6 ms·

It feels to me more and more like you need to be rich to afford living without bartering away your personal information. I'm getting to be middle aged now, and

It feels to me more and more like you need to be rich to afford living without bartering away your personal information. I'm getting to be middle aged now, and have noticed a fatalistic attitude towards this by gen Z; kind of "it's impossible to maintain privacy, so I might as well milk my loss of privacy for all it's worth." And I'm wondering now if that's not completely correct.

Casteil 3y ago
Frankly, it's exhausting to try keep your life private. The sheer number of different ways your privacy can be violated via modern cars, phones, computers, social media, surveillance/facial recognition, IoT devices (including 'smart' TVs), etc. is quite staggering. Definitely seems like a losing battle. My retirement plan is a remote cabin in the woods.
- eptcyka 3y ago
  Not only exhausting, it's also damaging one's social life, since preserving privacy is often making one the odd one out.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
javajosh 3y ago
It may appear that way, but even privacy-for-profit schemes are illusory. The devices still send the data, it is still collated. Eventually this will effect the elites personally and negatively, someone will slip up with their parallel construction, and then we'll see real change in the US. Sadly, not before then.
renewiltord 3y ago
No you can just get a cheaper car. You can get one for like $5k and the insurance won't be a lot. Just get minimums.
- aidenn0 3y ago
  Do cheaper cars really lead to lower liability premiums?
  - renewiltord 3y ago
    No, you have to pay those anyway. But it will lower the total spend and so you'll have money available to pay them. You don't have to be rich or anything. I live in San Francisco, and insurance for my Subaru Forester costs me $1.2k/yr and I have comprehensive coverage. So if someone were to buy a $10k car and instead chose a $5k car, it'll be as if insurance were cut to $700/year for the next 10 years! If you value your privacy, that's a solution.
    - louthy 3y ago
      > I live in San Francisco, and insurance for my Subaru Forester costs me $1.2k/yr and I have comprehensive coverage Wow, that’s crazy high. In the UK my Porsche 911 (992) is cheaper to insure than that! (Without an insurance tracker) Anyone know if US insurance generally much higher (than other comparative nations)? Or is SF an anomaly?
      - lotsofpulp 3y ago
        Car insurance is partly based on the distances you travel with the car, and the area. The US is bigger than the UK, so on average, that component of the insurance price should be higher in the US.
      - aidenn0 3y ago
        I have comprehensive insurance for my car and it's about $850/yr. I'm also in California, but not near SF.
      - renewiltord 3y ago
        About $868 of that is for "Comprehensive" and "Collision" coverage, if it helps. It's possible it's just me, though. I've crashed my car once, and been hit on my motorcycle. In general, given that, I would assume it's more because of that than in general since I'm obviously a high risk driver. When I set my address from San Jose to San Francisco (I used to store the car at my friend's) it went up $200/yr so that's the SF premium for Geico at least. How much do you pay?
rkagerer 3y ago
Even if you're rich it's difficult.
Hermitian909 3y ago
It's true, and it's not great, but I think the flip side of this is that as I get older I find myself increasingly paying for the anti-social behavior of others. There are lot of nice customer service things that are only possible if people don't abuse them: solid warranty/return programs, high quality phone reps, etc. But you need people who adhere to the social contract, the kind of people who don't, say, buy a $3,000 TV for a single super bowl party and then return it. I actually desperately want some way to tell many of these companies "I am a responsible human being who respects social contracts" - all solutions I can think of violate my privacy but we'll find out what's worse...
- don-code 3y ago
  Is respect for social contracts really all that's necessary? I don't see it as adversarial, so much as I see it as "normal _and_..." for many vendors. For instance, even if I could buy a TV and then return it for free, why not return it and charge a fee? Most people are willing to pay the fee, even if they wouldn't return it, so what's the incentive for any vendor to not charge the fee?
  - ghaff 3y ago
    Because they really don't like the TV for some reason/ Or an expensive purchase that should last for years falls apart after 9 months? Leaches who have made many companies cut back on generous return policies with "my ten year old coat is worn out, replace it" are basically turds who make life worse for other people. ADDED: Furthermore, research has has shown (e.g late pickups at daycare) that when you add a fee to an anti-social behavior it can actually make the behavior more likely because it's now a transactional activity.
    - Gordonjcp 3y ago
      > (e.g late pickups at daycare) I've often wondered how well it would work if you went "right well, if you pick them up 15 minutes late today, you've got to pick them up 15 minutes early tomorrow", or "... drop them off 15 minutes late tomorrow".
RajT88 3y ago
I think for the most part, you can't really monetize your own data. You can just trade it away for "free" services. Unless I've missed something... Sidebar: The government is buying all your data from data brokers. We should all collectively submit FOIA requests to get copies of it, to create an undue burden on them doing so. Maybe they'll scale it back.
yieldcrv 3y ago
think of it more like the Hunger Games and all behaviors are explained
NotYourLawyer 3y ago
I’m reasonably rich and would pay good money not to be tracked. It’s not really an option.
- hysan 3y ago
  I’ve started seeing ads for companies that try to get your data removed from sites and data broker.[1] I don’t know how effective they are but we’ve reached an age where there is a clear market for privacy. That feels very dystopian. [1] https://incogni.com/ https://incogni.com/
  - NotYourLawyer 3y ago
    I’ve heard of this one too. I’m too cynical to believe it’s legit though.
  - GrinningFool 3y ago
    ... which on its home page tracks to google analytics, tag manager, and the payment services provider paddle.
abhayhegde 3y ago
I hate how true this is! A case in point is also apps like Ibotta or Fetch which reward you based on your shopping data. Sell your shopping patterns, earn money! Rich can protect their privacy.
- topposter32 3y ago
  You are also describing credit cards. That's the trade you made to get a 1-2% reward.
- marvin 3y ago
  It makes sense that one's privacy is a valuable asset one can sell.
WirelessGigabit 3y ago
Even if you were to pay the fee or drive a gas car, or you pay for the 'better' insurance to not be tracked, your movements are still recorded everywhere with ALPR cameras.
- uoaei 3y ago
  If not your car itself.
vGPU 3y ago
But at the same time, I feel like this creates opportunities for enterprising individuals. How hard could it be to feed fake data into said dongle and enjoy the lower cost? Of course, I’d much rather prefer that stuff like this didn’t exist to start with. The older I get the less patience I have for messing with this junk. All of my cars are now idiot-cars thanks to the death of 3g, and I pull antennas and SIM cards ever since the onstar eavesdropping scandal.
- NoraCodes 3y ago
  > How hard could it be to feed fake data into said dongle and enjoy the lower cost? Wouldn't that be fraud?
- helsinkiandrew 3y ago
  > How hard could it be to feed fake data into said dongle and enjoy the lower cost? A lot of the monitors for older cars (that don't have 'tracking' built in) just plug into the cars OBD2 port and the CAN bus data - and is extremely hackable by anyone thats used an Arduino. It would be much harder to interfere if the monitor is wired in or using its own GPS to monitor speed and distance travelled though. https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2015/01/15/researcher-says-progressive-insurance-dongle-totally-insecure/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2015/01/15/resea...
- astura 3y ago
  Insurance fraud is a crime. Not only that, but insurance companies don't cover claims when the policy was obtained by fraud.
ssss11 3y ago
I think the people who say “the public doesn’t care about privacy” are either completely ignoring the fact that most people will give it up if it means the product is cheaper (because, financial survival) or they are deliberately pushing the agenda.
bmj 3y ago
My auto insurance provider (in the US) has never even offered such a tracking program to me (and I know my current rates are pretty reasonable/in line with other companies). Maybe it's because of my history with the provider (I'm 50 and they've been covering me since I was 16)?
hospitalJail 3y ago
And if you are rich, you don't actually get privacy, just the illusion of it. I have dumb electronics that are way less intrusive than their luxury versions.

Casteil 3y ago

Frankly, it's exhausting to try keep your life private. The sheer number of different ways your privacy can be violated via modern cars, phones, computers, social media, surveillance/facial recognition, IoT devices (including 'smart' TVs), etc. is quite staggering. Definitely seems like a losing battle. My retirement plan is a remote cabin in the woods.

eptcyka 3y ago
Not only exhausting, it's also damaging one's social life, since preserving privacy is often making one the odd one out.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

javajosh 3y ago

It may appear that way, but even privacy-for-profit schemes are illusory. The devices still send the data, it is still collated. Eventually this will effect the elites personally and negatively, someone will slip up with their parallel construction, and then we'll see real change in the US. Sadly, not before then.

renewiltord 3y ago

No you can just get a cheaper car. You can get one for like $5k and the insurance won't be a lot. Just get minimums.

aidenn0 3y ago
Do cheaper cars really lead to lower liability premiums?
- renewiltord 3y ago
  No, you have to pay those anyway. But it will lower the total spend and so you'll have money available to pay them. You don't have to be rich or anything. I live in San Francisco, and insurance for my Subaru Forester costs me $1.2k/yr and I have comprehensive coverage. So if someone were to buy a $10k car and instead chose a $5k car, it'll be as if insurance were cut to $700/year for the next 10 years! If you value your privacy, that's a solution.
  - louthy 3y ago
    > I live in San Francisco, and insurance for my Subaru Forester costs me $1.2k/yr and I have comprehensive coverage Wow, that’s crazy high. In the UK my Porsche 911 (992) is cheaper to insure than that! (Without an insurance tracker) Anyone know if US insurance generally much higher (than other comparative nations)? Or is SF an anomaly?
    - lotsofpulp 3y ago
      Car insurance is partly based on the distances you travel with the car, and the area. The US is bigger than the UK, so on average, that component of the insurance price should be higher in the US.
    - aidenn0 3y ago
      I have comprehensive insurance for my car and it's about $850/yr. I'm also in California, but not near SF.
    - renewiltord 3y ago
      About $868 of that is for "Comprehensive" and "Collision" coverage, if it helps. It's possible it's just me, though. I've crashed my car once, and been hit on my motorcycle. In general, given that, I would assume it's more because of that than in general since I'm obviously a high risk driver. When I set my address from San Jose to San Francisco (I used to store the car at my friend's) it went up $200/yr so that's the SF premium for Geico at least. How much do you pay?

rkagerer 3y ago

Even if you're rich it's difficult.

Hermitian909 3y ago

It's true, and it's not great, but I think the flip side of this is that as I get older I find myself increasingly paying for the anti-social behavior of others. There are lot of nice customer service things that are only possible if people don't abuse them: solid warranty/return programs, high quality phone reps, etc. But you need people who adhere to the social contract, the kind of people who don't, say, buy a $3,000 TV for a single super bowl party and then return it. I actually desperately want some way to tell many of these companies "I am a responsible human being who respects social contracts" - all solutions I can think of violate my privacy but we'll find out what's worse...

don-code 3y ago
Is respect for social contracts really all that's necessary? I don't see it as adversarial, so much as I see it as "normal _and_..." for many vendors. For instance, even if I could buy a TV and then return it for free, why not return it and charge a fee? Most people are willing to pay the fee, even if they wouldn't return it, so what's the incentive for any vendor to not charge the fee?
- ghaff 3y ago
  Because they really don't like the TV for some reason/ Or an expensive purchase that should last for years falls apart after 9 months? Leaches who have made many companies cut back on generous return policies with "my ten year old coat is worn out, replace it" are basically turds who make life worse for other people. ADDED: Furthermore, research has has shown (e.g late pickups at daycare) that when you add a fee to an anti-social behavior it can actually make the behavior more likely because it's now a transactional activity.
  - Gordonjcp 3y ago
    > (e.g late pickups at daycare) I've often wondered how well it would work if you went "right well, if you pick them up 15 minutes late today, you've got to pick them up 15 minutes early tomorrow", or "... drop them off 15 minutes late tomorrow".

RajT88 3y ago

I think for the most part, you can't really monetize your own data. You can just trade it away for "free" services. Unless I've missed something... Sidebar: The government is buying all your data from data brokers. We should all collectively submit FOIA requests to get copies of it, to create an undue burden on them doing so. Maybe they'll scale it back.

yieldcrv 3y ago

think of it more like the Hunger Games and all behaviors are explained

NotYourLawyer 3y ago

I’m reasonably rich and would pay good money not to be tracked. It’s not really an option.

hysan 3y ago
I’ve started seeing ads for companies that try to get your data removed from sites and data broker.[1] I don’t know how effective they are but we’ve reached an age where there is a clear market for privacy. That feels very dystopian. [1] https://incogni.com/ https://incogni.com/
- NotYourLawyer 3y ago
  I’ve heard of this one too. I’m too cynical to believe it’s legit though.
- GrinningFool 3y ago
  ... which on its home page tracks to google analytics, tag manager, and the payment services provider paddle.

abhayhegde 3y ago

I hate how true this is! A case in point is also apps like Ibotta or Fetch which reward you based on your shopping data. Sell your shopping patterns, earn money! Rich can protect their privacy.

topposter32 3y ago
You are also describing credit cards. That's the trade you made to get a 1-2% reward.
marvin 3y ago
It makes sense that one's privacy is a valuable asset one can sell.

WirelessGigabit 3y ago

Even if you were to pay the fee or drive a gas car, or you pay for the 'better' insurance to not be tracked, your movements are still recorded everywhere with ALPR cameras.

uoaei 3y ago
If not your car itself.

vGPU 3y ago

But at the same time, I feel like this creates opportunities for enterprising individuals. How hard could it be to feed fake data into said dongle and enjoy the lower cost? Of course, I’d much rather prefer that stuff like this didn’t exist to start with. The older I get the less patience I have for messing with this junk. All of my cars are now idiot-cars thanks to the death of 3g, and I pull antennas and SIM cards ever since the onstar eavesdropping scandal.

NoraCodes 3y ago
> How hard could it be to feed fake data into said dongle and enjoy the lower cost? Wouldn't that be fraud?
helsinkiandrew 3y ago
> How hard could it be to feed fake data into said dongle and enjoy the lower cost? A lot of the monitors for older cars (that don't have 'tracking' built in) just plug into the cars OBD2 port and the CAN bus data - and is extremely hackable by anyone thats used an Arduino. It would be much harder to interfere if the monitor is wired in or using its own GPS to monitor speed and distance travelled though. https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2015/01/15/researcher-says-progressive-insurance-dongle-totally-insecure/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/thomasbrewster/2015/01/15/resea...
astura 3y ago
Insurance fraud is a crime. Not only that, but insurance companies don't cover claims when the policy was obtained by fraud.

ssss11 3y ago

I think the people who say “the public doesn’t care about privacy” are either completely ignoring the fact that most people will give it up if it means the product is cheaper (because, financial survival) or they are deliberately pushing the agenda.

bmj 3y ago

My auto insurance provider (in the US) has never even offered such a tracking program to me (and I know my current rates are pretty reasonable/in line with other companies). Maybe it's because of my history with the provider (I'm 50 and they've been covering me since I was 16)?

hospitalJail 3y ago

And if you are rich, you don't actually get privacy, just the illusion of it. I have dumb electronics that are way less intrusive than their luxury versions.