21 ms·

Releasing an indie game on 3 consoles at once and failing financially (2016)

324 points by plateofsoup 3y ago

genpfault 3y ago
(2016)
- plateofsoup 3y ago
  Thanks, added.
Quarrelsome 3y ago
> You also need to have a good title that is both memorable/catchy and describes the game well. I feel like "get the goat" was just screaming to the be the name of this title. (they even use this term in some of their marketing)
- tmikaeld 3y ago
  Such a missed opportunity, the current “Toto Temple Deluxe” sounds like a generic casino game
  - raincole 3y ago
    It's just my pet peeve, but I absolutely hate the titles with "Deluxe" in them. Maybe it's okay for a game that has lots of DLCs and a Deluxe version that comes with all (or the most important) DLCs. But nothing else.
    - Ekaros 3y ago
      In general have added new stuff and upgraded things in general for already well known name. But from initial launch? Just no, that is just stupid.
  - Cthulhu_ 3y ago
    Yeah, or like 90s / 2000s 'addictive' puzzle games that later were converted into Facebook and then mobile cash cows.
- nathannecro 3y ago
  I thought the exact same thing when I saw their second trailer.
- bentcorner 3y ago
  I've played a ton of Towerfall (4 player battling), some BattleBlock Theatre (vaguely similar), Spelunky (thematically similar), and my biggest takeaway at least from the trailer is that it took me a really long time to figure out what the goal of the game was. If I was browsing through youtube or steam I would have clicked away. I agree that the name of the game contributes a lot to this confusion, although even "get the goat" fails to describe what is going on in the game. I think when people see a game and are contemplating purchasing it they envision what kind of fun they will be having with it. And gameplay footage with unclear goals just isn't enough here. "Keepaway" style games aren't super common (maybe it's in a Mario Party minigame? I've also played a version of this with my kid in roblox [1], where it's one minigame among many). Maybe along those lines this title would have succeeded with more variety. [1] https://youtu.be/mcH36Ld6x3A?t=22 https://youtu.be/mcH36Ld6x3A?t=22
- xeonmc 3y ago
  There are only two hard problems in computer science...
  - bequanna 3y ago
    P=NP and Sales?
- noisy_boy 3y ago
  Goato Temple
rasz 3y ago
2 years spend on Ouya Flash looking game. No, it wasnt the title or marketing.
- TranquilMarmot 3y ago
  This comment is a little mean-spirited. This looks like an indie game that I would have expected to have launched during the time period that this was written, and it's a pretty good post-mortem on how the game was made, marketed, and where it failed.
  - lmm 3y ago
    > This looks like an indie game that I would have expected to have launched during the time period that this was written Disagree. I think it genuinely looks significantly worse: it's so thoroughly brown, and the blocky level design looks like a zillion super mario clones. That seems like a bigger factor to me; yes, it matters that you can't tell what's going on looking at the gameplay, but that would be much less of an issue if it looked good/interesting.
  - rasz 3y ago
    Its realistic and factual. Game was made for Ouya by a studio specializing in Flash games. Its still $10 after 7 years, would you pay $10 for this game?
- Rallen89 3y ago
  Yeah, they spent a good chunk talking about a distinctive art-style of games they liked but the game looks derivative of so many 2d platformers
  - jeroenhd 3y ago
    The brand backing helps, but Nintendo still sells plenty of copies of Mario, the gameplay if which wasn't all that inspired back in the day either. Even Spelunky is just a good implementation of a type of game dating back to the late eighties. Consider indie titles like Minecraft and PUBG taking off with completely ripped off assets and game ideas because they made a great version of an existing concept. Minecraft had the visual style of a 2005 bargain bin game and PUBG is the blandest of bland models and art design coupled with a good implementation of their earlier mod. You don't need to be all that original, gameplay or art style wise, to make a game successful. I don't think this particular art style was all that common on the PS4 or Xbox One. There was a lot wrong with the way they presented and marketed the game, but I don't think the art style is that much of a problem.
jeroenhd 3y ago
First the Ouya, which turned out to be a total flop, and then the Wii U, which Nintendo marketed so badly many people thought it was an extension for their Wii. This company sure made some unlucky bets! Throughout the article I kept coming back to how generic the name sounds. It conjured pictures if the digital slot machines that are free mobile games, with gameplay loops mostly consisting of waiting or paying money to skip wait timers. The name "Toto" being associated with gambling sure doesn't help either. I would've never clicked a link with that name no matter how good you make your game look. A lot of genuine effort and care went into this but with an uninviting name and, by their own admission, a complicated control screen, no amount of art or advertising would've convinced me as a consumer to buy it. This would've been a smash hit on a flash games site, and it would've probably sold well if Ouya had succeeded. One thing I find interesting is that online multi-player wasn't added as a feature during development. I understand how overworked the lone dev must've been, but adding an easy way to play with friends would've surely boosted sales. I also wonder if the game would've gotten more sales on a handheld. I think the 3DS might've made this a great little party game, especially if you follow the "stream a limited version of the game to your friends" model that made DS local multi-player so interesting. Now, with the Switch out, with its built-in local multi-player features, the game might've gotten a popularity boost as well. It's sad to see a game made with so much love fail, but with problems in do many key areas I'm surprised it took them this long to admit defeat.
- ido 3y ago
  We kept improving the game afterwards and released the final version of Toto Temple Deluxe on PS4, Xbox One, Wii U and Steam on September 29th 2015. They've released on all the at-the-time mainstream platforms, I don't think the choice of consoles is what I'd blame anything on.
- dehrmann 3y ago
  > Wii U, which Nintendo marketed so badly many people thought it was an extension for their Wii I can't decide if that's better or worse than Xbox. Xbox One isn't the original Xbox? And do I want Series S or X?
  - 3y ago
deleted 3y ago
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bulbosaur123 3y ago
The game looks just bland.
- adhvaryu 3y ago
  It was 8 years ago and the Indie game scene was not so saturated with games in this style and genre.
  - cyode 3y ago
    Even so, that was the era of Cuphead, the first Overcooked, and other local multiplayer games that had undeniable character about them. Even compared to marquee 2010 _flash games_, this game comes off as lackluster. (Props to them for their effort and this writeup, of course.)
    - a13o 3y ago
      Juicy Beast was considered a top tier studio in the Flash ecosystem with many hits in that space, and Toto Temple was well-known and much anticipated at the time by the scene. Unfortunately the scene was dying; and the gameplay aesthetics that made for a successful Flash game did not translate well to the PC and console markets. Cuphead and Overcooked wouldn't come until a couple years later, on the next generation of hardware. It's easy to blend these timelines together in 2023, but at the time these things were worlds apart and not influential over each other at all.
  - badsectoracula 3y ago
    It was even more saturated 8 years ago, especially if you take Flash gaming into account that was still fresh in people's minds.
  - ilyt 3y ago
    It had enough games that were not one gimmick to overshadow it anyway.
  - Ekaros 3y ago
    https://steamdb.info/stats/gameratings/2015/ https://steamdb.info/stats/gameratings/2015/ Steam releases in 2015. Some 2200+ titles in total. Lot of them indie. Notable pick at least Duck Game. For something completing in multiplayer games.
zoklet-enjoyer 3y ago
Should have called the game Get the Goat. That would make me curious enough to look into it. Toto Temple makes me feel nothing.
pbhjpbhj 3y ago
I didn't see price mentioned, nor totals for revenue? I wonder how much it would cost to port to Switch as "Get the Goat" (or maybe King Goat, Goat King, Capture the ... Goat, ...). To capture that couch co-op long tail. It's interesting how the marketing of other games impacts, particularly around naming. The Stegosaurus tail link was possible more interesting.
Incipient 3y ago
I'm not sure why exactly but I see so many "<game name> Deluxe" titles out there I just assume they're janky cloned 5-minute games with 50c in the discount bin. At least for me, the name is an immediate "no".
- ponector 3y ago
  There are exceptions, like Transport Tycoon Deluxe
  - rootlocus 3y ago
    Exceptions reinforce the rule. The other games that have Deluxe in their title have such strong titles, that the "Deluxe" part is often overshadowed. The article gives some examples: * The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion Deluxe * Assassin's Creed 2 Deluxe * Mass Effect 2 Digital Deluxe When the fast cognitive System 1 [1] has to make an initial impression on a title, it uses all biases available to waste as little energy as possible to come up with an answer. "Unknown Deluxe" is very fast labeled as " janky cloned 5-minute games with 50c in the discount bin". "Assassin's Creed Deluxe" is just as easily labeled "some newer / improved release of Assassin's Creed". [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow
  - culebron21 3y ago
    This was probably the game that set this trend.
  - khamisiyah 3y ago
    Yes, but that was released in 1995, way before all the shovelware of the 2000's.
  - melcor 3y ago
    That is one legendary exception in a sea of janky "Deluxe" titles
  - Ekaros 3y ago
    Also perfect example of kinda eeh updates "Deluxe" versions can contain. New biomes were kinda interesting, but were they really needed?
deleted 3y ago
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raverbashing 3y ago
"50% in marketing is common, especially for AAA games" Yes, but you're not an AAA game! Be small, act small. Smarter. More strategically. But yeah, games are hard
culebron21 3y ago
The whole game looks just like tons of other mobile games, that come for free. The style reminds of the "Hero Wars" scam that was profusely advertized on Facebook about 4-5 years ago. The trailer is just incomprehensible. I played a lot of PC games, but here I see the same drama like in pompous movie trailers, just 10x faster, and I still didn't get, whom on the screen I'm supposed to play for.
keyle 3y ago
When the movie "Indie games" came out, this was the prime time to get indie games out. The whole indie market thing was hot. But at a certain point, thanks to the free availability of game engines and their overal quality, the market got flooded with developers living on 5c a week and eating noodles, working on serial games and releasing top quality indie games. It became a game of marketing. And sadly that's where we failed. Steam says that there is no better or worse day of the week or month to plan your release... That should be your first red flag. There are about 30-35 quality titles being put out on steam alone, every day of the week, weekends included. Other markets are a bit of a joke, they hardly fly on the revenues radar, unless you have a special deal with them for increased visibility. You see the title you've worked on for the last 6 months solid just fly off the list quicker than you can say woof. I know for a fact (we talk) that most indies don't make a 10th of their budget back. It's a marketeting's game now. So you probably want a publisher to be in charge of that... and we're back to the old days of non-indies, or essentially small studios. "True" Indie games are dead, by the law of numbers and algorithms. Even people that saw success in the past are now having a hard time pushing signal through noise.
- magic_hamster 3y ago
  6 months is a very short development cycle. It's also very hard to build an audience in such a short time frame. Obviously if you repeat this cycle you are going to get very frustrated.
- dmix 3y ago
  > the market got flooded with developers living on 5c a week and eating noodles, working on serial games The line between indie game and zero budget side project/potential small business often gets skewed in these sorts of discussions. Anyone in the startup scene eventually learns the distinction between a startup legitimately chasing high growth and a small business caught up in a trend. Sometimes you should just be a small business, not simply because you as a person are not capable of making something high growth, but because your own circumstances, team, effort, and product simply aren't much beyond a niche play. There's nothing wrong with running a small business, plenty of people live fulfilling lives fully supported by one, but if you really want to be something more (like topping console charts absent a lottery viral win) it's going going to take plenty of chutzpah and commitment. Otherwise as a business model it's way more profitable and time saving to be realistic.
andai 3y ago
The images didn't load for me, but this archived version has them: https://archive.ph/jlWJX https://archive.ph/jlWJX
lastangryman 3y ago
There is such a small market for 4 player local co-op indie games, I think you need something really special to grab people's attention. It was an interesting deconstruction though. The bit about the different trailer variations they needed to create is a great example of the value a good publisher can add. It seems like this team did a lot right though, just not the right game at the right time.
Noumenon72 3y ago
Their last release was in 2016 as well. Hope they're all doing well.
somenameforme 3y ago
This feels like they completely missed the reasons that they failed, which is a great way to ensure they fail again. I don't know how you can blame marketing with a straight face when your game was featured on multiple Nintendo front pages. That's more marketing than like 99.9% of games get, and you're performing way worse than average. The issue isn't marketing. In the article when it gets to the question of whether the game is fun, the developer beats around the bush. 'Well you see...' which is as good as saying, "no." What's "fun" in a hyper-social 'indie fest' type of environment with a bunch of people wanting to like everything, has little relationship to what's fun when you're at home with some friends. In the right environment people can get really hyped and excited over a literal snail race [4]. It doesn't mean those people are watching snail race reruns at home. Then there's the game itself. You can find the game/discussion of it here [1]. There were many complaints about bugs, misleading labeling, poor/buggy and unremappable controls, and more. There were also somewhat more 'positive' questions like somebody simply asking how to even play local-coop since it seems its not well elaborated on in the game. And the developer chose to completely ignore everything and everybody, making a grand total of 4 posts - including 2 about a negative review. There is no recipe for success in games, beyond making good games. Games have become easier to make than ever (even back in 2016), players now have to-play queues months to years long, and there are simply a lot of really good games out there and more being released every day. This game, a silly casual party style game, was directly competing, in 2016, with games like Ultimate Chicken Horse [2]. There's also a lot of other problems. The game's theme isn't unique. It feels like a Goat Simulator [3] rip off, in terms of theme, even today. Incidentally Goat Simulator released just a couple of years prior to this game, so it was going to be bucketed there even harder back then. There's also the issue of price. You're going to be compared against games of the same price (such as Goat Simulator, again), and $10 is a relatively hefty price for this sort of game. The game almost certainly would have well more than 5x the success it did at a price tag like $2, where it can be more comfortably bought as a joke or whatever. And if you want to get into meta-market gimmicking, add Steam cards. There's lots of collectors who will pick up cheap games with cards because in a number of cases, cheap games on discount can be bought for 'profit', where the card values themselves become worth more than the game. But really most of all, just make a fun game. We live in an era where games can stay purchasable indefinitely on both PC and consoles. If you make a game that people will organically go out of their way to recommend, you're going to succeed. There's an ever increasing number of long-tail successes, and in games I expect this to increasingly become the norm. Even for games like GTA V, it's long tail success [5] is really starting to rival that up-front success that marketing budgets in the hundreds of millions buy. --- [1] - https://steamcommunity.com/app/342920/discussions/ https://steamcommunity.com/app/342920/discussions/ [2] - https://store.steampowered.com/app/386940/Ultimate_Chicken_Horse/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/386940/Ultimate_Chicken_H... [3] - https://store.steampowered.com/app/265930/Goat_Simulator/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/265930/Goat_Simulator/ [4] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-6Wwd184uo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-6Wwd184uo [5] - https://steamplayercount.com/app/271590 https://steamplayercount.com/app/271590
AdeptusAquinas 3y ago
Before opening the article I was thinking "I bet its another 2D side-on platformer". The genre isn't even mentioned in the article, but from looking at all the screenshots (as I would on steam) I can't see why I would buy this over the other three thousand or so 'indie platformers' released each week. They need to do something different, not in theme, appearance, gimmicks or whatever, but in actual game style.
epolanski 3y ago
The amount of negativity and criticism in the comments here is sad. Not only I think it's way too easy to criticize other's work and choices (in hindsight), but there's also a total lack of empathy. We should cherish many small developers and entrepeneurs that share their experiences with such honest and thorough posts about the experience as they offer unique and valuable inputs and reflections.
- rawbot 3y ago
  This was 7 years ago. What good would vapid praising comments do?
  - epolanski 3y ago
    I'm saying authors of such content should be cherished for sharing it, and after writing a 30 minute-long article they may deserve some criticism that goes beyond the "obviously they failed with such a name/marketing/game/whatever" seems way too cheap and dismissive especially if not really motivated.
    - badsectoracula 3y ago
      How is it dismissive when that is the reason why they failed? What more can one way when they see a game that doesn't have any interesting visuals, a generic name and overly niche gameplay? Even ignoring that this is a very old article, what sort of feedback do you expect people to give?
      - johnnyanmac 3y ago
        >Even ignoring that this is a very old article, what sort of feedback do you expect people to give? Something higher quality than the most common bike shedding comment in history. Names are important but not tue end all be all. It's also useless feedback becsuse as you said: it's a very old article and the author already acknowledged 7 years ago that the name and genre it got assumedly stuck into didn't help. It's not only not useful feedback, it shows people did not read the article.
ezconnect 3y ago
Re-release it with the title "Get the Goat"
CodinM 3y ago
I'd play that. Thanks for showing this.
a13o 3y ago
I was deeply involved in the indie scene during this time and played many of these local multiplayer games at GDC indie events, weekly barcade meetups, game jams, Indiecade, etc. I think this misled many developers. Your peers are together often, able to play local multiplayer games, and giving you a false sense of market. I played hundreds of hours of these games in that setting, but never once booted them up at home on my own couch. If you weren't careful you could fall into the game developer version of a comedian's comedian. One gameplay critique I think this post-mortem missed was that the keep-away mechanic at the heart of the game is a zero-sum mechanic. One player is keeping away, and having fun; while all other players are being kept away from, which is frustrating. They addressed this a little in the fuller release but I think keep-away itself is mechanically bankrupt so even a gorgeous coat of paint can't bring it around. All of the other local multiplayer 'successes' from this period were distilled fighting games - Towerfall, Nidhogg, Killer Queen, Duck Game, etc. These allowed for new players to enjoy themselves even in defeat. For Toto Temple, a game of mixed newbs and vets would turn into a vet running circles for the full time limit and then someone suggesting we switch to Towerfall.
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  Yeah it's tricky, and in 2016 we were on the tail end where this was perhaps the only way to get genuine feedback from actual humans. A fun game =/= a game people want to buy. Especially for party games.
- Quarrelsome 3y ago
  [dead]
- Solvency 3y ago
  "Your peers are together often, able to play local multiplayer games, and giving you a false sense of market." Well this sounds like fun. Like the old social arcade experience, but made of people playing fresh indie multiplayer games. Even in prototype form. Why not make THAT a business model? If my town has a little cafe with a few bit screens and controllers, and every night (or even once a week), I could turn up with a bunch of gamers and were all playing novel small games together, that could be really fun. The games could be in varying stages of completion. It wouldn't matter. Because it'd feel like an intimate setting of people just hanging out and socializing and playing things.
greybox 3y ago
This game looks cool, but having trouble when releasing a platformer these days sadly doesn't surprise me, its one of the toughest markets in games right now.
robertlagrant 3y ago
> The process of porting the game was hard by itself, but following up a year of non-creative work with a launch that doesn’t make much noise, nor sell a lot, was pretty hard on all of us. I think classifying the one (!!) programmer's work as uncreative when he got the game running on multiple consoles is completely wrong. That guy is your main asset, and probably your most creative team member.
- ReactiveJelly 3y ago
  "Creative" and "Un-creative" don't have to mean "Good" and "Bad". "Creative" makes me think someone who is working on story, art assets, gameplay mechanics, etc. Engine work can be good but it is not creative from the player's perspective. Maybe from the programming-for-the-sake-of-programming perspective it is.
  - robertlagrant 3y ago
    I don't think it is good and bad; I just also think that creating things is creative. Writing a video game story or drawing its assets aren't the only type of creativity, and in this case it sounds like the creative workload on the technical person was fairly extreme.
    - stoniejohnson 3y ago
      I think the term 'non-creative' was just used as a practical distinction when discussing 'creating <the game>' versus 'porting <the game>'. I don't think the author intended to comment about the quality or even creativity of any developer's work.
      - robertlagrant 3y ago
        Why not call the drawing the non-creative bit, then, if it's purely a distinction? (-:
        3y ago
ReactiveJelly 3y ago
I remember reading a dev diary from Toto Temple years ago, about making their character select menu run in-engine so they could make sure all 4 players knew how to use the dash move. Then I lost track of the game. It's funny that 2 years after this article, in 2018, Celeste became a triple-I hit using a similar dash move but single-player. Turns out pixel platformers still had some juice left, but couch MP is never coming back.
xwdv 3y ago
This has all the hallmarks of typical soulless, extra juicy hyper stimulating arcade games that are so common and commoditized. The name of course is just randomly chosen words thrown together that aren’t too offensive and implies some kind of vague theme. Don’t know who Toto is, why there’s a temple and what makes this so deluxe from the original Toto Temple, but also seems like it doesn’t matter. And this is what I tell most indie devs: you’re probably going to be a failure. So don’t go down making some bland cookie cutter game trying to make a few bucks. Make something truly unique, shocking, strange, something that no producer would touch, because you’re independent and can do whatever you want. You might not make money, but you might win some real fans. And in the end, what matters on this journey is the friends you make along the way and touching people’s lives with your game.
- belugacat 3y ago
  One of the most inspiring things I heard was - if I recall correctly - the Dead Space director giving a talk at GDC. They were talking how from the get go their mentality was - if we're going to make a horror game, it has to be the most fucking horrifying game anyone has played. If we make a horror game that's kind of scary but not that extreme, then what are we doing? I've strived to carry that mentality in all my projects since.
diabolo96 3y ago
The problem of indie games is that indie devs with no prior knowledge of programming, no prior artistic talent, either in terms of crafting an enticing narrative and/or graphical design wake up one day, decide to drop of university/quit their job to create their big commercial "dream game". The problem is that they often jump over the first step of learning how to make a game and go straight to publish their barely passable buggy mishmash of half baked ideas with no quality control or beta-testing done. What they first should've done is make and publish a few small but fun games for free, learn from their mistakes and user inputs and use their new knowledge to make a bigger, better game. If enough people tell them that it's worth buying it then they can sell it .
- rideontime 3y ago
  What part of the article gives you the impression that this was the case?
  - diabolo96 3y ago
    i meant in general.
    - rideontime 3y ago
      Ah. Did you have any opinion on the article?
      - diabolo96 3y ago
        When i was a kid I spent hours and hours playing Burrito Bison on Newgrounds so I know Juicy Beast know how to make games, really good and enjoyable games. As for the article, it was an interesting read and I almost predicted every raison why the game was a failure but I don't agree with some: 1.The "strike a deal first" one is nonsensical. Get famous enough on one platform and the sales will be as good on the others. 2. Only one console at a time should've been obvious ( currently it's the Switch first, others later) I also think that a significant part of the failure comes from the fact that the market was saturated with party games at the time as i remember seeing a lot of ads about similar games and then it just stopped. Also, these kind of games are not really that interesting and become repetitive very fast and no single-player / online multi-player killed it before it was even out.
msie 3y ago
Off-topic, Only Up is one of the best games Ive seen in years. Check it on YouTube.
Kapura 3y ago
Extremely detailed and good analysis, and I agree with just about every point. A lot of it feels like a mystery story, 'why did this game that had good convention vibes not sell?' and I think their ultimate root cause analysis is spot on: > we think the biggest factor is because it’s a local-multiplayer game with no online play. Ultimately it's important to think about who the people on the other end of the console are who buy the game are looking for; in 2023, multiplayer games without online play don't fill a critical niche. I think it's easy to see people at festivals enjoying a game and think it's guaranteed money, but festival games atmosphere is unique, and not necessarily the same as just some dude scrolling thru steam looking for something to play.
- musicale 3y ago
  Conventions like PAX are basically the perfect environment for a pick-up-and-play multiplayer game. There may be a shrinking market for those sorts of games, but I expect there are many people who only play Mario Kart and Super Smash Bros. locally and never go online.
pier25 3y ago
> At the end of the day, we think the biggest factor is because it’s a local-multiplayer game with no online play. I actually played the game with the OUYA and then on PC. I think it failed simply because it wasn't super fun. We consistently got bored after 10mins of playing it. Compare it to Towerfall. Also local multiplayer only and released initially for the OUYA. We played it for hours on end and I think it was a great commercial success.
- falcor84 3y ago
  Seems that even though Towerfall was indeed the best-selling game on the OUYA, it only sold 7000 units there, while making actual money on other platforms [0]. [0] https://www.engadget.com/2014-04-29-towerfall-tiny-sales-ouya.html https://www.engadget.com/2014-04-29-towerfall-tiny-sales-ouy...
whywhywhywhy 3y ago
Trailers are important and this one doesn’t convey what’s going on or why someone should be interested. Couch coop only is an obvious mistake too because your convincing someone to buy on the off chance people will want to play it with them
- chihuahua 3y ago
  The trailer looks like pure twitchy chaos to me, even after watching it twice. And the article has a detailed description of how the developer thinks the trailer perfectly explains every detail. To me, it's still incomprehensible chaos, and it tells me almost nothing.
YChacker100 3y ago
[dead]
antigirl 3y ago
I loved this game and purchased it on PS4 as soon as it was available. Had some fun games with friends too. Surprised to see it didn't sell well. Theres not many fun instant pick up and play local multiplayer games.
honkycat 3y ago
I was one of those kids who LOVED video games, and I went to school to learn how to make them. Thankfully, I listened to my parents, and got a degree in Computer Science instead of a game focused major. I tried for a long time time do the indie dev thing, but i just didn't have the commitment to stick with it after a full time job. The friends I went to school with who DID end up in games are not working on Dark Souls 3. They tend to work on shitty mobile games with barely any game play, and make half as much as I do with a way less portable skill set. Personally: I am happy with how it all turned out. I prefer building actually useful tools and applications over building shitty video games. After reading enough of these indie game funerals, I have come to the conclusion that there just isn't a market there anymore. I think the data agrees with me here. I also make music in my free time, and it is a similar issue. I pour work into my music, and for what? For nobody to care or to listen to it. So it goes.
remram 3y ago
Move or Die is a similar game, except it has hilarious narration, many game modes, a ton of mutators, and online multiplayer. Taking a look at Steam, it is $15 to Toto Temple's $10. It's just too small a game in a very competitive genre.
madsbuch 3y ago
I just started gaming again after 10 years not doing it. I got a Switch, though I usually would have gamed on a PC. It has really narrowed in my reason to game: The story. Usually, I would not have bought into franchises, but I am giving in. The fact that Zelda already has so much culture, makes it a hit for me.

324 points by plateofsoup 3y ago

genpfault 3y ago

(2016)

plateofsoup 3y ago
Thanks, added.

Quarrelsome 3y ago

> You also need to have a good title that is both memorable/catchy and describes the game well. I feel like "get the goat" was just screaming to the be the name of this title. (they even use this term in some of their marketing)

tmikaeld 3y ago
Such a missed opportunity, the current “Toto Temple Deluxe” sounds like a generic casino game
- raincole 3y ago
  It's just my pet peeve, but I absolutely hate the titles with "Deluxe" in them. Maybe it's okay for a game that has lots of DLCs and a Deluxe version that comes with all (or the most important) DLCs. But nothing else.
  - Ekaros 3y ago
    In general have added new stuff and upgraded things in general for already well known name. But from initial launch? Just no, that is just stupid.
- Cthulhu_ 3y ago
  Yeah, or like 90s / 2000s 'addictive' puzzle games that later were converted into Facebook and then mobile cash cows.
nathannecro 3y ago
I thought the exact same thing when I saw their second trailer.
bentcorner 3y ago
I've played a ton of Towerfall (4 player battling), some BattleBlock Theatre (vaguely similar), Spelunky (thematically similar), and my biggest takeaway at least from the trailer is that it took me a really long time to figure out what the goal of the game was. If I was browsing through youtube or steam I would have clicked away. I agree that the name of the game contributes a lot to this confusion, although even "get the goat" fails to describe what is going on in the game. I think when people see a game and are contemplating purchasing it they envision what kind of fun they will be having with it. And gameplay footage with unclear goals just isn't enough here. "Keepaway" style games aren't super common (maybe it's in a Mario Party minigame? I've also played a version of this with my kid in roblox [1], where it's one minigame among many). Maybe along those lines this title would have succeeded with more variety. [1] https://youtu.be/mcH36Ld6x3A?t=22 https://youtu.be/mcH36Ld6x3A?t=22
xeonmc 3y ago
There are only two hard problems in computer science...
- bequanna 3y ago
  P=NP and Sales?
noisy_boy 3y ago
Goato Temple

rasz 3y ago

2 years spend on Ouya Flash looking game. No, it wasnt the title or marketing.

TranquilMarmot 3y ago
This comment is a little mean-spirited. This looks like an indie game that I would have expected to have launched during the time period that this was written, and it's a pretty good post-mortem on how the game was made, marketed, and where it failed.
- lmm 3y ago
  > This looks like an indie game that I would have expected to have launched during the time period that this was written Disagree. I think it genuinely looks significantly worse: it's so thoroughly brown, and the blocky level design looks like a zillion super mario clones. That seems like a bigger factor to me; yes, it matters that you can't tell what's going on looking at the gameplay, but that would be much less of an issue if it looked good/interesting.
- rasz 3y ago
  Its realistic and factual. Game was made for Ouya by a studio specializing in Flash games. Its still $10 after 7 years, would you pay $10 for this game?
Rallen89 3y ago
Yeah, they spent a good chunk talking about a distinctive art-style of games they liked but the game looks derivative of so many 2d platformers
- jeroenhd 3y ago
  The brand backing helps, but Nintendo still sells plenty of copies of Mario, the gameplay if which wasn't all that inspired back in the day either. Even Spelunky is just a good implementation of a type of game dating back to the late eighties. Consider indie titles like Minecraft and PUBG taking off with completely ripped off assets and game ideas because they made a great version of an existing concept. Minecraft had the visual style of a 2005 bargain bin game and PUBG is the blandest of bland models and art design coupled with a good implementation of their earlier mod. You don't need to be all that original, gameplay or art style wise, to make a game successful. I don't think this particular art style was all that common on the PS4 or Xbox One. There was a lot wrong with the way they presented and marketed the game, but I don't think the art style is that much of a problem.

jeroenhd 3y ago

First the Ouya, which turned out to be a total flop, and then the Wii U, which Nintendo marketed so badly many people thought it was an extension for their Wii. This company sure made some unlucky bets! Throughout the article I kept coming back to how generic the name sounds. It conjured pictures if the digital slot machines that are free mobile games, with gameplay loops mostly consisting of waiting or paying money to skip wait timers. The name "Toto" being associated with gambling sure doesn't help either. I would've never clicked a link with that name no matter how good you make your game look. A lot of genuine effort and care went into this but with an uninviting name and, by their own admission, a complicated control screen, no amount of art or advertising would've convinced me as a consumer to buy it. This would've been a smash hit on a flash games site, and it would've probably sold well if Ouya had succeeded. One thing I find interesting is that online multi-player wasn't added as a feature during development. I understand how overworked the lone dev must've been, but adding an easy way to play with friends would've surely boosted sales. I also wonder if the game would've gotten more sales on a handheld. I think the 3DS might've made this a great little party game, especially if you follow the "stream a limited version of the game to your friends" model that made DS local multi-player so interesting. Now, with the Switch out, with its built-in local multi-player features, the game might've gotten a popularity boost as well. It's sad to see a game made with so much love fail, but with problems in do many key areas I'm surprised it took them this long to admit defeat.

ido 3y ago
We kept improving the game afterwards and released the final version of Toto Temple Deluxe on PS4, Xbox One, Wii U and Steam on September 29th 2015. They've released on all the at-the-time mainstream platforms, I don't think the choice of consoles is what I'd blame anything on.
dehrmann 3y ago
> Wii U, which Nintendo marketed so badly many people thought it was an extension for their Wii I can't decide if that's better or worse than Xbox. Xbox One isn't the original Xbox? And do I want Series S or X?
- 3y ago

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bulbosaur123 3y ago

The game looks just bland.

adhvaryu 3y ago
It was 8 years ago and the Indie game scene was not so saturated with games in this style and genre.
- cyode 3y ago
  Even so, that was the era of Cuphead, the first Overcooked, and other local multiplayer games that had undeniable character about them. Even compared to marquee 2010 _flash games_, this game comes off as lackluster. (Props to them for their effort and this writeup, of course.)
  - a13o 3y ago
    Juicy Beast was considered a top tier studio in the Flash ecosystem with many hits in that space, and Toto Temple was well-known and much anticipated at the time by the scene. Unfortunately the scene was dying; and the gameplay aesthetics that made for a successful Flash game did not translate well to the PC and console markets. Cuphead and Overcooked wouldn't come until a couple years later, on the next generation of hardware. It's easy to blend these timelines together in 2023, but at the time these things were worlds apart and not influential over each other at all.
- badsectoracula 3y ago
  It was even more saturated 8 years ago, especially if you take Flash gaming into account that was still fresh in people's minds.
- ilyt 3y ago
  It had enough games that were not one gimmick to overshadow it anyway.
- Ekaros 3y ago
  https://steamdb.info/stats/gameratings/2015/ https://steamdb.info/stats/gameratings/2015/ Steam releases in 2015. Some 2200+ titles in total. Lot of them indie. Notable pick at least Duck Game. For something completing in multiplayer games.

zoklet-enjoyer 3y ago

Should have called the game Get the Goat. That would make me curious enough to look into it. Toto Temple makes me feel nothing.

pbhjpbhj 3y ago

I didn't see price mentioned, nor totals for revenue? I wonder how much it would cost to port to Switch as "Get the Goat" (or maybe King Goat, Goat King, Capture the ... Goat, ...). To capture that couch co-op long tail. It's interesting how the marketing of other games impacts, particularly around naming. The Stegosaurus tail link was possible more interesting.

Incipient 3y ago

I'm not sure why exactly but I see so many "<game name> Deluxe" titles out there I just assume they're janky cloned 5-minute games with 50c in the discount bin. At least for me, the name is an immediate "no".

ponector 3y ago
There are exceptions, like Transport Tycoon Deluxe
- rootlocus 3y ago
  Exceptions reinforce the rule. The other games that have Deluxe in their title have such strong titles, that the "Deluxe" part is often overshadowed. The article gives some examples: * The Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion Deluxe * Assassin's Creed 2 Deluxe * Mass Effect 2 Digital Deluxe When the fast cognitive System 1 [1] has to make an initial impression on a title, it uses all biases available to waste as little energy as possible to come up with an answer. "Unknown Deluxe" is very fast labeled as " janky cloned 5-minute games with 50c in the discount bin". "Assassin's Creed Deluxe" is just as easily labeled "some newer / improved release of Assassin's Creed". [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow
- culebron21 3y ago
  This was probably the game that set this trend.
- khamisiyah 3y ago
  Yes, but that was released in 1995, way before all the shovelware of the 2000's.
- melcor 3y ago
  That is one legendary exception in a sea of janky "Deluxe" titles
- Ekaros 3y ago
  Also perfect example of kinda eeh updates "Deluxe" versions can contain. New biomes were kinda interesting, but were they really needed?

deleted 3y ago

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raverbashing 3y ago

"50% in marketing is common, especially for AAA games" Yes, but you're not an AAA game! Be small, act small. Smarter. More strategically. But yeah, games are hard

culebron21 3y ago

The whole game looks just like tons of other mobile games, that come for free. The style reminds of the "Hero Wars" scam that was profusely advertized on Facebook about 4-5 years ago. The trailer is just incomprehensible. I played a lot of PC games, but here I see the same drama like in pompous movie trailers, just 10x faster, and I still didn't get, whom on the screen I'm supposed to play for.

keyle 3y ago

When the movie "Indie games" came out, this was the prime time to get indie games out. The whole indie market thing was hot. But at a certain point, thanks to the free availability of game engines and their overal quality, the market got flooded with developers living on 5c a week and eating noodles, working on serial games and releasing top quality indie games. It became a game of marketing. And sadly that's where we failed. Steam says that there is no better or worse day of the week or month to plan your release... That should be your first red flag. There are about 30-35 quality titles being put out on steam alone, every day of the week, weekends included. Other markets are a bit of a joke, they hardly fly on the revenues radar, unless you have a special deal with them for increased visibility. You see the title you've worked on for the last 6 months solid just fly off the list quicker than you can say woof. I know for a fact (we talk) that most indies don't make a 10th of their budget back. It's a marketeting's game now. So you probably want a publisher to be in charge of that... and we're back to the old days of non-indies, or essentially small studios. "True" Indie games are dead, by the law of numbers and algorithms. Even people that saw success in the past are now having a hard time pushing signal through noise.

magic_hamster 3y ago
6 months is a very short development cycle. It's also very hard to build an audience in such a short time frame. Obviously if you repeat this cycle you are going to get very frustrated.
dmix 3y ago
> the market got flooded with developers living on 5c a week and eating noodles, working on serial games The line between indie game and zero budget side project/potential small business often gets skewed in these sorts of discussions. Anyone in the startup scene eventually learns the distinction between a startup legitimately chasing high growth and a small business caught up in a trend. Sometimes you should just be a small business, not simply because you as a person are not capable of making something high growth, but because your own circumstances, team, effort, and product simply aren't much beyond a niche play. There's nothing wrong with running a small business, plenty of people live fulfilling lives fully supported by one, but if you really want to be something more (like topping console charts absent a lottery viral win) it's going going to take plenty of chutzpah and commitment. Otherwise as a business model it's way more profitable and time saving to be realistic.

andai 3y ago

The images didn't load for me, but this archived version has them: https://archive.ph/jlWJX https://archive.ph/jlWJX

lastangryman 3y ago

There is such a small market for 4 player local co-op indie games, I think you need something really special to grab people's attention. It was an interesting deconstruction though. The bit about the different trailer variations they needed to create is a great example of the value a good publisher can add. It seems like this team did a lot right though, just not the right game at the right time.

Noumenon72 3y ago

Their last release was in 2016 as well. Hope they're all doing well.

somenameforme 3y ago

This feels like they completely missed the reasons that they failed, which is a great way to ensure they fail again. I don't know how you can blame marketing with a straight face when your game was featured on multiple Nintendo front pages. That's more marketing than like 99.9% of games get, and you're performing way worse than average. The issue isn't marketing. In the article when it gets to the question of whether the game is fun, the developer beats around the bush. 'Well you see...' which is as good as saying, "no." What's "fun" in a hyper-social 'indie fest' type of environment with a bunch of people wanting to like everything, has little relationship to what's fun when you're at home with some friends. In the right environment people can get really hyped and excited over a literal snail race [4]. It doesn't mean those people are watching snail race reruns at home. Then there's the game itself. You can find the game/discussion of it here [1]. There were many complaints about bugs, misleading labeling, poor/buggy and unremappable controls, and more. There were also somewhat more 'positive' questions like somebody simply asking how to even play local-coop since it seems its not well elaborated on in the game. And the developer chose to completely ignore everything and everybody, making a grand total of 4 posts - including 2 about a negative review. There is no recipe for success in games, beyond making good games. Games have become easier to make than ever (even back in 2016), players now have to-play queues months to years long, and there are simply a lot of really good games out there and more being released every day. This game, a silly casual party style game, was directly competing, in 2016, with games like Ultimate Chicken Horse [2]. There's also a lot of other problems. The game's theme isn't unique. It feels like a Goat Simulator [3] rip off, in terms of theme, even today. Incidentally Goat Simulator released just a couple of years prior to this game, so it was going to be bucketed there even harder back then. There's also the issue of price. You're going to be compared against games of the same price (such as Goat Simulator, again), and $10 is a relatively hefty price for this sort of game. The game almost certainly would have well more than 5x the success it did at a price tag like $2, where it can be more comfortably bought as a joke or whatever. And if you want to get into meta-market gimmicking, add Steam cards. There's lots of collectors who will pick up cheap games with cards because in a number of cases, cheap games on discount can be bought for 'profit', where the card values themselves become worth more than the game. But really most of all, just make a fun game. We live in an era where games can stay purchasable indefinitely on both PC and consoles. If you make a game that people will organically go out of their way to recommend, you're going to succeed. There's an ever increasing number of long-tail successes, and in games I expect this to increasingly become the norm. Even for games like GTA V, it's long tail success [5] is really starting to rival that up-front success that marketing budgets in the hundreds of millions buy. --- [1] - https://steamcommunity.com/app/342920/discussions/ https://steamcommunity.com/app/342920/discussions/ [2] - https://store.steampowered.com/app/386940/Ultimate_Chicken_Horse/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/386940/Ultimate_Chicken_H... [3] - https://store.steampowered.com/app/265930/Goat_Simulator/ https://store.steampowered.com/app/265930/Goat_Simulator/ [4] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-6Wwd184uo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-6Wwd184uo [5] - https://steamplayercount.com/app/271590 https://steamplayercount.com/app/271590

AdeptusAquinas 3y ago

Before opening the article I was thinking "I bet its another 2D side-on platformer". The genre isn't even mentioned in the article, but from looking at all the screenshots (as I would on steam) I can't see why I would buy this over the other three thousand or so 'indie platformers' released each week. They need to do something different, not in theme, appearance, gimmicks or whatever, but in actual game style.

epolanski 3y ago

The amount of negativity and criticism in the comments here is sad. Not only I think it's way too easy to criticize other's work and choices (in hindsight), but there's also a total lack of empathy. We should cherish many small developers and entrepeneurs that share their experiences with such honest and thorough posts about the experience as they offer unique and valuable inputs and reflections.

rawbot 3y ago
This was 7 years ago. What good would vapid praising comments do?
- epolanski 3y ago
  I'm saying authors of such content should be cherished for sharing it, and after writing a 30 minute-long article they may deserve some criticism that goes beyond the "obviously they failed with such a name/marketing/game/whatever" seems way too cheap and dismissive especially if not really motivated.
  - badsectoracula 3y ago
    How is it dismissive when that is the reason why they failed? What more can one way when they see a game that doesn't have any interesting visuals, a generic name and overly niche gameplay? Even ignoring that this is a very old article, what sort of feedback do you expect people to give?
    - johnnyanmac 3y ago
      >Even ignoring that this is a very old article, what sort of feedback do you expect people to give? Something higher quality than the most common bike shedding comment in history. Names are important but not tue end all be all. It's also useless feedback becsuse as you said: it's a very old article and the author already acknowledged 7 years ago that the name and genre it got assumedly stuck into didn't help. It's not only not useful feedback, it shows people did not read the article.

ezconnect 3y ago

Re-release it with the title "Get the Goat"

CodinM 3y ago

I'd play that. Thanks for showing this.

a13o 3y ago

I was deeply involved in the indie scene during this time and played many of these local multiplayer games at GDC indie events, weekly barcade meetups, game jams, Indiecade, etc. I think this misled many developers. Your peers are together often, able to play local multiplayer games, and giving you a false sense of market. I played hundreds of hours of these games in that setting, but never once booted them up at home on my own couch. If you weren't careful you could fall into the game developer version of a comedian's comedian. One gameplay critique I think this post-mortem missed was that the keep-away mechanic at the heart of the game is a zero-sum mechanic. One player is keeping away, and having fun; while all other players are being kept away from, which is frustrating. They addressed this a little in the fuller release but I think keep-away itself is mechanically bankrupt so even a gorgeous coat of paint can't bring it around. All of the other local multiplayer 'successes' from this period were distilled fighting games - Towerfall, Nidhogg, Killer Queen, Duck Game, etc. These allowed for new players to enjoy themselves even in defeat. For Toto Temple, a game of mixed newbs and vets would turn into a vet running circles for the full time limit and then someone suggesting we switch to Towerfall.

johnnyanmac 3y ago
Yeah it's tricky, and in 2016 we were on the tail end where this was perhaps the only way to get genuine feedback from actual humans. A fun game =/= a game people want to buy. Especially for party games.
Quarrelsome 3y ago
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Solvency 3y ago
"Your peers are together often, able to play local multiplayer games, and giving you a false sense of market." Well this sounds like fun. Like the old social arcade experience, but made of people playing fresh indie multiplayer games. Even in prototype form. Why not make THAT a business model? If my town has a little cafe with a few bit screens and controllers, and every night (or even once a week), I could turn up with a bunch of gamers and were all playing novel small games together, that could be really fun. The games could be in varying stages of completion. It wouldn't matter. Because it'd feel like an intimate setting of people just hanging out and socializing and playing things.

greybox 3y ago

This game looks cool, but having trouble when releasing a platformer these days sadly doesn't surprise me, its one of the toughest markets in games right now.

robertlagrant 3y ago

> The process of porting the game was hard by itself, but following up a year of non-creative work with a launch that doesn’t make much noise, nor sell a lot, was pretty hard on all of us. I think classifying the one (!!) programmer's work as uncreative when he got the game running on multiple consoles is completely wrong. That guy is your main asset, and probably your most creative team member.

ReactiveJelly 3y ago
"Creative" and "Un-creative" don't have to mean "Good" and "Bad". "Creative" makes me think someone who is working on story, art assets, gameplay mechanics, etc. Engine work can be good but it is not creative from the player's perspective. Maybe from the programming-for-the-sake-of-programming perspective it is.
- robertlagrant 3y ago
  I don't think it is good and bad; I just also think that creating things is creative. Writing a video game story or drawing its assets aren't the only type of creativity, and in this case it sounds like the creative workload on the technical person was fairly extreme.
  - stoniejohnson 3y ago
    I think the term 'non-creative' was just used as a practical distinction when discussing 'creating <the game>' versus 'porting <the game>'. I don't think the author intended to comment about the quality or even creativity of any developer's work.
    - robertlagrant 3y ago
      Why not call the drawing the non-creative bit, then, if it's purely a distinction? (-:
      - 3y ago

ReactiveJelly 3y ago

I remember reading a dev diary from Toto Temple years ago, about making their character select menu run in-engine so they could make sure all 4 players knew how to use the dash move. Then I lost track of the game. It's funny that 2 years after this article, in 2018, Celeste became a triple-I hit using a similar dash move but single-player. Turns out pixel platformers still had some juice left, but couch MP is never coming back.

xwdv 3y ago

This has all the hallmarks of typical soulless, extra juicy hyper stimulating arcade games that are so common and commoditized. The name of course is just randomly chosen words thrown together that aren’t too offensive and implies some kind of vague theme. Don’t know who Toto is, why there’s a temple and what makes this so deluxe from the original Toto Temple, but also seems like it doesn’t matter. And this is what I tell most indie devs: you’re probably going to be a failure. So don’t go down making some bland cookie cutter game trying to make a few bucks. Make something truly unique, shocking, strange, something that no producer would touch, because you’re independent and can do whatever you want. You might not make money, but you might win some real fans. And in the end, what matters on this journey is the friends you make along the way and touching people’s lives with your game.

belugacat 3y ago
One of the most inspiring things I heard was - if I recall correctly - the Dead Space director giving a talk at GDC. They were talking how from the get go their mentality was - if we're going to make a horror game, it has to be the most fucking horrifying game anyone has played. If we make a horror game that's kind of scary but not that extreme, then what are we doing? I've strived to carry that mentality in all my projects since.

diabolo96 3y ago

The problem of indie games is that indie devs with no prior knowledge of programming, no prior artistic talent, either in terms of crafting an enticing narrative and/or graphical design wake up one day, decide to drop of university/quit their job to create their big commercial "dream game". The problem is that they often jump over the first step of learning how to make a game and go straight to publish their barely passable buggy mishmash of half baked ideas with no quality control or beta-testing done. What they first should've done is make and publish a few small but fun games for free, learn from their mistakes and user inputs and use their new knowledge to make a bigger, better game. If enough people tell them that it's worth buying it then they can sell it .

rideontime 3y ago
What part of the article gives you the impression that this was the case?
- diabolo96 3y ago
  i meant in general.
  - rideontime 3y ago
    Ah. Did you have any opinion on the article?
    - diabolo96 3y ago
      When i was a kid I spent hours and hours playing Burrito Bison on Newgrounds so I know Juicy Beast know how to make games, really good and enjoyable games. As for the article, it was an interesting read and I almost predicted every raison why the game was a failure but I don't agree with some: 1.The "strike a deal first" one is nonsensical. Get famous enough on one platform and the sales will be as good on the others. 2. Only one console at a time should've been obvious ( currently it's the Switch first, others later) I also think that a significant part of the failure comes from the fact that the market was saturated with party games at the time as i remember seeing a lot of ads about similar games and then it just stopped. Also, these kind of games are not really that interesting and become repetitive very fast and no single-player / online multi-player killed it before it was even out.

msie 3y ago

Off-topic, Only Up is one of the best games Ive seen in years. Check it on YouTube.

Kapura 3y ago

Extremely detailed and good analysis, and I agree with just about every point. A lot of it feels like a mystery story, 'why did this game that had good convention vibes not sell?' and I think their ultimate root cause analysis is spot on: > we think the biggest factor is because it’s a local-multiplayer game with no online play. Ultimately it's important to think about who the people on the other end of the console are who buy the game are looking for; in 2023, multiplayer games without online play don't fill a critical niche. I think it's easy to see people at festivals enjoying a game and think it's guaranteed money, but festival games atmosphere is unique, and not necessarily the same as just some dude scrolling thru steam looking for something to play.

musicale 3y ago
Conventions like PAX are basically the perfect environment for a pick-up-and-play multiplayer game. There may be a shrinking market for those sorts of games, but I expect there are many people who only play Mario Kart and Super Smash Bros. locally and never go online.

pier25 3y ago

> At the end of the day, we think the biggest factor is because it’s a local-multiplayer game with no online play. I actually played the game with the OUYA and then on PC. I think it failed simply because it wasn't super fun. We consistently got bored after 10mins of playing it. Compare it to Towerfall. Also local multiplayer only and released initially for the OUYA. We played it for hours on end and I think it was a great commercial success.

falcor84 3y ago
Seems that even though Towerfall was indeed the best-selling game on the OUYA, it only sold 7000 units there, while making actual money on other platforms [0]. [0] https://www.engadget.com/2014-04-29-towerfall-tiny-sales-ouya.html https://www.engadget.com/2014-04-29-towerfall-tiny-sales-ouy...

whywhywhywhy 3y ago

Trailers are important and this one doesn’t convey what’s going on or why someone should be interested. Couch coop only is an obvious mistake too because your convincing someone to buy on the off chance people will want to play it with them

chihuahua 3y ago
The trailer looks like pure twitchy chaos to me, even after watching it twice. And the article has a detailed description of how the developer thinks the trailer perfectly explains every detail. To me, it's still incomprehensible chaos, and it tells me almost nothing.

YChacker100 3y ago

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antigirl 3y ago

I loved this game and purchased it on PS4 as soon as it was available. Had some fun games with friends too. Surprised to see it didn't sell well. Theres not many fun instant pick up and play local multiplayer games.

honkycat 3y ago

I was one of those kids who LOVED video games, and I went to school to learn how to make them. Thankfully, I listened to my parents, and got a degree in Computer Science instead of a game focused major. I tried for a long time time do the indie dev thing, but i just didn't have the commitment to stick with it after a full time job. The friends I went to school with who DID end up in games are not working on Dark Souls 3. They tend to work on shitty mobile games with barely any game play, and make half as much as I do with a way less portable skill set. Personally: I am happy with how it all turned out. I prefer building actually useful tools and applications over building shitty video games. After reading enough of these indie game funerals, I have come to the conclusion that there just isn't a market there anymore. I think the data agrees with me here. I also make music in my free time, and it is a similar issue. I pour work into my music, and for what? For nobody to care or to listen to it. So it goes.

remram 3y ago

Move or Die is a similar game, except it has hilarious narration, many game modes, a ton of mutators, and online multiplayer. Taking a look at Steam, it is $15 to Toto Temple's $10. It's just too small a game in a very competitive genre.

madsbuch 3y ago

I just started gaming again after 10 years not doing it. I got a Switch, though I usually would have gamed on a PC. It has really narrowed in my reason to game: The story. Usually, I would not have bought into franchises, but I am giving in. The fact that Zelda already has so much culture, makes it a hit for me.