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Stockton Rush (OceanGate's CEO) was known in the Seattle tech community [0] My understanding (very much not first hand) is that he was seen as an expert in the
by seattle_anon 3y ago
Stockton Rush (OceanGate's CEO) was known in the Seattle tech community [0]
My understanding (very much not first hand) is that he was seen as an expert in the specific engineering disciplines necessary to safely build and operate deep sea submersibles like Titan.
He was also apparently a father to members of the Seattle tech community, who are no doubt grieving at the moment.
Please remember that, for some members of the HN community, this one hits close to home.
[0] Talk at last year's GeekWire Summit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PGpjEDc96I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PGpjEDc96I
- king_magic 3y agoHe killed 4 people with his negligence. Not someone to remember as a hero.
- bambax 3y agoGood video. Some excerpts: "If you're not breaking things, you're not innovating. If you're operating in a known environment as most submersible manufacturers do, they don't break things." (8:49) "Our rule is we risk capital, we don't risk people." (9:56) "We used the same prepreg that's used on the 787." (11:15) And my favorite: "When you're outside the box, it's really hard to tell how far outside the box you really are." (8:30) He does seem to be far outside the box now. But the most significant quote IMHO is the one about "the same prepreg that's used on the 787". Like they often tell you that phone holders for bikes are made of "aircraft-grade aluminium" (which usually means it's 6061, the most common alloy). It's a strong indication of bullshit -- name dropping that doesn't have anything to do with the subject matter. In the rest of the presentation he seems nice enough, and truly passionate about deep sea exploration. So maybe he was a cool guy, I don't know. But in the end it's his hubris that killed him and his clients.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- oasisbob 3y ago> name dropping that doesn't have anything to do with the subject matter This is a good point. However, it's probably worth pointing out that in the past few decades -- at least here in the PNW -- carbon fiber availability to the hobbiest and small producer has been spotty. I'd refer to Boeing and being the same 787 carbon fiber for my personal projects, but that's just because they're made from Boeing offcuts donated to a local University. At the time (ca 2006), even bare weave was hard to obtain from private suppliers. Its feasible that Rush may have had help from Boeing sourcing his material, which puts comments like that in a different light.
- gamblor956 3y agoAircraft grade aluminum is 2024 or 7075, not 6061, because those alloys are more resistant to fatigue from repeated pressurization cycles. 6061 is more commonly used in automotives than in aircraft.
- cowmoo728 3y agothe comment above you is correct that consumer goods will often brag about "aircraft grade" when referring to 6061. like flashlights, tools, combs, pens, cufflinks, money clips, etc.
- Kailhus 3y agoThis made me realise how little I know about alumiunium and made me summarise this from a quick wiki search: - “2024 aluminium alloy is an aluminium alloy, with copper as the primary alloying element. It is used in applications requiring high strength to weight ratio, as well as good fatigue resistance. It is weldable only through friction welding, and has average machinability. - “7075 aluminium alloy is an aluminium alloy with zinc as the primary alloying element. It has excellent mechanical properties and exhibits good ductility, high strength, toughness, and good resistance to fatigue. It is more susceptible to embrittlement than many other aluminium alloys because of microsegregation, but has significantly better corrosion resistance than the alloys from the 2000 series.” - “6061 is a precipitation-hardened aluminium alloy, containing magnesium and silicon as its major alloying elements. It has good mechanical properties, exhibits good weldability, and is very commonly extruded. It is one of the most common alloys of aluminium for general-purpose us.”
- jacquesm 3y agoThere are 8 basic alloys of aluminum based on the alloying element(s) (or none for 1000, which is pure) with the 8000 serving as a sort of catch-all for various combinations that don't warrant a category all their own. The total number of formulations is quite large and the properties, machinability, weldability, various strengths, density, resistance to fatigue (and post processing options, such as hardening) vary considerably. Materials science is a fascinating field.
- carabiner 3y ago> It's a strong indication of bullshit -- name dropping that doesn't have anything to do with the subject matter It means you're using a material that's been vetted over decades in life-critical applications in harsh conditions by expert engineers all over the world. Aerospace aluminums today are derived from Japanese alloys invented in WW2 and were a major innovation in metal aircraft. It's much more expensive than steel, but we use it because of favorable characteristics. Here's an overview of different aluminums and where they're used: https://www.aircraftaluminium.com/blog https://www.aircraftaluminium.com/blog
- gregors 3y agothis wasn't an aircraft
- buffington 3y agoThe reference to "aircraft" wasn't about airplanes or submersibles, it was about how the term "aircraft-grade" is a meaningless marketing buzzword. It's obvious to me, and I imagine a lot of readers, that a submarine isn't an aircraft. I think the reference to the use of the bullshit marketing term is also obvious.
- rightbyte 3y ago"Military grade" is another one of those marketing phrases that pisses me off. What does it even mean? That it is green and is more expensive than it should be?
- hef19898 3y agoThere are some compabies that actually do test theor products according to military standards. Now, ideally they would tell you which ones. Whether or not those standards are better than theor civilain counterparts is a different story.
- buffington 3y agoI think I read a comment on HN that described what "military grade" meant: stuff made as cheaply as possible by the lowest bidding contractor that sometimes is fit for purpose. That said, I think there are times when it does mean something. I believe military grade/milspec chips/ICs are often engineered to be more resilient to environmental factors like heat and vibration, interference, etc. If I'm wrong about that, I suspect it won't be long before we learn if I'm right.
- gregors 3y agoNow might be a good time to revisit the "calling yourself an engineer" means something specifically debate.
- bombcar 3y agoI’ve seen it said you’re not an engineer unless your job and/or life is on the line, under which standard he’d qualify.
- mc32 3y agoThe question are: Why use novel vessels when tried and true work. Why did they have to try a carbon-fiber wrapped vessel? The bathysphere went all the way down to the Marianas trench --many decades ago. Why try something new in unforgiving environments? Why fire an engineer after he started raising questions about safety? It seems like there was a bit of a cavalier attitude that cost five people their lives.
- perihelions 3y agoI don't believe that one was particularly safe in its design either? Just quoting the most colorful parts of Wikipedia's history: - "Oxygen was supplied from high-pressure cylinders carried inside the sphere, while pans of soda lime [hn: sodium hydroxide?] and calcium chloride were mounted inside the sphere's walls to absorb exhaled CO2 and moisture.[6] Air was to be circulated past these trays by the Bathysphere's occupants using palm-leaf fans.[2]" - "Suddenly, without the slightest warning, the bolt was torn from our hands, and the mass of heavy metal shot across the deck like the shell from a gun. The trajectory was almost straight, and the brass bolt hurtled into the steel winch thirty feet [9.1 m] away across the deck and sheared a half-inch [13 mm] notch gouged out by the harder metal. This was followed by a solid cylinder of water, which slackened after a while into a cataract, pouring out the hole in the door, some air mingled with the water, looking like hot steam, instead of compressed air shooting through ice-cold water.[6]" - "The ocean during this dive was rougher than it had been during any of their previous dives, and as the Freedom rocked on the surface, its motion was transmitted down the steel cable, causing the Bathysphere to swing from side to side like a pendulum. As the Bathysphere descended, Barton succumbed to seasickness and vomited inside it. However, the first half of the radio transmission had already been broadcast, and neither Beebe nor Barton wished to cancel its second half, so they continued their descent.[5] ... the Bathysphere was still rocking wildly and Beebe and Barton were both bruised and bleeding from being knocked about inside it." - "During their first test dive, they demanded to be pulled up after descending only four feet (1.2 m) because the sphere had begun to leak; they soon discovered this was because Tee-Van had neglected to fasten all of the bolts that hold the hatch shut.[2] Another problem occurred on their second test dive, during which they discovered that the lower end of the rubber hose holding the power cable and phone line had begun to deteriorate, and they spent the rest of the day reversing the hose's direction so that the end which was deteriorating would be the end above the water.[5]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathysphere https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathysphere
- frakkingcylons 3y ago> He does seem to be far outside the box now. Very poor taste to say this now.
- hef19898 3y agoThe 787 preprec is actually pretty good. At holding a pressure delta <1 bar on the inside...
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- jjulius 3y ago>... he was seen as an expert in the specific engineering disciplines necessary to safely build and operate deep sea submersibles like Titan. And yet he called safety "pure waste"... https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-06-21/titanic-tour-operator-has-faced-questions-on-safety-for-years https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-06-21/titanic-t...
- Turskarama 3y agoThe thing about the Seattle tech community is that they have no idea about building submarines, so who they think is an expert on building submarines is irrelevant. People really need to remember that tech bros aren't really smarter than most people, they're usually just more willing to take risks.
- hef19898 3y agoConsidering the risk some typical tech bros take, they don't seem to be that intelligent to be begin with...
- xwdv 3y agoI don’t see any members of HN standing up for Stockton Rush. Nor do I imagine they would after his carelessness killed several people. Being seen as an expert doesn’t mean you are one, and it’s unfortunate the Seattle tech community didn’t have a better role model to look up to.
- housemusicfan 3y agoI'm going to be very blunt here. I've seen enough interview footage in the last 48 hours to know that this guy comes off as the Elizabeth Holmes of ocean exploration. Five people are now dead (including himself) because he convinced them to climb into his Lyle Lanley water contraption and pay him a quarter of a million $ each to do so. Anyone that has sat through 15 minutes of year one engineering ethics would know what he was doing was extremely reckless and the obvious consequences prevailed. I have zero empathy for this guy.
- windowshopping 3y ago[flagged]
- stonogo 3y agoHe was not recognized as an expert by other deep-sea submerisble experts. He was repeatedly warned about safety issue with this design. These events are tragic, but they were predictable and avoidable and that makes it frustrating.
- Workaccount2 3y agoAnother testament to the magic of speaking confidently about something to others who know nothing about that something.
- wepple 3y agoI often figure that you only need about 25% more knowledge/expertise on a topic than others to seem like an expert, and for them to be incapable of actually judging your knowledge
- AH4oFVbPT4f8 3y agoSpecifically warned 5 years ago by his own employee and fired him as a thank you to boot. "OceanGate fired employee David Lochridge in 2018 after he expressed concern about the submersible's safety" source https://www.cbsnews.com/news/titanic-submarine-oceangate-hull-safety-lawsuit/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/titanic-submarine-oceangate-hul...
- asynchronous 3y agoNot gonna shed a tear given how avoidable this entire tragedy was, and how terribly managed and selected his engineering team was.
- AH4oFVbPT4f8 3y agoI hope the other souls onboard fully understood the risk of death, otherwise that isn't fair to them. To relate it to flying in an airplane, “If you take one flight a day, you would on average need to fly every day for 55,000 years before being involved in a fatal crash.” I'll take those odds. Take a deep dive in an experimental vessel with public safety concerns expressed over years, nope I'm out.
- dkjaudyeqooe 3y agoIt also looked so terribly janky. I feel like all the lights were flashing red for this craft, but maybe people were swayed by assurances from people who were a bit too enthusiastic about their product.
- adql 3y agoBillionaires get to the money by the art of charisma and bullshitting so it is entirely possible they got bullshitted all the way to the bottom on that too
- Hamuko 3y agoThey all had to sign multi-page waivers that mention "death" no less than three times on the first page.
- hotpotamus 3y agoIt also occurs to me that there should be no more sophisticated consumer than a billionaire. If one really wanted, I'd imagine they could build their own submersible to their own safety specifications.
- mcguire 3y agoHe's also on record as saying things like, "It's obscenely safe because they have all these regulations. But it also hasn't innovated or grown — because they have all these regulations." (https://www.insider.com/titan-submarine-ceo-complained-about-obscenely-safe-regulations-2023-6 https://www.insider.com/titan-submarine-ceo-complained-about...)
- stef25 3y agoLOL, Guardian published information about documents describing the danger of this thing, the lack of regulations and how deep sea exploration of this kind is probably finished for many years to come. Him saying "it's obscenely safe" just sounds like a Silicon Valley CEO saying they're going to save the world by selling their users' personal data under the table. EDIT seems like I interpreted this wrong according to comment below.
- olalonde 3y agoThe "obscenely safe" remark was directed at "regulated" vessels, not at his own sub. He was acknowledging that he was taking risks by not conforming to regulations.
- stef25 3y agoThanks, my bad.
- windexh8er 3y agoFrom what I understand he was also complaining about those regulations holding back the private industry and also it's been stated as of late that he's on record saying how he's broken rules. That among allegations of a safety director being fired in 2015 for pointing out design safety oversights. [0] I don't think it's great to make this guy into a folk hero just because he was pushing the limits. Imagine, for a second, how this would be reacted to in the aviation space. If the CEO cut corners then that should be his legacy. Great people can be flawed. Flaws can be fatal. It's just a shame if those flaws weren't properly portrayed to those who dove with him. [0] https://fortune.com/2023/06/21/titan-titanic-missing-sub-david-lochridge-safety-concerns-sacked-oceangate-stockton-rush-hamish-harding/ https://fortune.com/2023/06/21/titan-titanic-missing-sub-dav...
- ommpto 3y ago"Two months later, OceanGate faced similarly dire calls from more than three dozen people — industry leaders, deep-sea explorers and oceanographers — who warned in a letter to its chief executive, Stockton Rush, that the company’s “experimental” approach and its decision to forgo a traditional assessment could lead to potentially “catastrophic” problems with the Titanic mission." https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/20/us/oceangate-titanic-missing-submersible.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/20/us/oceangate-titanic-miss... letter (pdf): https://int.nyt.com/data/documenttools/marine-technology-society-committee-2018-letter-to-ocean-gate/eddb63615a7b3764/full.pdf https://int.nyt.com/data/documenttools/marine-technology-soc...
- scotty79 3y agoI don't understand why they didn't just drop it to the bottom of the ocean without people hundred times to see if it still holds. Who experiments with a crew in the age of remote control sensors and computers?
- taberiand 3y agoI'm guessing they couldn't afford to without going bankrupt.
- jacquesm 3y agoThen they couldn't afford it, period.
- The_Colonel 3y agoIn the end all participants consented and were aware of the risks. There's no absolutely safe way to dive that deep, just like there's no absolutely safe way to ascend K2. People still want to do it.
- rurp 3y agoK2 is attempted by experts using their own gear under their own power. They know exactly what risks they are taking. This submersible was basically a rollercoaster ride that wasn't up to spec. If a participant doesn't need to know or do anything on a trip, they are going for a ride not an adventure, and they aren't expected to be safety experts in the field. Also one of the passengers was a teenager who was concerned about going, but went along to make his dad happy. Hardly a clear eyed risk taker who was fine with the risk.
- seabird 3y agoIt's sad that they're dead, but all parties had time to brace for this inevitability. I can't imagine any engineer (save a software engineer) seeing this guy's attitude and not seeing this coming from a mile away.
- bumby 3y agoYou’d be surprised. I used to work at a hazardous test site and there was a lot of complacency. Sometimes it was just bad engineering, sometimes it was arrogance about their ability, or something else. It taught me we’re all humans first, and all susceptible to human biases regardless of credentials or prestige.
- predictabl3 3y agoPSG, WSP. Best I can say is he died doing what he loved. I do feel awful for the kid seemingly unhappily dragged into the trip.
- jacquesm 3y agoI really couldn't care less. As far as I can see he was exactly what's wrong with people chasing money and forgetting about the possible consequences of their attitude towards other people's lives. I'm sure his relatives are grieving, but my sympathy goes to the family of the passengers first. As for the CEO's credentials: nature can't be fooled.
- cogman10 3y agoAgreed. By my estimation he committed manslaughter with his recklessness. He's every bit as bad a drunk driver that kills 4 people in an accident.
- ayemel 3y agoShit take. A drunk driver kills uninvolved people. The people on the sub knew (most) of the risks.
- stickfigure 3y agoI don't know the guy, but this seems off the mark. If he wanted to get rich, spending 11 years on a money losing operation seems an unlikely choice. My take is that it was a passion project, a passion he shares with apparently a substantial number of well-to-do people. I don't judge.