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He seemed especially proud about combining titanium and carbon fibre against the advice of others, which seems to now have been in a pretty active role in the d

by Hamuko 3y ago

He seemed especially proud about combining titanium and carbon fibre against the advice of others, which seems to now have been in a pretty active role in the demise of the Titan. >"I'd like to be remembered as an innovator. I think it was General MacArthur who said "you're remembered for the rules you break." And I've broken some rules to make this. I think I've broken them with logic and good engineering behind me. The carbon fibre and the titanium, there's a rule you don't do that. Well, I did." https://www.reddit.com/r/titanic/comments/14ekh3r/stockton_rush_youre_remembered_for_the_rules_you/ https://www.reddit.com/r/titanic/comments/14ekh3r/stockton_r...

tromp 3y ago
Serotta did too when making this bike: https://www.bigshark.com/articles/serotta-road-bikes-pg318.htm https://www.bigshark.com/articles/serotta-road-bikes-pg318.h...
- dralley 3y ago
  There is a rather large difference between a road bike and a vessel that needs to withstand the pressures of being 4000 meters underneath the ocean.
- CydeWeys 3y ago
  Bicycles are not submersibles.
  - bombcar 3y ago
    They can be, but it’s a one way trip.
  - nradov 3y ago
    Danny MacAskill begs to differ. https://youtu.be/K_7k3fnxPq0 https://youtu.be/K_7k3fnxPq0
bambax 3y ago
James Cameron is extremely critical of the design of the sub, and of Rush's attitude [0]. He says that carbon fiber was a very poor choice and that it had been known for a very long time, and that "deep submerged diving is a mature art". If you think you're going to reinvent the wheel and bypass regulatory bodies and ignore subject experts, and move fast and break things, you're delusional. Any baby can break things; any toddler can break rules. What's hard is to discover new rules, make things that don't break. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rThZLhNF_xg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rThZLhNF_xg
- jacquesm 3y ago
  Exactly. What really gets me is that he would subject passengers - one of which is a teenager - to this kind of risk. It really gets me, that kid probably had absolutely no clue about the real level of risk involved. Carbon is fantastic stuff if used properly, used improperly it will seem to be perfect right up to the point where it fails catastrophically.
  - bambax 3y ago
    The kid's father seems to bear a lot of responsibility in his son's demise. > In the days before the Titan vessel went into the ocean off the coast of Newfoundland, Canada, the 19-year-old university student accompanying his father on the expedition expressed hesitation about going, his aunt said Thursday in an interview. > Azmeh Dawood — the older sister of Pakistani businessman Shahzada Dawood — told NBC News that her nephew, Suleman, informed a relative that he "wasn't very up for it" and felt "terrified" about the trip to explore the wreckage of the Titanic. > But the 19-year-old ended up going aboard OceanGate's 22-foot submersible because the trip fell over Father's Day weekend and he was eager to please his dad, who was passionate about the lore of the Titanic, according to Azmeh. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/titanic-submersible-shahwood-suleman-family-tragedy-rcna90678 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/titanic-submersible-shahw...
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      Ugh, that's so sad. Dying to please your old man. He seems to have had the best intuition about the safety risks involved then.
throw310822 3y ago
I'm curious about this detail, and I have what is surely a very dumb question. Both titanium and carbon fiber are, afaik, known and used for their strength to weight ratio; so aerospace is a natural application. But in deep sea diving is weight a factor at all? Could one just build vehicles with, I don't know, a 30 cm thick steel plate?
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  > But in deep sea diving is weight a factor at all? You need to be able to attain both positive and negative buoyancy, which constrains density within a range, right? That limits design choices like “giant block of steel with a tiny passenger cavity”.
  - CydeWeys 3y ago
    It's super easy to add buoyancy by attaching it to the hull outside the pressure vessel. James Cameron's design uses a metal pressure vessel with an advanced foam composite outside of it for buoyancy.
hef19898 3y ago
And of course he used McArthur, of all the people, as a reference...
adql 3y ago
Well, he now will be remembered, just for inevitable Darwin award
yreg 3y ago
>which seems to now have been in a pretty active role in the demise of the Titan. I know little about the topic but it sounds terribly early to rule what exactly had 'a pretty active role' in the incident. Is it not?
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
stringfood 3y ago
Apparently if you put titanium and carbon fibre next to each other in salt water the titanium begans to corrode at quicker rate. Can read more here: https://www.corrosionpedia.com/galvanic-corrosion-of-metals-connected-to-carbon-fiber-reinforced-polymers/2/1556 https://www.corrosionpedia.com/galvanic-corrosion-of-metals-...
- pmcjones 3y ago
  The article you cite says "Therefore, there is no significant gap between titanium and carbon-fiber-reinforced composite to create galvanic corrosion. This means that commercially pure titanium and its alloys are completely resistant to galvanic corrosion when they are coupled with carbon composites." This seems to be the opposite of what you are asserting.
- ddoolin 3y ago
  > Therefore, there is no significant gap between titanium and carbon-fiber-reinforced composite to create galvanic corrosion. This means that commercially pure titanium and its alloys are completely resistant to galvanic corrosion when they are coupled with carbon composites.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    Small things, e.g. insignificant rebellions, ah, gaps, do add up. I see a problem in stress loads so. Titanium and carbon fibre composites behave differently under load. And at those depths, they are under a lot of load. These small differences induce additional stress at the critical joint between bulk heads and submarine body. That stress causes, over time, material fatigue. That's why those components are, in most othee use cases, fatigue tested to their breaking point. Knowing that point, allows you to define a save service life for those components and replace thek way before they fail.
throw9away6 3y ago
Titanium and carbon are meant for each other. Nothing innovative there unless we’re taking about the 1950s

by Hamuko 3y ago

tromp 3y ago

Serotta did too when making this bike: https://www.bigshark.com/articles/serotta-road-bikes-pg318.htm https://www.bigshark.com/articles/serotta-road-bikes-pg318.h...

dralley 3y ago
There is a rather large difference between a road bike and a vessel that needs to withstand the pressures of being 4000 meters underneath the ocean.
CydeWeys 3y ago
Bicycles are not submersibles.
- bombcar 3y ago
  They can be, but it’s a one way trip.
- nradov 3y ago
  Danny MacAskill begs to differ. https://youtu.be/K_7k3fnxPq0 https://youtu.be/K_7k3fnxPq0

bambax 3y ago

James Cameron is extremely critical of the design of the sub, and of Rush's attitude [0]. He says that carbon fiber was a very poor choice and that it had been known for a very long time, and that "deep submerged diving is a mature art". If you think you're going to reinvent the wheel and bypass regulatory bodies and ignore subject experts, and move fast and break things, you're delusional. Any baby can break things; any toddler can break rules. What's hard is to discover new rules, make things that don't break. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rThZLhNF_xg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rThZLhNF_xg

jacquesm 3y ago
Exactly. What really gets me is that he would subject passengers - one of which is a teenager - to this kind of risk. It really gets me, that kid probably had absolutely no clue about the real level of risk involved. Carbon is fantastic stuff if used properly, used improperly it will seem to be perfect right up to the point where it fails catastrophically.
- bambax 3y ago
  The kid's father seems to bear a lot of responsibility in his son's demise. > In the days before the Titan vessel went into the ocean off the coast of Newfoundland, Canada, the 19-year-old university student accompanying his father on the expedition expressed hesitation about going, his aunt said Thursday in an interview. > Azmeh Dawood — the older sister of Pakistani businessman Shahzada Dawood — told NBC News that her nephew, Suleman, informed a relative that he "wasn't very up for it" and felt "terrified" about the trip to explore the wreckage of the Titanic. > But the 19-year-old ended up going aboard OceanGate's 22-foot submersible because the trip fell over Father's Day weekend and he was eager to please his dad, who was passionate about the lore of the Titanic, according to Azmeh. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/titanic-submersible-shahwood-suleman-family-tragedy-rcna90678 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/titanic-submersible-shahw...
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    Ugh, that's so sad. Dying to please your old man. He seems to have had the best intuition about the safety risks involved then.

throw310822 3y ago

I'm curious about this detail, and I have what is surely a very dumb question. Both titanium and carbon fiber are, afaik, known and used for their strength to weight ratio; so aerospace is a natural application. But in deep sea diving is weight a factor at all? Could one just build vehicles with, I don't know, a 30 cm thick steel plate?

dragonwriter 3y ago
> But in deep sea diving is weight a factor at all? You need to be able to attain both positive and negative buoyancy, which constrains density within a range, right? That limits design choices like “giant block of steel with a tiny passenger cavity”.
- CydeWeys 3y ago
  It's super easy to add buoyancy by attaching it to the hull outside the pressure vessel. James Cameron's design uses a metal pressure vessel with an advanced foam composite outside of it for buoyancy.

hef19898 3y ago

And of course he used McArthur, of all the people, as a reference...

adql 3y ago

Well, he now will be remembered, just for inevitable Darwin award

yreg 3y ago

>which seems to now have been in a pretty active role in the demise of the Titan. I know little about the topic but it sounds terribly early to rule what exactly had 'a pretty active role' in the incident. Is it not?

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

stringfood 3y ago

Apparently if you put titanium and carbon fibre next to each other in salt water the titanium begans to corrode at quicker rate. Can read more here: https://www.corrosionpedia.com/galvanic-corrosion-of-metals-connected-to-carbon-fiber-reinforced-polymers/2/1556 https://www.corrosionpedia.com/galvanic-corrosion-of-metals-...

pmcjones 3y ago
The article you cite says "Therefore, there is no significant gap between titanium and carbon-fiber-reinforced composite to create galvanic corrosion. This means that commercially pure titanium and its alloys are completely resistant to galvanic corrosion when they are coupled with carbon composites." This seems to be the opposite of what you are asserting.
ddoolin 3y ago
> Therefore, there is no significant gap between titanium and carbon-fiber-reinforced composite to create galvanic corrosion. This means that commercially pure titanium and its alloys are completely resistant to galvanic corrosion when they are coupled with carbon composites.
- hef19898 3y ago
  Small things, e.g. insignificant rebellions, ah, gaps, do add up. I see a problem in stress loads so. Titanium and carbon fibre composites behave differently under load. And at those depths, they are under a lot of load. These small differences induce additional stress at the critical joint between bulk heads and submarine body. That stress causes, over time, material fatigue. That's why those components are, in most othee use cases, fatigue tested to their breaking point. Knowing that point, allows you to define a save service life for those components and replace thek way before they fail.

throw9away6 3y ago

Titanium and carbon are meant for each other. Nothing innovative there unless we’re taking about the 1950s