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One of my biggest culture shocks in moving from Ireland to the Netherlands is around the usage of bars as social spaces. At home I thought of bars primarily as

One of my biggest culture shocks in moving from Ireland to the Netherlands is around the usage of bars as social spaces. At home I thought of bars primarily as a place to meet new people. I'd head down about once a week alone, with just my newspaper and a free afternoon, and generally end up chatting with someone about the news until we headed out for dinner together. Even if I went out with friends I'd always expect to mix with another group or pick up someone who had been alone, then end the night partying further at the house of some strangers. When I arrived in the NL I had assumed this was a universal thing, but quickly found myself being told off by strangers when I tried starting conversations, as they were "just out for a quiet drink." This was very alien to me, though I quickly became accustomed to it and no longer go to bars except for drinks with colleagues after work, or when I'm in another city and visit the Irish pub for a sense of the old days that never quite materialises. After a while I wondered if it was simply that I was getting older, but I recently visited home for the first time since before Covid. I went for a walk while visiting my mother and decided to stop for a quick Guinness while reading my book. I wasn't on the second page when a passing woman stopped to ask me what I was reading. I explained it was in Dutch and we had a whole conversation about her brother working in Amsterdam. I couldn't believe it! These experiences continued for the entire week. I guess to bring it back to the article, the best bar in town is very culture dependant and can change drastically depending on what you're hoping to get from your visit there.

nraford 3y ago
Don't take it personally. The Dutch are notorious misanthropes!
miobrien 3y ago
Fascinating observation.
wink 3y ago
I'm not even sure if I've ever went to a bar alone in my whole life, but from my observations it's not very common to talk to strangers at all here in Germany, I guess the best chances are outside in a beer garden and not in a bar or cafe, or if the venue is packed enough that you get someone seated at your table (or vice versa). Then again, if you're out with people you're probably more focused on your group so you don't necessarily notice the strangers connecting, but I still doubt I'd missed it all the time.
- rex_gallorum2 3y ago
  Germany definitely tends to be like that - but it makes it all the more interesting when strangers do talk to you. It could also vary by region and the type of bar. I've done my share of loitering around neighborhood bars in different parts of Germany, and it is sometimes surprising how open people can be - once they get a few drinks in them.
- jhugo 3y ago
  Places where people sit at the bar, as opposed to tables, are the best for this, especially if they are in places frequented by solo (e.g. business) travelers. Bars in hotels, airports and train stations (or onboard trains!) are often the most social places around. I've had many good conversations with Germans at hotel bars in various parts of Germany :)
fatnoah 3y ago
> One of my biggest culture shocks in moving from Ireland to the Netherlands I've only been to Ireland once, but I absolutely loved how the local pub felt like the shared living room for the town. It was so different from my experience at most bars in the US (there are some that also fit this bill, but they're rare). I ended up going there every night I was in town for dinner and a pint, and some friendly chit-chat.
- slothtrop 3y ago
  I had read elsewhere that in Iceland, the swimming pools fill that social role. They have a very strong culture surrounding that. It seems to me there's basically no equivalent in the U.S. & Canada, or at least, not one that is consistent across the countries. There's a coffee shop "culture", but not in the capacity of striking up conversation. We end up using contrived means to merely signal to one another that we want to talk (i.e. social apps). These would be rendered redundant if there was a "space" where this was expected. Maybe the virtualized always-online shift of daily life has destroyed this. I would grant that there are Irish Pubs in the area that are frequented by older regulars, where striking up conversation is probably more of an expectation, but young people don't go there.
  - jamal-kumar 3y ago
    Canada and the USA are generally still places where you can strike up conversation with people at bars and carry on a conversation about sports or whatever. It doesn't really get much deeper than that, though, and good luck running into any smart opinions if you bother to try... I just remember encountering a ton of bigoted drunken ranting.
  - derefr 3y ago
    Hypothesis: an implicit secondary reason that so many young people want to be social-media "influencers", is that holding a microphone and having a cameraman following you, creates a magic circle of this kind of "space" around your own person, such that people who ordinarily would never give you the time of day will be perfectly willing to talk to you for a video.
  - 3y ago
peteforde 3y ago
100% cultural. I empathize with your description of easy socialization, but I remain firmly in the "I don't mean to be rude, but what part of my book and body language makes you think I want to talk to strangers right now" camp.
- jmoak3 3y ago
  That's so alien to me - when I read at a coffee shop or a bar I'm there to interact and have the book as something to do in the interim. Reading and drinking at home is free, and quiet.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    > I'm there to interact and have the book as something to do in the interim. That is not a possibility that ever even crossed my mind. If I see someone reading a book, I just assume that they don't want social interaction. I didn't even realize that I was making an assumption until I read these comments.
    - AlecSchueler 3y ago
      The book is like holding a up a sign saying "Here is a subject I'm interested in and might have recently learned some interesting things about, AMA."
      - peteforde 3y ago
        Free start-up idea: dust covers that say "Please leave me the fuck alone"
- dogleash 3y ago
  > what part of my book and body language makes you think I want to talk to strangers right now That you're reading at a bar instead of reading at home. I have a friend that reads at bars, because he likes random conversations but needs something to do in between them.
mabbo 3y ago
Reading you're description, all I can think is "I want to live in Ireland". That sounds like a cultural trait that should be treasured. In Canada, the only time you might talk to a stranger at a bar is if you're trying to hit on them.
- professor_x 3y ago
  Irish people are just insanely delightful
- mrits 3y ago
  When I' traveling alone for work I almost always have a chat with someone at a hotel bar.
- deepspace 3y ago
  Actually, that depends on the type of bar. At a Donnelly Group bar, absolutely. But at the older not-quite-dive bars, often attached to a motel and frequented by truckers, good conversation between strangers can still be had. Unfortunately, those bars are disappearing rapidly. 25 years ago, I lived across the street from one, and there were another two nearby. Maybe five or six in my neighbourhood. Now there is only one left, and it is struggling to stay open.
- applied_heat 3y ago
  Dunno man Sometimes when I’m on the road I eat at the pub at the bar and usually end up chatting with whoever is right beside me. I’m in Canada
- namaria 3y ago
  I was born in the Americas, and I am an European citizen by descent. Being a dual citizen and getting to know the old country changed my life. Highly recommend it. The Americas are very much a frontier society and people who have lived for over a thousand year together have accumulated much more conviviality skills.
pindab0ter 3y ago
I have a pet theory. Disclaimer: I'm Dutch. In the UK, it's a faux pas to talk about 'serious topics' (feelings, politics, etc.) with strangers. There is no danger of this happening, and if it does happen you're equipped to deal with it. In the Netherlands, however, it's relatively common to talk about serious things. Even with strangers. This makes every conversation 'risky'. My theory is that this is at the root of why the Dutch are generally not very good at small talk. It's scary, so we don't do it enough, so we're not practised.
- phkahler 3y ago
  >> In the Netherlands, however, it's relatively common to talk about serious things. Even with strangers. This makes every conversation 'risky'. Sometimes it's good to talk about serious things with someone not directly involved with your life (i.e. no skin in the game). People even pay for this as a service, I think it's called... um... therapy. A friend of mine "admitted" to seeing a "talky doctor" because "there aren't any insightful bar tenders any more". This in the US.
  - pindab0ter 3y ago
    Oh, definitely. I recently went to Japan and while I enjoyed the culture immensely, I can't help but notice a lot of people really aching for actual conversation. Something the Dutch generally aren't starved of with their direct and open (sometimes maybe blunt) attitude.
    - kurthr 3y ago
      This is especially true in business situations. Although there is a very collective decision making process, it can be quite hierarchical. Often, if a manager has stated a position others will not disagree even if it is quite wrong. This is where drinking together comes in... I've seen an engineer who had sat through a day of meetings on a topic holding his tongue until they went out for drinks after work (like most days). The moment beer touched his lips he broke into an angry tirade as to how terrible the decision was, and because we were "drinking" it was not considered out of bounds or reasonably punishable insubordination. Of course sexual harassment can have similar in/out of bounds elements so it's not like strict rules, boundaries, and exceptions solve all problems.
skrebbel 3y ago
I’m Dutch and wow Ireland sounds amazing. We have that a bit in coffee bars but it’s way more subdued than what you describe. Over beers in NL people will pretty much assume you’re an alcoholic / basket case for trying to connect with a random group of strangers.
- mettamage 3y ago
  Yep, but you can make it work. I’m a Dutchie too. Most people don’t believe me, but there’s always a hack :)
  - smw 3y ago
    Don't leave us hanging!
  - Tijdreiziger 3y ago
    Please elaborate...
  - AlecSchueler 3y ago
    Would love to hear your hack if you're willing to share.
mandeepj 3y ago
> The best place to drink is the emptiest bar in the city I don't just visit a bar for drinks alone; socializing is part of the experience as well. > At home I thought of bars primarily as a place to meet new people. I'd head down about once a week alone, with just my newspaper and a free afternoon, and generally end up chatting with someone about the news until we headed out for dinner together. Thanks for sharing that. I've added Ireland in my travel bucket list. I hope I'll have a similar experience
lordnacho 3y ago
In the Germanic countries I've been to, the thing to do seems to be to join a club of some sort. Like a rowing club or something like that. I find it odd tbh, I'd rather have the model you're describing.
- rex_gallorum2 3y ago
  In Germany for example it's the only way. Join the club and hang around their private bar!
  - patrickk 3y ago
    The volunteer fire service is a prime example. In some towns they have incredible facilities. It’s basically a drinking club.
dncornholio 3y ago
This is why I visited the coffeeshops, not to smoke, but to play pool and socialise. People in there are way more open to small talks.
0xfaded 3y ago
Something I learned from an Irish friend is that the (real) Irish pubs function as a global support network. If you need a job, for example, you can find the local pub and chances are someone can help you out.
rex_gallorum2 3y ago
So true. I had a similar experience in Germany. I'd say Ireland is small enough that everyone is connected to everyone else in some way, and people are curious about others, and discovering those remote connections. I've found that in many other places, people just don't care and are not interested.
taway1874 3y ago
Feels good to just read that there is such a magical place on earth. USA used to be that way but it's quite not the same now. That's it!! I'm moving to Ireland.
j7ake 3y ago
The funniest story I heard about cultural differences is the clash of Irish and NL cultures. A young Irish university student just arrived to his new apartment in NL for exchange. Shortly after settling into his apartment, a Dutch woman knocked on his door. She said “Hello, you must be new here. I want to let you know that we are having a party today.” Excited about a potential party, he replied, “wow great! What time does it start? And can I bring something?”. Dutch woman gives him a stare and raised eyebrow, “No, you are not invited. I just wanted to let you know there will be a party. If it is too loud please let us know.” And that was how this young Irish man was introduced to the famous Dutch culture.
N19PEDL2 3y ago
I experienced the same thing but in reverse when I moved to Scotland from Italy. Now I'm back and I miss that kind of socialising.
sacnoradhq 3y ago
Holy crap, leave it to Iberian peninsular denizens to turn bars anti-social and freeze out cool. It reminds me of the restaurants celebrating dinner for one and people wearing "child free" as some sort self-righteous identity snob pride badge. Being hostile to "outsiders" seems an obsolete, provincial, and narrow-minded worldview to be challenged at every opportunity. People must start somewhere by chatting with new people or they won't make friends. What the heck values did their friends and families teach them or not?
bjornasm 3y ago
>I went for a walk while visiting my mother and decided to stop for a quick Guinness while reading my book. I wasn't on the second page when a passing woman stopped to ask me what I was reading. I explained it was in Dutch and we had a whole conversation about her brother working in Amsterdam. I couldn't believe it! As an Scandinavian I must admit that this sounds less than ideal. When are you going to get time to read your book if people keep interrupting you? (50/50 joke/serious).
- AlecSchueler 3y ago
  If I really didn't want to be interrupted I'd read at the library, a cafe or at home rather than a public house. If I wanted to read with the bustle of people around me then I'd probably opt for the bus station.
jkmcf 3y ago
Your post makes me want to get off my ass and find my GGparents birth certificates so I can prove I'm "Irish" for citizenship and emigration from the US. Where is home/your mother in Ireland, if you don't mind my asking? Dublin is probably a different beast in some ways, but when I was on a train from Cork to Dublin, I had expected to read the whole way, but this elderly woman sat across from me and we had a wonderful conversation for the whole trip.
- AlecSchueler 3y ago
  I'm from the North. I grew up in Belfast but my mother is now living nearby in a town on the County Down side of the Lough.

nraford 3y ago

Don't take it personally. The Dutch are notorious misanthropes!

miobrien 3y ago

Fascinating observation.

wink 3y ago

I'm not even sure if I've ever went to a bar alone in my whole life, but from my observations it's not very common to talk to strangers at all here in Germany, I guess the best chances are outside in a beer garden and not in a bar or cafe, or if the venue is packed enough that you get someone seated at your table (or vice versa). Then again, if you're out with people you're probably more focused on your group so you don't necessarily notice the strangers connecting, but I still doubt I'd missed it all the time.

rex_gallorum2 3y ago
Germany definitely tends to be like that - but it makes it all the more interesting when strangers do talk to you. It could also vary by region and the type of bar. I've done my share of loitering around neighborhood bars in different parts of Germany, and it is sometimes surprising how open people can be - once they get a few drinks in them.
jhugo 3y ago
Places where people sit at the bar, as opposed to tables, are the best for this, especially if they are in places frequented by solo (e.g. business) travelers. Bars in hotels, airports and train stations (or onboard trains!) are often the most social places around. I've had many good conversations with Germans at hotel bars in various parts of Germany :)

fatnoah 3y ago

> One of my biggest culture shocks in moving from Ireland to the Netherlands I've only been to Ireland once, but I absolutely loved how the local pub felt like the shared living room for the town. It was so different from my experience at most bars in the US (there are some that also fit this bill, but they're rare). I ended up going there every night I was in town for dinner and a pint, and some friendly chit-chat.

slothtrop 3y ago
I had read elsewhere that in Iceland, the swimming pools fill that social role. They have a very strong culture surrounding that. It seems to me there's basically no equivalent in the U.S. & Canada, or at least, not one that is consistent across the countries. There's a coffee shop "culture", but not in the capacity of striking up conversation. We end up using contrived means to merely signal to one another that we want to talk (i.e. social apps). These would be rendered redundant if there was a "space" where this was expected. Maybe the virtualized always-online shift of daily life has destroyed this. I would grant that there are Irish Pubs in the area that are frequented by older regulars, where striking up conversation is probably more of an expectation, but young people don't go there.
- jamal-kumar 3y ago
  Canada and the USA are generally still places where you can strike up conversation with people at bars and carry on a conversation about sports or whatever. It doesn't really get much deeper than that, though, and good luck running into any smart opinions if you bother to try... I just remember encountering a ton of bigoted drunken ranting.
- derefr 3y ago
  Hypothesis: an implicit secondary reason that so many young people want to be social-media "influencers", is that holding a microphone and having a cameraman following you, creates a magic circle of this kind of "space" around your own person, such that people who ordinarily would never give you the time of day will be perfectly willing to talk to you for a video.
- 3y ago

peteforde 3y ago

100% cultural. I empathize with your description of easy socialization, but I remain firmly in the "I don't mean to be rude, but what part of my book and body language makes you think I want to talk to strangers right now" camp.

jmoak3 3y ago
That's so alien to me - when I read at a coffee shop or a bar I'm there to interact and have the book as something to do in the interim. Reading and drinking at home is free, and quiet.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  > I'm there to interact and have the book as something to do in the interim. That is not a possibility that ever even crossed my mind. If I see someone reading a book, I just assume that they don't want social interaction. I didn't even realize that I was making an assumption until I read these comments.
  - AlecSchueler 3y ago
    The book is like holding a up a sign saying "Here is a subject I'm interested in and might have recently learned some interesting things about, AMA."
    - peteforde 3y ago
      Free start-up idea: dust covers that say "Please leave me the fuck alone"
dogleash 3y ago
> what part of my book and body language makes you think I want to talk to strangers right now That you're reading at a bar instead of reading at home. I have a friend that reads at bars, because he likes random conversations but needs something to do in between them.

mabbo 3y ago

Reading you're description, all I can think is "I want to live in Ireland". That sounds like a cultural trait that should be treasured. In Canada, the only time you might talk to a stranger at a bar is if you're trying to hit on them.

professor_x 3y ago
Irish people are just insanely delightful
mrits 3y ago
When I' traveling alone for work I almost always have a chat with someone at a hotel bar.
deepspace 3y ago
Actually, that depends on the type of bar. At a Donnelly Group bar, absolutely. But at the older not-quite-dive bars, often attached to a motel and frequented by truckers, good conversation between strangers can still be had. Unfortunately, those bars are disappearing rapidly. 25 years ago, I lived across the street from one, and there were another two nearby. Maybe five or six in my neighbourhood. Now there is only one left, and it is struggling to stay open.
applied_heat 3y ago
Dunno man Sometimes when I’m on the road I eat at the pub at the bar and usually end up chatting with whoever is right beside me. I’m in Canada
namaria 3y ago
I was born in the Americas, and I am an European citizen by descent. Being a dual citizen and getting to know the old country changed my life. Highly recommend it. The Americas are very much a frontier society and people who have lived for over a thousand year together have accumulated much more conviviality skills.

pindab0ter 3y ago

I have a pet theory. Disclaimer: I'm Dutch. In the UK, it's a faux pas to talk about 'serious topics' (feelings, politics, etc.) with strangers. There is no danger of this happening, and if it does happen you're equipped to deal with it. In the Netherlands, however, it's relatively common to talk about serious things. Even with strangers. This makes every conversation 'risky'. My theory is that this is at the root of why the Dutch are generally not very good at small talk. It's scary, so we don't do it enough, so we're not practised.

phkahler 3y ago
>> In the Netherlands, however, it's relatively common to talk about serious things. Even with strangers. This makes every conversation 'risky'. Sometimes it's good to talk about serious things with someone not directly involved with your life (i.e. no skin in the game). People even pay for this as a service, I think it's called... um... therapy. A friend of mine "admitted" to seeing a "talky doctor" because "there aren't any insightful bar tenders any more". This in the US.
- pindab0ter 3y ago
  Oh, definitely. I recently went to Japan and while I enjoyed the culture immensely, I can't help but notice a lot of people really aching for actual conversation. Something the Dutch generally aren't starved of with their direct and open (sometimes maybe blunt) attitude.
  - kurthr 3y ago
    This is especially true in business situations. Although there is a very collective decision making process, it can be quite hierarchical. Often, if a manager has stated a position others will not disagree even if it is quite wrong. This is where drinking together comes in... I've seen an engineer who had sat through a day of meetings on a topic holding his tongue until they went out for drinks after work (like most days). The moment beer touched his lips he broke into an angry tirade as to how terrible the decision was, and because we were "drinking" it was not considered out of bounds or reasonably punishable insubordination. Of course sexual harassment can have similar in/out of bounds elements so it's not like strict rules, boundaries, and exceptions solve all problems.

skrebbel 3y ago

I’m Dutch and wow Ireland sounds amazing. We have that a bit in coffee bars but it’s way more subdued than what you describe. Over beers in NL people will pretty much assume you’re an alcoholic / basket case for trying to connect with a random group of strangers.

mettamage 3y ago
Yep, but you can make it work. I’m a Dutchie too. Most people don’t believe me, but there’s always a hack :)
- smw 3y ago
  Don't leave us hanging!
- Tijdreiziger 3y ago
  Please elaborate...
- AlecSchueler 3y ago
  Would love to hear your hack if you're willing to share.

mandeepj 3y ago

> The best place to drink is the emptiest bar in the city I don't just visit a bar for drinks alone; socializing is part of the experience as well. > At home I thought of bars primarily as a place to meet new people. I'd head down about once a week alone, with just my newspaper and a free afternoon, and generally end up chatting with someone about the news until we headed out for dinner together. Thanks for sharing that. I've added Ireland in my travel bucket list. I hope I'll have a similar experience

lordnacho 3y ago

In the Germanic countries I've been to, the thing to do seems to be to join a club of some sort. Like a rowing club or something like that. I find it odd tbh, I'd rather have the model you're describing.

rex_gallorum2 3y ago
In Germany for example it's the only way. Join the club and hang around their private bar!
- patrickk 3y ago
  The volunteer fire service is a prime example. In some towns they have incredible facilities. It’s basically a drinking club.

dncornholio 3y ago

This is why I visited the coffeeshops, not to smoke, but to play pool and socialise. People in there are way more open to small talks.

0xfaded 3y ago

Something I learned from an Irish friend is that the (real) Irish pubs function as a global support network. If you need a job, for example, you can find the local pub and chances are someone can help you out.

rex_gallorum2 3y ago

So true. I had a similar experience in Germany. I'd say Ireland is small enough that everyone is connected to everyone else in some way, and people are curious about others, and discovering those remote connections. I've found that in many other places, people just don't care and are not interested.

taway1874 3y ago

Feels good to just read that there is such a magical place on earth. USA used to be that way but it's quite not the same now. That's it!! I'm moving to Ireland.

j7ake 3y ago

The funniest story I heard about cultural differences is the clash of Irish and NL cultures. A young Irish university student just arrived to his new apartment in NL for exchange. Shortly after settling into his apartment, a Dutch woman knocked on his door. She said “Hello, you must be new here. I want to let you know that we are having a party today.” Excited about a potential party, he replied, “wow great! What time does it start? And can I bring something?”. Dutch woman gives him a stare and raised eyebrow, “No, you are not invited. I just wanted to let you know there will be a party. If it is too loud please let us know.” And that was how this young Irish man was introduced to the famous Dutch culture.

N19PEDL2 3y ago

I experienced the same thing but in reverse when I moved to Scotland from Italy. Now I'm back and I miss that kind of socialising.

sacnoradhq 3y ago

Holy crap, leave it to Iberian peninsular denizens to turn bars anti-social and freeze out cool. It reminds me of the restaurants celebrating dinner for one and people wearing "child free" as some sort self-righteous identity snob pride badge. Being hostile to "outsiders" seems an obsolete, provincial, and narrow-minded worldview to be challenged at every opportunity. People must start somewhere by chatting with new people or they won't make friends. What the heck values did their friends and families teach them or not?

bjornasm 3y ago

>I went for a walk while visiting my mother and decided to stop for a quick Guinness while reading my book. I wasn't on the second page when a passing woman stopped to ask me what I was reading. I explained it was in Dutch and we had a whole conversation about her brother working in Amsterdam. I couldn't believe it! As an Scandinavian I must admit that this sounds less than ideal. When are you going to get time to read your book if people keep interrupting you? (50/50 joke/serious).

AlecSchueler 3y ago
If I really didn't want to be interrupted I'd read at the library, a cafe or at home rather than a public house. If I wanted to read with the bustle of people around me then I'd probably opt for the bus station.

jkmcf 3y ago

Your post makes me want to get off my ass and find my GGparents birth certificates so I can prove I'm "Irish" for citizenship and emigration from the US. Where is home/your mother in Ireland, if you don't mind my asking? Dublin is probably a different beast in some ways, but when I was on a train from Cork to Dublin, I had expected to read the whole way, but this elderly woman sat across from me and we had a wonderful conversation for the whole trip.

AlecSchueler 3y ago
I'm from the North. I grew up in Belfast but my mother is now living nearby in a town on the County Down side of the Lough.