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Tell HN: Google search sucks even more during Reddit blackout
It's crazy that so much content is now unaccessible due to subs going private. I don't know what to blame more: centralization of forums into one giant company like Reddit, or Google's algorithm that still shows those private Reddit pages.
- neovialogistics 3y agoI think there is a third cause: the low visibility of high quality non-Reddit forums on Google against the tide of low-quality results. There's some kind of SEO exploit that Google is unable to counter. Apparently, by creating bot accounts on a semi-reputable social media platform like LiveJournal, Baidu or Reddit and having them post endless links to each other from website X, website X is inflated on Google even if no humans interact with any of the bot posts/accounts. I don't work in SEO and have never bothered to investigate this, it's purely a topic that keeps coming up in the twitter posts of one of the owners of Livejournal-spinoff Dreamwidth (their account is @Rahaeli).
- ricardobeat 3y agoI don't think I've ever seen a result linking to Baidu or LiveJournal, and Reddit is always legitimate content. Might be a location thing?
- neovialogistics 3y agoThat's not what I'm saying. * Make posts linking to X on platform of choice. * Google starts linking to X (not the posts about X).
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- SllX 3y agoReddit has tons of spam that I run into whenever I try to search for any kind of prior product information or advice through the API. As of June 30th, maybe that will no longer be my problem, but I don’t think the spam links will cease.
- asdff 3y agoGoogle loves to group results by domain too. Say you search for something related to your hobby. Somewhere on the page is going to be a hit from the forum for that hobby, but just below it in a smaller font will be like a half dozen sub hits from that same domain, then that's all there is for that domain in the search results. Never mind that all the relevant knowledge online on this something might be contained in that forum, effectively below the fold until you expose it with the the site:forum.com flag, but this requires a priori knowledge of forum.com being a good source to use for your something.
- moneywoes 3y agoDoesn’t it depend on the domain authority of the back links? Sites like Reddit are no follow so I don’t understand why a bot reposting links there would bolster its ranking
- WillPostForFood 3y agoGoogle has been more squishy on nofollow in the last few years: https://twitter.com/g33konaut/status/1225704499660107776 https://twitter.com/g33konaut/status/1225704499660107776 So Google does follow nofollow links. In this tweet you can see they won't go as far as definitely saying there is no impact on page rank. https://twitter.com/dannysullivan/status/1532037901403336704 https://twitter.com/dannysullivan/status/1532037901403336704
- bombcar 3y agoMy theory is that google ignores nofollow at its own discretion.
- 2pEXgD0fZ5cF 3y agoIt's really disturbing just how bad Google search has become. For so many cases Google actually is only useful as a search interface for Reddit, StackOverflow, and other sites that accumulate (and actually garbage collect) knowledge. Without such a qualifier Google will just give you absolute SEO trash results for many types of searches.
- neovialogistics 3y agoI'd love the following combination: * A search engine that only crawls and searches a whitelist of sites. * Community functionality to vote on the contents of the whitelist.
- jraph 3y agoOr have it crawl anything but be able to provide allow lists the way uBlock Origin allows picking block lists. But I'm not sure I would want an allow list approach. How to you run into new interesting websites? How would people find your new website? A block list would be good though.
- siva7 3y agowhen was the last time you found a new interesting website over google search? i can’t even remember and i used google daily.
- jraph 3y agoI don't use Google, but I certainly want my search engine to return interesting and relevant stuff I don't know about. I don't keep track of my discoveries, but I found some cool recipes even recently hosted on (sometimes independent) websites I didn't know.
- basch 3y agoIve wondered, with 200,000 employees, how close you could get to something useful, by tasking them all with part time wiki editing/building. Hand build an internal ranking of web quality, keeping in mind that different posts being high quality, don't automatically make all posts at that host domain quality. The surfacing of information could still be very automated.
- jraph 3y agoMaybe this is a good time to mention the Web Archives browser extension [1] that offers links to various cache / archive providers for any page you visit from a toolbar button. There are many such extensions, this is the one I've been using occasionally. Simple but very useful. I haven't tried since the beginning of the Reddit strike though, I don't use Google and I only very occasionally run into Reddit pages. I know ArchiveTeam has asked help to archive Reddit [2]. (not affiliated to anything mentioned) [1] https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/view-page-archive/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/view-page-arc... [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36254172 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36254172
- fraXis 3y agoI never knew about this. Thanks. Here is the Chrome extension link: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/web-archives/hkligngkgcpcolhcnkgccglchdafcnao https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/web-archives/hklig... And the link for Microsoft Edge: https://microsoftedge.microsoft.com/addons/detail/web-archives/apcfghlggldjdjepjnahfdjgdcdekhda https://microsoftedge.microsoft.com/addons/detail/web-archiv...
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- emodendroket 3y agoYou might also have like with “unddit” for Reddit specifically.
- faangsticle 3y agoDidn't google used to show a link to their cached version for every result?
- jraph 3y agoThey definitely did. I don't know if it's still there, maybe in some (hamburger) menu attached to the results, if any? In any case I think their cache is still readable, but their googlebot is fast and may be quick to get rid of the cache if a page disappears… Recently, I've had bad luck with search engine caches when trying to read a page that does not exist anymore.
- IvyMike 3y agoGoogle should probably just buy Reddit and run it at a loss. This may not be good for us the users, and might end up killing Reddit in the long run, but it's better for both Google and Reddit than the current situation.
- gregw134 3y agoThey would probably love to buy Reddit but would be blocked by regulators.
- addaon 3y agoWhat's the difference for users between Google buying Reddit and Reddit just shutting down now? One promo cycle? Less? There's no "long run" any more for Google's touch of death, like there was for Google Groups; they've gotten quite good at speed-running value destruction.
- IvyMike 3y agoIt feels like it's more core to Google's search business than the projects normally shut down by Google. Maybe not quite on par with YouTube, but it could be close.
- addaon 3y agoIt seems almost exactly as good a match to Google's search business as Google Groups was...
- IvyMike 3y agoGoogle Groups was never at the level that Reddit currently is, at least in terms of search results.
- randomdata 3y agoDeja News/early Google Groups provided great search results. Google, in usual form, has been working hard to destroy any property outside of Web Search/YouTube for a long, long time, Groups included. The internet is bigger now, so Reddit has an advantage there, but Groups could have been what Reddit became if it received some love instead.
- buildbot 3y agoActually though, is SEO/spam so out of control that allegedly the best software engineers in the world are unable to counter it? Are bad results actually good for google in some perverse ad-based way? Do people at google actually use their products at all?
- ignite 3y agoThe best software engineers in the world are generating it. It pays better than google.
- dageshi 3y agoIt's not that they can't counter it, it's that there's less and less to find...
- Filligree 3y agoA bit of A, a bit of B. More and more of the interesting information is never put on a permanent, accessible website.
- buildbot 3y agoIt’s hard to find old things too that are still there, for queries that used to work just fine.
- waif 3y agoI dunno. I have a blog with niche info, but it doesn't even show up before page 10 or whatever. But technically, it's still indexed... Search engines lost. With ChatGPT it's about to get 10x worse. We could switch back to manual human-curated web directories, or website link lists.
- JohnFen 3y agoI don't think so. One of the things that made me start avoiding google was that it had developed a really huge blind spot for great sites that aren't "name brand". They're still there, but google won't tell you about them.
- 3y ago
- yuy910616 3y agoI never worked in search, curious what are the technical difficulties of implementing a YouTube-style "Don't Recommend This Channel" are? From the outset, the YouTube recommendation can be an offline process, and much easier to scale. Google pretty much has "F-you" level developer man-power to throw at this problem, so I'm somewhat surprised they haven't implemented it yet (the "bad result is good for Google" reasoning never quite made sense to me). I'm curious if the functionality is not worth it or if the technical challenge is insurmountable at Google's scale.
- dharmab 3y agoI'm using Kagi search that allows you to raise, lower or block websites from your search results.
- winrid 3y agoIt would be neat to auto block sponsored content. Setup honey pots and just start blocking sites that are notorious for it.
- MrStonedOne 3y ago[dead]
- kylecazar 3y agoI haven't noticed this, but have seen the complaints. I don't tend to see many reddit links in my search results, and haven't noticed a change since that blackout. Perhaps just the nature of my searches?
- lotsoweiners 3y agoI usually don’t see many Reddit results in my searches either. According to previous threads on HN a lot of people append site:Reddit to their Google searches so perhaps that is what they are referring to.
- olalonde 3y agoSame. It would be nice if someone would share some example queries. I use Google quite a bit but rarely end up on Reddit, nor do I feel Google search quality has been going down over time.
- AussieWog93 3y agoAs a concrete example, I run a used retro games business. Proper technical manuals don't exist for the repair work that I need to do; finding the solution to a problem I can't work out myself is a mix of YouTube, Reddit and a looooot of filtering out bullshit.
- Rapzid 3y agoI don't get a ton either which is odd because I OFTEN add "reddit" onto my search and get way better results for what I'm looking for. Kinda odd how Google search hasn't learned yet that Reddit results are higher quality, at least for me? Almost like it's not optimizing for quality of results... It's almost like Google's optimizing for revenue on results has created the Reddit situation. Can't find better results without filtering for Reddit explicitly, so people end up on Reddit and end up posting on Reddit and around and around it goes.
- olalonde 3y ago> I don't get a ton either which is odd because I OFTEN add "reddit" onto my search and get way better results for what I'm looking for. Could you give some example queries?
- seydor 3y agoIt's not reddit 's fault, it was users' choice
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- retrofuturism 3y agoGoogle's cached versions of reddit pages are coming in handy these days.
- xnx 3y agoThe fragility of web pages is a good argument for generating query responses directly (e.g. via LLM) vs. returning links to pages.
- aaron695 3y ago[dead]
- WirelessGigabit 3y agoI've said it before, the web's demise is Google's fault. SEO optimization has pushed content 'producers' to generate page after page. There are websites that have a page for every Microsoft KB<number> error out there pointing to their own product. It even is starting to overtake YouTube. All just to get higher in Google and push (malicious) ads to visitors.
- marginalia_nu 3y agoWhat you're seeing on Google is the content that's most well adapted to Google's algorithm. There's a lot of stuff that is not as well adapted. For the most part it hasn't gone away, it's just not able to compete with the bullshit. At the same time I don't think Google is exclusively at fault. I think their dominance in shaping web traffic is a far bigger factor.
- jmye 3y agoI would expand on that to say that Google's algorithm no longer has anything to do with showing you the best results. It has been altered or adjusted to show you or get you to click on the most ads. It's the same thing Facebook did with its feed, except that Google isn't, generally, monetizing platform engagement (though YouTube certainly is). So yes, it's some part SEO, but it's also Google biasing things that aren't actually the 'best' results for what you're searching for in order to show more ads.
- WWLink 3y agoI think this is EXACTLY the problem with algorithms and AIs to build an index. You don't have a human in the loop to go "ok, enough of this bullshit, if you keep doing this we're going to ban you from our service." The whole "ladder climb to first place" ruined search results. There was nothing wrong with being on page 2 -- if page 2 contained USEFUL RESULTS TO BEGIN WITH. Usually you get half a page of local stuff, followed by half a page of useful stuff, followed by maybe 2-3 pages of gibberish and regurgitated stuff. Like a reddit topic will be posted on a bunch of 'forums' verbatim with all the comments as replies, because there are that many 'fake forum' sites out there seeded with that content lol. Same with stack overflow, really. (maybe stack overflow clones are the worst). My favorite are the info sites that try to get you to download malware to solve your problem. XD
- duringmath 3y agoAny specific examples you can share? I haven't experienced any decline in quality so maybe I'm not searching for the right things. It makes sense that when a bunch of content goes dark it would have an impact so a few specific examples would be appreciated.
- FireSquirrel 3y agoLook up anything involving computer hardware, all the pcmasterrace/PC uilder/etc subs were locked so only a few sentences showed on search. Was miserable when folks referenced a thread and couldn't get to it lol.
- boomboomsubban 3y agoDuckduckgo has somewhat recently added a feature where with some searches they'll spot you're trying to search for Reddit posts, and ask if you want more of them displayed. It's a useful addition for the habit I've picked up of adding "reddit" to searches to limit the blog spam. It's a shame it came out now, when reddit is increasingly full of spam and now is blowing itself up.
- marginalia_nu 3y agoIt's funny, I've seen spam sites in my web crawls that append have 'reddit' appended to the page title. I've never seen such search results appear in any search results, but points for effort.
- boomboomsubban 3y agoBoth DDG and Google have some default rules to limit the number of results from one domain. So those clear spam attempts may not make it, but I've seen many sites that include something like "this item is popular on Reddit for x reason, but they don't pay us so it's actually not that great."
- iLoveOncall 3y agoBlame the Reddit moderators taking a unilateral decision for sham reasons.
- sshine 3y agoCan you clarify what the sham reasons are?
- iLoveOncall 3y agoModerations tools (Reddit has stated many times that they would retain free access to the API), blind users not being able to use the official clients (they are accessible beside very few actions that are only used by mods, easy to fix and commitment has been made on those), and porn being removed from the API (porn in the 3rd party apps is the hill people wanna die on?). This protest has been fabricated by the multi-millionaire 3rd party apps developers that want to keep the free money flowing.
- dom96 3y agoToday while I was searching it was a double whammy because Stackoverflow was down. So Reddit content was gone and StackOverflow too. That's basically the two resources for coding knowledge gone.
- whiplash451 3y agoCome on, you still had geeks4geeks! /s
- Rapzid 3y agoRTFM and #GetGud. That's what we did in my day. Sure only nerds could stand using the software we produced, and installing any software was a dice roll on corrupting the windows registry, but hot-damn if you couldn't be wrong with the confidence that nobody will know better! /s
- dailyplanet 3y agoI'm trying to write a book and researching some niche old stuff and trying to extract info from 90s websites (some of the websites are dead and I don't know how to search Internet Archives), and Google Search is becoming hopeless, so I've been switching to yandex.com to find stuff. Even Google Image Search is terrible now and I use TinEye.com and yandex.com for that. I should probably try Bing more as well.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- nava 3y agoCheckout thegigabrain.com
- jadtz 3y agoare you part of the gigabrain team?
- tester756 3y agojust "whatever you want -site:reddit.com"
- totallywrong 3y agoAfter so many years I no longer use Google at all, for anything. In particular with search, all those ads showing as organic results at the top drove me away. I switched to DDG and have been in general happy with it.
- rifty 3y agoBetween ArchiveTeam and Pushshift, I guess search engines should deliver those instead of the Reddit domain. A lot of the discussion topics have enduring usefulness and so searching a more stable source makes sense.
- FireSquirrel 3y agoYes! Sheesh just trying to research a GPU all the results were dead with a half sentence preview the only thing to go off of. I can't imagine someone trying to find niche info right now if that was my experience.
- machdiamonds 3y agoIronically, LLMs could be a game-changer in dealing with SEO noise, not at the search stage, but during the indexing of web pages. By understanding context and semantics, they could help create a more refined and relevant index, effectively cutting through the clutter of SEO-optimized content.
- jadtz 3y agoAnd then all these sites will start implementing LMO (language model optimized), and we will lose it all, once again.
- chrismino45 3y ago[flagged]