended stint working out there, that folks in Saudi Arabia aren't exactly all social mix n'mingle types.
- meitham 3y ago
  I think there is a difference between a community socializing among themselves, and socialing with immigrant/tourists/foreigners. Qatar world cup is one example I think of where the barrier to socializing with *the others* was removed.
j-a-a-p 3y ago
I happen to work for a company that has banned alcohol for religious reasons. I would not say the company is particularly social, on the contrary. However, as an alcoholic[0] maybe I am blinded or excluded from the social nirvana of my non-alcoholic colleagues. edit: [0] I learned that irony not really works on a forum. I occasionally drink, but I am get up early enough to bring my kids to school.
thenoblesunfish 3y ago
Good point - why is that? How do they acheive it and what are the tradeoffs? An American example that comes to mind is the Mormons. Are they playing a lot of Mafia in the middle east? Hookah bars? Mosques?

sibeliuss 3y ago

I was as social as one could be while drunk and am as solitary as a hermit now that I'm sober. I miss the social life at times, but really, as Tolstoy remarks, it was just an escape from my true nature which I hadn't yet figured out. And what a mess that was. So yes, its a social thing, but is it good? It's something. There are other ways.

happyjack 3y ago
This comment really resonates with me. As someone who doesn't drink anymore, I've found how much of a hermit I am and how much I'm okay with that and how it's my true self. I really have few friends, and the ones I do I actually do activities with. My wife is the same way.
runeks 3y ago
> I was as social as one could be while drunk and am as solitary as a hermit now that I'm sober. Being drunk and consuming alcohol is not the same thing. I like to drink a couple of beers but not more than that.
- soco 3y ago
  I feel this is the same discussion as with veganism - anything that's not 100% pure it's getting called drunkard and berated for that. Meh.

Dalewyn 3y ago

Alcohol doesn't exist for socializing, though it does make socializing easier. Correlation does not equal causation. No, alcohol exists for a very simple reason: Clean and sanitary beverage. Lest we forget, alcohol is alcohol. It is by its very nature sanitary and safe to drink, which is why humanity has long consumed it. Safe and clean drinking water in abundance is a fairly modern phenomenon, and it's still only available in a small part of the world at large. Given that, alcohol satisfies both aforementioned activities. Producing and consuming alcohol is harmonious with conscience, that is the desire to "do right" both for yourself and your peers, because beverages that are safe to drink is critically important to yourself and everyone. It is also denying the brutal reality of the world we live in, that is to say we hide from our desire to "do right" because producing and consuming alcohol is easier than ensuring clean and safe drinking water while achieving the same practical goal. Alcohol obviously has its problems, but they are far better than ones incurred from drinking foul water.

kgwgk 3y ago
> No, alcohol exists for a very simple reason: Clean and sanitary beverage. That’s why distillation was developed: to separate alcohol from water via evaporation and condensation and get a super-clean and super-sanitary beverage - with as little water as possible.

jalapenos 3y ago

That's one big reason, but the other is numbing bad feelings, which I think is a more interesting field, especially since it often blurs into the social bit. Indeed, for the social aspect, everyone is already fully aware it's not needed, and that they can have fun socialization without it, because of their childhoods. I think the biggest reason alcohol is used is, to put it bluntly, how painful life is. As the child grows into an adult, and realizes the real nature of life and the world, baseline pain increases. And it's hard to be social when you're worried about things or down about things. But alcohol is a cheap, readily available blunt instrument against this pain. No matter how bad you feel, if you down a litre of booze, that pain will definitely, and quickly, stop.

hnick 3y ago
It's not just pain, it’s thoughts too (which can also be related of course). I’m someone who will overthink which leads to worries that don’t need to exist and bring no benefit. This is why it helps me socialise, I’m far more likely to talk myself out of it because of the perceived “risk”. Rate limiting my thoughts lets me just act.
jiggywiggy 3y ago
Live isnt very painful for me. Still enjoy a beer a bit too much. When I'm super happy and then have a beer it just adds to it. It also can help me relax if I'm working to much. One can argue it's not needed, but at times nice.
- moffkalast 3y ago
  I'm pretty sure Tolstoy isn't talking about a weekly beer, but the Russian type of alcoholism of downing an entire bottle of vodka every five minutes. See the wiki: > According to a 2011 report by the World Health Organization, annual per capita consumption of alcohol in Russia was about 15.76 litres of pure alcohol, the fourth-highest volume in Europe. > Alcoholism has been a problem throughout the country's history because drinking is a pervasive, socially acceptable behaviour in Russian society
  - 3y ago

soligern 3y ago

Maybe as a corollary. But the answer is really simple when you start out. It makes you feel good. Some of these answers feel like people are allergic to straightforward answers.

The_Colonel 3y ago

I believe the main reason people drink is for its euphoric, anxiolytic and relaxing effects. These are desirable on their own, but they are also very useful specifically for socializing.

dalbasal 3y ago

When text messaging started to take off in the 90s, adults didn't get it. Typing on a keypad sucks, and the phone already has a great communication app. It's called the phone, and if you call someone you can hear each other talk. What they didn't understand is that "I think you're cute. Wanna go on a date?" is much easier in text. That's why kids always passed notes in class. These things lubricate high friction social interactions... the kinds of things that people agonize over, regret, etc. You're right, this is alcohol's primary purpose. Most people stay here.

Cthulhu_ 3y ago
I mean first off, only a vocal minority of adults didn't get it; this is usually the case with advancements like this. The same generation you're talking about was also the generation that would write letters and keep diaries, in addition to phone calls. The generations before that didn't have phones would write letters or telegrams. TL;DR, text based communication wasn't a novel concept, but what changed was that it was short and instantaneous.

sorokod 3y ago

Mercy! Educating a Russian on reasons to get drunk!

Al-Khwarizmi 3y ago

That's one important reason, but there's another one that is even more neglected: it just... tastes good (for those of us who like it, of course). For example, as a 90 kg man, for me drinking a single 33cl bottle of beer has pretty much the same effect as drinking water, i.e., I don't feel anything at all (note that I don't drive, in that context it would probably still be relevant). So when I have a single beer with dinner, there is zero intention of socializing, stupefying myself or whatever. I just like the taste (and don't order alcohol-free beer, which is healthier, because I hate its taste). Similarly, having a red wine with a strong sheep milk cheese is an amazing experience, just because the tastes combine so well and enhance each other. If there were alcohol-free versions of the beverages that tasted the same, I'd probably use them most of the time (except in some social contexts). There is no such thing, though.

deafpolygon 3y ago
It tastes good because a) you like the carbonation (try drinking sparkling water), and b) your brain wants the alcohol, so it makes beers or anything resembling it taste good. > don't order alcohol-free beer, which is healthier, because I hate its taste
Steve44 3y ago
I love the wide variety of tastes you can get. Beers are getting there, but there is no alcohol free wine or spirit that comes close to the flavour carrying profile of decent drinks. I make quite a lot of cocktails and have some quite decent alcohol free ones in my repertoire, but compared to the alcoholic ones there are a very poor imitation.
reverendjames 3y ago
Bavaria brand non-alcoholic beer, pomegranate flavor. If you can find it, it's delicious. The regular flavor tastes more like beer but also tastes great.
medo-bear 3y ago
I think culture toward drinking is the determining factor. In my culture we are brought up around wine, heavy spirits, and beer. There is no such thing as comming of age by drinking yourself stupid as in UK, US or Australia for example. Intoxication is considered VERY bad form (embarassing). Usually when people feel they are becoming intoxicated they will excuse themselves and go home.

lotsofcows 3y ago

"makes it easier to socialize ... even though alcohol is bad in many ways" Isn't this justification you bring your activities into harmony with conscience?

jahsome 3y ago

> It's a drug that makes it easier to socialize But is unconscious socialization the same as conscious socialization? IMO all socialization is not equal. If you're "engaging" with people who are intoxicated themselves, while you are intoxicated, does that truly yield the same benefits as a genuine, no-barrier interaction? In my experience, no.

tyre 3y ago
That’s the wrong dichotomy. The options for some people are socializing while tipsy vs. not socializing or connecting openly at all. No one is “unconscious” after one or two glasses of wine lol
- jahsome 3y ago
  Agree to disagree. Your fist statement is a rather disingenuous and a contrived, false premise. Further, this very OP links to a prominent drinker arguing the opposite of your other point.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

safety1st 3y ago

I think the response to this from Tolstoy's perspective is that by imbibing a drug which makes socializing easier, you're doing (1) or (2). E.g. your inner voice is telling you that you should be social, you're failing at it, so you drink to fulfill the demand of that voice, which is (1). Or maybe you drink to escape trauma which sounds a lot like (2). The point is really that all existence is filtered through the lens of the mind. This is related to the idea of solipsism, to which I think Tolstoy subscribed to some degree. I haven't studied any of that stuff since college though, maybe a philosophy PhD is lurking around HN...

gwd 3y ago

> "All human life, we may say, consists solely of these two activities: (1) bringing one’s activities into harmony with conscience, or (2) hiding from oneself the indications of conscience in order to be able to continue to live as before." I mean, you know what people also use to "hide from oneself the indications of conscience"? Reading long novels, like the ones Tolstoy wrote.

throw0101a 3y ago

> It's a drug that makes it easier to socialize, and socializing is very, very good for people. Except (some) people take in more alcohol than is necessary to accomplish that result. He's talking about stupefying, and refers to more than just alcohol: > What is the explanation of the fact that people use things that stupefy them: vodka, wine, beer, hashish, opium, tobacco, and other things less common: ether, morphia, fly-agaric, etc.? Does taking hashish and opium allow for easier socializing? Further: > The cause of the world-wide consumption of hashish, opium, wine, and tobacco, lies not in the taste, nor in any pleasure, recreation, or mirth they afford, but simply in man’s need to hide from himself the demands of conscience.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

YetAnotherNick 3y ago

I think that is intended by Tolstoy. He gives the following extreme example > A drunken man is ashamed of none of these things, and therefore if a man wishes to do something his conscience condemns he stupefies himself. Stupefies is a negative term because he is against alcohol but socialising is easier because of exact same reason. It removes the filter and we could do things which we are "ashamed" of, even if there is nothing to be ashamed of. e.g. I am ashamed of talking to stranger or discussing details of my life when sober.

voidmain0001 3y ago

To say that alcohol distills down to being able to socialize doesn’t fit. Socializing is not hard. Are you at a party? Approach people you don’t know the way you want to be approached. Wear a sincere smile, give some distance, give your name, ask them who they know at the party, respond with who you know. Most likely you will know the same people so chat about that. Say where you live then ask them where they live. Listen to their response. Ask them what they like about where they live. Ask what you should see if you visit their neighborhood. Ask what they think of the music. Listen to their response. Thank them for sharing their opinion. Be self deprecating. Let them talk and you add the odd comment. Alcohol is not required for that. All that’s required is to be sincerely interested in people.

solumunus 3y ago
Socialising is hard for many people, this is well known…
ThePowerOfFuet 3y ago
>Socializing is not hard. lol. >Are you at a party? Approach people you don’t know LOL. My man, if only you had a shred of an idea of how things really are for many people.
garyrob 3y ago
> To say that alcohol distills down to being able to socialize doesn’t fit. Socializing is not hard. Are you at a party? Approach people you don’t know the way you want to be approached. Wear a sincere smile, give some distance, give your name, ask them who they know at the party, respond with who you know. YMMV. If you have real social anxiety, the above is just about impossible. People who haven't experienced it just don't know. It's extremely difficult to understand if you haven't been there. Normal shyness is a different animal. It's sort of like depression. Although people may think you should just snap out of it, you can't. And alcohol definitely can help. Believe me, I know. My life was pretty much dominated by social anxiety in my college years and 20's. Gradually it's gotten much better. I never drank a lot, but in those social situations where my self-consciousness made it pretty much impossible to do as you suggest, having some alcohol really made a positive difference. (This was long ago, I'm 67 now.) I don't recommend using it that way if you also have any other characteristics that could turn you into an alcoholic, because it's possible you'll stop using it and it will start using you. It's dangerous. It can destroy your life. But for me, in specific situations when I needed some help in order to be less self-conscious and more out there, it did help. (Therapy pretty much didn't, for me, but in recent years, meditation does.)

nunyabid5655 3y ago

Great points and whereas many may begin drinking to aid in some way with social interactions there are many that drink for what I think is closer to the second part/activity of the quote, to hide, forget, ignore, avoid, etc., and often increase their consumption while isolating themselves. For the alcoholic, it's more about what Tolstoy was saying than about social lubrication

caeril 3y ago
> For the alcoholic Well, no. Alcoholism can start regardless of the reason you start drinking. There are plenty of "social lubricant" drinkers who became alcoholics because of the pernicious GABA regulation cycle. You might start drinking to have a better social life, but eventually you drink to cure the hangover, to cure the shakes, to cure the anxiety that alcohol withdrawal gives you. Then it's just a cyclical pattern of poisoning yourself to cure the effects of the last poisoning. When your addiction becomes physical, it doesn't matter why you started drinking in the first place. Now the only reason you drink is to function.