38 ms·

As a black guy I don't remember a friend ever saying "black people suck" to my face. But I've heard people I'm close with, both women and men, say that "men suc

As a black guy I don't remember a friend ever saying "black people suck" to my face. But I've heard people I'm close with, both women and men, say that "men suck" countless times. I think a lot of people who don't see themselves as "biased" still carry a lot of bias when it comes to gender, and it has an impact.

joemazerino 3y ago
[flagged]
- dang 3y ago
  Please don't take HN threads into flamewar hell - gender flamewar or any other kind. That's particularly important when responding to a thoughtful comment like the GP. I know the issue is emotionally difficult but, as the site guidelines say, "Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive." - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
hkt 3y ago
Totally. When my kid was young and I was out with him the other parents (invariably women) treated me as an oddity and assumed I would be incompetent. Yet, many don't like the fact they're saddled with the majority of childrearing. Dating is much the same: the majority of the hetero/bi female dating pool selects in favour of features that are often red flags for toxic masculinity. This gets better as one gets older, mercifully, but gender is a verb as well as a noun, and men and women alike aggressively gender one another and unwittingly punish people who deviate from the rules. Still, at least we're talking about it. Previous generations succumbed badly to gender essentialism - "men are from Mars" and that stuff - and as ever, left a mess for the next generations.
- Natsu 3y ago
  >> I think a lot of people who don't see themselves as "biased" still carry a lot of bias when it comes to gender, and it has an impact. ... > toxic masculinity Maybe we could make progress by tabooing words that frame being male as a bad thing?
  - version_five 3y ago
    I found the post you replied to very incongruous, because as I read it started with the idea that men are casually discriminated against (responding to the "men suck" thing) and then skewed into something that may be an issue but is completely in a different spirit (men defying stereotypes by being primary child carers) and then committed exactly the same offence the original post was pointing out with "toxic masculinity". It's almost like a weird simultaneous attempt to find victimhood while still toeing the "men bad" line.
    - 411111111111111 3y ago
      Toxic masculinity means something very specific, i.e. surpressing emotions other then anger and rage. I don't think it's fair to equate that to "men bad".
      - BurningFrog 3y ago
        That makes some sense. Then again, how would a similar "Toxic Blackness" concept fly?
        JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > how would a similar "Toxic Blackness" concept fly Negative elements of traditional black American culture seem well discussed by the community itself, perhaps to a fault.
      - version_five 3y ago
        The post said "female dating pool selects in favour of features that are often red flags for toxic masculinity". I took that to be a pretty expansive definition, typical "men that women like over me are toxic" vibe, at least that's how it comes out.
        rowanG077 3y ago
        No you are projecting your own worldview over the substance of that comment.
- davidguetta 3y ago
  > majority of the hetero/bi female dating pool selects in favour of features that are often red flags for toxic masculinity This is so insane. Anyone who's been enough a player of the dating game and treed to optimise your strategy known you will end up becoming or (in my case) pretending to be "toxic masculinity" because it work so much more on girls.
  - veave 3y ago
    Gee, it's almost as if women were biologically programmed to like powerful men and "toxic masculinity" was just an invention to denigrate men for being men.
    - GavinMcG 3y ago
      Thing is, men are men—can’t help it, really—regardless of what behaviors they display. Being toxic isn’t “being men” because plenty of men aren’t toxic.
    - mikrl 3y ago
      I won’t dismiss the part about evolutionary pressure favouring those hypermasculine traits, but toxic masculinity is more about critiquing aspects of masculinity that are improper or inappropriate in a societal setting. I saw a meme that summed it up nicely: “You’re not a gladiator or a spartan warrior who needs war, you’re a middle manager who needs therapy”
      - hhjinks 3y ago
        If these aspects are inappropriate, why does society continue to reinforce them? If these are just individual acts of toxicity, it would be wrong to call it toxic masculinity.
        mikrl 3y ago
        Evolutionary pressure. Society is one abstraction, reproduction is another, and they don’t always mesh nicely. Maybe the perfect society for reproduction is one of polyamorous warlord harems or something (this is a hypothetical) Men optimizing for that status quo would be absolutely lethal in our peaceful monogamous society.
- otoburb 3y ago
  >>When my kid was young and I was out with him the other parents (invariably women) treated me as an oddity and assumed I would be incompetent. That didn't happen to me but I live in a large city where I've come across (many) other dads who seemed to have more flexible schedules as evidenced by said dads showing up for pickup/dropoff and playdates. I'm not sure if there is/was a greater acceptance for fathers taking care of young children more visibly in metropolitan areas.
- atypicaluser 3y ago
  You wrote: >> Previous generations succumbed badly to gender essentialism... and as ever, left a mess for the next generations. Perhaps previous generations--thousands of them? millions?--realized there's more to gender than blank-slate social constructionism. And the mess is self-created by a younger generation wanting to rebel for want of anything else to rebel against? See how easy it is to apply ageism in the other direction? /s
klik99 3y ago
Yeah exactly. I let this kind of thing slide because obviously the problems facing minorities/women as groups are far worse than the problems facing men as a group, but just shifting the conversation from "I think group A of people is the problem" to "I think group B of people is the problem" is creating downstream problems. And there are very real issues facing men - suicide rates are dramatic enough to indicate that. I think the goal should be reduce social/economic/criminal expectations based on what group(s) a particular individual is lumped in, because we are all simultaneously part of, victims of, and perpetrators of a system that damages people, though obviously some groups are hurt way more than others. Public opinion oversimplifies things to good vs bad and works like a pendulum, and I just hope it doesn't swing too much in the opposite direction. If people saying "men suck" is a temporary by-product of addressing systemic gender inequality then that's a price I'm willing to pay. I've benefited plenty from the power of average white male mediocrity.
- FeistySkink 3y ago
  There's a 5:1 male:female suicide rate in my home country. This has been going on for decades. "Temporarily" saying "men suck" doesn't help.
  - camjohnson26 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - BlargMcLarg 3y ago
      ..and what percentage of men commit homicides? And who are the primary victims of homicides?
    - znpy 3y ago
      Do you also have stats about the victims too?
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
akomtu 3y ago
[flagged]
- gemstones 3y ago
  Interestingly, this is a plot point in a very popular Chinese-language sci-fi novel called Death’s End. Humanity is deliberately nudged to take on more feminine qualities to make them a less effective fighting force against a colonizing species. The author had to run his book by the CCP - you get the sense this hints at an accepted strategy in the Chinese mainland. It’s an interesting read.
  - ix-ix 3y ago
    Lol this is Alex Jones crap. "The globalists are making their plans public in popular media".
    - Apocryphon 3y ago
      Technically it's called predictive programming. Also it's complete nonsense because if anything, the CPC is afraid of those trends happening: https://www.npr.org/2021/09/02/1033687586/china-ban-effeminate-men-tv-official-morality https://www.npr.org/2021/09/02/1033687586/china-ban-effemina... https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-55926248 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-55926248
      - mikrotikker 3y ago
        > Also it's complete nonsense because if anything, the CPC is afraid of those trends happening: I think you misunderstood something here. The links you posted affirm the premise of the book.
        shrimp_emoji 3y ago
        The links affirm that everyone's afraid of the same shadow, even the alleged monster casting it.
Gibbon1 3y ago
I've come around to replace 'insert group name' with the word Jews and see how it sounds.
- arp242 3y ago
  I call this the "Muslim test": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27045005 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27045005 I use "Muslim", mostly because there's been a lot of negativity and discrimination surrounding Muslims in my own country, but obviously whatever works for you.
- somewhereoutth 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - Gibbon1 3y ago
    > Men as a whole class will never be rounded up and slaughtered https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I
    - somewhereoutth 3y ago
      Um, two groups of men fighting each other? But for territory / political reasons, not because 'kill all men'
      - sneed_chucker 3y ago
        The men doing the killing and being killed were largely doing so because they were forced (through conscription) or societally conditioned to enlist. No, it's not like the Holocaust, but it's an example of how men are treated as expendable.
      - Gibbon1 3y ago
        Groups of men drafted into the army and set upon each other.
kevin_thibedeau 3y ago
Misandry is normalized in society. Whenever you encounter a baseless attack on men just reverse the roles and you'll realize that there'd be pitchforks for treating women as anything other than paragons of virtue. Entire entertainment genres are built around portraying men as inept fools who can be looked down upon by the opposite sex. Seinfeld is one of the few sitcoms where a female character is as flawed as the men. You couldn't even do that show today.
- Terr_ 3y ago
  > Seinfeld is one of the few sitcoms where a female character is as flawed as the men. You couldn't even do that show today. So you observed a whole bunch of modern shows and judged that none met the same standard... Which one of them did you watch that was closest?
- enragedcacti 3y ago
  > Seinfeld is one of the few sitcoms where a female character is as flawed as the men. You couldn't even do that show today. It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia? Succession? Yellow Jackets? The Righteous Gemstones? Beef? White Lotus? House of The Dragon? You could argue about percentages but it is in fact extremely easy to do a show with flawed female characters today.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - 93po 3y ago
    Interesting, maybe: Are any of those women not white? Aside from Beef, which I'm not sure counts as much since the actor was also the writer and the show doesn't have any main characters that aren't asian.
    - EatingWithForks 3y ago
      What does race of women have to do with the emotional needs of men?
    - 3y ago
arp242 3y ago
Last year there was some graffiti near my house: "Trans rights are human rights!" Okay, fair enough. Then a few metres later, in the same colour and obviously by the same person: "Kill all men!" People will say "yes, but it doesn't mean literally kill all men", and of course it doesn't. But it's not exactly positive, is it?
- type0 3y ago
  Some people do mean it though edit: radicalism is a real thing
  - arp242 3y ago
    I suppose, but those are staggeringly rare and can essentially just be ignored.
  - mathgeek 3y ago
    > People will say "yes, but it doesn't mean literally kill all men", and of course it doesn't. As an honest question: why “of course it doesn’t”?
    - breakyerself 3y ago
      Because both sexes are required for the species to survive. Killing all men would mean the end of all women too.
      - yarg 3y ago
        [flagged]
        yowlingcat 3y ago
        [flagged]
        yarg 3y ago
vkou 3y ago
Your problem here is that if you look black, many racists and bigots won't say what they actually think to your face. (Or they justify it as 'oh, he's one of the good ones') They are often more than happy to confide in what they think of ------------ when they feel they are in a safe space. A friend of mine, who is half-black, but passes as a white guy gets way more of that than he should in North Carolina [1]. [1] It really helps that he's working in a profession that is majority-team-red. Some people really can't help but run their mouth when they think they are preaching to the choir.
rTX5CMRXIfFG 3y ago
I’ve heard people of any sex say that phrase plenty of times but that’s hardly the quintessential case of male “oppression”, if you can call it that. The scenario described in the article makes more sense, is more common, and has more serious consequences—-ignoring the feeling of boys precisely because they are culturally being forced into a certain toxic mode of masculinity—-and even then, I don’t see why you need to pitch this problem against women as if it’s supposed to be a battle for which gender has experienced oppression worse and historically so. The way that Americans have begun to frame their discussions around gender politics has honestly just gotten derailed and even more stupid since around 2016 or so.
shrimp_emoji 3y ago
[flagged]
- pclmulqdq 3y ago
  Those both sound pretty sexist and racist to me.
- a_puppy 3y ago
  "Punching up" is still punching. While men are on average more privileged than women, being a man also has disadvantages, and many individual men are actually quite vulnerable. "Punching up" at men causes real harm. Please don't make excuses for misandry.
  - dumpsterdiver 3y ago
    It's not even punching up. For every one woman who commits suicide, four men will follow her to the grave the same way. More women claim to be lonely than men... my hypothesis is that women actually talk about being lonely while men just kill themselves at a certain point.
    - oblio 3y ago
      Women actually talk about being lonely - yes, and men don't, and definitely not to other men, because talking about problems is weak and feminine.
      - dumpsterdiver 3y ago
        I don't think it has anything to do with a fear of being considered feminine. Speaking as a man, I think we are just more inclined to talk about things such as ongoing projects, or things that we saw that interest us, such as an MMA fight or a sci-fi movie. I believe we are simply less inclined to talk about our feelings. Why? Well, first of all it's just burdensome. It's not fun, and more importantly, it's not exactly productive talking about feelings. That is a reoccurring point of contention between men and women, yes? Feeling vs doing. If a lady says that she is thirsty, a man's first response will be to get that woman some water. It would be much less common for a man to forgo finding water, and instead query the lady on her current emotional state. "My queen, your thirst is mine. Let us suffer together." No! We're going to get that lady some damn water.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
msla 3y ago
And we have this: https://www.theguardian.com/education/2015/nov/17/row-after-university-of-york-cancels-international-mens-day-event https://www.theguardian.com/education/2015/nov/17/row-after-... > A row has broken out at York University after plans to mark International Men’s Day on Thursday were cancelled following an outcry from staff and students. There is a big rift in feminism which feminists seem loath to acknowledge, preferring instead to claim that it isn't real, it's made up by anti-feminists, and it isn't important even if you can point to actual evidence. Well, it's real, it's important, and despite the posturing, we aren't all ignoring it. More: https://time.com/3432838/emma-watson-feminism-men-women/ https://time.com/3432838/emma-watson-feminism-men-women/ > Just in the past few days, many feminist commentators have taken great umbrage at suggestions that soccer star Hope Solo, currently facing charges for assaulting her sister and teenage nephew, deserves similar censure to football player Ray Rice, who was caught on video striking his fiancée. Their argument boils down to the assertion that violence by men toward their female partners should be singled out because it’s a bigger problem than female violence toward family members. Meanwhile, in Watson’s native England, activists from women’s organizations recently blamed the shortage of services for abused women on efforts to accommodate abused men (despite the fact that, as Guardian columnist and blogger Ally Fogg demonstrated, even the lowest estimates of the prevalence of domestic violence against men suggest that male victims are far less likely than women to get help).

joemazerino 3y ago

[flagged]

dang 3y ago
Please don't take HN threads into flamewar hell - gender flamewar or any other kind. That's particularly important when responding to a thoughtful comment like the GP. I know the issue is emotionally difficult but, as the site guidelines say, "Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive." - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

hkt 3y ago

Totally. When my kid was young and I was out with him the other parents (invariably women) treated me as an oddity and assumed I would be incompetent. Yet, many don't like the fact they're saddled with the majority of childrearing. Dating is much the same: the majority of the hetero/bi female dating pool selects in favour of features that are often red flags for toxic masculinity. This gets better as one gets older, mercifully, but gender is a verb as well as a noun, and men and women alike aggressively gender one another and unwittingly punish people who deviate from the rules. Still, at least we're talking about it. Previous generations succumbed badly to gender essentialism - "men are from Mars" and that stuff - and as ever, left a mess for the next generations.

Natsu 3y ago
>> I think a lot of people who don't see themselves as "biased" still carry a lot of bias when it comes to gender, and it has an impact. ... > toxic masculinity Maybe we could make progress by tabooing words that frame being male as a bad thing?
- version_five 3y ago
  I found the post you replied to very incongruous, because as I read it started with the idea that men are casually discriminated against (responding to the "men suck" thing) and then skewed into something that may be an issue but is completely in a different spirit (men defying stereotypes by being primary child carers) and then committed exactly the same offence the original post was pointing out with "toxic masculinity". It's almost like a weird simultaneous attempt to find victimhood while still toeing the "men bad" line.
  - 411111111111111 3y ago
    Toxic masculinity means something very specific, i.e. surpressing emotions other then anger and rage. I don't think it's fair to equate that to "men bad".
    - BurningFrog 3y ago
      That makes some sense. Then again, how would a similar "Toxic Blackness" concept fly?
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > how would a similar "Toxic Blackness" concept fly Negative elements of traditional black American culture seem well discussed by the community itself, perhaps to a fault.
    - version_five 3y ago
      The post said "female dating pool selects in favour of features that are often red flags for toxic masculinity". I took that to be a pretty expansive definition, typical "men that women like over me are toxic" vibe, at least that's how it comes out.
      - rowanG077 3y ago
        No you are projecting your own worldview over the substance of that comment.
davidguetta 3y ago
> majority of the hetero/bi female dating pool selects in favour of features that are often red flags for toxic masculinity This is so insane. Anyone who's been enough a player of the dating game and treed to optimise your strategy known you will end up becoming or (in my case) pretending to be "toxic masculinity" because it work so much more on girls.
- veave 3y ago
  Gee, it's almost as if women were biologically programmed to like powerful men and "toxic masculinity" was just an invention to denigrate men for being men.
  - GavinMcG 3y ago
    Thing is, men are men—can’t help it, really—regardless of what behaviors they display. Being toxic isn’t “being men” because plenty of men aren’t toxic.
  - mikrl 3y ago
    I won’t dismiss the part about evolutionary pressure favouring those hypermasculine traits, but toxic masculinity is more about critiquing aspects of masculinity that are improper or inappropriate in a societal setting. I saw a meme that summed it up nicely: “You’re not a gladiator or a spartan warrior who needs war, you’re a middle manager who needs therapy”
    - hhjinks 3y ago
      If these aspects are inappropriate, why does society continue to reinforce them? If these are just individual acts of toxicity, it would be wrong to call it toxic masculinity.
      - mikrl 3y ago
        Evolutionary pressure. Society is one abstraction, reproduction is another, and they don’t always mesh nicely. Maybe the perfect society for reproduction is one of polyamorous warlord harems or something (this is a hypothetical) Men optimizing for that status quo would be absolutely lethal in our peaceful monogamous society.
otoburb 3y ago
>>When my kid was young and I was out with him the other parents (invariably women) treated me as an oddity and assumed I would be incompetent. That didn't happen to me but I live in a large city where I've come across (many) other dads who seemed to have more flexible schedules as evidenced by said dads showing up for pickup/dropoff and playdates. I'm not sure if there is/was a greater acceptance for fathers taking care of young children more visibly in metropolitan areas.
atypicaluser 3y ago
You wrote: >> Previous generations succumbed badly to gender essentialism... and as ever, left a mess for the next generations. Perhaps previous generations--thousands of them? millions?--realized there's more to gender than blank-slate social constructionism. And the mess is self-created by a younger generation wanting to rebel for want of anything else to rebel against? See how easy it is to apply ageism in the other direction? /s

klik99 3y ago

Yeah exactly. I let this kind of thing slide because obviously the problems facing minorities/women as groups are far worse than the problems facing men as a group, but just shifting the conversation from "I think group A of people is the problem" to "I think group B of people is the problem" is creating downstream problems. And there are very real issues facing men - suicide rates are dramatic enough to indicate that. I think the goal should be reduce social/economic/criminal expectations based on what group(s) a particular individual is lumped in, because we are all simultaneously part of, victims of, and perpetrators of a system that damages people, though obviously some groups are hurt way more than others. Public opinion oversimplifies things to good vs bad and works like a pendulum, and I just hope it doesn't swing too much in the opposite direction. If people saying "men suck" is a temporary by-product of addressing systemic gender inequality then that's a price I'm willing to pay. I've benefited plenty from the power of average white male mediocrity.

FeistySkink 3y ago
There's a 5:1 male:female suicide rate in my home country. This has been going on for decades. "Temporarily" saying "men suck" doesn't help.
- camjohnson26 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - BlargMcLarg 3y ago
    ..and what percentage of men commit homicides? And who are the primary victims of homicides?
  - znpy 3y ago
    Do you also have stats about the victims too?
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]

akomtu 3y ago

[flagged]

gemstones 3y ago
Interestingly, this is a plot point in a very popular Chinese-language sci-fi novel called Death’s End. Humanity is deliberately nudged to take on more feminine qualities to make them a less effective fighting force against a colonizing species. The author had to run his book by the CCP - you get the sense this hints at an accepted strategy in the Chinese mainland. It’s an interesting read.
- ix-ix 3y ago
  Lol this is Alex Jones crap. "The globalists are making their plans public in popular media".
  - Apocryphon 3y ago
    Technically it's called predictive programming. Also it's complete nonsense because if anything, the CPC is afraid of those trends happening: https://www.npr.org/2021/09/02/1033687586/china-ban-effeminate-men-tv-official-morality https://www.npr.org/2021/09/02/1033687586/china-ban-effemina... https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-55926248 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-55926248
    - mikrotikker 3y ago
      > Also it's complete nonsense because if anything, the CPC is afraid of those trends happening: I think you misunderstood something here. The links you posted affirm the premise of the book.
      - shrimp_emoji 3y ago
        The links affirm that everyone's afraid of the same shadow, even the alleged monster casting it.

Gibbon1 3y ago

I've come around to replace 'insert group name' with the word Jews and see how it sounds.

arp242 3y ago
I call this the "Muslim test": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27045005 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27045005 I use "Muslim", mostly because there's been a lot of negativity and discrimination surrounding Muslims in my own country, but obviously whatever works for you.
somewhereoutth 3y ago
[flagged]
- Gibbon1 3y ago
  > Men as a whole class will never be rounded up and slaughtered https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I
  - somewhereoutth 3y ago
    Um, two groups of men fighting each other? But for territory / political reasons, not because 'kill all men'
    - sneed_chucker 3y ago
      The men doing the killing and being killed were largely doing so because they were forced (through conscription) or societally conditioned to enlist. No, it's not like the Holocaust, but it's an example of how men are treated as expendable.
    - Gibbon1 3y ago
      Groups of men drafted into the army and set upon each other.

kevin_thibedeau 3y ago

Misandry is normalized in society. Whenever you encounter a baseless attack on men just reverse the roles and you'll realize that there'd be pitchforks for treating women as anything other than paragons of virtue. Entire entertainment genres are built around portraying men as inept fools who can be looked down upon by the opposite sex. Seinfeld is one of the few sitcoms where a female character is as flawed as the men. You couldn't even do that show today.

Terr_ 3y ago
> Seinfeld is one of the few sitcoms where a female character is as flawed as the men. You couldn't even do that show today. So you observed a whole bunch of modern shows and judged that none met the same standard... Which one of them did you watch that was closest?
enragedcacti 3y ago
> Seinfeld is one of the few sitcoms where a female character is as flawed as the men. You couldn't even do that show today. It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia? Succession? Yellow Jackets? The Righteous Gemstones? Beef? White Lotus? House of The Dragon? You could argue about percentages but it is in fact extremely easy to do a show with flawed female characters today.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- 93po 3y ago
  Interesting, maybe: Are any of those women not white? Aside from Beef, which I'm not sure counts as much since the actor was also the writer and the show doesn't have any main characters that aren't asian.
  - EatingWithForks 3y ago
    What does race of women have to do with the emotional needs of men?
  - 3y ago

arp242 3y ago

Last year there was some graffiti near my house: "Trans rights are human rights!" Okay, fair enough. Then a few metres later, in the same colour and obviously by the same person: "Kill all men!" People will say "yes, but it doesn't mean literally kill all men", and of course it doesn't. But it's not exactly positive, is it?

type0 3y ago
Some people do mean it though edit: radicalism is a real thing
- arp242 3y ago
  I suppose, but those are staggeringly rare and can essentially just be ignored.
- mathgeek 3y ago
  > People will say "yes, but it doesn't mean literally kill all men", and of course it doesn't. As an honest question: why “of course it doesn’t”?
  - breakyerself 3y ago
    Because both sexes are required for the species to survive. Killing all men would mean the end of all women too.
    - yarg 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - yowlingcat 3y ago
        [flagged]
        yarg 3y ago

vkou 3y ago

Your problem here is that if you look black, many racists and bigots won't say what they actually think to your face. (Or they justify it as 'oh, he's one of the good ones') They are often more than happy to confide in what they think of ------------ when they feel they are in a safe space. A friend of mine, who is half-black, but passes as a white guy gets way more of that than he should in North Carolina [1]. [1] It really helps that he's working in a profession that is majority-team-red. Some people really can't help but run their mouth when they think they are preaching to the choir.

rTX5CMRXIfFG 3y ago

I’ve heard people of any sex say that phrase plenty of times but that’s hardly the quintessential case of male “oppression”, if you can call it that. The scenario described in the article makes more sense, is more common, and has more serious consequences—-ignoring the feeling of boys precisely because they are culturally being forced into a certain toxic mode of masculinity—-and even then, I don’t see why you need to pitch this problem against women as if it’s supposed to be a battle for which gender has experienced oppression worse and historically so. The way that Americans have begun to frame their discussions around gender politics has honestly just gotten derailed and even more stupid since around 2016 or so.

shrimp_emoji 3y ago

[flagged]

pclmulqdq 3y ago
Those both sound pretty sexist and racist to me.
a_puppy 3y ago
"Punching up" is still punching. While men are on average more privileged than women, being a man also has disadvantages, and many individual men are actually quite vulnerable. "Punching up" at men causes real harm. Please don't make excuses for misandry.
- dumpsterdiver 3y ago
  It's not even punching up. For every one woman who commits suicide, four men will follow her to the grave the same way. More women claim to be lonely than men... my hypothesis is that women actually talk about being lonely while men just kill themselves at a certain point.
  - oblio 3y ago
    Women actually talk about being lonely - yes, and men don't, and definitely not to other men, because talking about problems is weak and feminine.
    - dumpsterdiver 3y ago
      I don't think it has anything to do with a fear of being considered feminine. Speaking as a man, I think we are just more inclined to talk about things such as ongoing projects, or things that we saw that interest us, such as an MMA fight or a sci-fi movie. I believe we are simply less inclined to talk about our feelings. Why? Well, first of all it's just burdensome. It's not fun, and more importantly, it's not exactly productive talking about feelings. That is a reoccurring point of contention between men and women, yes? Feeling vs doing. If a lady says that she is thirsty, a man's first response will be to get that woman some water. It would be much less common for a man to forgo finding water, and instead query the lady on her current emotional state. "My queen, your thirst is mine. Let us suffer together." No! We're going to get that lady some damn water.

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msla 3y ago

And we have this: https://www.theguardian.com/education/2015/nov/17/row-after-university-of-york-cancels-international-mens-day-event https://www.theguardian.com/education/2015/nov/17/row-after-... > A row has broken out at York University after plans to mark International Men’s Day on Thursday were cancelled following an outcry from staff and students. There is a big rift in feminism which feminists seem loath to acknowledge, preferring instead to claim that it isn't real, it's made up by anti-feminists, and it isn't important even if you can point to actual evidence. Well, it's real, it's important, and despite the posturing, we aren't all ignoring it. More: https://time.com/3432838/emma-watson-feminism-men-women/ https://time.com/3432838/emma-watson-feminism-men-women/ > Just in the past few days, many feminist commentators have taken great umbrage at suggestions that soccer star Hope Solo, currently facing charges for assaulting her sister and teenage nephew, deserves similar censure to football player Ray Rice, who was caught on video striking his fiancée. Their argument boils down to the assertion that violence by men toward their female partners should be singled out because it’s a bigger problem than female violence toward family members. Meanwhile, in Watson’s native England, activists from women’s organizations recently blamed the shortage of services for abused women on efforts to accommodate abused men (despite the fact that, as Guardian columnist and blogger Ally Fogg demonstrated, even the lowest estimates of the prevalence of domestic violence against men suggest that male victims are far less likely than women to get help).