14 ms·

I give up on free software phones (2019)

151 points by luu 3y ago

gigatexal 3y ago
GrapheneOS seems to be the winner these days.
- noman-land 3y ago
  GrapheneOS is wonderful.
  - Freak_NL 3y ago
    It is, but limited to the (excellent) Google Pixel devices.
    - noman-land 3y ago
      Agreed. It's a super unfortunate situation, but I'm glad that even this tiny sliver exists for now.
- rationalist 3y ago
  Does anyone run CalyxOS, which is put together by the Calyx Institute?
  - zorrolovsky 3y ago
    I have been running CalyxOS on a Pixel 6a for 6 months and I'm very happy with it. It does everything I need and found no big annoyances so far. A minor issue is MyFitnessPal not reading barcodes but that's it.
  - neilv 3y ago
    I tried CalyxOS before GrapheneOS, a few years ago... I can't speak to CalyxOS now, but at the time, it seemed to be mostly just a hodgepodge of "this is a 'privacy' app; throw it in" without much coherence or polish beyond that. Then I tried GrapheneOS, which was driven by Daniel Micay, who seems a hardcore security-minded person. GrapheneOS seemed to be working beating AOSP internals into better security shape, and very slowly tackling the apps. So, with GrapheneOS, it seemed I was starting with as clean and trustworthy an Android as one can get (to the extend Android can ever be clean or trustworthy), and in the interim I could add missing open source apps to my install. (Email, maps, SSH, chat, etc.) GrapheneOS isn't the ideal I could imagine, but it exists, and I feel less violated by GrapheneOS than by other phone in the last ~15 years or so.
- logicprog 3y ago
  Been using it daily for almost a year now, and yeah. God it's clean. I love it.
barbariangrunge 3y ago
I expected this to at least mention the pine phone, the librem, or the Ubuntu phone (which was charming). It’s just about de-googled android and how it doesn’t work very well due to how everything depends on google play services
- Un1corn 3y ago
  When I wrote it, from the options you mentioned, only Ubuntu phone existed and it was after Canonical abandoned it. So in 2019 it really felt like Android was the only option.
- novia 3y ago
  It did mention the Librem.
- fikama 3y ago
  do not forget postmarketOS project :)
- the_third_wave 3y ago
  > ...de-googled android and how it doesn’t work very well due to how everything depends on google play services Even that aspect is wildly overblown in my experience of using Google-free Android devices for the last 12 years. Yes, the thing will prompt you to install some Google-thing because it supposedly does not work without it - there are currently two such notifications on one of my devices telling me so. The thing is, nearly everything I throw at the device works even though some things complain about the supposed lack of Google services. I click away the warning if it appears and just use the software, this includes e.g. BankID - a Swedish electronic ID provider - and similar apps. I do not have microG installed on my main device either, I just forego on using Google services altogether. All in all I think the current situation with de-Googled Android is quite useable. If ever some mobile thing comes along which more resembles the way software is installed on personal computers - i.e. install Linux or BSD of choice, add required software, configure accounts and you're in the game - I might move to that but until such a time I'll keep on using AOSP-derived Android distributions in combination with self-hosted services.
linmob 3y ago
Please add a [2019] to the title.
- LatticeAnimal 3y ago
  [meta-commentary] HN should require a date field on all submissions and then should only show the date if the article is older than a specified time (like 1yr) (or always show the date but not in the title)
  - lolinder 3y ago
    Some web pages don't have a date.
    - wang_li 3y ago
      Those web pages should be removed from the internet.
    - LatticeAnimal 3y ago
      Then make it opt-out, or make it default to today's date, or ... There are solutions to this problem that are better than the way it currently works.
- MandieD 3y ago
  Done, after seeing the author say it was written then.
recvonline 3y ago
Related: https://drewdevault.com/2023/06/16/Mobile-linux-retrospective.html https://drewdevault.com/2023/06/16/Mobile-linux-retrospectiv...
- Arnavion 3y ago
  >But pmOS really suffers from reliability issues – both on edge and on stable it seemed like every update broke some things and fixed others, [...] such as the media controls on my bluetooth headphones breaking [...] major showstoppers such as broken phone calls, SMS, [...] all of my icons disappearing from the UI I would be surprised if these issues were because of pmOS and not because of Alpine. For example everything involved with bluetooth headphones or with calls or with SMS is in Alpine, with the exception of one ALSA UCM config file from the pmOS device-pine64-pinephone package that hasn't changed since 2021. In the ~2 years that I've had my PP (running pmOS Edge), the only time phone calls were broken were because of pipewire updates in Alpine repo. SMS has never broken. I don't use bluetooth headphones so I can't say anything about that. Alpine is maintained somewhat "amateurishly" compared to other distros. Eg one of the main Alpine devs frequently makes commits to the packages repo without any sort of merge request or review process, which sometimes introduces new bugs and they then make more commits to fix. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, quite the opposite; it's just what the dev culture is, and it means fixes and changes go in quickly without bureaucracy etc. (And I'm pretty sure ddevault is aware of this.) Also while Alpine does involve pmOS folks in discussions about issues that might affect them (and many of the pmOS folks are also Alpine folks), things do slip through the crack many times, like the pipewire issue I mentioned and many others. At the same time I expect these things to happen on edge but not on stable, so I'm surprised that he says he experienced them on stable too. I only use Edge myself so I can't say for certain. In any case, to the overall point of having a phone that is 24/7/365 reliable at calls and SMS, I agree that "PinePhone running pmOS Edge" will not meet that requirement, for both software and hardware reasons.
2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
> Remove the search engine setting. Hard-code the search engine to Google How is that not monopoly behavior? Why don't they just put an iMessage alternative in Android at that point?
- wombat-man 3y ago
  isn't that just RCS?
  - 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
    No. I've read that Google is not allowed put iMessage-like features into the stock messaging app because it would run afoul of antitrust. Ironically, Apple can do this because they own everything.
    - subarctic 3y ago
      It sounds like Google's way around this is what they've been doing for years at this point: slowly replacing AOSP builtins like the stock messaging app with separate, proprietary Google apps.
    - richiebful1 3y ago
      I'm not sure what the stock messaging app is anymore, but "Messages by Google" accomplishes what we're talking about [1] 1. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.android.apps.messaging https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.and...
      - 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
        Right, I don't believe that's part of AOSP but is a Google app. I don't believe all phones ship with that though my Pixel does. Do Samsung phones ship with that?
      - muppetman 3y ago
        That's a closed source proprietary Google app that relies on Google Play Services to work.
superkuh 3y ago
Giving up on free software phones is the first step. Now give up on software phones and just use a tiny non-computer cell phone that does text and voice. The removable battery will last a week and you won't even notice it in your pocket. The firmware will last the entire life of the phone, never needing to be updated. Replace the car GPS navigation functionality with a dedicated car GPS and you have most of the same functionality but with better longer lasting devices.
- rationalist 3y ago
  And miss out on, or pay for, GPS updates and lose out on real-time traffic reports.
  - hsishzixgsi 3y ago
    traffic is pretty consistent everywhere. you also "miss" being sent to a known slow and long rout just because the buggy algorithm wants to bucket test some random path close to the daily rush hour.
    - rationalist 3y ago
      > traffic is pretty consistent everywhere. Yes, accidents always happen in the same spot at the same time on the same days, and new people visiting new places always know about those things. I have had Google try to send me on slower routes, but I use my brain and drive the more logical way and it updates the map accordingly. Though most people are not logical, and such practices theoretically help everyone overall including the petson who is sent on a different route that time.
  - dmm 3y ago
    > GPS updates I load free OSM maps on my GPS.
  - Marsymars 3y ago
    My Garmin GPS has been getting free map updates for years and gives real-time traffic reports.
timthelion 3y ago
I use lineage on oneplus phones and have no problems. I can't do internet banking and a bunch of other non-free things, but really, who needs that? I have a web browser. The only thing that doesn't work is google meet and google docs and google drive because they intentionally break the mobile experience in the web. But there is a simple solution. Simply don't use google services. If/when my employer demands that of me (occasionally I hear murmurings) I just tell him I'm online 9-5 on my laptop and if he needs me he can call. I'm happy with my lineage.
- kelnos 3y ago
  > I can't do internet banking and a bunch of other non-free things, but really, who needs that? I do, and so do a majority of smartphone users. Good for you that you are fine doing without it, but most people will not accept that trade off. I ran CyanogenMod back when that was a thing, but at that time SafetyNet didn't exist, and it was a rare event when an app that ran on Google-approved Android didn't run on CM. Nowadays I can't run an alternative ROM without sacrificing things I care about using.
  - Certhas 3y ago
    If you're in the EU your web based online banking requires 2FA which is typically provided by phone biometry+app. No idea if these work on Lineage, etc...
- secondcoming 3y ago
  I use two banks in the UK and both are pushing to use their app over their website. Even logging in to the websites is a chore.
- friend_and_foe 3y ago
  I have a similar setup and have no problems with online banking. I hear this from people, what exactly is the problem?
  - timthelion 3y ago
user_7832 3y ago
On a similar note I've been wanting to buy and use a fully "free" phone - one where I have complete control over most if not all things. But it appears to me that unless you use a regular "phone", there is no way you can DIY your way into building a "modern" phone bit by bit like how a desktop could be made.* Calling/4g/5g require specific hardware that seems difficult to integrate at a hobbyist level (unlike say installing Linux which is possible in an afternoon even for some not familiar with it.) And even though you could get android to run on a raspberry pi, it appears impossible to use something like google pay (which likely requires safetynet) on it. I'm not sure if the reason is the "blobs" that ARM uses instead of drivers but it is disappointing that I can't take something like the Snapdragon 8 Gen 2 dev kit, dualboot linux and android and use it like a phone-laptop hybrid. /Disappointed rant over (Here's the kit - https://developer.qualcomm.com/hardware/snapdragon-8-gen-2-hdk https://developer.qualcomm.com/hardware/snapdragon-8-gen-2-h...) * - technically even laptops like with an SBC or the framework board. I can make the hardware but the software challenges seem huge. If anyone familiar with ARM development has any info/suggestions, I'd love to know more.
- gigel82 3y ago
  Are you saying you can build a modern desktop without any binary blobs? Full control of all firmware (including the CPU microcode and things like Intel ME)? What about WiFi cards? I'd say that hasn't been true for at least 20 years.
  - user_7832 3y ago
    > Are you saying you can build a modern desktop without any binary blobs? Full control of all firmware (including the CPU microcode and things like Intel ME)? What about WiFi cards? I'd say that hasn't been true for at least 20 years. Not exactly. What I mean is the average x64 Intel/AMD device is relatively much more "controllable" than an equivalent smartphone, assuming decent BIOS/UEFI options are provided. If I want to customize the looks with rainmeter, or even system-level tweaks (eg mactype), it's relatively trivial on desktop OSes (possibly excluding recent locked-down MacOs versions). I can even jump between Windows and Linux and Hackintosh/MacOs and BSD as I have a "pretty decent" level of control. A rooted android phone is also quite decent, however issues start creeping in the further you stray from what your manufacturer provided. It starts of with things like Widevine/DRM not playing nice (unless you have a Titan M chip or something similar), and the further you go (stock rom -> custom rom with gapps/microG -> deGoogled rom), the more painful it becomes to even use ""basics" like whatsapp. I guess all this is a very roundabout way of saying that desktop OS is a first class citizen (mostly), while mobile OSes (which are necessary for booking an Uber/paying at the checkout POS/navigating with Google Maps with turn-by-turn nav) do not have other freedoms. And while the hardware absolutely exists for an arm board to do it all with the right daughterboards, doing mobile stuff on a desktop is impossible, and doing desktop stuff on mobile is limiting thanks to software.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
jeroenhd 3y ago
> a constant notification just so it will be able to send me push notifications That's because stuff running in the background in a way that cannot be optimized by the system must inform the user it's doing background operations. I think that's a good idea. Hiding the notification is easy (hold it to enter the notification settings and disable that specific notification category) and it clearly shows which apps are killing your battery life, hopefully making the entire platform less dependent on aggressive task killers.
gnramires 3y ago
Any updates on the situation in 2023?
- zorrolovsky 3y ago
  I use CalyxOS on a Pixel 6a and a LineageOS on a OnePlus 6. No micro G on any of them. Honestly, I have absolutely no issues with CalyxOS and I use mainstream apps like: UK Banking (Starling and HSBC), Whatsapp, Telegram, MyFitnessPal, some airlines and local bus apps... I guess your mileage might vary. If you're keen on a particular app and you can't make it work, that's a frustration. So far I haven't found any reason to come back to a standard OS, and I appreciate my phone not sending constant signals to Apple or Google to the tune of hundreds per day.
  - nelblu 3y ago
    I use calyxos as well and have microg disabled. WhatsApp works fine, signal, telgram works great, fairemail client for emails, davx5 for contact syncing etc. I don't use any google apps expects camera app (which I have disabled data access using firewall), but I have a feeling those may not work so well on calyxos. Only problem - which I actually think is a feature is that I don't get any notifications for a lot of apps, unless I actually open the app. I really think this is a great thing because most of these apps that use google services for notifications are just sending marketing modifications which I would have blocked anyway. I do sometimes miss WhatsApp call because the notification doesn't work properly but I have told all my friends and family that they can contact me on signal for fastest response.
    - anonymousDan 3y ago
      Is it possible to uninstall all browsers (including Chrome) in Calyxos? Most of the time I waste on my phone is in the browser and I would love to have a browserless but otherwise connected device.
jancsika 3y ago
Someone should do a Linux phone that scales way back: 1. you can dial phone numbers somehow 2. you can talk on the phone 3. you can hear the person on the other line 4. the cell reception on the phone is decent quality 5. antenna is properly placed for very good reception 6. basic SMS works, all the time 7. has been extensively tested to work with a single carrier, any other carrier is no warranty 8. boot time and shutdown time are so small that it opportunistically shuts down instead of suspend 9. bonus goal: contacts, can maybe play snake Librem 5 fails #5 and #8 (and can't really succeed at #8 unless you just drop into a command line, but then you wouldn't be able to input phone numbers). I've read some reports that #1, #2, and #3 have improved enough to be usable. On #7, they offer a bundle with a simcard for a carrier that was tested with the phone. (Doubt it was extensively tested, though.) Of the little I've read about Pinephone and Pinephone Pro, they've had problems with #3, #6, and #7, and #8. Overall, however, both appear as a smartphone complete with messaging and browsers. But Librem 5 can't do hardware acceleration for Firefox ESR (because the etnaviv driver doesn't have recent enough OpenGL features for webrender to work). Pinephone is too slow to browse. I'm not sure about Pinephone Pro (though I'd be quite surprised if it passes the Firefox webrender tests). I'd much prefer a much more basic device that gets all the basics right, and then be pleasantly surprised that I can play mp3s on it, too.
- SketchySeaBeast 3y ago
  Doesn't #8's opportunistic shutdown prevent it from functioning as a phone and receiving calls?
  - jancsika 3y ago
    Damn, I guess I unwittingly revealed my phonecall preferences. :) Edit: Isn't there some kind of wake-on-lan on arm chips that the Baseband OS could use?
  - pengaru 3y ago
    Not necessarily, if the cell modem stays powered on and can "wake" the application processor into booting when a call/sms is received.
harwoodr 3y ago
I really wish there was a true and modern successor to the Nokia n900 I had ages ago... it was an awesome device.
- jaimex2 3y ago
  That thing could have saved Nokia if they went all in. The community around it was amazing. They chased trends instead and couldn't keep up.
downWidOutaFite 3y ago
I hoped Amazon's non-Play devices would be enough to keep most developers from being fully captured by Google. Unfortunately they haven't been popular enough in many cases.
blendergeek 3y ago
Related (sort of): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36353960 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36353960
reddisbad 3y ago
The hardware and software stacks of all of the components of a smartphone are at the pinnacle of modern engineering, requiring an uncountable number of engineers and consumers to maintain a mind-boggling supply chain. Of course there's a price for this. I gave up and got a Nokia 105.
- pacifika 3y ago
  Thanks for mentioning a device
  - reddisbad 3y ago
    I'm lucky (?) to live somewhere where 2G isn't going to be turned off any time soon, due to legacy support requirements. Otherwise, I'd have to get one of Nokia's newer "dumb smartphone" devices.
    - selectodude 3y ago
      The more recent refresh of the Nokia 105 comes in 4G flavors and supports VoLTE so you’re good to go worldwide.
    - NovaDudely 3y ago
      I would have kept my previous phones for a lot longer if it wasn't for them switching of the 2G network, and next year they switch of the 3G network! (Australia for reference) These 4G dumb phones are cool but the power requirements of 4G can be a burden once you actually start making calls. So you get weird things like 30 days stand by but 3 hours talk time
StingyJelly 3y ago
Since 2019 the landscape has deffinitely changed. "Hardcore" Free Software phones like Pinephone, Librem or PostmarketOS are still difficult but if LineageOS is Free-Software-enough for you, don't give up now. There is grapheneOS that should be no-compromises solution with it's sandboxed google apps. (Haven't used it myself.) MicroG now passes safetynet once again and is pretty stable. (Altrough on some phones you may need root to make it believe that the phone is not rooted.) Clean LineageOS without gapps is more usable than ever due to the huawei-google breakup resulting in a lot more apps being published on huawei appgallery without google safetynet requirement. (Unlike their playstore version.) Downloading apk from Appgallery website requires just some url manipulation for which you can use following bookmarklet: javascript:(function() {window.location=window.location.href.replace(/^https:\/\/appgallery\.huawei\.com\/app/g, "https://appgallery.cloud.huawei.com/appdl https://appgallery.cloud.huawei.com/appdl" );})() Source: me. I daily-drive 7 year old phone running LineageOS with almost no issues. I also have a backup phone where I multi-boot LineageOS+MicroG and postmarketOS for fun and experimentation.
- sleepycatgirl 3y ago
  Huh. My new phone doesn't have Google play services, so I kept old OP6 solely for the bank app... but the bank app is also on the huawei app store... So now I am almost tempted to see if I can get the bank app on my current phone, and then, finally try out postmarketOS on the OP6
  - StingyJelly 3y ago
    I think there's a good chance that the huawei version of the app will work even without huawei services except for push notifications. SDM845 is now probably the best chipset for postmarketOS so I hope you'll be able to play with it.
throwaway22032 3y ago
I've leaned harder into stuff like degoogled Android since app providers started to get obsessive about unrooted phones. I'm sorry, but no, you don't need to halt execution simply because I'm an admin on my own device. Particularly if I can do exactly the same thing by just using your web interface (90% of the time this is available).
AndyKelley 3y ago
I got my librem in the mail last week after waiting several years(!!) for shipping. It's complete trash. The software is shit, the battery is shit, it's expensive, low specs, completely unusable. I'm willing to compromise a lot in order to go with the free software approach, but my god, just do better. There's no excuse for how un-functional this thing is. Try harder. I had the same reaction with the pine phone a couple years ago. At least that one shipped sooner though.
- BSEdlMMldESB 3y ago
  no excuse, merely a conspiracy explanation: it simply cannot be permitted. somebody realized PC market/platform made a huge "mistake", letting anybody make software for them and permitting random hardware. this 'mistake' was avoided on smartphones for very pointed, clear, intentions of social control. there exists NO homebrew smartphone hardware like for PCs.
  - chongli 3y ago
    Your conspiracy explanation doesn’t pass the sniff test. There’s a much much simpler explanation: lack of demand. Heck, you’d think people on hacker news would be all over open source alternatives to proprietary hardware, software, and services. Yet take a brief wander over to one of the many (many) recent Reddit crisis threads and you’ll find countless naysayers talking about how lemmy and the like will never succeed, despite gaining hundreds of thousands of users in a week and a half.
    - BSEdlMMldESB 3y ago
      it is really incredible, how could lack of demand be made to happen? but I'm not trying to imply anything. I merely wonder if such a thing (to create or destroy demand of something) is possible; and if it were, how would you do it? surely it involves marketing? but I also want to reflect on the market cap of convenience...
      - Arnavion 3y ago
nathants 3y ago
postmarketos on oneplus6t definitely works. it’s got rough edges compared to an iphone, and performance is worse, but it is insanely better than a pinephone.
jaimex2 3y ago
For me it was the camera and vendor customisations. LinageOS could never have a decent camera and running it usually meant losing features. Back in the CyanogenMod days it was the other way around.
friend_and_foe 3y ago
I have been on a AOSP+MicroG setup with no google apps, services or accounts for almost a decade and can safely and confidently say the author has no idea what they're talking about. I don't know what sorts of applications they need their phone for but I have had almost no problems. I use my phone for everything and I can't think of a problem off the top of my head that I have that Google locked in users dont. In fact, when I first took the dive, I thought it was going to be rougher than it was but worth it, and it has been easier. Ive probably stumbled into 1 or 2 apps over the years that I couldn't use, and I can't remember what they were off the top of my head. It is not only possible to live google free, it is fucking easy.
dreamcompiler 3y ago
This answers a question that's been bugging me: Why TF can I not find a Calendar app on the Play Store that does not depend on Google Calendar? I used to have one 5 years ago that was completely separate, but now I'm apparently not allowed to have a calendar app that does not send all my calendar info to Google. So now I have this very nice Android phone that does not have a Calendar app because Google won't allow such a thing to exist unless they get to see my appointments. Guess I'll have to write some kind of web app calendar thing if I want a freaking calendar on my phone.
- josephcsible 3y ago
  Doesn't LineageOS come with such an app? Even if you don't want to use LineageOS, you might be able to just extract that .apk from it and use it on stock Android.
- dugite-code 3y ago
  All the simple tools apps are good and the calendar is quite nice these days. You can sync with google calendar with it but it can be local only if you like. I sync to my Nextcloud server with Davx5 https://play.google.com/store/apps/dev?id=9070296388022589266 https://play.google.com/store/apps/dev?id=907029638802258926... Also helps they are open source and can be installed via F-droid if needed
- saratogacx 3y ago
  I know it is just trading one mega-corp for another but the Outlook app doesn't use Google calendar. I don't think the Samsung calendar uses google either unless you hook it up to gmail, I had mine against an exchange server.
  - dreamcompiler 3y ago
    That explains it. My previous phone was a Samsung and it came with an app called "Calendar" that's not present on my current [non-Samsung] phone. Wonder if I could copy it over with ADB? Guessing it wouldn't work on a non-Samsung phone though.
- 3y ago
ohthehugemanate 3y ago
I can't believe there's no mention here of sailfishos.org, which runs great on Sony xperia devices and even runs android apps. It's Linux (Intel/Nokia Meego, specifically) with a proprietary UI. Would I prefer an OSS UI? Yes. But for a real, viable duopoly alternative it is worth the sacrifice to me.

151 points by luu 3y ago

gigatexal 3y ago

GrapheneOS seems to be the winner these days.

noman-land 3y ago
GrapheneOS is wonderful.
- Freak_NL 3y ago
  It is, but limited to the (excellent) Google Pixel devices.
  - noman-land 3y ago
    Agreed. It's a super unfortunate situation, but I'm glad that even this tiny sliver exists for now.
rationalist 3y ago
Does anyone run CalyxOS, which is put together by the Calyx Institute?
- zorrolovsky 3y ago
  I have been running CalyxOS on a Pixel 6a for 6 months and I'm very happy with it. It does everything I need and found no big annoyances so far. A minor issue is MyFitnessPal not reading barcodes but that's it.
- neilv 3y ago
  I tried CalyxOS before GrapheneOS, a few years ago... I can't speak to CalyxOS now, but at the time, it seemed to be mostly just a hodgepodge of "this is a 'privacy' app; throw it in" without much coherence or polish beyond that. Then I tried GrapheneOS, which was driven by Daniel Micay, who seems a hardcore security-minded person. GrapheneOS seemed to be working beating AOSP internals into better security shape, and very slowly tackling the apps. So, with GrapheneOS, it seemed I was starting with as clean and trustworthy an Android as one can get (to the extend Android can ever be clean or trustworthy), and in the interim I could add missing open source apps to my install. (Email, maps, SSH, chat, etc.) GrapheneOS isn't the ideal I could imagine, but it exists, and I feel less violated by GrapheneOS than by other phone in the last ~15 years or so.
logicprog 3y ago
Been using it daily for almost a year now, and yeah. God it's clean. I love it.

barbariangrunge 3y ago

I expected this to at least mention the pine phone, the librem, or the Ubuntu phone (which was charming). It’s just about de-googled android and how it doesn’t work very well due to how everything depends on google play services

Un1corn 3y ago
When I wrote it, from the options you mentioned, only Ubuntu phone existed and it was after Canonical abandoned it. So in 2019 it really felt like Android was the only option.
novia 3y ago
It did mention the Librem.
fikama 3y ago
do not forget postmarketOS project :)
the_third_wave 3y ago
> ...de-googled android and how it doesn’t work very well due to how everything depends on google play services Even that aspect is wildly overblown in my experience of using Google-free Android devices for the last 12 years. Yes, the thing will prompt you to install some Google-thing because it supposedly does not work without it - there are currently two such notifications on one of my devices telling me so. The thing is, nearly everything I throw at the device works even though some things complain about the supposed lack of Google services. I click away the warning if it appears and just use the software, this includes e.g. BankID - a Swedish electronic ID provider - and similar apps. I do not have microG installed on my main device either, I just forego on using Google services altogether. All in all I think the current situation with de-Googled Android is quite useable. If ever some mobile thing comes along which more resembles the way software is installed on personal computers - i.e. install Linux or BSD of choice, add required software, configure accounts and you're in the game - I might move to that but until such a time I'll keep on using AOSP-derived Android distributions in combination with self-hosted services.

linmob 3y ago

Please add a [2019] to the title.

LatticeAnimal 3y ago
[meta-commentary] HN should require a date field on all submissions and then should only show the date if the article is older than a specified time (like 1yr) (or always show the date but not in the title)
- lolinder 3y ago
  Some web pages don't have a date.
  - wang_li 3y ago
    Those web pages should be removed from the internet.
  - LatticeAnimal 3y ago
    Then make it opt-out, or make it default to today's date, or ... There are solutions to this problem that are better than the way it currently works.
MandieD 3y ago
Done, after seeing the author say it was written then.

recvonline 3y ago

Related: https://drewdevault.com/2023/06/16/Mobile-linux-retrospective.html https://drewdevault.com/2023/06/16/Mobile-linux-retrospectiv...

Arnavion 3y ago
>But pmOS really suffers from reliability issues – both on edge and on stable it seemed like every update broke some things and fixed others, [...] such as the media controls on my bluetooth headphones breaking [...] major showstoppers such as broken phone calls, SMS, [...] all of my icons disappearing from the UI I would be surprised if these issues were because of pmOS and not because of Alpine. For example everything involved with bluetooth headphones or with calls or with SMS is in Alpine, with the exception of one ALSA UCM config file from the pmOS device-pine64-pinephone package that hasn't changed since 2021. In the ~2 years that I've had my PP (running pmOS Edge), the only time phone calls were broken were because of pipewire updates in Alpine repo. SMS has never broken. I don't use bluetooth headphones so I can't say anything about that. Alpine is maintained somewhat "amateurishly" compared to other distros. Eg one of the main Alpine devs frequently makes commits to the packages repo without any sort of merge request or review process, which sometimes introduces new bugs and they then make more commits to fix. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, quite the opposite; it's just what the dev culture is, and it means fixes and changes go in quickly without bureaucracy etc. (And I'm pretty sure ddevault is aware of this.) Also while Alpine does involve pmOS folks in discussions about issues that might affect them (and many of the pmOS folks are also Alpine folks), things do slip through the crack many times, like the pipewire issue I mentioned and many others. At the same time I expect these things to happen on edge but not on stable, so I'm surprised that he says he experienced them on stable too. I only use Edge myself so I can't say for certain. In any case, to the overall point of having a phone that is 24/7/365 reliable at calls and SMS, I agree that "PinePhone running pmOS Edge" will not meet that requirement, for both software and hardware reasons.

2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago

> Remove the search engine setting. Hard-code the search engine to Google How is that not monopoly behavior? Why don't they just put an iMessage alternative in Android at that point?

wombat-man 3y ago
isn't that just RCS?
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
  No. I've read that Google is not allowed put iMessage-like features into the stock messaging app because it would run afoul of antitrust. Ironically, Apple can do this because they own everything.
  - subarctic 3y ago
    It sounds like Google's way around this is what they've been doing for years at this point: slowly replacing AOSP builtins like the stock messaging app with separate, proprietary Google apps.
  - richiebful1 3y ago
    I'm not sure what the stock messaging app is anymore, but "Messages by Google" accomplishes what we're talking about [1] 1. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.android.apps.messaging https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.and...
    - 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
      Right, I don't believe that's part of AOSP but is a Google app. I don't believe all phones ship with that though my Pixel does. Do Samsung phones ship with that?
    - muppetman 3y ago
      That's a closed source proprietary Google app that relies on Google Play Services to work.

superkuh 3y ago

Giving up on free software phones is the first step. Now give up on software phones and just use a tiny non-computer cell phone that does text and voice. The removable battery will last a week and you won't even notice it in your pocket. The firmware will last the entire life of the phone, never needing to be updated. Replace the car GPS navigation functionality with a dedicated car GPS and you have most of the same functionality but with better longer lasting devices.

rationalist 3y ago
And miss out on, or pay for, GPS updates and lose out on real-time traffic reports.
- hsishzixgsi 3y ago
  traffic is pretty consistent everywhere. you also "miss" being sent to a known slow and long rout just because the buggy algorithm wants to bucket test some random path close to the daily rush hour.
  - rationalist 3y ago
    > traffic is pretty consistent everywhere. Yes, accidents always happen in the same spot at the same time on the same days, and new people visiting new places always know about those things. I have had Google try to send me on slower routes, but I use my brain and drive the more logical way and it updates the map accordingly. Though most people are not logical, and such practices theoretically help everyone overall including the petson who is sent on a different route that time.
- dmm 3y ago
  > GPS updates I load free OSM maps on my GPS.
- Marsymars 3y ago
  My Garmin GPS has been getting free map updates for years and gives real-time traffic reports.

timthelion 3y ago

I use lineage on oneplus phones and have no problems. I can't do internet banking and a bunch of other non-free things, but really, who needs that? I have a web browser. The only thing that doesn't work is google meet and google docs and google drive because they intentionally break the mobile experience in the web. But there is a simple solution. Simply don't use google services. If/when my employer demands that of me (occasionally I hear murmurings) I just tell him I'm online 9-5 on my laptop and if he needs me he can call. I'm happy with my lineage.

kelnos 3y ago
> I can't do internet banking and a bunch of other non-free things, but really, who needs that? I do, and so do a majority of smartphone users. Good for you that you are fine doing without it, but most people will not accept that trade off. I ran CyanogenMod back when that was a thing, but at that time SafetyNet didn't exist, and it was a rare event when an app that ran on Google-approved Android didn't run on CM. Nowadays I can't run an alternative ROM without sacrificing things I care about using.
- Certhas 3y ago
  If you're in the EU your web based online banking requires 2FA which is typically provided by phone biometry+app. No idea if these work on Lineage, etc...
secondcoming 3y ago
I use two banks in the UK and both are pushing to use their app over their website. Even logging in to the websites is a chore.
friend_and_foe 3y ago
I have a similar setup and have no problems with online banking. I hear this from people, what exactly is the problem?
- timthelion 3y ago

user_7832 3y ago

On a similar note I've been wanting to buy and use a fully "free" phone - one where I have complete control over most if not all things. But it appears to me that unless you use a regular "phone", there is no way you can DIY your way into building a "modern" phone bit by bit like how a desktop could be made.* Calling/4g/5g require specific hardware that seems difficult to integrate at a hobbyist level (unlike say installing Linux which is possible in an afternoon even for some not familiar with it.) And even though you could get android to run on a raspberry pi, it appears impossible to use something like google pay (which likely requires safetynet) on it. I'm not sure if the reason is the "blobs" that ARM uses instead of drivers but it is disappointing that I can't take something like the Snapdragon 8 Gen 2 dev kit, dualboot linux and android and use it like a phone-laptop hybrid. /Disappointed rant over (Here's the kit - https://developer.qualcomm.com/hardware/snapdragon-8-gen-2-hdk https://developer.qualcomm.com/hardware/snapdragon-8-gen-2-h...) * - technically even laptops like with an SBC or the framework board. I can make the hardware but the software challenges seem huge. If anyone familiar with ARM development has any info/suggestions, I'd love to know more.

gigel82 3y ago
Are you saying you can build a modern desktop without any binary blobs? Full control of all firmware (including the CPU microcode and things like Intel ME)? What about WiFi cards? I'd say that hasn't been true for at least 20 years.
- user_7832 3y ago
  > Are you saying you can build a modern desktop without any binary blobs? Full control of all firmware (including the CPU microcode and things like Intel ME)? What about WiFi cards? I'd say that hasn't been true for at least 20 years. Not exactly. What I mean is the average x64 Intel/AMD device is relatively much more "controllable" than an equivalent smartphone, assuming decent BIOS/UEFI options are provided. If I want to customize the looks with rainmeter, or even system-level tweaks (eg mactype), it's relatively trivial on desktop OSes (possibly excluding recent locked-down MacOs versions). I can even jump between Windows and Linux and Hackintosh/MacOs and BSD as I have a "pretty decent" level of control. A rooted android phone is also quite decent, however issues start creeping in the further you stray from what your manufacturer provided. It starts of with things like Widevine/DRM not playing nice (unless you have a Titan M chip or something similar), and the further you go (stock rom -> custom rom with gapps/microG -> deGoogled rom), the more painful it becomes to even use ""basics" like whatsapp. I guess all this is a very roundabout way of saying that desktop OS is a first class citizen (mostly), while mobile OSes (which are necessary for booking an Uber/paying at the checkout POS/navigating with Google Maps with turn-by-turn nav) do not have other freedoms. And while the hardware absolutely exists for an arm board to do it all with the right daughterboards, doing mobile stuff on a desktop is impossible, and doing desktop stuff on mobile is limiting thanks to software.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

jeroenhd 3y ago

> a constant notification just so it will be able to send me push notifications That's because stuff running in the background in a way that cannot be optimized by the system must inform the user it's doing background operations. I think that's a good idea. Hiding the notification is easy (hold it to enter the notification settings and disable that specific notification category) and it clearly shows which apps are killing your battery life, hopefully making the entire platform less dependent on aggressive task killers.

gnramires 3y ago

Any updates on the situation in 2023?

zorrolovsky 3y ago
I use CalyxOS on a Pixel 6a and a LineageOS on a OnePlus 6. No micro G on any of them. Honestly, I have absolutely no issues with CalyxOS and I use mainstream apps like: UK Banking (Starling and HSBC), Whatsapp, Telegram, MyFitnessPal, some airlines and local bus apps... I guess your mileage might vary. If you're keen on a particular app and you can't make it work, that's a frustration. So far I haven't found any reason to come back to a standard OS, and I appreciate my phone not sending constant signals to Apple or Google to the tune of hundreds per day.
- nelblu 3y ago
  I use calyxos as well and have microg disabled. WhatsApp works fine, signal, telgram works great, fairemail client for emails, davx5 for contact syncing etc. I don't use any google apps expects camera app (which I have disabled data access using firewall), but I have a feeling those may not work so well on calyxos. Only problem - which I actually think is a feature is that I don't get any notifications for a lot of apps, unless I actually open the app. I really think this is a great thing because most of these apps that use google services for notifications are just sending marketing modifications which I would have blocked anyway. I do sometimes miss WhatsApp call because the notification doesn't work properly but I have told all my friends and family that they can contact me on signal for fastest response.
  - anonymousDan 3y ago
    Is it possible to uninstall all browsers (including Chrome) in Calyxos? Most of the time I waste on my phone is in the browser and I would love to have a browserless but otherwise connected device.

jancsika 3y ago

Someone should do a Linux phone that scales way back: 1. you can dial phone numbers somehow 2. you can talk on the phone 3. you can hear the person on the other line 4. the cell reception on the phone is decent quality 5. antenna is properly placed for very good reception 6. basic SMS works, all the time 7. has been extensively tested to work with a single carrier, any other carrier is no warranty 8. boot time and shutdown time are so small that it opportunistically shuts down instead of suspend 9. bonus goal: contacts, can maybe play snake Librem 5 fails #5 and #8 (and can't really succeed at #8 unless you just drop into a command line, but then you wouldn't be able to input phone numbers). I've read some reports that #1, #2, and #3 have improved enough to be usable. On #7, they offer a bundle with a simcard for a carrier that was tested with the phone. (Doubt it was extensively tested, though.) Of the little I've read about Pinephone and Pinephone Pro, they've had problems with #3, #6, and #7, and #8. Overall, however, both appear as a smartphone complete with messaging and browsers. But Librem 5 can't do hardware acceleration for Firefox ESR (because the etnaviv driver doesn't have recent enough OpenGL features for webrender to work). Pinephone is too slow to browse. I'm not sure about Pinephone Pro (though I'd be quite surprised if it passes the Firefox webrender tests). I'd much prefer a much more basic device that gets all the basics right, and then be pleasantly surprised that I can play mp3s on it, too.

SketchySeaBeast 3y ago
Doesn't #8's opportunistic shutdown prevent it from functioning as a phone and receiving calls?
- jancsika 3y ago
  Damn, I guess I unwittingly revealed my phonecall preferences. :) Edit: Isn't there some kind of wake-on-lan on arm chips that the Baseband OS could use?
- pengaru 3y ago
  Not necessarily, if the cell modem stays powered on and can "wake" the application processor into booting when a call/sms is received.

harwoodr 3y ago

I really wish there was a true and modern successor to the Nokia n900 I had ages ago... it was an awesome device.

jaimex2 3y ago
That thing could have saved Nokia if they went all in. The community around it was amazing. They chased trends instead and couldn't keep up.

downWidOutaFite 3y ago

I hoped Amazon's non-Play devices would be enough to keep most developers from being fully captured by Google. Unfortunately they haven't been popular enough in many cases.

blendergeek 3y ago

Related (sort of): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36353960 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36353960

reddisbad 3y ago

The hardware and software stacks of all of the components of a smartphone are at the pinnacle of modern engineering, requiring an uncountable number of engineers and consumers to maintain a mind-boggling supply chain. Of course there's a price for this. I gave up and got a Nokia 105.

pacifika 3y ago
Thanks for mentioning a device
- reddisbad 3y ago
  I'm lucky (?) to live somewhere where 2G isn't going to be turned off any time soon, due to legacy support requirements. Otherwise, I'd have to get one of Nokia's newer "dumb smartphone" devices.
  - selectodude 3y ago
    The more recent refresh of the Nokia 105 comes in 4G flavors and supports VoLTE so you’re good to go worldwide.
  - NovaDudely 3y ago
    I would have kept my previous phones for a lot longer if it wasn't for them switching of the 2G network, and next year they switch of the 3G network! (Australia for reference) These 4G dumb phones are cool but the power requirements of 4G can be a burden once you actually start making calls. So you get weird things like 30 days stand by but 3 hours talk time

StingyJelly 3y ago

Since 2019 the landscape has deffinitely changed. "Hardcore" Free Software phones like Pinephone, Librem or PostmarketOS are still difficult but if LineageOS is Free-Software-enough for you, don't give up now. There is grapheneOS that should be no-compromises solution with it's sandboxed google apps. (Haven't used it myself.) MicroG now passes safetynet once again and is pretty stable. (Altrough on some phones you may need root to make it believe that the phone is not rooted.) Clean LineageOS without gapps is more usable than ever due to the huawei-google breakup resulting in a lot more apps being published on huawei appgallery without google safetynet requirement. (Unlike their playstore version.) Downloading apk from Appgallery website requires just some url manipulation for which you can use following bookmarklet: javascript:(function() {window.location=window.location.href.replace(/^https:\/\/appgallery\.huawei\.com\/app/g, "https://appgallery.cloud.huawei.com/appdl https://appgallery.cloud.huawei.com/appdl" );})() Source: me. I daily-drive 7 year old phone running LineageOS with almost no issues. I also have a backup phone where I multi-boot LineageOS+MicroG and postmarketOS for fun and experimentation.

sleepycatgirl 3y ago
Huh. My new phone doesn't have Google play services, so I kept old OP6 solely for the bank app... but the bank app is also on the huawei app store... So now I am almost tempted to see if I can get the bank app on my current phone, and then, finally try out postmarketOS on the OP6
- StingyJelly 3y ago
  I think there's a good chance that the huawei version of the app will work even without huawei services except for push notifications. SDM845 is now probably the best chipset for postmarketOS so I hope you'll be able to play with it.

throwaway22032 3y ago

I've leaned harder into stuff like degoogled Android since app providers started to get obsessive about unrooted phones. I'm sorry, but no, you don't need to halt execution simply because I'm an admin on my own device. Particularly if I can do exactly the same thing by just using your web interface (90% of the time this is available).

AndyKelley 3y ago

I got my librem in the mail last week after waiting several years(!!) for shipping. It's complete trash. The software is shit, the battery is shit, it's expensive, low specs, completely unusable. I'm willing to compromise a lot in order to go with the free software approach, but my god, just do better. There's no excuse for how un-functional this thing is. Try harder. I had the same reaction with the pine phone a couple years ago. At least that one shipped sooner though.

BSEdlMMldESB 3y ago
no excuse, merely a conspiracy explanation: it simply cannot be permitted. somebody realized PC market/platform made a huge "mistake", letting anybody make software for them and permitting random hardware. this 'mistake' was avoided on smartphones for very pointed, clear, intentions of social control. there exists NO homebrew smartphone hardware like for PCs.
- chongli 3y ago
  Your conspiracy explanation doesn’t pass the sniff test. There’s a much much simpler explanation: lack of demand. Heck, you’d think people on hacker news would be all over open source alternatives to proprietary hardware, software, and services. Yet take a brief wander over to one of the many (many) recent Reddit crisis threads and you’ll find countless naysayers talking about how lemmy and the like will never succeed, despite gaining hundreds of thousands of users in a week and a half.
  - BSEdlMMldESB 3y ago
    it is really incredible, how could lack of demand be made to happen? but I'm not trying to imply anything. I merely wonder if such a thing (to create or destroy demand of something) is possible; and if it were, how would you do it? surely it involves marketing? but I also want to reflect on the market cap of convenience...
    - Arnavion 3y ago

nathants 3y ago

postmarketos on oneplus6t definitely works. it’s got rough edges compared to an iphone, and performance is worse, but it is insanely better than a pinephone.

jaimex2 3y ago

For me it was the camera and vendor customisations. LinageOS could never have a decent camera and running it usually meant losing features. Back in the CyanogenMod days it was the other way around.

friend_and_foe 3y ago

I have been on a AOSP+MicroG setup with no google apps, services or accounts for almost a decade and can safely and confidently say the author has no idea what they're talking about. I don't know what sorts of applications they need their phone for but I have had almost no problems. I use my phone for everything and I can't think of a problem off the top of my head that I have that Google locked in users dont. In fact, when I first took the dive, I thought it was going to be rougher than it was but worth it, and it has been easier. Ive probably stumbled into 1 or 2 apps over the years that I couldn't use, and I can't remember what they were off the top of my head. It is not only possible to live google free, it is fucking easy.

dreamcompiler 3y ago

This answers a question that's been bugging me: Why TF can I not find a Calendar app on the Play Store that does not depend on Google Calendar? I used to have one 5 years ago that was completely separate, but now I'm apparently not allowed to have a calendar app that does not send all my calendar info to Google. So now I have this very nice Android phone that does not have a Calendar app because Google won't allow such a thing to exist unless they get to see my appointments. Guess I'll have to write some kind of web app calendar thing if I want a freaking calendar on my phone.

josephcsible 3y ago
Doesn't LineageOS come with such an app? Even if you don't want to use LineageOS, you might be able to just extract that .apk from it and use it on stock Android.
dugite-code 3y ago
All the simple tools apps are good and the calendar is quite nice these days. You can sync with google calendar with it but it can be local only if you like. I sync to my Nextcloud server with Davx5 https://play.google.com/store/apps/dev?id=9070296388022589266 https://play.google.com/store/apps/dev?id=907029638802258926... Also helps they are open source and can be installed via F-droid if needed
saratogacx 3y ago
I know it is just trading one mega-corp for another but the Outlook app doesn't use Google calendar. I don't think the Samsung calendar uses google either unless you hook it up to gmail, I had mine against an exchange server.
- dreamcompiler 3y ago
  That explains it. My previous phone was a Samsung and it came with an app called "Calendar" that's not present on my current [non-Samsung] phone. Wonder if I could copy it over with ADB? Guessing it wouldn't work on a non-Samsung phone though.
3y ago

ohthehugemanate 3y ago

I can't believe there's no mention here of sailfishos.org, which runs great on Sony xperia devices and even runs android apps. It's Linux (Intel/Nokia Meego, specifically) with a proprietary UI. Would I prefer an OSS UI? Yes. But for a real, viable duopoly alternative it is worth the sacrifice to me.