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A developer's view of Vision Pro

237 points by ingve 3y ago

billconan 3y ago
I feel that it's difficult to develop any graphics intensive app as an indie developer.
- Groxx 3y ago
  Is this somehow relevant to the article, or just an "indie games are hard" lament?
  - billconan 3y ago
    this is my reason for not being a day-one developer this time.
- taeric 3y ago
  It is difficult to develop any asset heavy application as an independent developer. Pretty much period. You have to find a way to contract out assets, or you will drown. Unless you mean the programming of 3d transformations and such. That is, of course, still hard. Most of the platforms have done a ton of that work for you, though.
- RugnirViking 3y ago
  if you can 3d model in any capacity I reckon you can make VR apps, ive seen plenty of them done at game jams near here, including some that won. Don't need movie-quality textures or whatever, a cartoonly low-poly look works well. Don't let the player move, thats a can of worms. speaking of 3d modelling, I taught myself this year in my spare time over a few weeks, and feel im pretty good at it now, ive made scifi wargaming terrain im happy with and almost considering selling some. Blender is free and good and there are literally endless high quality tutorials for almost any specific object you might want to make and after ten or so you will be able to generalise to anything simple you choose. Of course human bodies are more complicated and I was intimidated but I found sculpting caricatures fun despite not being an artist in the slightest after following an excellent tutorial
gavi 3y ago
As an early developer (Day 1 of App Store launch in 2008 - iRetroPhone) there is some excitement of being the first on a new platform. Back in 2008, there was very little documentation on UIKit but it was fun to develop. The difference I see this time is we had access to the iPhone(released 2007) and this time[1] it looks like you need to either ask Apple to test the app for you, or go to one of the labs (not in NYC strangely) or be one of the lucky ones to be selected for developer kit. One more thing I found strange was the current Xcode 15 beta does not even come with Vision OS SDK (coming later this month) and we cant even play with the WWDC session videos in the simulator [1]https://developer.apple.com/visionos/work-with-apple/ https://developer.apple.com/visionos/work-with-apple/
- Dudester230602 3y ago
  Enthusiasts will be asking to get access, while professionals will be paid to come and build.
- basisword 3y ago
  >> The difference I see this time is we had access to the iPhone(released 2007) and this time[1] it looks like you need to either ask Apple to test the app for you, or go to one of the labs (not in NYC strangely) or be one of the lucky ones to be selected for developer kit. I'm pretty sure iPad's weren't available in advance of the launch day. And, it launched first in the US. I had an iPad app available on launch day and wasn't able to get my hands on an iPad for a month or two. Of course, developing only in the simulator for iPhone/iPad isn't a huge deal...visionOS is probably a lot harder to simulate particularly when it comes to understanding user interaction.
  - gavi 3y ago
    Agree, the visionOS is harder to simulate, but the SDK not being available is a bummer.
Temporary_31337 3y ago
I was kind of waiting for the day where a touchscreen based app would be more productive than a traditional laptop with keyboard. Yet, after many years all we got is fruit ninja and a concession from apple in the form of attachable keyboard for the iPad. So I’m equally sceptical that the investment in headset based interface is actually worth it.
- sebzim4500 3y ago
  I think some artists use an ipad with a stylus rather than tablet input to a laptop/desktop, but other than this I can't see how anything else could compete with a keyboard in terms of productivity. Maybe if someone makes a really, really good voice to text interface.
  - noelsusman 3y ago
    Here's a short demo of a pretty good voice to text interface that's available for free: https://twitter.com/lunixbochs/status/1378159234861264896 https://twitter.com/lunixbochs/status/1378159234861264896 I had to use it for a while when I was unable to touch a keyboard or mouse while recovering from RSI and I was surprised by how quickly I was able to get to about 80% of my previous productivity using just my voice. I still use it sometimes even though my RSI is fully healed.
  - elzbardico 3y ago
    > Maybe if someone makes a really, really good voice to text interface. Maybe it could work, unless you're programming in APL :-)
  - bamfly 3y ago
    I could see walking around the room thinking and doing clicky-stuff and looking at things, then sitting in front of a keyboard to type. Basically, what I do when I'm on a call and have wireless headphones on.
- ladberg 3y ago
  I agree the keyboard will remain as the best text input device but I'm pretty confident that eye tracking will be categorically better than a mouse/trackpad. I'll expect that eye tracking solutions for normal monitors will also become more mainstream once people get used to it in the Vision Pro and want to use it elsewhere.
thomastjeffery 3y ago
That was a lot of words for nothing to say... To sum up the entire article in one sentence: The author got to play with the thing, and is very excited to develop software for it.
- Krasnol 3y ago
  Also: don't cry about the price. Quality costs money. Altogether sounded like an GPT Apple Ad.
  - TillE 3y ago
    It's true though, the device is clearly intentionally overbuilt, it's not like Apple is adding some huge arbitrary markup.
    - Krasnol 3y ago
      We'll see about that.
    - crooked-v 3y ago
      From the previews people have had so far, I feel like they decided their target was "could plausibly and comfortably replace a computer day 1 even for someone who had never used a VR device before", then went backwards from the hardware needed for that to figure out their price point.
      - wincy 3y ago
        Can I write software using Xcode day 1 for this? Do I need to also have a Mac? I mean I do have a Mac but an extra $3500 is steep. That said I’ve planned to get one since I heard rumors years ago that this was in the works. I sort of expected it to be a full replacement for a MacBook though.
        Joeri 3y ago
        Apple has an app developer story for ipad with swift playgrounds. It would not surprise me that their long term strategy is to grow that into the default app dev experience and have it be on all platforms, including visionOS. As for developing from day one, web development should be ok, as things like vs code online have really opened ip options.
cdchn 3y ago
Not so sure I agree with the pricing strategy. It feels to me they aimed squarely for MacBook Pro pricing.
- 0zemp3c 3y ago
  [flagged]
- replete 3y ago
  Hololens 2 is the same price...
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- squeaky-clean 3y ago
  It's basically a macbook pro with 2x near-4k oled screens and 12 cameras.
  - cdchn 3y ago
    A feel like a ton of what they demo'd were "things you'd use a macbook pro for otherwise" as well. Video conferencing, productivity things, etc.
agentultra 3y ago
I'm curious how the economics work out. I don't think it's unrealistic to believe that the customer base that are going to be buying visionOS applications is going to be very limited compared to everything else. Very few people are going to shell out 3.4k for a niche product like this. HoloLens found it's niche in commercial sectors like manufacturing and logistics so there's a potential path to make a profitable software business in that direction. However I'm curious what makes this play exciting for indie developers who might not have enough cash for a "long play" here. For iOS it wasn't difficult to see what the benefit would be and iPad only expanded the audience (and breadth of applications having more power under the hood). This is quite a bit different: the technology has been here for a while but the audience seems to be missing (or not as big as you'd think). What's the play here for small businesses? Just use a portion of your budget to throw spaghetti at the wall?
- Krasnol 3y ago
  Maybe this is supposed to become an arcade experience for those with normal wages?
- bee_rider 3y ago
  I suspect the only play would be: develop developer tools for those developers who do have the budget for a long play. If Apple wants AR in their normal non-gaming, non-niche segment to work out, they are going to have to come out with a sleek $1000 device in a couple years. They’d have to be very stupid to not realize that, and it couldn’t possibly be the case that you get a trillion dollars by being stupid, right?
  - agentultra 3y ago
    Right, I think they will eventually come out with a non-Pro device eventually... and price is only one factor in adoption. They could be signalling that they only want a small number of users for these things. > it couldn’t possibly be the case that you get a trillion dollars by being stupid, right? ... I mean, the fossil fuel industry likes to think it's smart but what it's doing is incredibly stupid. I'm not sure Apple got to a trillion dollars on merit alone.
racl101 3y ago
Looks cool. Would like to try. Too expensive to buy however. Will wait for a substantial price reduction on later versions with bugs worked out ... hopefully in the magnitude of 2 / 3rds less before I'd even consider buying it. Thats' about it.
thefounder 3y ago
I would buy this if it can replace my current monitor(s) for development/coding. Price is not issue for many people as long as it can do your daywork easier.
- macintux 3y ago
  I’m skeptical about the ergonomics but that definitely seems to be viable.
- andrewmunsell 3y ago
  It could work, with a Mac (which is unfortunate, given the Vision Pro's HW is equivalent to the Mac you "need" just to run the right software). It's an unfortunate limitation that you can only run one 4k "virtual monitor" from a Mac, but presumably your IDE & terminal would live in the virtual Mac screen and all of your documentation, etc. would be "native" in the headset
  - gpm 3y ago
    For the vast majority of my work vscode stuffed into a browser-like window using SSH remotes would be fine, and would remove the "single 4k screen from a mac" restriction.
    - andrewmunsell 3y ago
      I tried this with the iPad for a while but it ended up just being too buggy (weird cursor and scrolling errors, in particular). I wonder if it'll be any better using eye tracking as a cursor
- scarface_74 3y ago
  I’m a “hybrid digital nomad”. My wife and I travel six months out of the year and we stay in our “Condotel”[1] that we own the other six months. We can’t buy anything that we can’t carry in our four suitcases since we can’t keep anything in our unit when it’s rented out. I might buy it just for the multi monitor setup and to get rid of my extra USB-C video/usb-c portable monitor and my iPad for a 3 monitor setup in smaller spaces. [1] a Condotel is where you own the entire condo unit. But it gets rented out as a hotel room when you aren’t there and you get the income minus the property management fees
ladberg 3y ago
> In short, my brain has crossed a Rubicon and now feels like experiences constrained to small, rectangular screens are lesser experiences. I left Apple 1.5 years ago but was working on the Vision Pro while I was there. I have spend many hours working in the headset and I know exactly the feeling he's describing! Leaving felt like going back in time to using clunky technology and I've been waiting for outside world to catch up (and will still be waiting until it comes out at least). For the past week I've been trying to explain to people how certain I am that doing work in headsets will become mainstream but am (understandably) met with doubt, and I think you'd need to try it on to fully understand.
- macintux 3y ago
  From your experience with it, what do you think about the fatigue factor, either visually or just neck strain? From all accounts it’s quite heavy.
  - jondwillis 3y ago
    Unironically it might be smart to start 3d printing and testing some iNeckBrace designs.
    - Vecr 3y ago
      Or a bump helmet and hook the whole thing to the Night Vision Goggle mount on the front (like the new IVAS design), and put counterweights on the back to prevent it from shifting down. That could take a lot of pressure off your face and make the whole headborne system more balanced.
      - kitsunesoba 3y ago
        Counterweights are already a pretty common thing for existing VR headsets. Some people will strap a battery pack to the back strap of their headsets, and there's enough tethered players looking for plain counterweights that's there's a small cottage industry around custom made heavy metal counterweights. Here's the one that I bought to use with my "frankenquest" (Vive Deluxe Audio Strap on a Quest 2) setup: https://www.studioformcreative.com/product-page/vive-das-200-gram-7-oz-curved-counter-weight https://www.studioformcreative.com/product-page/vive-das-200...
BiteCode_dev 3y ago
To be honest I got excited with the SimulaOne for the exact same reason. But now, seing the Vision Pro, they are going to have a hard time to compete.
BulgarianIdiot 3y ago
> In short, my brain has crossed a Rubicon and now feels like experiences constrained to small, rectangular screens are lesser experiences. The funny thing about this statement is that Vision Pro is in fact the smallest rectangular screen of any device he's written code for. He's hyped up. That's normal. In time he'll understand Vision Pro doesn't provide any better UX for common activities. In fact it's worse in many ways. Where Vision Pro may shine is tasks where you need to perceive and manipulate complex three-dimensional objects, as they would be in physical space. I see great uses in engineering, design, art. It'd be great to preview interior design, design cars, architecture, create machinery and so on. It'll also be great for previewing products, so online stores become a lot more viable than they are now, as you get a sense of size and style for an item in Vision Pro. It may also be great for education, training, simulations. It has many great uses. But basic apps isn't it. And most people won't care. This thing sucks to wear for more than 20 minutes. It's heavy and uncomfortable. You can't share your experience with others, either. It costs a lot. And you can't multitask with it. I can walk to a place and do something on my phone. The input model also sucks. To code, for example, you need to hook a bluetooth keyboard and mouse. Looking at symbols one by one to fingertap would be comically slow. At which point, you may as well just get 2-3 screens and work on a normal workstation. For less money.
- the_overseer 3y ago
  These are just gen1 issues. I expect it will become lighter and lighter until it will probably be like some heavier/bulkier glasses. For the common user it will be amazing for cooking (tells you what to take next and from where and mix in what order, all that fully with arrows on the screen). Or let's say you want to leave your home and it knows that you forgot your keys and it tells you where they are with directions on the screen like the objective marker in a game. It will know where things are in your home even if you don't pay attention to them it will have object recognition in place and you will be able to say "Hey Siri where did I leave my glasses?" and it will point you to them.
  - BulgarianIdiot 3y ago
    Do you recall the wave of people breaking their TVs with the Nintendo Wii controllers? I'd expect a similar wave of people breaking their expensive Vision Pros if they try cooking with one. It's a terrible idea. First, most kitchens are cramped, full of low-hanging cabinets to break your Vision's fragile glass into. And then, keeping those open vents around vapors full of fat and tasty food bits is a great way to cover the circuits with grease. We already have a solution for something telling you what to do next, and it's called an iPad with a stand. A phone also does the job and has much lower chance of incidents than a headset, despite yes, you may need to wash your hands from time to time to scroll down. Or... you can simply use assistive features and voice for that. Siri is going to get a lot smarter thanks to LLM, much sooner than Vision Pro will become light and pragmatic for such purposes. Regarding this "it'll know where things are in your home", let's use basic logic here. It can learn the layout of your rooms and where your immovable furniture is. But no, it can't know where everything that moves is, because this means you literally can't move anything unless you have the headset on to track its location. Or slap expensive AirTags on every single jar and utensil maybe. All solutions would be hilariously impractical. And... we'll end up with where I started: a broken Vision Pro glass as you slam it in a cupboard while trying to fish out a jar of condiments. I don't know what is about VR that makes people pull out the fantasy scenarios. It's simply a (bulky) screen with pass through. It's not a wizard. It can't know things unless there's a way for it to find them. We can imagine a super-thin model that you can keep on your face 24/7 and sleep with it too, so it tracks your entire life forever and knows you better than you know yourself. And it synchronizes with your spouse and children who also wear their own headsets 24/7. And it's unbreakable. And the battery never runs out. We can imagine many things. They don't exist, and won't exist any time soon. "Not on the horizon" as Steve Jobs used to say.
ar_lan 3y ago
I'm interested to try it, but there's a few things holding me back: 1. I tried working in my Oculus Quest for about a week (two years ago) and gave up because the resolution is way too poor, and it's too heavy. 2. The price tag. It looks like the Vision Pro is not a monitor/headset, but rather a computer + monitor all in one. Is that accurate to say? - I am tempted by this future, but I don't see it becoming adoptable for any reasonable users for another 5 years minimum. Plus, for developers to truly adopt it, we'd need to be reasonably sure our workflows (e.g. keyboard/mouse sync and ergonomics, portability, etc.) are increased in speed/comfort to ever consider adopting such a feature.
- waboremo 3y ago
  Yes, it's not just a headset/screen. In their words, a spatial computer. This coming with a new OS also signifies how they really want people to view it as a standalone product rather than a Valve Index which requires a PC to use.
- crooked-v 3y ago
  Going by the hardware and the announced features, the 2D app functionality of the Vision Pro is basically an iPad Pro with full multitasking support.
swozey 3y ago
I play VR games like Skyrim VR quite often and my biggest disappointment, outside of the ridiculous price - is that it's completely gesture controlled. Are there going to be controllers at all? How would you play a game with guns? Make a pew-pew gun with your fingers?
- Vecr 3y ago
  I don't think apple really likes guns, so it would probably have to be third party, but a training pistol with a real belt-mounted holster and an AR upper and lower without the FCG or barrel, both with some tracking markers the Apple goggles can pick up would probably work well. Shooting a rifle with VR controllers does not really work that well, because you can't brace them at all (because the two standard controllers are not attached) and there is no stock. Fix that with a hundred dollars of airsoft knockoff AR-15 parts.
  - deleted 3y ago
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- eddieroger 3y ago
  The promotional video on Apple's site shows a user picking up and using a PS5 controller. iPhones and iPads can pair with third-party controllers today as well as keyboards and mice, so there's really no reason to think that this wouldn't work with those as well, particularly since Apple showed it happening in their video.
  - MBCook 3y ago
    I think it’s very clear this is not positioned for gamers. It may be powerful. It may work very well in some ways (there may be limitations without hand held controllers like an Oculus or PSVR2). But that’s not what Apple is trying to sell. And they clearly don’t want to be pigeonholed as another fancy gamer device.
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zerr 3y ago
The name makes me remind Visual FoxPro.
daemonk 3y ago
None of the existing headsets I've tried has worked out in terms of working setup replacement. If it can replace a desk/monitor and lead to better ergonomics and flexibility, I would pay upwards of 5k for it. I really want Apple to succeed.
hbarka 3y ago
I can't wait for Apple's Wearable Macbook I mean the Vision Pro.
jmiskovic 3y ago
As a VR hobbyist dev I'm divided on how I feel about the device. Price thing is already well discussed, for me it's a tool worth investigating if I should invest time in the ecosystem. Without a doubt, the Vision Pro hardware is a marvel. Having the 3D capture camera in a consumer device would feel like living in the future. The headset design is top notch and seems comfortable. I do have slight worry about how these devices will look like after a year of use. The holographic eye reconstruction screen. A bit unsettling and strange design idea. We're messing around with people's eyes to make the headset friendlier? The frosted glass user interface is classy, aesthetically pleasing and very well put together. Lighting and soft shadow interaction with your environment is amazingly well done. I felt the UX the current user experience seems rather lackluster and limited to a 2D format. The first iPhone also had an old fashioned interface, so my guess is they are building the compatibility bridge for the first release. Maybe the next iteration would be actually spatial and not just panels floating in space? Moreover, the over-reliance on swipe and tap gestures is a point of concern. This design decision is focused on media consumption and limits the overall versatility of the interface. Feels like a very low-bandwidth control method. A significant drawback, for my use at least, is the lack of control over the hardware. Developers are restricted to building Unity applications within a sandboxed environment, which is a privacy feature intended to prevent apps from accessing the eye gaze point. Good idea, better than what Meta's doing. But too restrictive and frustrating for a developer wanting to run their apps on the bought device. Apple is once again marketing an expensive device-platform that caters mainly to larger corporations looking to offer their own 'immersive' experiences. Everything about this screams 'coorporate'. I would like to be proven wrong with some creative apps, but those will probably come through the web browser or streamed from Mac, and not as approved native apps running in gimped Unity engine. Nevertheless, the Vision Pro sets a new benchmark for future headsets. Maybe AR/VR is slowly entering the mainstream?
jimbokun 3y ago
> When I sat down to write this article I was having trouble context shifting back from WWDC mode and wished that I could have gone up to a virtual cabin in the woods, opened a text editor and written it there. Or similarly while I was watching WWDC session videos in my hotel room on my 13” MacBook Pro I found myself wishing for a larger display where I could have the video, notes, documentation and Xcode open all at once. This reinforces the idea that Vision Pro is for a portable, fully immersive work experience. Which dovetails nicely with the post-Covid notion of working in various locations as convenient/affordable. Bring a Vision Pro with you to "the cabin" or hotel or remote working location, to have a more productive experience than just a small laptop. Or college dorm, where you don't have your own dedicated work space.
- mrguyorama 3y ago
  Ah yes, because college kids have $3500 to burn on a novelty.
  - jimbokun 3y ago
    Price will come down.
sergiotapia 3y ago
I still haven't read one single account of a developer actually using it to write code in VSCode/Vim/Emacs. I need to know if the screens looks crisp and are actually a good replacement for a screen for work. I don't mean "powerpoint/drawing" work. I mean wall of text, code work.
- mellosouls 3y ago
  I still haven't read one single account of a developer actually using it to write code in VSCode/Vim/Emacs That's because it hasn't been released yet. All the accounts you are reading are strictly controlled and time-limited demos.
Anonasty 3y ago
Someone said interestingly that with Vision Pro, Apple is giving solution to problem which does not exist.
ftxbro 3y ago
> "Starting on Day One" > "I have been a “day one” developer for three of Apple’s platforms" > "I’m going to be a “day one” developer for the Vision Pro." > "The Economics of “Day One”" > "Look for Widgetsmith for visionOS from “day one”." it looks like a guy who is flexing his "day one" access and using it to advertise some vaporware, and the rest of the words in the blogpost are some fluff maybe gpt could make it
- armadsen 3y ago
  It doesn't take much to get "day one" access like he's describing. I was some random kid with a couple years of (completely self-taught, solo, using free tools) Mac OS X dev experience in 2008, and I had beta access to the SDK and could have had an app out on day one if I had been more disciplined. Same goes for both the iPad and the Apple Watch. The SDKs for both were easily available before the devices shipped.
- codemusings 3y ago
  Salty much FTX Bro? This is David „underscore“ Smith, developer of Widgetsmith and a ton of other successful iOS apps. Genuinely one of the nicest human beings. If anyone has earned the rights to flex its him.
  - ftxbro 3y ago
    > "Salty much FTX Bro?" FTX can still be profitable today if they allow SBF to raise funds. They just didn't understand his vision.
BananaaRepublik 3y ago
Btw, how do any of these work for people with glasses? My vision is too bad to survive without them and I'm sure half the city dwellers around me are too.
- andrewmunsell 3y ago
  You have to purchase (rumored to be expensive) magnetic clip-in prescription lenses, or use contacts. The device is too close to your face to fit glasses
  - TillE 3y ago
    > (rumored to be expensive) Despite Gurman's personal speculation, Zeiss already makes prescription VR lenses for under $100: https://appleinsider.com/articles/23/06/07/vision-pro-prescription-lenses-to-start-at-300-guesses-gurman https://appleinsider.com/articles/23/06/07/vision-pro-prescr... I would pretty confidently bet on $99 for Apple, with an outside chance of $149.
  - senttoschool 3y ago
    I'm 100% sure that a few months after launch, there will be other companies who will sell prescription magnetic lenses for cheap.
bilsbie 3y ago
We’re still constrained to 2d rectangles though. I wonder how we could code in three dimensions or make it feel more physical like wood working somehow. It’s all text based so I can’t really think of how you’d do it.
- mercutio2 3y ago
  What makes you think this? If you choose to use UIKit, yes, you get rectangles. But you are not constrained to UIKit.
zmmmmm 3y ago
> When I sat down to write this article I was having trouble context shifting back from WWDC mode and wished that I could have gone up to a virtual cabin in the woods, opened a text editor and written it there I do this all the time with the Quest Pro. It's resolution isn't quite there but in most other respects it enables the same type of transportation out of current context to somewhere else. Given you can get these now for 1/4 the cost of a Vision Pro, I think dev interested in Vision Pro should pick up a Quest Pro now and then you have both ecosystems to play with / compare and ultimately, if you are building something where it works, ship it on both.
mjsweet 3y ago
Just wondering, any chance that Vision Pro will support flash content?
brokenbyclouds 3y ago
It's going to mess up your hair, your makeup, add weight on your face, and collect face oil like a sponge. Take the keys off your keyboard and roll your face around in that.

237 points by ingve 3y ago

billconan 3y ago

I feel that it's difficult to develop any graphics intensive app as an indie developer.

Groxx 3y ago
Is this somehow relevant to the article, or just an "indie games are hard" lament?
- billconan 3y ago
  this is my reason for not being a day-one developer this time.
taeric 3y ago
It is difficult to develop any asset heavy application as an independent developer. Pretty much period. You have to find a way to contract out assets, or you will drown. Unless you mean the programming of 3d transformations and such. That is, of course, still hard. Most of the platforms have done a ton of that work for you, though.
RugnirViking 3y ago
if you can 3d model in any capacity I reckon you can make VR apps, ive seen plenty of them done at game jams near here, including some that won. Don't need movie-quality textures or whatever, a cartoonly low-poly look works well. Don't let the player move, thats a can of worms. speaking of 3d modelling, I taught myself this year in my spare time over a few weeks, and feel im pretty good at it now, ive made scifi wargaming terrain im happy with and almost considering selling some. Blender is free and good and there are literally endless high quality tutorials for almost any specific object you might want to make and after ten or so you will be able to generalise to anything simple you choose. Of course human bodies are more complicated and I was intimidated but I found sculpting caricatures fun despite not being an artist in the slightest after following an excellent tutorial

gavi 3y ago

As an early developer (Day 1 of App Store launch in 2008 - iRetroPhone) there is some excitement of being the first on a new platform. Back in 2008, there was very little documentation on UIKit but it was fun to develop. The difference I see this time is we had access to the iPhone(released 2007) and this time[1] it looks like you need to either ask Apple to test the app for you, or go to one of the labs (not in NYC strangely) or be one of the lucky ones to be selected for developer kit. One more thing I found strange was the current Xcode 15 beta does not even come with Vision OS SDK (coming later this month) and we cant even play with the WWDC session videos in the simulator [1]https://developer.apple.com/visionos/work-with-apple/ https://developer.apple.com/visionos/work-with-apple/

Dudester230602 3y ago
Enthusiasts will be asking to get access, while professionals will be paid to come and build.
basisword 3y ago
>> The difference I see this time is we had access to the iPhone(released 2007) and this time[1] it looks like you need to either ask Apple to test the app for you, or go to one of the labs (not in NYC strangely) or be one of the lucky ones to be selected for developer kit. I'm pretty sure iPad's weren't available in advance of the launch day. And, it launched first in the US. I had an iPad app available on launch day and wasn't able to get my hands on an iPad for a month or two. Of course, developing only in the simulator for iPhone/iPad isn't a huge deal...visionOS is probably a lot harder to simulate particularly when it comes to understanding user interaction.
- gavi 3y ago
  Agree, the visionOS is harder to simulate, but the SDK not being available is a bummer.

Temporary_31337 3y ago

I was kind of waiting for the day where a touchscreen based app would be more productive than a traditional laptop with keyboard. Yet, after many years all we got is fruit ninja and a concession from apple in the form of attachable keyboard for the iPad. So I’m equally sceptical that the investment in headset based interface is actually worth it.

sebzim4500 3y ago
I think some artists use an ipad with a stylus rather than tablet input to a laptop/desktop, but other than this I can't see how anything else could compete with a keyboard in terms of productivity. Maybe if someone makes a really, really good voice to text interface.
- noelsusman 3y ago
  Here's a short demo of a pretty good voice to text interface that's available for free: https://twitter.com/lunixbochs/status/1378159234861264896 https://twitter.com/lunixbochs/status/1378159234861264896 I had to use it for a while when I was unable to touch a keyboard or mouse while recovering from RSI and I was surprised by how quickly I was able to get to about 80% of my previous productivity using just my voice. I still use it sometimes even though my RSI is fully healed.
- elzbardico 3y ago
  > Maybe if someone makes a really, really good voice to text interface. Maybe it could work, unless you're programming in APL :-)
- bamfly 3y ago
  I could see walking around the room thinking and doing clicky-stuff and looking at things, then sitting in front of a keyboard to type. Basically, what I do when I'm on a call and have wireless headphones on.
ladberg 3y ago
I agree the keyboard will remain as the best text input device but I'm pretty confident that eye tracking will be categorically better than a mouse/trackpad. I'll expect that eye tracking solutions for normal monitors will also become more mainstream once people get used to it in the Vision Pro and want to use it elsewhere.

thomastjeffery 3y ago

That was a lot of words for nothing to say... To sum up the entire article in one sentence: The author got to play with the thing, and is very excited to develop software for it.

Krasnol 3y ago
Also: don't cry about the price. Quality costs money. Altogether sounded like an GPT Apple Ad.
- TillE 3y ago
  It's true though, the device is clearly intentionally overbuilt, it's not like Apple is adding some huge arbitrary markup.
  - Krasnol 3y ago
    We'll see about that.
  - crooked-v 3y ago
    From the previews people have had so far, I feel like they decided their target was "could plausibly and comfortably replace a computer day 1 even for someone who had never used a VR device before", then went backwards from the hardware needed for that to figure out their price point.
    - wincy 3y ago
      Can I write software using Xcode day 1 for this? Do I need to also have a Mac? I mean I do have a Mac but an extra $3500 is steep. That said I’ve planned to get one since I heard rumors years ago that this was in the works. I sort of expected it to be a full replacement for a MacBook though.
      - Joeri 3y ago
        Apple has an app developer story for ipad with swift playgrounds. It would not surprise me that their long term strategy is to grow that into the default app dev experience and have it be on all platforms, including visionOS. As for developing from day one, web development should be ok, as things like vs code online have really opened ip options.

cdchn 3y ago

Not so sure I agree with the pricing strategy. It feels to me they aimed squarely for MacBook Pro pricing.

0zemp3c 3y ago
[flagged]
replete 3y ago
Hololens 2 is the same price...
deleted 3y ago
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squeaky-clean 3y ago
It's basically a macbook pro with 2x near-4k oled screens and 12 cameras.
- cdchn 3y ago
  A feel like a ton of what they demo'd were "things you'd use a macbook pro for otherwise" as well. Video conferencing, productivity things, etc.

agentultra 3y ago

I'm curious how the economics work out. I don't think it's unrealistic to believe that the customer base that are going to be buying visionOS applications is going to be very limited compared to everything else. Very few people are going to shell out 3.4k for a niche product like this. HoloLens found it's niche in commercial sectors like manufacturing and logistics so there's a potential path to make a profitable software business in that direction. However I'm curious what makes this play exciting for indie developers who might not have enough cash for a "long play" here. For iOS it wasn't difficult to see what the benefit would be and iPad only expanded the audience (and breadth of applications having more power under the hood). This is quite a bit different: the technology has been here for a while but the audience seems to be missing (or not as big as you'd think). What's the play here for small businesses? Just use a portion of your budget to throw spaghetti at the wall?

Krasnol 3y ago
Maybe this is supposed to become an arcade experience for those with normal wages?
bee_rider 3y ago
I suspect the only play would be: develop developer tools for those developers who do have the budget for a long play. If Apple wants AR in their normal non-gaming, non-niche segment to work out, they are going to have to come out with a sleek $1000 device in a couple years. They’d have to be very stupid to not realize that, and it couldn’t possibly be the case that you get a trillion dollars by being stupid, right?
- agentultra 3y ago
  Right, I think they will eventually come out with a non-Pro device eventually... and price is only one factor in adoption. They could be signalling that they only want a small number of users for these things. > it couldn’t possibly be the case that you get a trillion dollars by being stupid, right? ... I mean, the fossil fuel industry likes to think it's smart but what it's doing is incredibly stupid. I'm not sure Apple got to a trillion dollars on merit alone.

racl101 3y ago

Looks cool. Would like to try. Too expensive to buy however. Will wait for a substantial price reduction on later versions with bugs worked out ... hopefully in the magnitude of 2 / 3rds less before I'd even consider buying it. Thats' about it.

thefounder 3y ago

I would buy this if it can replace my current monitor(s) for development/coding. Price is not issue for many people as long as it can do your daywork easier.

macintux 3y ago
I’m skeptical about the ergonomics but that definitely seems to be viable.
andrewmunsell 3y ago
It could work, with a Mac (which is unfortunate, given the Vision Pro's HW is equivalent to the Mac you "need" just to run the right software). It's an unfortunate limitation that you can only run one 4k "virtual monitor" from a Mac, but presumably your IDE & terminal would live in the virtual Mac screen and all of your documentation, etc. would be "native" in the headset
- gpm 3y ago
  For the vast majority of my work vscode stuffed into a browser-like window using SSH remotes would be fine, and would remove the "single 4k screen from a mac" restriction.
  - andrewmunsell 3y ago
    I tried this with the iPad for a while but it ended up just being too buggy (weird cursor and scrolling errors, in particular). I wonder if it'll be any better using eye tracking as a cursor
scarface_74 3y ago
I’m a “hybrid digital nomad”. My wife and I travel six months out of the year and we stay in our “Condotel”[1] that we own the other six months. We can’t buy anything that we can’t carry in our four suitcases since we can’t keep anything in our unit when it’s rented out. I might buy it just for the multi monitor setup and to get rid of my extra USB-C video/usb-c portable monitor and my iPad for a 3 monitor setup in smaller spaces. [1] a Condotel is where you own the entire condo unit. But it gets rented out as a hotel room when you aren’t there and you get the income minus the property management fees

ladberg 3y ago

> In short, my brain has crossed a Rubicon and now feels like experiences constrained to small, rectangular screens are lesser experiences. I left Apple 1.5 years ago but was working on the Vision Pro while I was there. I have spend many hours working in the headset and I know exactly the feeling he's describing! Leaving felt like going back in time to using clunky technology and I've been waiting for outside world to catch up (and will still be waiting until it comes out at least). For the past week I've been trying to explain to people how certain I am that doing work in headsets will become mainstream but am (understandably) met with doubt, and I think you'd need to try it on to fully understand.

macintux 3y ago
From your experience with it, what do you think about the fatigue factor, either visually or just neck strain? From all accounts it’s quite heavy.
- jondwillis 3y ago
  Unironically it might be smart to start 3d printing and testing some iNeckBrace designs.
  - Vecr 3y ago
    Or a bump helmet and hook the whole thing to the Night Vision Goggle mount on the front (like the new IVAS design), and put counterweights on the back to prevent it from shifting down. That could take a lot of pressure off your face and make the whole headborne system more balanced.
    - kitsunesoba 3y ago
      Counterweights are already a pretty common thing for existing VR headsets. Some people will strap a battery pack to the back strap of their headsets, and there's enough tethered players looking for plain counterweights that's there's a small cottage industry around custom made heavy metal counterweights. Here's the one that I bought to use with my "frankenquest" (Vive Deluxe Audio Strap on a Quest 2) setup: https://www.studioformcreative.com/product-page/vive-das-200-gram-7-oz-curved-counter-weight https://www.studioformcreative.com/product-page/vive-das-200...

BiteCode_dev 3y ago

To be honest I got excited with the SimulaOne for the exact same reason. But now, seing the Vision Pro, they are going to have a hard time to compete.

BulgarianIdiot 3y ago

> In short, my brain has crossed a Rubicon and now feels like experiences constrained to small, rectangular screens are lesser experiences. The funny thing about this statement is that Vision Pro is in fact the smallest rectangular screen of any device he's written code for. He's hyped up. That's normal. In time he'll understand Vision Pro doesn't provide any better UX for common activities. In fact it's worse in many ways. Where Vision Pro may shine is tasks where you need to perceive and manipulate complex three-dimensional objects, as they would be in physical space. I see great uses in engineering, design, art. It'd be great to preview interior design, design cars, architecture, create machinery and so on. It'll also be great for previewing products, so online stores become a lot more viable than they are now, as you get a sense of size and style for an item in Vision Pro. It may also be great for education, training, simulations. It has many great uses. But basic apps isn't it. And most people won't care. This thing sucks to wear for more than 20 minutes. It's heavy and uncomfortable. You can't share your experience with others, either. It costs a lot. And you can't multitask with it. I can walk to a place and do something on my phone. The input model also sucks. To code, for example, you need to hook a bluetooth keyboard and mouse. Looking at symbols one by one to fingertap would be comically slow. At which point, you may as well just get 2-3 screens and work on a normal workstation. For less money.

the_overseer 3y ago
These are just gen1 issues. I expect it will become lighter and lighter until it will probably be like some heavier/bulkier glasses. For the common user it will be amazing for cooking (tells you what to take next and from where and mix in what order, all that fully with arrows on the screen). Or let's say you want to leave your home and it knows that you forgot your keys and it tells you where they are with directions on the screen like the objective marker in a game. It will know where things are in your home even if you don't pay attention to them it will have object recognition in place and you will be able to say "Hey Siri where did I leave my glasses?" and it will point you to them.
- BulgarianIdiot 3y ago
  Do you recall the wave of people breaking their TVs with the Nintendo Wii controllers? I'd expect a similar wave of people breaking their expensive Vision Pros if they try cooking with one. It's a terrible idea. First, most kitchens are cramped, full of low-hanging cabinets to break your Vision's fragile glass into. And then, keeping those open vents around vapors full of fat and tasty food bits is a great way to cover the circuits with grease. We already have a solution for something telling you what to do next, and it's called an iPad with a stand. A phone also does the job and has much lower chance of incidents than a headset, despite yes, you may need to wash your hands from time to time to scroll down. Or... you can simply use assistive features and voice for that. Siri is going to get a lot smarter thanks to LLM, much sooner than Vision Pro will become light and pragmatic for such purposes. Regarding this "it'll know where things are in your home", let's use basic logic here. It can learn the layout of your rooms and where your immovable furniture is. But no, it can't know where everything that moves is, because this means you literally can't move anything unless you have the headset on to track its location. Or slap expensive AirTags on every single jar and utensil maybe. All solutions would be hilariously impractical. And... we'll end up with where I started: a broken Vision Pro glass as you slam it in a cupboard while trying to fish out a jar of condiments. I don't know what is about VR that makes people pull out the fantasy scenarios. It's simply a (bulky) screen with pass through. It's not a wizard. It can't know things unless there's a way for it to find them. We can imagine a super-thin model that you can keep on your face 24/7 and sleep with it too, so it tracks your entire life forever and knows you better than you know yourself. And it synchronizes with your spouse and children who also wear their own headsets 24/7. And it's unbreakable. And the battery never runs out. We can imagine many things. They don't exist, and won't exist any time soon. "Not on the horizon" as Steve Jobs used to say.

ar_lan 3y ago

I'm interested to try it, but there's a few things holding me back: 1. I tried working in my Oculus Quest for about a week (two years ago) and gave up because the resolution is way too poor, and it's too heavy. 2. The price tag. It looks like the Vision Pro is not a monitor/headset, but rather a computer + monitor all in one. Is that accurate to say? - I am tempted by this future, but I don't see it becoming adoptable for any reasonable users for another 5 years minimum. Plus, for developers to truly adopt it, we'd need to be reasonably sure our workflows (e.g. keyboard/mouse sync and ergonomics, portability, etc.) are increased in speed/comfort to ever consider adopting such a feature.

waboremo 3y ago
Yes, it's not just a headset/screen. In their words, a spatial computer. This coming with a new OS also signifies how they really want people to view it as a standalone product rather than a Valve Index which requires a PC to use.
crooked-v 3y ago
Going by the hardware and the announced features, the 2D app functionality of the Vision Pro is basically an iPad Pro with full multitasking support.

swozey 3y ago

I play VR games like Skyrim VR quite often and my biggest disappointment, outside of the ridiculous price - is that it's completely gesture controlled. Are there going to be controllers at all? How would you play a game with guns? Make a pew-pew gun with your fingers?

Vecr 3y ago
I don't think apple really likes guns, so it would probably have to be third party, but a training pistol with a real belt-mounted holster and an AR upper and lower without the FCG or barrel, both with some tracking markers the Apple goggles can pick up would probably work well. Shooting a rifle with VR controllers does not really work that well, because you can't brace them at all (because the two standard controllers are not attached) and there is no stock. Fix that with a hundred dollars of airsoft knockoff AR-15 parts.
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eddieroger 3y ago
The promotional video on Apple's site shows a user picking up and using a PS5 controller. iPhones and iPads can pair with third-party controllers today as well as keyboards and mice, so there's really no reason to think that this wouldn't work with those as well, particularly since Apple showed it happening in their video.
- MBCook 3y ago
  I think it’s very clear this is not positioned for gamers. It may be powerful. It may work very well in some ways (there may be limitations without hand held controllers like an Oculus or PSVR2). But that’s not what Apple is trying to sell. And they clearly don’t want to be pigeonholed as another fancy gamer device.
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3y ago

zerr 3y ago

The name makes me remind Visual FoxPro.

daemonk 3y ago

None of the existing headsets I've tried has worked out in terms of working setup replacement. If it can replace a desk/monitor and lead to better ergonomics and flexibility, I would pay upwards of 5k for it. I really want Apple to succeed.

hbarka 3y ago

I can't wait for Apple's Wearable Macbook I mean the Vision Pro.

jmiskovic 3y ago

As a VR hobbyist dev I'm divided on how I feel about the device. Price thing is already well discussed, for me it's a tool worth investigating if I should invest time in the ecosystem. Without a doubt, the Vision Pro hardware is a marvel. Having the 3D capture camera in a consumer device would feel like living in the future. The headset design is top notch and seems comfortable. I do have slight worry about how these devices will look like after a year of use. The holographic eye reconstruction screen. A bit unsettling and strange design idea. We're messing around with people's eyes to make the headset friendlier? The frosted glass user interface is classy, aesthetically pleasing and very well put together. Lighting and soft shadow interaction with your environment is amazingly well done. I felt the UX the current user experience seems rather lackluster and limited to a 2D format. The first iPhone also had an old fashioned interface, so my guess is they are building the compatibility bridge for the first release. Maybe the next iteration would be actually spatial and not just panels floating in space? Moreover, the over-reliance on swipe and tap gestures is a point of concern. This design decision is focused on media consumption and limits the overall versatility of the interface. Feels like a very low-bandwidth control method. A significant drawback, for my use at least, is the lack of control over the hardware. Developers are restricted to building Unity applications within a sandboxed environment, which is a privacy feature intended to prevent apps from accessing the eye gaze point. Good idea, better than what Meta's doing. But too restrictive and frustrating for a developer wanting to run their apps on the bought device. Apple is once again marketing an expensive device-platform that caters mainly to larger corporations looking to offer their own 'immersive' experiences. Everything about this screams 'coorporate'. I would like to be proven wrong with some creative apps, but those will probably come through the web browser or streamed from Mac, and not as approved native apps running in gimped Unity engine. Nevertheless, the Vision Pro sets a new benchmark for future headsets. Maybe AR/VR is slowly entering the mainstream?

jimbokun 3y ago

> When I sat down to write this article I was having trouble context shifting back from WWDC mode and wished that I could have gone up to a virtual cabin in the woods, opened a text editor and written it there. Or similarly while I was watching WWDC session videos in my hotel room on my 13” MacBook Pro I found myself wishing for a larger display where I could have the video, notes, documentation and Xcode open all at once. This reinforces the idea that Vision Pro is for a portable, fully immersive work experience. Which dovetails nicely with the post-Covid notion of working in various locations as convenient/affordable. Bring a Vision Pro with you to "the cabin" or hotel or remote working location, to have a more productive experience than just a small laptop. Or college dorm, where you don't have your own dedicated work space.

mrguyorama 3y ago
Ah yes, because college kids have $3500 to burn on a novelty.
- jimbokun 3y ago
  Price will come down.

sergiotapia 3y ago

I still haven't read one single account of a developer actually using it to write code in VSCode/Vim/Emacs. I need to know if the screens looks crisp and are actually a good replacement for a screen for work. I don't mean "powerpoint/drawing" work. I mean wall of text, code work.

mellosouls 3y ago
I still haven't read one single account of a developer actually using it to write code in VSCode/Vim/Emacs That's because it hasn't been released yet. All the accounts you are reading are strictly controlled and time-limited demos.

Anonasty 3y ago

Someone said interestingly that with Vision Pro, Apple is giving solution to problem which does not exist.

ftxbro 3y ago

> "Starting on Day One" > "I have been a “day one” developer for three of Apple’s platforms" > "I’m going to be a “day one” developer for the Vision Pro." > "The Economics of “Day One”" > "Look for Widgetsmith for visionOS from “day one”." it looks like a guy who is flexing his "day one" access and using it to advertise some vaporware, and the rest of the words in the blogpost are some fluff maybe gpt could make it

armadsen 3y ago
It doesn't take much to get "day one" access like he's describing. I was some random kid with a couple years of (completely self-taught, solo, using free tools) Mac OS X dev experience in 2008, and I had beta access to the SDK and could have had an app out on day one if I had been more disciplined. Same goes for both the iPad and the Apple Watch. The SDKs for both were easily available before the devices shipped.
codemusings 3y ago
Salty much FTX Bro? This is David „underscore“ Smith, developer of Widgetsmith and a ton of other successful iOS apps. Genuinely one of the nicest human beings. If anyone has earned the rights to flex its him.
- ftxbro 3y ago
  > "Salty much FTX Bro?" FTX can still be profitable today if they allow SBF to raise funds. They just didn't understand his vision.

BananaaRepublik 3y ago

Btw, how do any of these work for people with glasses? My vision is too bad to survive without them and I'm sure half the city dwellers around me are too.

andrewmunsell 3y ago
You have to purchase (rumored to be expensive) magnetic clip-in prescription lenses, or use contacts. The device is too close to your face to fit glasses
- TillE 3y ago
  > (rumored to be expensive) Despite Gurman's personal speculation, Zeiss already makes prescription VR lenses for under $100: https://appleinsider.com/articles/23/06/07/vision-pro-prescription-lenses-to-start-at-300-guesses-gurman https://appleinsider.com/articles/23/06/07/vision-pro-prescr... I would pretty confidently bet on $99 for Apple, with an outside chance of $149.
- senttoschool 3y ago
  I'm 100% sure that a few months after launch, there will be other companies who will sell prescription magnetic lenses for cheap.

bilsbie 3y ago

We’re still constrained to 2d rectangles though. I wonder how we could code in three dimensions or make it feel more physical like wood working somehow. It’s all text based so I can’t really think of how you’d do it.

mercutio2 3y ago
What makes you think this? If you choose to use UIKit, yes, you get rectangles. But you are not constrained to UIKit.

zmmmmm 3y ago

> When I sat down to write this article I was having trouble context shifting back from WWDC mode and wished that I could have gone up to a virtual cabin in the woods, opened a text editor and written it there I do this all the time with the Quest Pro. It's resolution isn't quite there but in most other respects it enables the same type of transportation out of current context to somewhere else. Given you can get these now for 1/4 the cost of a Vision Pro, I think dev interested in Vision Pro should pick up a Quest Pro now and then you have both ecosystems to play with / compare and ultimately, if you are building something where it works, ship it on both.

mjsweet 3y ago

Just wondering, any chance that Vision Pro will support flash content?

brokenbyclouds 3y ago

It's going to mess up your hair, your makeup, add weight on your face, and collect face oil like a sponge. Take the keys off your keyboard and roll your face around in that.