15 ms·

Time to subsidize e-bikes?

• gjsman-1000 3y ago
  > Subsidies are, after all, a historically successful way for governments to help launch new industries into orbit. Hard for me to not call this “survivorship bias.” You don’t hear about the times it didn’t work… > Many new technologies are expensive early on. If they’re technologies that seem likely to offer big public benefits, governments often step in… Holy smokes, what a great point. We should also subsidize electric cars for families where biking isn’t an option. We should also subsidize computers - who wants to grow up not knowing how to code? Heck, let’s subsidize free Master’s degrees, because an educated nation is a productive nation! Where’s the subsidy for poor families to go to theaters for cultural enrichment? I’m kidding of course, but to be honest, the argument proves too much and is hardly original.
  • maxerickson 3y ago
    You realize most of those things actually are subsidized, right?
    • gjsman-1000 3y ago
      Yes, and I’m not saying that it’s necessarily a bad thing either - rather that we could make a justification to subsidize anything if we tried hard enough under the logic.
  • askvictor 3y ago
    As the article mentions, the early computer industry was a product of the US military, so it was (indirectly) subsidised. Many Western countries offer free (or heavily subsidised) tertiary education, for exactly the reason you mention. I think a key point here is that a subsidy might increase the speed of adoption; the climate change argument (which I think relatively weak in this instance) is one reason to speed up adoption.
  • adgjlsfhk1 3y ago
    biking absolutely is an option for families. I see a ton of kids in bike trailers (I'm in Boston). no they don't work for 100% of people or 100% of journeys, but a cargo bike with appropriate attachments can easily do the majority of trips.
• ck2 3y ago
  First subsidize protected bike lanes nationwide (in US) Enough cycling deaths and severe injuries from cars as it is, we are at a 40 year peak because of smartphones and DWI
• Spivak 3y ago
  I think the reservation is that when you offer subsidies for electric cars you can be damn confident that it will displace a gas car. For e-bikes it's less clear and they might end up displacing bikes for recreation which is arguably a net-negative. I think instead of a POS subsidy I would make it a fairly substantial tax credit if you had fewer registered vehicles in your household than adults and keep it rolling every year. And for e-bikes specifically you can do the same sort of thing in addition, if you commit to not having a registered ICE vehicle for 1 year you get say an up to $2000 rebate on the purchase of an e-bike you can claim every so often like maybe 5 years.
  • rcpt 3y ago
    > For e-bikes it's less clear Sounds like you've never had one. They are absolutely game changing.
    • sneak 3y ago
      They're lifechanging if you drive them in the same roads as most vehicle drivers (in the US). If you're lucky, the change to your life is swift and painless. If you're not, it can be months or years until you walk again.
      • Clubber 3y ago
        I rode motorcycles for 10+ years and gave it up after I read articles about people getting killed in my area every day for 2 weeks straight. I also had a young child at the time. I'm more afraid of riding a bicycle in traffic than a motorcycle. Some people are straight up aggressive against bicycle riders.
        • htag 3y ago
          I ride motorcycles, bicycles, and more recently e-bikes. The statistics for injury/fatality are worse than cars. However there's a few things you can do to significantly decrease risk of injury and the severity of the injury. The top three things are 1. Do not combine alcohol with the activity. A disproportionate ratio of fatalities involve the operator having some alcohol in the blood stream. I'll throw things like "being hydrated" and "not tired" into this bullet. 2. Using the correct safety gear. The amount of gear I wear is well above the minimum legal requirements. Specifically the DOT helmet certification is a joke compared to every other motorcycle helmet certification on the market. 3. Rider training. You get significant insurance deductions for taking a course every 2 years. That's because staying fresh on your training actually has a huge impact on accident likelihood.
• ggm 3y ago
  Subsidies wouldn't (in my opinion) be harmful but the real transformation is changing roads. During Covid, cities in the UK built out bicycle lanes. They were not unified joy, there are still issues to resolve here. Reddit is full of pix of them being abused by white van man parking, and stupid behaviour by car drivers and roadworks. They were temporary structures. The bare minimum to demarcate ride zones. Real infrastructure makes barriers of substance even if only kerb height. Delineates the bike zone with different bricks, with independent lights, with "investment" But, if you look to the Netherlands, building it as tram:car:bike:people each flow direction isn't a bad model. (as a sometime Amsterdam resident 7 years ago I too made the classic mistake of walking in the ride path. You don't do that too often) If I had an e-bike I don't think I'd change very much of my distance, but I might change frequency of use. Some friends with e-bikes say it re-socialised riding, because before power it was totally about cadence and strength so they rode 50-100m apart mostly, a function of their natural pace and ability. Now, they ride 2x the distance, companionably, and so get the same exercise (this use of eBikes is when they are co-pedalled, its not entirely free of physical effort) but much more nicely. Right now, ebikes lie in a space which makes them fertile targets for theft. The city hire bikes in Brisbane have made a very odd height decision, you can't elevate the seat to suit my scale. I use them but its an annoyance. If they became more ubiquitous and if the value in theft dropped, I think that would be a good thing. Or we can cut off the hands of the bike thieves, Either works.
  • harha 3y ago
    Yup making cycling at full cost the better option (as you describe tackling the issues around safety, theft) will have a real long-term impact, otherwise you might end up subsidizing a fun little toy that is used for a few weeks then goes back to the garage. Another problem with subsidies is that it targets a specific mode (e-bikes), while simpler, cheaper, normal bikes might be good enough already. It could also lead to local sellers increasing the price of e-bikes.
    • KennyBlanken 3y ago
      You can buy a $200,000+ hybrid Mercedes-Maybach S 580 that gets 16mpg city, 24 highway...and both state and federal governments will give you a nice big fat check for many, many thousands of dollars. It could be the fifth car you own, which sits in the garage of one of your summer homes in the Hamptons, for 10 out of 12 months. Wringing out hands over people not using a subsidized e-bike "enough" seems pretty silly when for two decades we've been handing many thousands of dollars to anyone who has a pulse and buys a hybrid or electric, with little or no conditions. No income/worth caps, no purchase price caps, no annual usage requirements, nothing.
• delfinom 3y ago
  I'm always skeptical of subsidies on a mass scale. All you do is increase demand and thus increase prices that offset the subsidy. It also incentivizes manufacturers to float prices higher anyway. The Denver program at least limited it to low-income individuals which I think is the correct approach to avoid significant pricing disruption.
  • beachy 3y ago
    We had the opposite effect in NZ. Putting an $8K subsidy on EVs sold for <= $80K caused manufacturers to drop their prices so as to be inside the subsidy range. It seems to have worked very well, looks like they got the numbers right. I have moral issues with the wealthier members of society getting an $8K handout from the govt for buying a new car, but that's a different matter.
    • delfinom 3y ago
      Well the subsidy had a price cap which is also a smart move to try and counteract supply side issues
  • marcosdumay 3y ago
    > All you do is increase demand and thus increase prices that offset the subsidy. No, it's not. Production is elastic, it grows to accommodate price changes. For most things you get a minuscule increase in price with a large increase in usage.
  • notatoad 3y ago
    >"all you do is increase demand" yes, that's the goal here.
  • audunw 3y ago
    By your logic the EV subsidy (or, tax cut relative to gasoline cars, but it should be the same effect) in Norway shouldn't have worked. Yet it has been wildly successful. Yes, it may encourage manufacturers to increase price, but that gives them more money to do marketing, and incentivizes them to try to sell more of the product since the margins are now so good. It was striking how fast all the car marketing in Norway changed towards pushing EVs. While in other countries the car makers still seem to be primarily pushing ICEVs. Considering that consumer awareness is an important aspect of transitioning to a new solution, this is a very good thing IMO. I think it's also good that Norway didn't try to limit the subsidy to cheaper cars, to not fall for the temptation to exclude luxury cars. (Until very recently, now that the transition is already nearly complete). Making sure nobody feels excluded or singled out makes political support much easier and simplifies everything.
• martinky24 3y ago
  I bought an e-bike recently (at full cost) with the explicit intent of attempting to drive my ICE vehicle less and have loved every minute of owning it. It’s a fun thing to ride, gets me a bit more activity (I don’t consider it a workout, but it is more of a workout than driving), and gets me more time outside. I’m turning into an evangelist among my friends, and any sort of subsidy would definitely make that effort easier. If you’re on the fence, give it a go! They’re pretty mature tech these days, with a wide range of available models and price ranges.
  • Turskarama 3y ago
    >I don’t consider it a workout You might be surprised. The amount of exercise you get while "cheating" on an ebike is way more than people think, especially if you don't get one powerful enough to basically classify as a motorbike. I'm Australian, and here the power output is limited to 250 watts which means it's really just an assist rather than the main power plant (which is still the rider). Riding it uses significantly more energy than walking does since I like to go fast, so it's still very much legitimate exercise.
    • DeRock 3y ago
      250 watts is significant. That is about what a Tour de France rider will average on a typical stage.
      • Gigachad 3y ago
        Pro cyclists average about 500w and can go much higher over short periods.
        • zeroq 3y ago
          source for thar 500w avg watts in tdf? name and year?
        • richardw 3y ago
          I think 500 is a bit high, especially for an average. Much of the time they’re in a peloton, which will drop the average a lot. Peak can go way higher but it’s for far shorter bursts. “During a normal stage of the Tour de France, pro riders can pump out around 230-250 watts on average, which equates to burning about 900 calories per hour. But on some of the harder stages they can average over 300 watts, or 1,100 calories per hour. Tadej Pogačar has a Functional Threshold Power – an estimate of the power he can sustain for around one hour – of around 415 watts. But for explosive one-hour attacks on big climbs, some Tour riders have been known to exceed an average of 500 watts. And in the final stages of a sprint finish, sprinters can hit maximal efforts of over 1,500 watts.” https://www.alpecincycling.com/en/pro-peloton/from-body-fat-to-power-output-anatomy-of-a-tour-de-france-rider/ https://www.alpecincycling.com/en/pro-peloton/from-body-fat-...
• Karrot_Kream 3y ago
  I think the real indictment on establishment thinking is that we need to perform a postmortem on the Denver program before we can extoll the virtues of subsidizing ebikes and yet subsidizing electric cars seems to have been a quick default option with little reflection involved. Cars are so deeply ingrained in American infrastructural thinking, it's ridiculous.
  • Analemma_ 3y ago
    When it was announced that the repair of the collapsed bit of I-95 in Philadelphia was going to take just a couple weeks instead of the original estimate of six months, I almost had a rage blackout. It's not that we don't have the ability to build anymore; we clearly do! But while building anything which could actually help gets strangled to death in red tape and citizen meetings where J. Nimby asks what it will do to the historic heritage parking lot across the street, god forbid anything get in the way of the almighty automobile.
    • cscurmudgeon 3y ago
      You do realize that not just cars used roads? Goods, groceries, e-bikes don’t magically transport to their final destinations. Edit: there is this Captain Planet like view of cars as though most drivers are evil polluters. We are just trying to get on with our lives and aren’t privileged as folks who can afford to live car free.
      • ori_b 3y ago
        Yeah, it's shame those vital arteries of goods are always so choked up with personal cars.
        • cscurmudgeon 3y ago
          Yep groceries just grow wings and fly to stores. TP just grows wings and flies to barhrooms straight from the factories.
      • 3y ago
• alphanullmeric 3y ago
  An idea so great it had to be forced
  • brenns10 3y ago
    Just like the automobile :)
    • alphanullmeric 3y ago
      Shouldn’t have been. A little consistency goes a long way.
      • brenns10 3y ago
        Consistency? I don't quite understand. Automobiles have benefitted from the largest public subsidies in history, starting from the interstate highway system, to oil industry subsidies, all the way to the current subsidies for EV purchases. Comparing bicycling subsidies to automobile subsidies would be absurd since the value of automobile subsidies eclipses the others!
        • alphanullmeric 3y ago
          Yeah. I don’t support either subsidy. That’s consistency, which you lack.
• nazgulnarsil 3y ago
  Bikes in cities are inseparable from enforcing rule of law, which the US has little appetite for.
• xqcgrek2 3y ago
  Such a program is guaranteed to result in more injuries and deaths.
  • MattRix 3y ago
    If it led to replacing bikes with ebikes, then you’d be correct… but not if it replaces cars with ebikes (which is what it actually does, as the article confirms).
• bigwheeler 3y ago
  It definitely helped that Denver (and these days Colorado in general) has one of the largest networks of bike paths in the United States. Well beyond bike lanes, the paths are separate from roads and don’t intersect with roads. So all of these e-bikes can zip around without worrying about lunatics Zooming while driving. I’d love to use an e-bike to get around, but I’m not a fan of sharing the sidewalkless, shoulderless roads that seem to be everywhere in the state I currently live in.
  • ehnto 3y ago
    That's a major problem, I wouldn't cycle without good paths. The risks are too high, and I don't particularly like the idea of such an ignoble death as being smooshed by someone who was glancing at their phone and didn't see me. Death by tiktok, no thanks. I do ride some shared roads but they are low-traffic side streets, and I have to zip down an inner city bike lane on my commute but again, totally different to a shoulderless high speed road.
  • jimt1234 3y ago
    Thanks, I never knew that about Denver. And yes, bike paths, separate from roads, are the answer, not road sharing with cars. A teenager was killed on an e-bike a few miles from my house just last week: https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/public-safety/story/2023-06-26/15-year-old-boy-dies-after-e-bike-crash-in-encinitas https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/public-safety/stor...
  • edvinbesic 3y ago
    Living in Boulder I have however noticed that most of the trails now have “no e-bike” signs as some of those are closer to electric scooters in terms of speed so YMMV I guess even around here.
• Proven 3y ago
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• geophile 3y ago
  It is not time to subsidize e-bikes. It would be time if they could be ridden safely. Do they belong in streets, along with cars? No, the rider is at great risk. Do they belong in bike lanes? Then there is likely to be a pretty large difference in speed between e-bikes and ordinary ones, so that's dangerous too. As the article points out, there is already high demand for e-bikes. So build appropriate infrastructure, and then add subsidies to speed adoption and reduce reliance on automobiles.
  • felixfbecker 3y ago
    Electric bikes are speed-limited by law so that they are actually usually slower than what I'd ride a manual bike when I'm in a hurry. > Do they belong in streets, along with cars? No, the rider is at great risk. You could equally ask do cars belong in the streets, along with pedestrians and regular cyclists? They put every other street user at great risk. Yet we subsidize new electric cars with up to $15,000. How many people die in car accidents every year? How many die from bicycles?
    • ehnto 3y ago
      Cars very much took over streets, and not that long ago, so it's a fairer question than the current situation makes it feel like. My answer is no, they belong on roads. Streets are for people doing things, roads are for people going longer distances. We don't have a birthright to drive directly into a busy city and park next to the store we want, those streets should be for the people actually using the city areas. This is up to the cities to decide and implement, but any city area that prioritizes peds and other light transport gets a vote in my book. I intentionally say city area not city, so it's understood I mean certain districts like downtowns and CBDs. Suburbia is what it is, you need a car there at this stage.
    • sbilstein 3y ago
      Not in an urban area. E-bikes fly through sidewalks, bike lanes, crosswalks in NYC. Threatening pets and people at all times. Bikes were already bad, now it’s just more and faster.
    • deleted 3y ago
• mberning 3y ago
  I love riding e-scooters all around our downtown area. It’s fun, cheap, and way more convenient than driving or taking a cab/uber. But I do worry about the safety of it being around pedestrians and larger vehicles. And out in the burbs, forget about it. No way I am taking a scooter or bike out on a busy road. What we need is a serious conversation around zoning and building communities in such a way that walking, scooters, and bikes become viable for 50%+ of peoples daily commuting.
  • lotsoweiners 3y ago
    > What we need is a serious conversation around zoning and building communities in such a way that walking, scooters, and bikes become viable for 50%+ of peoples daily commuting. Isn’t the problem that the “communities” are already built? I live around 20-25 miles from the major employment centers other than medical offices/hospitals and can’t help but think that most people aren’t going to start walking, scootering, or biking no matter what. I’d think subsidies for additional WFH would make a far bigger difference (based on the minuscule commuting traffic I observed during early-ish Covid).
    • 43920 3y ago
      Things can change a lot in 10+ years; it's not going to happen quickly, but you can start incrementally making zoning changes, and as the buildings in the area turn over it'll slowly start approaching something better, which should hopefully result in people making different transportation choices. Also, a number of places in the US are still growing and sprawling outwards; reversing that trend would have a positive effect even if none of the existing places change. > I live around 20-25 miles from the major employment centers other than medical offices/hospitals This is sort of the problem though. Some people prefer to live that far away, and if you do that's great, but a lot of people end up moving away from cities for economic reasons. Building more housing closer to the employment centers would allow more people to live nearby, which reduces the number of people that need to commute that far.
• Slava_Propanei 3y ago
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• schaefer 3y ago
  I bought an e-bike some years ago, loved it completely, but the battery promptly failed. The company that sold the bike (SF startup faraday) promptly went out of business. — I want so much to hop back in the saddle… but I’m thinking about e-waste. And feeling pretty shy about the whole thing.
  • jeffbee 3y ago
    So buy an ebike from a bike company instead of some VC crap. Bonus: less likely to burst into flames.
    • schaefer 3y ago
      If you really start looking for companies that pledge to support battery replacements for 5 or 10 years after initial sale… well, I haven’t found any. Meanwhile, my 20 year old manual bike is still good as new. Or go looking for a company that will take an old e-bike and recycle it upon purchase of a new bike, I’m not finding that either. So it’s easy to be flippant, but if you have concrete links to either of the above, that would be far more useful.
      • midoridensha 3y ago
        >If you really start looking for companies that pledge to support battery replacements for 5 or 10 years after initial sale… well, I haven’t found any. Have you looked at Panasonic?
        • jeffbee 3y ago
          Also Yamaha.
          • schaefer 3y ago
            The three year warranty at Yamaha is way better than the deal I walked into last time around. They’re on my radar now for sure. Thank you.
• justinator 3y ago
  I support this idea! I also support the idea of non-e-bikes too, I mean: why not? I prefer just pushing the bike with my own muscles and I don't own a car. I wouldn't mind some help with a purchase of a commuter bike!
• monkeywork 3y ago
  E-Bikes need major reforms, at least in my area (Toronto). The problem I see it is you have two categories of the product labeled the same. On one hand, there are conventional bicycles equipped with pedal-assisted motors, designed to mimic typical human-powered speeds. On the other hand, there are E-Bikes marketed as potential substitutes for motorcycles. Most of my issues come from people riding the latter of those two categories, however some of the concerns directly relate to both. E-Bikes have a huge part of their ownership caught up into two groups that are doing the entire sector harm as well, the first group causing harm is those who are out modifying these bikes and getting them up to highway speeds in some cases, the second group are people who are turned to these as a mode of transport because they have lost their licenses due to DUIs and now take those same impairments to the E-Bike world. Several crucial problems exacerbate the situation: the absence of mandatory safety equipment such as helmets, the lack of insurance coverage, insufficient training provisions, and the absence of mechanisms for accountability and identification of riders and their respective bikes. In my personal opinion, a comprehensive solution for my region involves licensing all E-Bikes under the moped or limited-speed motorcycle license, requiring license plates, and implementing cost-effective insurance options (possibly achieved through government subsidization).
  • MattRix 3y ago
    Requiring things like licenses and insurance would be a great way to drasticially reduce the uptake of ebikes, which seems like a horrible idea. I think this is a situation where your proposes solution (which I don’t think would be effective anyway!) is worse than the problem.
    • monkeywork 3y ago
      Dramatically INCREASING the uptake of something that has serious safety concerns shouldn't be something we urge people to do. I can't see how having more untrained, unregistered, unregulated, vehicles and riders flying around is a good thing in any scenario.
      • s0rce 3y ago
• roflyear 3y ago
  I think we need some kind of education around them. In cities I've lived in people are extremely reckless on these bikes.
  • paulgb 3y ago
    I’ve seen this in some cities too, but me this just says that those cities have such a lack of cycling infrastructure that only reckless people are willing to ride bikes. I don’t think there’s anything particular about e-bikes that attracts reckless people compared to trucks or motorcycles.
    • roflyear 3y ago
      That's true, I would not be against making some streets bike-only. > I don’t think there’s anything particular about e-bikes that attracts reckless people compared to trucks or motorcycles. I would disagree with this. The people who are reckless are working - they are doing deliveries and trying to get as many jobs in as they can.
  • PpEY4fu85hkQpn 3y ago
    There is plenty of data on this topic and it all shows that people riding bikes break rules at the same or lower rate than people driving cars. And unlike cars, they aren't one of the leading causes of death in the US. https://usa.streetsblog.org/2018/01/03/study-cyclists-dont-break-traffic-laws-any-more-than-drivers-do/ https://usa.streetsblog.org/2018/01/03/study-cyclists-dont-b... https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2019/05/10/cyclists-break-far-fewer-road-rules-than-motorists-finds-new-video-study/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/carltonreid/2019/05/10/cyclists... https://www.jtlu.org/index.php/jtlu/article/view/871 https://www.jtlu.org/index.php/jtlu/article/view/871 https://daily.jstor.org/are-cyclists-reckless-lawbreakers/ https://daily.jstor.org/are-cyclists-reckless-lawbreakers/
    • roflyear 3y ago
      I break the law on my bike a lot more than my car, but I don't ride an ebike on the sidewalk where pedestrians are. That's what I'm talking about. I run stop signs on my bike all the time (like at 4 way stops) - I don't think this is very dangerous if you do it properly. Obviously I slow down to like a few MPH and can stop quickly if I see a car/someone crossing the street/whatever.
• mynonameaccount 3y ago
  One thing about e-bikes is they are targeted by thieves due to their price. Don't expect to own it for too long. I'm good with my regular bike + bus. There are so many free bikes around, I found 3 free bikes this week. Two needed some oiling and tuning but works well. Third one has a heavily rusted chain but I can handle it.
  • tjr225 3y ago
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• ytdytvhxgydvhh 3y ago
  The skeptic in me wonders how many of those low-income buyers used this to just make a quick buck by reselling the bike. Potentially to someone outside of Denver, which might mean the taxpayers of Denver got 0 benefit for their $1200. That’s probably always going to be a cost of a program like this though - some of the bikes are used extensively as intended and some are resold/stolen/wrecked in short order.
  • lamontcg 3y ago
    Means someone out there still got a new e-bike. That didn't make the world worse off than it was before.
    • aembleton 3y ago
      But Denver had $1200 less to spend on bike infrastructure.
      • lamontcg 3y ago
        Worrying that someone out there might be getting away with something is why this country will remain terrible.
• deleted 3y ago
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• wskish 3y ago
  It is amazing much room there is to re-optimize cities around smaller electric vehicle transportation when you think on a slightly longer timescale.
• beefield 3y ago
  It's also time to regulate ebikes to have standard and open interfaces to batteries and motors (you are welcome to have multiple standards and even create new ones if technology evolves). They are ridiculously expensive to replace for what they are - and how long they last, at least shimano motors.
• exabrial 3y ago
  Maybe if we stopped taxing the living crap out of everything else, we could afford them. I'm very pro bike (writing this as I've walked in from a 35mi ride tonight). Ebikes allow people that are not in the best of shape to get moving. It's worked miracles for some people and is a gateway to better health. If we haven't learned yet, subsidizing has a way of creating glut, waste and abuse. How do you think Comcast got entrenched? How do you think recreation.gov came to be? The thought behind "hey we should subsidize ebikes" is a good one. Unfortunately it's the wrong solution.
  • croes 3y ago
    I doubt that taxes are the problem. More like higher taxes for some and higher wages for others.
    • hackeraccount 3y ago
      Don't tax him, don't tax me, tax the man behind the tree.
    • exabrial 3y ago
      Taxing someone $10k to give them back $500 as an incentive to buy an ebike, while keeping the rest isn’t a good plan. That’s my point. It’d be better to just leave them with their money for multiple reasons.
  • s0rce 3y ago
    I don't really understand comcast or recreation.gov related to direct to consumer subsidies that likely actually create systemic savings on transportation infrastructure greater than the cost of the subsidy. I do think that we should build infrastructure and penalize driving significantly which would encourage bike riding but subsidies don't seem like they will hurt nor create some weird monopoly like you suggest.
  • KennyBlanken 3y ago
    > If we haven't learned yet, subsidizing has a way of creating glut, waste and abuse. looks over at the massive, entrenched, systemic subsidization of low-occupancy motor vehicles "Use fees" don't cover the costs of just roadway maintenance and construction in any state in the US. They typically make up much less than half. Then there's all the other costs we as a whole subsidize, like police/fire/ems resources used responding to dangerous drivers and crashes, which tend to be dominated by low-occupancy passenger vehicles. Professionally driven vehicles for cargo and people are involved in far, far fewer incidents.
• philips 3y ago
  I have used my Tern GSD ebike with my two kids under 6yo and it has been transformative to how we get around the suburbs of Portland. I have put on about 1800miles in a little under two years. We use it for visiting the park, grocery shopping, library, and getting to preschool. All that being said it can be challenging in a few ways: - Infrastructure: We partially chose our current suburb home due to the good bike infrastructure and will have to be even more hyper aware if we have to move again. The two important pieces to us are: trail systems that get you 80% of the way to most places without interacting with cars AND dedicated bike/ped under/over passes around major motordom infrastructure like freeways. Luckily our current home had both. - Maintenance: I think there is a market opportunity for ebike components that are WAY beefier than the current incumbent components. In particular the brake pads and brake systems are just not up for the job in any hilly terrain. And given the weight/size of a cargo ebike getting it to a shop via a car is annoying. So, I have learned to just bleed and replace pads myself but it is a tedious task that needs to be done about every 600miles under my use. - Price: The Tern GSD is pretty crazy expensive at ~$6k but was the only thing that checked the boxes of belt drive, integrated hub, and mid-drive assist for us. Also, to share with friends and interested folks the ways we get around I started sharing recordings of my routes and rides with an overlay map: https://github.com/philips/bike-cam-map-overlay https://github.com/philips/bike-cam-map-overlay
• tonymet 3y ago
  time to subsidize 150cc petrol motorcycles. with modern ICE motor and emissions you can easily get 120mpg with near zero emissions (better than electric emissions ) you can build 20 small motorcycles using the materials of one tesla and 50 for 1 e hummer set city speed limits to 45mph typical quality e bike is about the same cost as a 150cc moto
  • s0rce 3y ago
    agreed, subsidize all 2 wheeled city-speed-appropriate transport options!
  • doctoboggan 3y ago
    I don't understand the near zero emissions bit, as c02 is a product of any combustion. Is the argument that it's just significantly less?
    • adgjlsfhk1 3y ago
      yeah. a 200lb motorcycle with 200lbs of rider uses a ton less fuel than a 3000lb car
      • doctoboggan 3y ago
        Based on the numbers in the original comment, it seems like it uses about 1/4th of the fuel, which means it would emit 1/4th of the co2. A 75% reduction is definitely something to celebrate, but its not what I would call "near zero emissions (better than electric emissions )".
        • adgjlsfhk1 3y ago
          120 mpg is similar to an electric car (if you consider the electricity). Electric motorcycles/ebikes are still ~2x more efficient (small gas engines suck), but a gas motorcycle is still pretty good compared to a car (especially once you start taking into account the infrastructure/congestion/road wear).
  • 3y ago
• sircastor 3y ago
  I would rather money to subsidize e-bikes go into creating safer bike lanes. Using a bike as a regular means of commuting is high risk. Motor vehicle drivers are inattentive, distracted, unaware, and sometimes intentionally vindictive.
  • s0rce 3y ago
    Why not both? Tax cars more, particularly big ones and parking. Subsidize bikes and bike lane projects.
    • vorpalhex 3y ago
      You are indirectly saying to tax farmers, the poor and other people who don't or can't live within bicycle distance of their work, or who have to do things like work on their own house. Not to mention families!
      • acover 3y ago
        You can make regressive taxes progressive with rebates.
      • sofixa 3y ago
        Taxes on cars can and should be proportional to weight, power, size, price, etc. It's quite easy to increase the taxes on Porsche Cayennes without making Honda Civics unaffordable.
    • midoridensha 3y ago
      It sounds great, but in America you'd need to have a revolution and install a brutal dictator to accomplish this, because most Americans would violently oppose this kind of legislation.
      • tim333 3y ago
        America already has taxes on cars and subsidies on bike stuff. It's a question of how much to do.
• paulgb 3y ago
  One easy thing that should be a no-brainer is making bike share eligible for commuter benefits. In NYC people genuinely do commute by bikeshare, but it’s not eligible for pre-tax money. Meanwhile, if you commute by car, you can put pre-tax money aside for parking (and maybe gas?)
• seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  I’d love to get an e-bike, but I have no indoor garage to keep it in, and they get stolen at a fast clip in my area (Ballard in Seattle). If the police were more aggressive (or even just nit apathetic) to bike thefts, I would totally consider it.
  • MavropaliasG 3y ago
    Aren't they equipped with GPS?
    • seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      You can out an apple tag in them. Most of the theft recovery stories I’ve heard about involve the Apple tag. A GPS + cell networker transmitter would help, but the power requirements would probably make it infeasible. Apple tags work great, although thieves are getting iPhones of their own to figure out if the bike has one via the anti stalking feature. Also, trying to re-get your bike from an encampment after you tracked it down is dangerous, and the police might not have time to help you get your property back (although I’ve heard a success story here as well).
      • deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
    • margalabargala 3y ago
      Some of the nicest ones are. Most are not. GPS isn't itself useful. That lets the bike know where it is, which is meaningless without the ability to communicate that to the outside world. That requires a cell connection and active subscription, which costs money. Most bikes do not have this ability.
• chrislan815 3y ago
  build bike friendly road and e-bikes will come.
  • timbit42 3y ago
    Make one of the lanes of two (or more) lane roads for bikes. Two lane streets would become one way streets.
• xorvoid 3y ago
  Love this idea! I've long thought that E-bikes are a gateway-drug to normal bikes and better health. Years ago I had a bad knee injury and for a while I didn't have the range of motion to peddle a normal bike. So I bought an E-bike with a throttle (it's basically a motorcycle in every way except the regulation). But, when I was able to ride a regular road bike again, I opted for it instead. Later, my mother in her 60s came to visit and we went on a 25 mile ride. She LOVED it. I gave it to her and she took it home. My dad liked it so much that he bought one too and now they go out on long 40 mile E-bike rides. They love it. I joke that I saved their marriage. I'm not sure it's really a joke. They wouldn't be able to get out and get this much enjoyment on regular bikes. E-bikes are accessible to nearly everyone. It's a fabulous way to cut down on our obsession in the USA!
• nightski 3y ago
  If e-bikes are great then people will buy them. We really need to start cutting subsidies instead of creating more. Focus on the big problems in our economy such as fostering healthy competition, reducing M&A and anti-competitive behavior, supporting small business, etc... These subsidies will just go into the pockets of the big entrenched players making the wealthy even more so and reducing innovation.
• crazygringo 3y ago
  Even more important is subsidizing e-bike rental networks. CitiBike in NYC is a huge success, and making part of the fleet electric was a big upgrade. But it costs a couple bucks for each electric ride on top of an expensive annual membership. But the number of e-bikes needs to grow much more, and the cost needs to come down. Either electric rides should be included in the annual fee, or else they should be integrated with a subway/bus pass so you can subway+e-bike for the same price you can subway or bus or subway+bus now.
  • kevlened 3y ago
    The problem with NYC's current rental network, and the reason I purchased a bike, is parking availability. In NYC, bikes can only be parked in charging stations, and popular areas fill up quickly. On three occasions, I had to ride an additional 10 minutes to find an available station near my destination. That excludes the additional time to walk to my destination. Purchasing an ebike improved the predictability of my commutes in NYC -- even compared to trains and taxis. In SF, you can park the standard electric bikes anywhere in their service zone for an extra charge. This means that while I often have to walk to get a bike, I can ensure there's parking at my destination if I'm in a hurry, and park for free at a station if I'm not.
• aryamaan 3y ago
  I wish we were living in the world where politicians actively did listen to public and did some changes. We need safe bike lanes. If my city has it, I’ll quickly jump the gun to make an investment. To add on top of it, let’s have some theft safety as well by building garages or having an airbnb equivalent of parking in private places. But as I think about these they feel like a child wishing for a gift on Christmas.
• nsonha 3y ago
  E-bikes are neither commute vehicles (not confortable to sit on) nor sport equipments (whose utility is to improve public health). They're just hobbyist tech thingies that contribute to e-waste. Why subsidise them? Electric motorbike is another story, but I don't think they're that common in the developed world.
  • relyks 3y ago
    As someone who has an e-bike that's pedal assist, I have commuted 20 miles on a regular basis to work _because_ I'm able to with my e-bike. They enable you to get exercise and travel to a location much more easily over a regular bike. What is the main advantage of an e-bike over a regular bike for me? I'm able to climb tough hills that I wouldn't be able to otherwise.
  • analog31 3y ago
    I commute on a conventional bike, but e-bikes have definitely expanded the acceptable distance for riding a bike to work, for a lot of people. Several of my work colleagues have gotten e-bikes for this purpose.
  • timbit42 3y ago
    If you want comfortable, look at recumbent trikes. Regarding e-waste, subsidize non-electric bike and trikes as well. Most of the electric motorbikes are limited to 25 mph so insurance and license are not required, but there are some that can do 35 mph and faster.
• aaron695 3y ago
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• throwawaaarrgh 3y ago
  US bike infrastructure is not there. There's not enough places to park the bikes and it's not convenient to get around on them. Scooters are actually easier to get around on in cities, and a bike just can't replace a car in rural areas. Suburbs and small towns are set up for ebikes, but that's not gonna be transformative enough to justify the credit. You will end up with a generation deciding ebikes aren't worth it. The purchases will end up as a discount on toys that will end up in the garbage in 2 years. We need a multi-phase, 30 year plan to eliminate the need for personal cars. It's a hard problem to solve in general, but moreso in the US which is built for cars. More protected bike lanes need to be rolled out, bike racks expanded tremendously, park-and-ride options expanded, increased public transit. There's plenty of mobility needs that a bike simply can't replace that need new solutions, so funding for experiments, new businesses, etc will be needed. It requires funding, construction, passing of contentious city and county ordinances. It's a complex problem. There is no simple solution.
  • Karrot_Kream 3y ago
    Most cities in the US have plans like this, they're often called things like Vision Zero plans. The core problem is that electeds don't care. They'll cut funding to these programs whenever they can, drag their feet on implementation, use a single public comment to justify auto centric development, etc. It really just comes down to the electeds and what they vote for and apportion.
  • midoridensha 3y ago
    Personally, I think it's hopeless, except maybe in certain localities within the US. Most Americans just like their cars too much and aren't interested in the lifestyle you're proposing, no matter how awful car-centric culture really is to live in. I'm actually surprised we haven't seen more pro-car comments here in this discussion, but it's the middle of the night in the US right now so maybe that's why.
    • Karrot_Kream 3y ago
      Millenials and younger are usually a lot more open to non-car-centric development. The problem is that most of the electeds who have the power to actually apportion budget to these projects (so generally state level representatives) are older, wealthier, and generally live in car-centric neighborhoods themselves. It also helps that most electeds get safe (usually guarded by staff), convenient parking at their office even if the seat of State or City power is in a high-COL neighborhood. For example, the recent efforts in the Bay to defund public transit were being pushed heavily by a State Rep based out of SF who lives in the wealthiest, most car-centric portion of the neighborhood. Despite his own constituents being against his position, there's nothing they can do but vote him out during the next election cycle.
• netfortius 3y ago
  In France you can get up to €500 from city, another €250 from department and another €250 from the region for brand new, or a little less for modified or occasion
• dreamcompiler 3y ago
  One caution: Although I'm a hardcore e-bike enthusiast, the ultra-crappy Chinese battery chargers many of them come with need to be outlawed. They are a huge fire hazard and at best they shorten battery life. Building good Li-Ion chargers that don't overcharge or overheat batteries is known technology. Those features might add $10 to the cost of the crappy chargers, and their use should be mandated by law.
  • relyks 3y ago
    There have been safety standards for e-bike batteries recently mandated by law in places like NYC, but there is still a lot of lacking enforcement and mandatory checks. Every other week, you hear an instance of a person's apartment or repair shop set on fire due to faulty e-bike batteries :(
    • sleepybrett 3y ago
      Yeah, often it seems to be delivery drivers who are really hard on their batteries. There is a grey market to repair them when cells go bad and they often use low quality replacements or override some of the safety circuitry built into a lot of the batteries.
• Toutouxc 3y ago
  I had an e-scooter for over a year. Less exercise than an e-bike, but I loved that thing. So convenient, faster than a car in the city, fun to ride, cost next to nothing to operate, amazing for weekend trips into the countryside. But I still sold it, just a week ago. Why? I live in a small apartment and I was getting increasingly paranoid about the possibility of it catching fire. Once a battery that big starts to burn, it just goes, there’s basically no way to put it out and given how cramped my apartment is, it’s game over for everything I own, even if my girlfriend and I get out. I’ve seen some news articles about e-scooter fires, even from the city I live in, and the photos were … haunting.
• relyks 3y ago
  For those not yet in the know or those in need of a reminder, the US has been considering incorporating a federal tax credit for e-bike purchases. This proposal garnered considerable support from a prominent caucus, including President Biden himself. Last year's Inflation Reduction Act was initially set to encompass this provision (https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/2420 https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/242...). However, the e-bike tax credit was ultimately omitted due to a decisive intervention by Senator Joe Manchin (D-WV), as reported here: (https://www.theverge.com/2022/8/9/23297209/ebike-tax-credit-climate-bill-ev-car-congress https://www.theverge.com/2022/8/9/23297209/ebike-tax-credit-...). Despite this, there have been efforts continue to reintroduce this credit, recognizing the ongoing relevance and significance of such initiatives. Disclaimer: I have an e-bike and it's changed my life for the better.
• LTL_FTC 3y ago
  As an avid cyclist who does both mountain and road cycling, it’s pretty cool to see the conversations going on in this thread. Also kinda challenging to not be a know-it-all
• xupybd 3y ago
  What I want in travel is warm and dry. Get me a small warm dry single person electric vehicle for cheap and I'll be in. For now I'll use my car.
  • timbit42 3y ago
    Anything electric isn't cheap in bikes but is cheap compared to a car. Look at the BetterBikes PEBL.
    • xupybd 3y ago
      They look perfect but the most I've ever spent on a car works out to be about $4.5K in USD. I guess the running costs would be lower but this is well over double the most expensive car I've ever owned.
• postscapes1 3y ago
  I wish Denver (I live here) and other cities would just start their own subsidized bike networks to compete with Lime and Uber bikes.
• kabdib 3y ago
  As a motorcyclist, I am horrified by the inadequate helmets that I see on most e-bike users. I lost an uncle a few years ago; he was wearing a typical bicycle helmet, crashed going about 20mph, and hit his heat on a curb. The end. Wear a good helmet. Be honest with yourself about the risk you are taking if you don't.
• deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
• joshlemer 3y ago
  For anyone unfamiliar, I just want to put in a good word for Brompton folding bikes which fold down to about the size of a carry on suitcase in about 15 seconds. They last decades and are extremely useful for urban cycling because they open up a whole world of milti-modal trips since they can be taken on any bus, taxi, train, ferry, etc. there’s also fantastic for shopping and can carry a surprising amount of cargo. I think this video sells it better than anyone else https://youtu.be/V6bmuJ98Zc8 https://youtu.be/V6bmuJ98Zc8 They also have electric versions. They're a bit pricey but very high quality. Being from the UK, they are limited to electric assist up to 25km/h which is a bummer for Canadians who typically get to go up to 32km/h and Americans which are limited at 40km/h, but you can also buy a regular non-electric Brompton and add on a Swytch Kit (https://www.swytchbike.com/ https://www.swytchbike.com/) which. We've done that and it's worked out really well.
  • aembleton 3y ago
    My wife had a Swytch on her Brompton and found after a year of use it wouldn't hold enough charge for her commute (10 miles). Bit disappointing really. Brompton is still excellent though. We know someone who cycles to the airport, takes it on the plane as hand luggage to Munich and then cycles to his mums house.
    • joshlemer 3y ago
      Yeah, our Swytch experience hasn't been completely seamless either, but it comes in at still like $1000 or more cheaper than an actual electric Brompton and with a higher speed limit so I still think it's better overall. I also found that getting rid of the cadence sensor and relying solely on the throttle made fore a more relaxing and confident experience. With the finicky pedal sensor you are always wondering if it will pick up your motion, which is a constant source of mild anxiety whereas the throttle is totally solid every time.
  • password4321 3y ago
    Costco sells the folding Jetson Haze e-bike (350w; 15.5m/h ~= 25km/h) for $550. https://www.costco.com/jetson-haze-electric-bike.product.4000025081.html https://www.costco.com/jetson-haze-electric-bike.product.400...
• beej71 3y ago
  I always wanted American cities to have more mopeds to cut down on traffic, and I'll definitely take that result in ebike form.
• frankreyes 3y ago
  France did that. Guess what happened with e-bike prices? Skyrocketed. The very problem trying to be solved, now it's worse.
• 28304283409234 3y ago
  No! Regular bike? Yes. Get your infrastructure in order. Stop wanting to be everywhere, all the time, asap. Cycling is twice the workout if it is a regular bike. Start getting your population healthy for once! Gah! It's like watching a good friend switching to light-cigarettes. "Because it is more healthy."
  • MgB2 3y ago
    Why gatekeep cycling? As far as I am concerned, anything that gets people out of their cars and onto bicycles is a good thing. If they like it, they might still switch to a normal bicycle later. If not, they're still an a bicycle instead of clogging the roads in their car
  • aembleton 3y ago
    > Start getting your population healthy for once! How do you do that? An eBike seems like a good first step.
• monospaced 3y ago
  In Germany employers can offer the employees a bike leasing program through one of several providers (like Jobrad). This is tax exempt and allows people to pay the monthly rate from their gross salary. The contract lasts three years after which you can return the bike or buy it for a small price. This greatly accelerated e-bike prevalence in Germany. The vast majority of e-bikes in Germany are pedelecs that offer electrical support for riders up to 250 watts and only up to a speed of 25km/h (15mph). Bikes that go faster or where one doesn’t need to pedal at all need a license plate and special insurance.
  • MgB2 3y ago
    > Bikes that go faster or where one doesn’t need to pedal at all need a license plate and special insurance. And, critically, they aren't allowed on bike lanes but have to be rode on the road instead, which makes them far less attractive for commuting in the city. That's why the limited pedelecs are by far the most popular choice of E-Bike in Germany.
• leke 3y ago
  I would love an ebike and even though I work, could not afford to pay the price they are here in Finland. Scooters are much more affordable, but I don't feel safe riding them in the winter, even though we have the best cycling infrastructure in the world, here in Oulu or so I hear. We are also the bike theft capital, or so I hear again. So that would really sting as it's usually not a matter of if, but rather when your bike gets stolen. Luckily I have the sisu and can endure the daily commute whole year on my single speed granny bike. It's so beaten up, no crack heads think they can get a good price for it on tori.fi
• tasuki 3y ago
  If we're subsidizing e-bikes, surely we should be subsidizing regular bikes even more? A normal bicycle is way more ecological than an e-bike. It's healthier too. And less dangerous.
• nemoniac 3y ago
  There appears to be no subsidy needed here in the Netherlands. Last year e-bikes were already outselling regular bikes.
• roydivision 3y ago
  How about subsidies for traditional bikes that don’t use any electricity at all? Wouldn’t that be more ecological?
• JeremyNT 3y ago
  https://archive.is/PbfRY https://archive.is/PbfRY
• johnea 3y ago
  https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/public-safety/story/2023-06-26/15-year-old-boy-dies-after-e-bike-crash-in-encinitas https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/public-safety/stor...
• f0ld 3y ago
  Why e-bikes? how about plain bicycles?
  • deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  • timbit42 3y ago
    Also trikes.