7 ms·

This does not track for me at all. I'm sorry but why would anybody in the DOD have an incentive to "make Americans believe in US military and intelligence super

This does not track for me at all. I'm sorry but why would anybody in the DOD have an incentive to "make Americans believe in US military and intelligence superiority"?

sokoloff 3y ago
To keep Americans happy about the over 3/4 Trillion dollars we spend on defense every year? “You spend a lot, but you get the best!” sounds a lot better than “You spend a lot, but we still suck!”
- echelon 3y ago
  > “You spend a lot, but you get the best!” sounds a lot better than “You spend a lot, but we still suck!” This argument doesn't make any sense. The US military is better than the next top three militaries combined. The Ukraine war is showing the superiority of decades old Western tech.
  - sokoloff 3y ago
    That doesn’t stop the DoD from wanting Americans to know that fact, because that’s how they’re funded.
  - heavyset_go 3y ago
    It can show that the best still isn't good enough for some scenarios, including this scenario where unmanned aircraft are entering US airspace unimpeded. The US military might be better than the rest, but they were still defeated by poor people in the desert with some Casio watches and decades' old AKs. Similarly, it seems that small drones are another potential avenue of exploitation in asymmetric warfare.
  - CapricornNoble 3y ago
    > The US military is better than the next top three militaries combined. Partially due to institutional experience and economies of scale (for certain capabilities). We probably still exceed what the next top 3 powers (China, Russia, India, BTW) are spending in PPP terms, so it shouldn't be that surprising. > The Ukraine war is showing the superiority of decades old Western tech. For every video of HIMARS blowing up a Russian ammo depot, there's a video of Ka-52 helicopters popping M2 Bradleys from 5+ km away.[1] M777s were lauded for their accuracy....until they broke. [2] Ukrainian brigades have been lavishly equipped with Western armored vehicles and they've bounced off a brick wall of positively-ancient minefields and artillery, very similar to the defense-in-depth that the Soviets used to defeat the Germans at Kursk ...in 1943.[3] This conflict is so complex in terms of difficult-to-measure soft factors that are influencing the battlefield (training, maintenance, corruption, NATO ISR support, information operations/propaganda, etc.), that drawing conclusions about the merits of individual technical systems or especially the overall tech base of the two main powers (Russia vs "the West") as a whole is....unwise. [1]https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/ukraines-armor-appears-to-have-a-russian-attack-helicopter-problem https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/ukraines-armor-appears... [2]https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/25/us/ukraine-artillery-breakdown.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/25/us/ukraine-artillery-brea... [3]https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/26/world/europe/ukraine-counteroffensive.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/26/world/europe/ukraine-coun...
  - themagician 3y ago
    The war in Ukraine is showing that the "superpowers" aren't so super. It's showing just how much of the military superiority is propaganda and nothing more. But we already knew that, because the US just went through what Russia is now going through. The US just lost a 20 year war in Afghanistan against cave dwellers with Soviet-era rifles, homemade explosives and random bits from the bottom of a toolbox. You'd think maybe they'd have busted out the ray guns or spaceships instead of taking the L.
    - _kbh_ 3y ago
      > The US just lost a 20 year war in Afghanistan against cave dwellers with Soviet-era rifles, homemade explosives and random bits from the bottom of a toolbox. To be fair the US left Afghanistan and the remaining Afghani army crumbled to the taliban pretty quickly. I’d say the two situations are very different, the US successfully occupied a country that was ~7000km from them. The Russians have so far failed to take a city that’s ~200km from their own border in about 1 and a half years.
      - themagician 3y ago
        To be even more fair, the US lost the War in Afghanistan. It's an unambiguous Taliban victory. That's how it will read in every history book that doesn't have an American flag and a bald eagle on it. 20 years there and all the US did was create a whole new generation of terrorists who will spend the rest of their lives seeking revenge.
        Dylan16807 3y ago
        We lost, but it wasn't a military loss, it was a catastrophic failure of diplomacy. We had control for a long time.
        themagician 3y ago
        It was a military loss. When one military quits and runs away really fast that’s a loss. And it’s not the first time. When the US loses they hold a parade and say, “We left.” Such a joke. And American citizens never hold their government accountable. Instead they just believe the BS and do it all over again. Kind of amazing, really. No shame.
heavyset_go 3y ago
Because one of the purposes of flying surveillance aircraft in US airspace is psychological warfare. It sends the message that China/Russia/whoever can send whatever they want into US airspace and there's nothing that anyone, including the military, can do about it. It sows fear, uncertainty and doubt in both the public and even members of the military who can recognize the advanced capabilities of the armies they might have to fight. It sends the message that you are not safe at home, and those who are supposed to protect you can't. However, if people think they're aliens, that instead turns psychological warfare on its head and into something that inspires awe, wonder and possibility. No one is scared in the ways adversaries want them to be scared, and no one doubts the government is actually capable of handling threats from adversaries. "Aliens" as an explanation quells the potential for panic, versus adversaries successfully inducing the panic responses they desire. It also gives the opportunity for those who care too much about this to be painted as quacks.
- nradov 3y ago
  I don't understand your comment. Russia has no real capability to fly surveillance aircraft over US territory. They can barely manage to fly to Syria without breaking down.
  - heavyset_go 3y ago
    I said: > China/Russia/whoever As a placeholder for potential US adversaries who might have the motivation do something like this. If you don't like that I said Russia, ignore it and fill it in with China.
    - nradov 3y ago
      Come on, be serious. China can't even get the metallurgy right on turbine engines. Never mind flying saucers. If they are doing any airborne surveillance over the US homeland then it's either with spy balloons, or cheap little short-range drones launched by agents on the ground. https://www.airandspaceforces.com/china-air-force-may-take-a-hit-due-to-dependence-on-russian-aircraft-engines/ https://www.airandspaceforces.com/china-air-force-may-take-a...
themagician 3y ago
So many reasons. If you want unlimited funding, if you want people to join, if you want citizens to feel safe… you really want them to feel like the government is powerful. If people think their government is a joke they will treat it as a joke. You don't want people thinking that a dozen people with box cutters can fly planes into buildings. You don't want people thinking that "the greatest superpower in the world" can't defeat literal cave dwellers with ancient soviet era weaponry. You don't want people to know that China's military is much more advanced than the public is aware and they are routinely flying over US airspace undetected. You want people to feel safe and pay their taxes. You want your citizens to believe that the $2 trillion spend on defense every year goes to good use, creating the kind of military and intelligence apparatus that Hollywood portrays. We fund these types of propaganda campaigns for the same reasons we have military parades and air shows. We saw how well these kinds of "overwhelmingly powerful" government myths worked for both the Soviets and Axis powers in WW2 and we copied it. Every government chasing power and status wants its citizens to feel like they are the most powerful. China and Russia have similar kinds of myths. But you don't have to take my word for it. Please, continue to believe that spaceships from other planets have crashed and some elite division within the US government managed to retrieve them and keep it secret for 50+ years. Look past the failing state of our infrastructure and continue to believe that an alien species capable of interstellar travel is interested specifically in Americans, but "they" are keeping you from knowing the truth!
- mustacheemperor 3y ago
  There's a vast gulf between "believing that spaceships from other planets have crashed and some elite division..." and subscribing to your theory which is so far only supported by you insisting to us what "you want" as a theoretical deep state government apparatus. From my perspective, it would seem like the widespread belief that terrorists could crash planes into buildings resulted in a lot of public money, enlistment, and support flowing into the US Military over the early 2000s. You're presenting a false choice between two conspiracy theories as the only ways to view this situation, which certainly doesn't make your particular conspiracy theory look any more credible.
  - 3y ago
red-iron-pine 3y ago
> This does not track for me at all. I'm sorry but why would anybody in the DOD have an incentive to "make Americans believe in US military and intelligence superiority"? Especially when NATO hasn't fired a shot in Ukraine, but is supplying real-time intelligence to the AFU. US cold war era surplus + EW helped break an entire Russian army, and may yet break a second.

This does not track for me at all. I'm sorry but why would anybody in the DOD have an incentive to "make Americans believe in US military and intelligence superiority"?

sokoloff 3y ago

To keep Americans happy about the over 3/4 Trillion dollars we spend on defense every year? “You spend a lot, but you get the best!” sounds a lot better than “You spend a lot, but we still suck!”

echelon 3y ago
> “You spend a lot, but you get the best!” sounds a lot better than “You spend a lot, but we still suck!” This argument doesn't make any sense. The US military is better than the next top three militaries combined. The Ukraine war is showing the superiority of decades old Western tech.
- sokoloff 3y ago
  That doesn’t stop the DoD from wanting Americans to know that fact, because that’s how they’re funded.
- heavyset_go 3y ago
  It can show that the best still isn't good enough for some scenarios, including this scenario where unmanned aircraft are entering US airspace unimpeded. The US military might be better than the rest, but they were still defeated by poor people in the desert with some Casio watches and decades' old AKs. Similarly, it seems that small drones are another potential avenue of exploitation in asymmetric warfare.
- CapricornNoble 3y ago
  > The US military is better than the next top three militaries combined. Partially due to institutional experience and economies of scale (for certain capabilities). We probably still exceed what the next top 3 powers (China, Russia, India, BTW) are spending in PPP terms, so it shouldn't be that surprising. > The Ukraine war is showing the superiority of decades old Western tech. For every video of HIMARS blowing up a Russian ammo depot, there's a video of Ka-52 helicopters popping M2 Bradleys from 5+ km away.[1] M777s were lauded for their accuracy....until they broke. [2] Ukrainian brigades have been lavishly equipped with Western armored vehicles and they've bounced off a brick wall of positively-ancient minefields and artillery, very similar to the defense-in-depth that the Soviets used to defeat the Germans at Kursk ...in 1943.[3] This conflict is so complex in terms of difficult-to-measure soft factors that are influencing the battlefield (training, maintenance, corruption, NATO ISR support, information operations/propaganda, etc.), that drawing conclusions about the merits of individual technical systems or especially the overall tech base of the two main powers (Russia vs "the West") as a whole is....unwise. [1]https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/ukraines-armor-appears-to-have-a-russian-attack-helicopter-problem https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/ukraines-armor-appears... [2]https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/25/us/ukraine-artillery-breakdown.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/25/us/ukraine-artillery-brea... [3]https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/26/world/europe/ukraine-counteroffensive.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/26/world/europe/ukraine-coun...
- themagician 3y ago
  The war in Ukraine is showing that the "superpowers" aren't so super. It's showing just how much of the military superiority is propaganda and nothing more. But we already knew that, because the US just went through what Russia is now going through. The US just lost a 20 year war in Afghanistan against cave dwellers with Soviet-era rifles, homemade explosives and random bits from the bottom of a toolbox. You'd think maybe they'd have busted out the ray guns or spaceships instead of taking the L.
  - _kbh_ 3y ago
    > The US just lost a 20 year war in Afghanistan against cave dwellers with Soviet-era rifles, homemade explosives and random bits from the bottom of a toolbox. To be fair the US left Afghanistan and the remaining Afghani army crumbled to the taliban pretty quickly. I’d say the two situations are very different, the US successfully occupied a country that was ~7000km from them. The Russians have so far failed to take a city that’s ~200km from their own border in about 1 and a half years.
    - themagician 3y ago
      To be even more fair, the US lost the War in Afghanistan. It's an unambiguous Taliban victory. That's how it will read in every history book that doesn't have an American flag and a bald eagle on it. 20 years there and all the US did was create a whole new generation of terrorists who will spend the rest of their lives seeking revenge.
      - Dylan16807 3y ago
        We lost, but it wasn't a military loss, it was a catastrophic failure of diplomacy. We had control for a long time.
        themagician 3y ago
        It was a military loss. When one military quits and runs away really fast that’s a loss. And it’s not the first time. When the US loses they hold a parade and say, “We left.” Such a joke. And American citizens never hold their government accountable. Instead they just believe the BS and do it all over again. Kind of amazing, really. No shame.

heavyset_go 3y ago

Because one of the purposes of flying surveillance aircraft in US airspace is psychological warfare. It sends the message that China/Russia/whoever can send whatever they want into US airspace and there's nothing that anyone, including the military, can do about it. It sows fear, uncertainty and doubt in both the public and even members of the military who can recognize the advanced capabilities of the armies they might have to fight. It sends the message that you are not safe at home, and those who are supposed to protect you can't. However, if people think they're aliens, that instead turns psychological warfare on its head and into something that inspires awe, wonder and possibility. No one is scared in the ways adversaries want them to be scared, and no one doubts the government is actually capable of handling threats from adversaries. "Aliens" as an explanation quells the potential for panic, versus adversaries successfully inducing the panic responses they desire. It also gives the opportunity for those who care too much about this to be painted as quacks.

nradov 3y ago
I don't understand your comment. Russia has no real capability to fly surveillance aircraft over US territory. They can barely manage to fly to Syria without breaking down.
- heavyset_go 3y ago
  I said: > China/Russia/whoever As a placeholder for potential US adversaries who might have the motivation do something like this. If you don't like that I said Russia, ignore it and fill it in with China.
  - nradov 3y ago
    Come on, be serious. China can't even get the metallurgy right on turbine engines. Never mind flying saucers. If they are doing any airborne surveillance over the US homeland then it's either with spy balloons, or cheap little short-range drones launched by agents on the ground. https://www.airandspaceforces.com/china-air-force-may-take-a-hit-due-to-dependence-on-russian-aircraft-engines/ https://www.airandspaceforces.com/china-air-force-may-take-a...

themagician 3y ago

So many reasons. If you want unlimited funding, if you want people to join, if you want citizens to feel safe… you really want them to feel like the government is powerful. If people think their government is a joke they will treat it as a joke. You don't want people thinking that a dozen people with box cutters can fly planes into buildings. You don't want people thinking that "the greatest superpower in the world" can't defeat literal cave dwellers with ancient soviet era weaponry. You don't want people to know that China's military is much more advanced than the public is aware and they are routinely flying over US airspace undetected. You want people to feel safe and pay their taxes. You want your citizens to believe that the $2 trillion spend on defense every year goes to good use, creating the kind of military and intelligence apparatus that Hollywood portrays. We fund these types of propaganda campaigns for the same reasons we have military parades and air shows. We saw how well these kinds of "overwhelmingly powerful" government myths worked for both the Soviets and Axis powers in WW2 and we copied it. Every government chasing power and status wants its citizens to feel like they are the most powerful. China and Russia have similar kinds of myths. But you don't have to take my word for it. Please, continue to believe that spaceships from other planets have crashed and some elite division within the US government managed to retrieve them and keep it secret for 50+ years. Look past the failing state of our infrastructure and continue to believe that an alien species capable of interstellar travel is interested specifically in Americans, but "they" are keeping you from knowing the truth!

mustacheemperor 3y ago
There's a vast gulf between "believing that spaceships from other planets have crashed and some elite division..." and subscribing to your theory which is so far only supported by you insisting to us what "you want" as a theoretical deep state government apparatus. From my perspective, it would seem like the widespread belief that terrorists could crash planes into buildings resulted in a lot of public money, enlistment, and support flowing into the US Military over the early 2000s. You're presenting a false choice between two conspiracy theories as the only ways to view this situation, which certainly doesn't make your particular conspiracy theory look any more credible.
- 3y ago

red-iron-pine 3y ago

> This does not track for me at all. I'm sorry but why would anybody in the DOD have an incentive to "make Americans believe in US military and intelligence superiority"? Especially when NATO hasn't fired a shot in Ukraine, but is supplying real-time intelligence to the AFU. US cold war era surplus + EW helped break an entire Russian army, and may yet break a second.