18 ms·

GM to use Tesla charging network, joining Ford

175 points by kloch 3y ago

dheera 3y ago
Good. The CCS connector is hideous, sags under its own weight, and most CCS chargers just fail to start charging. Usually the car is expecting current when it is plugged in, and by the time you open up the app and figure out how to pay, the car has given up on the charger and won't charge when the charger is ready. Hopefully they can work it out so that all cars can just plug in and everything is negotiated for you without any apps.
- CameronNemo 3y ago
  Seriously preposterous that you need an app to charge. Nobody uses an app to charge at a gas station! Just tap your card and you're good. Why do they need my email so bad?
  - fnimick 3y ago
    Amusing that you're saying this when Tesla requires an app to set up your car for charging in the first place. Sure, you don't need an app at the point of sale, but I'd argue tying your car permanently to your identity is even worse. I'm also not sure where people have needed an app to charge. In my experience at both EVGo and Electrify America stations, the credit card readers work just fine. I've never made an account for either of them. ChargePoint is the exception, but their system is extra stupid (you need to use the app, then NFC your phone)
    - dheera 3y ago
      For me it's less about identity and more about just the damn charger working. I've never had an official Tesla charger fail to charge when plugged in. Their maintenance is top notch. The apps hardly work, and it doesn't help that I have to fiddle with a map and a list to find the charger I'm standing in front of by some name like "Agustin" or "Bashir", instead of just scanning a QR code or NFC tapping the physical plug which would have been a much better experience. ChargePoint works well; EVGo almost never works. EA usually works after unplugging and plugging and trying about 3-4 times.
    - toomuchtodo 3y ago
      You car is tied to your identity with your VIN and registration. These records are available to anyone willing to pay a nominal fee. If you rent, auto rental company has your drivers license on file. (caveat being if you register your car in Montana using an anonymous LLC with an agent)
    - CameronNemo 3y ago
      They seriously don't let you set up an account on their website? Ugh. I never said Tesla was better, though. I've mostly used chargepoint (and Volta, heh). I used evgo quite some time ago and thought they pushed you to use the app. My sister recently used an evgo for a rental car and she said she had to install an app.
      - flounder3 3y ago
        Chargepoint requires you to maintain an account balance, and requires auto-refills. You can't just bill a CC for the entirety of a session through the app/site. Sometimes you can initiate a non-linked session with an EMV tap from a physical card, but that doesn't always work.
    - vel0city 3y ago
      > Amusing that you're saying this when Tesla requires an app to set up your car for charging in the first place. Sounds terrible. I shouldn't need an app to drive my car.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - thmsths 3y ago
    Nobody uses an app at the gas station because that process was invented long before the smartphone craze and people have gotten used to it. I am pretty sure that if ICE cars were only coming to market now, the gas stations would ask you to use an app to fill up.
    - TheLoafOfBread 3y ago
      The same process which works for automated gas stations since 1990s works for chargers too. There is nothing new on that. And it is already being aggressively regulated into the infrastructure https://www.europapress.es/comunicados/internacional-00907/noticia-comunicado-card-payment-needs-to-be-possible-at-charging-stations-throughout-europe-20211130133227.html https://www.europapress.es/comunicados/internacional-00907/n...
  - dheera 3y ago
    Not to mention about half the chargers in my area (in California, of all places) don't take Visa cards, but they take some other credit card networks. Unfortunately all of my cards are Visa. So the app is the only option. But a lot of the time the app fails to start the charging. Perhaps the chargers have connectivity issues.
  - wmf 3y ago
    Many chargers don't require an app.
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      It depends. They might have a screen and can be used directly, but those screens are often broken, so app will still give you a better experience, at least at EA.
  - bdcravens 3y ago
    I've only used Electrify America chargers, but you can charge using just a credit/debit card. When I had my gas car, I often used an app at gas stations, primarily to avoid card skimmers. (Tap to pay isn't ubiquitous at the pump)
  - sorenjan 3y ago
    Hopefully this won't be needed soon and all cars and chargers will support Plug & Charge (ISO 15118)[0] after this annoying transition period. > The user-convenient and secure Plug & Charge feature that envisioned with ISO 15118 enables an electric vehicle to automatically identify and authorize itself to a compatible charging station on behalf of the driver, to receive energy for recharging its battery. The only action required by the driver is to plug the charging cable into the EV and/or charging station, because the car and the charger identify themselves to each other by exchanging certificates which were provided beforehand via a certificate pool to facilitate payment. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_15118 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_15118
    - castratikron 3y ago
      Just as soon as the PKI gets sorted out...
  - WorldMaker 3y ago
    According to current statistics most gas refills are done with some sort of rewards card in tandem (Kroger Rewards, Meijer Rewards, etc). To some perspectives, those are also "apps" of a sort that feed the station owners email addresses and other tracking things.
  - jdeibele 3y ago
    A couple of benefits to the apps: one is that you get exact information on the charging session. The bigger benefit is that some charging stations will stop charging once your battery is "full", wait a bit, then start charging an idle rate. The app can notify you about this or you can be texted or both since the station knows who you are. All EVs have a charging curve and typically the last 80% or 90% to full goes much more slowly than starting from 0% or 20%. In one case, ChargePoint decided that my Bolt EUV was charging too slowly and started charging me the idle rate without notifying me. Since the idle rate was $.25/minute, I ended up getting charged $1.50 or something like that. I didn't think the idle rate was unfair but I was literally waiting in a coffee shop for the car to get as charged as much as possible.
- matmatmatmat 3y ago
  I don't get the hate for the CCS connector? I use it multiple times a week, it works fine. Now and then I come across a charger that refuses to start, OK, the connector is worn. I suppose someone will come along and fix it. I have one in my garage; it does not sag under its own weight.
  - fnimick 3y ago
    > I have one in my garage; it does not sag under its own weight. I agree with you that the CCS connector is perfectly inoffensive, but you're probably thinking of J1772, unless you have a DC fast charging station at home!
    - matmatmatmat 3y ago
      Ah, you would be right, it appears I have a J1772 at home. I did not know that the CCS is a superset of the J1772 connector.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - dheera 3y ago
    > Now and then I come across a charger that refuses to start, OK, the connector is worn. Except this is about 50%+ of connectors in my area. Doesn't seem to happen to the Tesla connectors.
- pdabbadabba 3y ago
  I have no love for the CCS connector, but I've been exclusively driving a BEV with a CCS connector for more than a year and many of your complaints are completely foreign to me. > most CCS chargers just fail to start charging There's one charger in my neighborhood that is sometimes fiddly, but the vast majority of my charging experiences have been problem free. > Usually the car is expecting current when it is plugged in, and by the time you open up the app and figure out how to pay, the car has given up on the charger and won't charge when the charger is ready. I've never had anything like this experience. What charging network are you using? Electrify America chargers have credit card readers and don't require an app. EVGo chargers allow you to either use an app or tap an EVGo card. A bit annoying, I concede, but I have never had the timeout issue you describe. I'm also not sure what this complaint has to do with CCS. [Edit: Reading other comments, maybe EVGo chargers have CC readers too? Maybe I've just never noticed it because I have the EVGo payment card.] > The CCS connector is hideous No denying this one! >The CCS connector...sags under its own weight Not mine!
  - dheera 3y ago
    > What charging network are you using? Mostly EVGo. At my nearest EVGo station all 3 chargers don't work. 1 has its software eternally crashed, the other never starts charging and only accepts MasterCard (no Visa), and the app fails to start charging. The 3rd has a physically broken connector. There is no "call for help" button like elevators have, so I just go to a Tesla Supercharger instead.
  - bottlepalm 3y ago
    And if CCS worked as well for everyone as it does for you then they wouldn't be ditching it for NACS, but it doesn't so they are.
    - pdabbadabba 3y ago
      I guess my real point is that most of these issues primarily seem to be caused by the design of the charger and/or car, not the connector. For example, does the fact that some charging networks require you to use an app to pay really have anything to do with the connector? The fact that some cars apparently implement the charging protocol in a way that results in them timing out while the user is trying to activate the charger? That some charging stations just don't work? I'd bet that we'll start hearing all sorts of similar complaints about the NACS connector once people start using them on cars from a wider array of manufacturers with NACS-equipped EA/EVGo/ChargePoint (or similar) charging stations. To be clear, I'm open to the possibility that NACS might be better. But I don't think it will be a panacea for peoples' EV charging issues. The CCS connector has become a scapegoat for a lot of the quality issues with non-Tesla charging networks.
mperham 3y ago
I think most will agree that the CCS connector is godawful compared to Tesla's NACS. But why? Does anyone know why CCS was designed so poorly?
- api 3y ago
  CHAdeMO is pretty bad too. They’re both needlessly complex and chunky. My guess is that it’s the usual dynamic of industry consortia designing by a committee that heaps a massive number of requirements on the design that must all be met. That being said the FTC should require that Tesla open the connector spec if they are going to do this.
  - throwaway69123 3y ago
    https://techcrunch.com/2022/11/11/tesla-opens-its-ev-connector-design-to-other-automakers/amp/ https://techcrunch.com/2022/11/11/tesla-opens-its-ev-connect... No need
    - fnimick 3y ago
      That's not open. That much is clear when GM and Ford have to sign licensing agreements to add the connector to the car and get access to a NACS to CCS adapter, which won't work on vehicles from automakers that haven't signed that agreement. Not to mention that "open for others to use" is not the same as "developed by an independent trade association to remove undue influence from one company over the process", which is how it should be. Imagine Tesla can't figure out V2H, so they deliberately exclude it from the connector to hold back the rest of the industry that wants to move forward with it. Is that okay for you?
      - DoesntMatter22 3y ago
        "developed by an independent trade association to remove undue influence from one company over the process", which is how it should be." Why should it be that way? Tesla created the best charger and people want to use it. What's the problem? They've already opened all their patents. Objectively they are the most free and open car company in history.
fnimick 3y ago
This is absolutely awful for the industry. I hope the FTC steps in and either forces Tesla to truly open its connector (no requiring licensing fees / handing over development to an industry consortium) or kills these deals. I genuinely don't know why people are excited to replace an open standard with a proprietary one. Imagine if all USB development were hamstrung and required to go through an Apple approval process, and every device you bought had to pay the Apple tax for a lightning port? In addition, it seems that in the way the way the language is worded, Tesla's connector now qualifies for infrastructure subsidies because it can charge multiple makes of vehicles, even though it's limited to only those makes that have paid them the tax*. That's appalling. * this is made clear by their discussion of the Tesla to CCS adapters, which are vendor locked to only charge GM and Ford vehicles. Everyone with a different brand of car is left out. "Open standard"? I don't think so.
- guardiangod 3y ago
  What's awful about the deal? 1. Tesla already opened up the NACS connector for others to use. We don't know the detail yet but the license fee is probably minimal if Ford and GM agree to join. 2. the CSS1 connector is monstrous compare to NACS, with design deficiencies that are more or less not fixable. 3. Your USB example would be more like manufacturers sticking with Serial port (with manual configuration and payment done by the user) vs plug-and-play USB 1.0 (still a pain but it's a huge improvement.) 4. Tesla has a larger and better charging infrastructure than EA etc. What's wrong with giving infrastructure subsidies to companies who proved they have a superior product? Or do you think that everyone deserves a piece of the pie, regardless of their technical competency?
  - fnimick 3y ago
    > Tesla already opened up the NACS connector for others to use. We don't know the detail yet but the license fee is probably minimal if Ford and GM agree to join. Any licensing fee paid to a single company is unacceptable for what is described as an "open standard." > the CSS1 connector is monstrous compare to NACS Sure, it's bigger, but how is that a problem? It's not like you carry it with you. Nobody I know has ever had an issue physically working with it, including people 70+ years old. > Tesla has a larger and better charging infrastructure than EA etc. What's wrong with giving infrastructure subsidies to companies who proved they have a superior product? Or do you think that everyone deserves a piece of the pie, regardless of their technical competency? I have a big problem with companies getting infrastructure subsidies that they then use to rent-seek in the market and force other companies to pay them fees for access to publicly-funded infrastructure, yes. I'm not saying subsidies have to be given equally, but subsidies should absolutely not be given to companies that limit the product of that subsidy (charging) based on licensing for profit.
lvl102 3y ago
My understanding is that they were forced to open these standards and charging stations in order to get full credits for their cars. Is that wrong?
- fnimick 3y ago
  Unfortunately it seems so. There's no reason for the Tesla to CCS adapters to be vendor-locked to Ford and GM otherwise. If you want to use a Tesla charging station, and you own a vehicle from a company that hasn't paid up, you're SOL.
  - gwbas1c 3y ago
    Supercharger v4 contains both CCS and NACS connectors, and longer cables to adapt to different charge port locations on vehicles
- kjksf 3y ago
  Not really. The rule is: if government is subsidizing the chargers, it must be available to all cars. Which is more than fair. The current Tesla superchargers were fully funded by Tesla, so that requirement doesn't apply. If government gives Tesla money to build a supercharger then this (and ONLY this) supercharger needs to be available to every car. Which Tesla would do by adding CCS connector to those superchargers and provide an app where you, an owner of Ford or GM car, can create an account and charge using that CCS connector. That doesn't require Tesla to open the design of the connector. What GM and Ford is (probably) paying here is access to 12 thousand of superchargers that Tesla build and paid for and things like API access etc. so that they can implement seamless billing for charging in their apps (as Tesla does in Tesla app) or get real-time information about availability of chargers so that they can do route planning that takes into account location of superchargers.
  - lvl102 3y ago
    That makes sense. Thank you for the clarification.
RadixDLT 3y ago
smart move, they don't have to develop their own charging stations, but will tesla allow this?
- iamjake648 3y ago
  Did you read the article? They signed a deal directly with Tesla. They also never had to develop their own charging stations. Existing GM EVs can use any network that uses CCS already.
sorenjan 3y ago
I wonder how well this works with the proposed US-EU agreement on common charging ports? About a week ago EU and the US met for the EU-US Trade and Technology Council, where among other things they published this[0]: We also welcome the publication of EU-US joint technical recommendations for government-funded implementation of e-vehicle charging infrastructure which were developed in consultation with governments, industry, and grid-service stakeholders. This then links to a slightly more technical document[1], with more specific information: 1.) Adopt an agreed set of standards and regulations in technical requirements for public funding, while expanding transatlantic collaboration to identify and address priority gaps in standards for e-mobility infrastructure. The following could be implemented now, or is currently implemented by authorities: a) Require, as a minimum, use of pertinent IEC 61851 and IEC 62196-2/-3 standards for light- to medium-duty EV inlets and their EV-EVSE connectors, respecting the "Type 1"- and "Type 2"- form, as commonly used in the U.S. and the EU, respectively. I believe it is the IEC 62196 standard[2] that governs the connectors, and I don't see Tesla's connector in there. [0] https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/statement_23_2992 https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/statem... [1] https://joint-research-centre.ec.europa.eu/system/files/2023-05/Transatlantic_Technical_Recommendations_for_Government_Funded_Implementation_of_Electric_Vehicle_Charging_Infrastructure_0.pdf https://joint-research-centre.ec.europa.eu/system/files/2023... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_62196 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_62196
- kjksf 3y ago
  Tesla's supercharger network was funded by Tesla. Those are: a) recommendations, not rules b) for government-funded chargers Even if those were rules, not mere recommendations, they would not apply to this deal.
  - sorenjan 3y ago
    Yes, but shipping new cars with a different charging plug than new government funded chargers doesn't seem like a great idea. The industry should start converging to a common standard by now, and as far as I know not even Tesla is using their plug in the EU.
- 3y ago
zzzeek 3y ago
I remember being mocked here for lamenting that my Hyundai Ioniq 5 will be relegated to having to use some klunky adapter to charge where everyone else does, if even someone makes an adapter for Tesla / Hyundai that works. "Tesla is fitting CCS onto their superchargers! just like in Europe!" they told me. BS - Elon can sit back and let everyone come to him now, no way he does squat with CCS connectors here.
endisneigh 3y ago
This is an interesting example of why trying to regulate standards for an industry in its infancy might not go as planned
browningstreet 3y ago
The right tech won. Beta beat VHS, in this case.
- wilg 3y ago
  VHS was the right tech
  - pcchristie 3y ago
    Why?
    - worrycue 3y ago
      Technology Connections has a video on that, sort of: https://youtu.be/hGVVAQVdEOs https://youtu.be/hGVVAQVdEOs
      - Tagbert 3y ago
        But is the video VHS or Betamax? :)
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- gwbas1c 3y ago
  VHS was better, by a long shot. It won because the Betamax cassette was too small, severely limiting payback length. Feature films on Betamax used slower tape speeds compared to VHS; which meant that VHS typically had better picture quality. The mythical "better" Betamax was limited to about an hour of playback per tape. Technically Betamax could have a better picture, but in practice it didn't. (Again, because the smaller cassette meant that it used slower tape speeds compared to VHS.)
promocha 3y ago
This makes sense as Ford just adopted Tesla's NACS (North American Charging Standard) and GM would logically follow. We can now assume that the charging industry is disrupted by Tesla's NACS. Existing EV charging companies for ex. EVGO would need to upgrade all their chargers to adopt Tesla's connector. Currently none of the existing chargers, if it all, work with Teslas. The worst thing of this all Tesla would start selling chargers to networks and only moat existing charging companies have is the 10-15 years leases they have on charging sites. Another thing I haven't seen mentioned in comments is that CCS standard is owned by BMW and they charge $50 patent fee on each connection.
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  Tesla provides a J1772 adapter with each vehicle to use with existing level 2 charging stations with a J1772 plug. Purchased separately, they are $50. Selfishly, I am looking forward to no longer needing to carry this around when chargers all go NACS. https://shop.tesla.com/product/sae-j1772-charging-adapter https://shop.tesla.com/product/sae-j1772-charging-adapter
- clouddrover 3y ago
  > Currently none of the existing chargers, if it all, work with Teslas. They all work with Tesla models that support CCS. In North America it means buying a dumb adapter. In Europe everything is on CCS type 2 Combo so no adapter is needed and all brands of charger charge all brands of EV. None of the reports around these NACS deals talk about which protocol will be used. They may end up using the CCS protocol with Tesla's plug. Ultimately this is all the continued failure of North America to pick an EV charging standard. Incompatible infrastructure is a stupid outcome that's bad for everyone. It sounds like there's still years to go for North America to catch up to Europe.
  - gwbas1c 3y ago
    > Ultimately this is all the continued failure of North America to pick an EV charging standard. ... It sounds like there's still years to go for North America to catch up to Europe. Doubtful. I suspect that the US will standardize on NACS soon. Then Europe will be playing catch up because it has a bulky charger connector compared to the US and China.
Mizoguchi 3y ago
VW should be sued again by the US government for providing that garbage of Electrify America.
infecto 3y ago
I am curious how this will play out. This is great news for Tesla and probably good news for future Ford and GM EV owner. Bad news for all the CCS charge companies out there but honestly screw them. They are generally some of the worst experiences out there and maybe this forces them to actually be better. EA is genuinely one of the worst charging experiences I have ever had. The EA near my house is totally fine but while traveling it’s hit or miss. I tried using one last time because the Tesla supercharger had a 10min wait, I have an EA account, try to tap my account with my phone like always…does not work. Ok let me pay by credit card, it does not accept my main credit card so I use my backup, works. Charging starts then when my car gets to 60% it just stops, EA just stopped me. I try to restart the process and EA terminal says that I cannot charge anymore by credit card…What the heck. Just a terrible experience for something that should be so simple.
- inetknght 3y ago
  Imagine if gas stations could create a fuel subscription: we'll only fill your tank to 60% unless you pay $50/mo. If you subscribe now, your first month is free! Subscribers also get a $0.01 discount per gallon! Just imagine how that will go during an evacuation. It'll be advertised to go GREAT because fuel stations won't run out of gas!
  - frumper 3y ago
    They could do that. It's probably a terrible business model, but they are 100% free to do that. Edit: What they can't do is upcharge the price of gas during the evacuation. That's gouging. As a regular price though, it's fine.
- WorldMaker 3y ago
  GM joining the parade likely means that CCS chargers in North America will have to upgrade to NACS (or die). Luckily it sounds like it should be a relatively straightforward upgrade for some of them: NACS still speaks the CCS data standards so a lot of firmware mostly doesn't need to change. I think the only real exception is that NACS mandates the CCS "plug and charge" standard and CCS1 left it "optional" for some dumb reasons. That NACS requirement, if it is indeed a requirement, will do a ton to clean up the other charger networks: fewer apps, fewer terminal interactions, just plug the car in and let it securely speak the user's CC information in the handshake.
pfannkuchen 3y ago
What is the upside for Tesla here? Do they make much profit off of the charging network? I had assumed not.
- bearjaws 3y ago
  They charge up to 5x the rate of electricity at peak times, I have seen $.64/kwh at noon on a Saturday. That has to be some heavy margin for them.
  - pachouli-please 3y ago
    Understand too that fast electricity at peak times is pretty expensive. I don't think they have a significant margin on electricity, just the benefits of volume. And they certainly haven't been resting on their laurels. The entire supercharger network has doubled in recent years enabling more trips than ever. Back in 2018 you were counting on these individual stations which to their credit never let me down. Now as I plan yet another cross-country trip, there are dozens of superchargers that I skip past as in some areas they are only 20 miles apart. Great for the consumer imo.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]

175 points by kloch 3y ago

Good. The CCS connector is hideous, sags under its own weight, and most CCS chargers just fail to start charging. Usually the car is expecting current when it is plugged in, and by the time you open up the app and figure out how to pay, the car has given up on the charger and won't charge when the charger is ready. Hopefully they can work it out so that all cars can just plug in and everything is negotiated for you without any apps.

CameronNemo 3y ago
Seriously preposterous that you need an app to charge. Nobody uses an app to charge at a gas station! Just tap your card and you're good. Why do they need my email so bad?
- fnimick 3y ago
  Amusing that you're saying this when Tesla requires an app to set up your car for charging in the first place. Sure, you don't need an app at the point of sale, but I'd argue tying your car permanently to your identity is even worse. I'm also not sure where people have needed an app to charge. In my experience at both EVGo and Electrify America stations, the credit card readers work just fine. I've never made an account for either of them. ChargePoint is the exception, but their system is extra stupid (you need to use the app, then NFC your phone)
  - dheera 3y ago
    For me it's less about identity and more about just the damn charger working. I've never had an official Tesla charger fail to charge when plugged in. Their maintenance is top notch. The apps hardly work, and it doesn't help that I have to fiddle with a map and a list to find the charger I'm standing in front of by some name like "Agustin" or "Bashir", instead of just scanning a QR code or NFC tapping the physical plug which would have been a much better experience. ChargePoint works well; EVGo almost never works. EA usually works after unplugging and plugging and trying about 3-4 times.
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    You car is tied to your identity with your VIN and registration. These records are available to anyone willing to pay a nominal fee. If you rent, auto rental company has your drivers license on file. (caveat being if you register your car in Montana using an anonymous LLC with an agent)
  - CameronNemo 3y ago
    They seriously don't let you set up an account on their website? Ugh. I never said Tesla was better, though. I've mostly used chargepoint (and Volta, heh). I used evgo quite some time ago and thought they pushed you to use the app. My sister recently used an evgo for a rental car and she said she had to install an app.
    - flounder3 3y ago
      Chargepoint requires you to maintain an account balance, and requires auto-refills. You can't just bill a CC for the entirety of a session through the app/site. Sometimes you can initiate a non-linked session with an EMV tap from a physical card, but that doesn't always work.
  - vel0city 3y ago
    > Amusing that you're saying this when Tesla requires an app to set up your car for charging in the first place. Sounds terrible. I shouldn't need an app to drive my car.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- thmsths 3y ago
  Nobody uses an app at the gas station because that process was invented long before the smartphone craze and people have gotten used to it. I am pretty sure that if ICE cars were only coming to market now, the gas stations would ask you to use an app to fill up.
  - TheLoafOfBread 3y ago
    The same process which works for automated gas stations since 1990s works for chargers too. There is nothing new on that. And it is already being aggressively regulated into the infrastructure https://www.europapress.es/comunicados/internacional-00907/noticia-comunicado-card-payment-needs-to-be-possible-at-charging-stations-throughout-europe-20211130133227.html https://www.europapress.es/comunicados/internacional-00907/n...
- dheera 3y ago
  Not to mention about half the chargers in my area (in California, of all places) don't take Visa cards, but they take some other credit card networks. Unfortunately all of my cards are Visa. So the app is the only option. But a lot of the time the app fails to start the charging. Perhaps the chargers have connectivity issues.
- wmf 3y ago
  Many chargers don't require an app.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    It depends. They might have a screen and can be used directly, but those screens are often broken, so app will still give you a better experience, at least at EA.
- bdcravens 3y ago
  I've only used Electrify America chargers, but you can charge using just a credit/debit card. When I had my gas car, I often used an app at gas stations, primarily to avoid card skimmers. (Tap to pay isn't ubiquitous at the pump)
- sorenjan 3y ago
  Hopefully this won't be needed soon and all cars and chargers will support Plug & Charge (ISO 15118)[0] after this annoying transition period. > The user-convenient and secure Plug & Charge feature that envisioned with ISO 15118 enables an electric vehicle to automatically identify and authorize itself to a compatible charging station on behalf of the driver, to receive energy for recharging its battery. The only action required by the driver is to plug the charging cable into the EV and/or charging station, because the car and the charger identify themselves to each other by exchanging certificates which were provided beforehand via a certificate pool to facilitate payment. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_15118 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_15118
  - castratikron 3y ago
    Just as soon as the PKI gets sorted out...
- WorldMaker 3y ago
  According to current statistics most gas refills are done with some sort of rewards card in tandem (Kroger Rewards, Meijer Rewards, etc). To some perspectives, those are also "apps" of a sort that feed the station owners email addresses and other tracking things.
- jdeibele 3y ago
  A couple of benefits to the apps: one is that you get exact information on the charging session. The bigger benefit is that some charging stations will stop charging once your battery is "full", wait a bit, then start charging an idle rate. The app can notify you about this or you can be texted or both since the station knows who you are. All EVs have a charging curve and typically the last 80% or 90% to full goes much more slowly than starting from 0% or 20%. In one case, ChargePoint decided that my Bolt EUV was charging too slowly and started charging me the idle rate without notifying me. Since the idle rate was $.25/minute, I ended up getting charged $1.50 or something like that. I didn't think the idle rate was unfair but I was literally waiting in a coffee shop for the car to get as charged as much as possible.
matmatmatmat 3y ago
I don't get the hate for the CCS connector? I use it multiple times a week, it works fine. Now and then I come across a charger that refuses to start, OK, the connector is worn. I suppose someone will come along and fix it. I have one in my garage; it does not sag under its own weight.
- fnimick 3y ago
  > I have one in my garage; it does not sag under its own weight. I agree with you that the CCS connector is perfectly inoffensive, but you're probably thinking of J1772, unless you have a DC fast charging station at home!
  - matmatmatmat 3y ago
    Ah, you would be right, it appears I have a J1772 at home. I did not know that the CCS is a superset of the J1772 connector.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- dheera 3y ago
  > Now and then I come across a charger that refuses to start, OK, the connector is worn. Except this is about 50%+ of connectors in my area. Doesn't seem to happen to the Tesla connectors.
pdabbadabba 3y ago
I have no love for the CCS connector, but I've been exclusively driving a BEV with a CCS connector for more than a year and many of your complaints are completely foreign to me. > most CCS chargers just fail to start charging There's one charger in my neighborhood that is sometimes fiddly, but the vast majority of my charging experiences have been problem free. > Usually the car is expecting current when it is plugged in, and by the time you open up the app and figure out how to pay, the car has given up on the charger and won't charge when the charger is ready. I've never had anything like this experience. What charging network are you using? Electrify America chargers have credit card readers and don't require an app. EVGo chargers allow you to either use an app or tap an EVGo card. A bit annoying, I concede, but I have never had the timeout issue you describe. I'm also not sure what this complaint has to do with CCS. [Edit: Reading other comments, maybe EVGo chargers have CC readers too? Maybe I've just never noticed it because I have the EVGo payment card.] > The CCS connector is hideous No denying this one! >The CCS connector...sags under its own weight Not mine!
- dheera 3y ago
  > What charging network are you using? Mostly EVGo. At my nearest EVGo station all 3 chargers don't work. 1 has its software eternally crashed, the other never starts charging and only accepts MasterCard (no Visa), and the app fails to start charging. The 3rd has a physically broken connector. There is no "call for help" button like elevators have, so I just go to a Tesla Supercharger instead.
- bottlepalm 3y ago
  And if CCS worked as well for everyone as it does for you then they wouldn't be ditching it for NACS, but it doesn't so they are.
  - pdabbadabba 3y ago
    I guess my real point is that most of these issues primarily seem to be caused by the design of the charger and/or car, not the connector. For example, does the fact that some charging networks require you to use an app to pay really have anything to do with the connector? The fact that some cars apparently implement the charging protocol in a way that results in them timing out while the user is trying to activate the charger? That some charging stations just don't work? I'd bet that we'll start hearing all sorts of similar complaints about the NACS connector once people start using them on cars from a wider array of manufacturers with NACS-equipped EA/EVGo/ChargePoint (or similar) charging stations. To be clear, I'm open to the possibility that NACS might be better. But I don't think it will be a panacea for peoples' EV charging issues. The CCS connector has become a scapegoat for a lot of the quality issues with non-Tesla charging networks.

mperham 3y ago

I think most will agree that the CCS connector is godawful compared to Tesla's NACS. But why? Does anyone know why CCS was designed so poorly?

api 3y ago
CHAdeMO is pretty bad too. They’re both needlessly complex and chunky. My guess is that it’s the usual dynamic of industry consortia designing by a committee that heaps a massive number of requirements on the design that must all be met. That being said the FTC should require that Tesla open the connector spec if they are going to do this.
- throwaway69123 3y ago
  https://techcrunch.com/2022/11/11/tesla-opens-its-ev-connector-design-to-other-automakers/amp/ https://techcrunch.com/2022/11/11/tesla-opens-its-ev-connect... No need
  - fnimick 3y ago
    That's not open. That much is clear when GM and Ford have to sign licensing agreements to add the connector to the car and get access to a NACS to CCS adapter, which won't work on vehicles from automakers that haven't signed that agreement. Not to mention that "open for others to use" is not the same as "developed by an independent trade association to remove undue influence from one company over the process", which is how it should be. Imagine Tesla can't figure out V2H, so they deliberately exclude it from the connector to hold back the rest of the industry that wants to move forward with it. Is that okay for you?
    - DoesntMatter22 3y ago
      "developed by an independent trade association to remove undue influence from one company over the process", which is how it should be." Why should it be that way? Tesla created the best charger and people want to use it. What's the problem? They've already opened all their patents. Objectively they are the most free and open car company in history.

fnimick 3y ago

This is absolutely awful for the industry. I hope the FTC steps in and either forces Tesla to truly open its connector (no requiring licensing fees / handing over development to an industry consortium) or kills these deals. I genuinely don't know why people are excited to replace an open standard with a proprietary one. Imagine if all USB development were hamstrung and required to go through an Apple approval process, and every device you bought had to pay the Apple tax for a lightning port? In addition, it seems that in the way the way the language is worded, Tesla's connector now qualifies for infrastructure subsidies because it can charge multiple makes of vehicles, even though it's limited to only those makes that have paid them the tax*. That's appalling. * this is made clear by their discussion of the Tesla to CCS adapters, which are vendor locked to only charge GM and Ford vehicles. Everyone with a different brand of car is left out. "Open standard"? I don't think so.

guardiangod 3y ago
What's awful about the deal? 1. Tesla already opened up the NACS connector for others to use. We don't know the detail yet but the license fee is probably minimal if Ford and GM agree to join. 2. the CSS1 connector is monstrous compare to NACS, with design deficiencies that are more or less not fixable. 3. Your USB example would be more like manufacturers sticking with Serial port (with manual configuration and payment done by the user) vs plug-and-play USB 1.0 (still a pain but it's a huge improvement.) 4. Tesla has a larger and better charging infrastructure than EA etc. What's wrong with giving infrastructure subsidies to companies who proved they have a superior product? Or do you think that everyone deserves a piece of the pie, regardless of their technical competency?
- fnimick 3y ago
  > Tesla already opened up the NACS connector for others to use. We don't know the detail yet but the license fee is probably minimal if Ford and GM agree to join. Any licensing fee paid to a single company is unacceptable for what is described as an "open standard." > the CSS1 connector is monstrous compare to NACS Sure, it's bigger, but how is that a problem? It's not like you carry it with you. Nobody I know has ever had an issue physically working with it, including people 70+ years old. > Tesla has a larger and better charging infrastructure than EA etc. What's wrong with giving infrastructure subsidies to companies who proved they have a superior product? Or do you think that everyone deserves a piece of the pie, regardless of their technical competency? I have a big problem with companies getting infrastructure subsidies that they then use to rent-seek in the market and force other companies to pay them fees for access to publicly-funded infrastructure, yes. I'm not saying subsidies have to be given equally, but subsidies should absolutely not be given to companies that limit the product of that subsidy (charging) based on licensing for profit.

lvl102 3y ago

My understanding is that they were forced to open these standards and charging stations in order to get full credits for their cars. Is that wrong?

fnimick 3y ago
Unfortunately it seems so. There's no reason for the Tesla to CCS adapters to be vendor-locked to Ford and GM otherwise. If you want to use a Tesla charging station, and you own a vehicle from a company that hasn't paid up, you're SOL.
- gwbas1c 3y ago
  Supercharger v4 contains both CCS and NACS connectors, and longer cables to adapt to different charge port locations on vehicles
kjksf 3y ago
Not really. The rule is: if government is subsidizing the chargers, it must be available to all cars. Which is more than fair. The current Tesla superchargers were fully funded by Tesla, so that requirement doesn't apply. If government gives Tesla money to build a supercharger then this (and ONLY this) supercharger needs to be available to every car. Which Tesla would do by adding CCS connector to those superchargers and provide an app where you, an owner of Ford or GM car, can create an account and charge using that CCS connector. That doesn't require Tesla to open the design of the connector. What GM and Ford is (probably) paying here is access to 12 thousand of superchargers that Tesla build and paid for and things like API access etc. so that they can implement seamless billing for charging in their apps (as Tesla does in Tesla app) or get real-time information about availability of chargers so that they can do route planning that takes into account location of superchargers.
- lvl102 3y ago
  That makes sense. Thank you for the clarification.

RadixDLT 3y ago

smart move, they don't have to develop their own charging stations, but will tesla allow this?

iamjake648 3y ago
Did you read the article? They signed a deal directly with Tesla. They also never had to develop their own charging stations. Existing GM EVs can use any network that uses CCS already.

sorenjan 3y ago

I wonder how well this works with the proposed US-EU agreement on common charging ports? About a week ago EU and the US met for the EU-US Trade and Technology Council, where among other things they published this[0]: We also welcome the publication of EU-US joint technical recommendations for government-funded implementation of e-vehicle charging infrastructure which were developed in consultation with governments, industry, and grid-service stakeholders. This then links to a slightly more technical document[1], with more specific information: 1.) Adopt an agreed set of standards and regulations in technical requirements for public funding, while expanding transatlantic collaboration to identify and address priority gaps in standards for e-mobility infrastructure. The following could be implemented now, or is currently implemented by authorities: a) Require, as a minimum, use of pertinent IEC 61851 and IEC 62196-2/-3 standards for light- to medium-duty EV inlets and their EV-EVSE connectors, respecting the "Type 1"- and "Type 2"- form, as commonly used in the U.S. and the EU, respectively. I believe it is the IEC 62196 standard[2] that governs the connectors, and I don't see Tesla's connector in there. [0] https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/statement_23_2992 https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/statem... [1] https://joint-research-centre.ec.europa.eu/system/files/2023-05/Transatlantic_Technical_Recommendations_for_Government_Funded_Implementation_of_Electric_Vehicle_Charging_Infrastructure_0.pdf https://joint-research-centre.ec.europa.eu/system/files/2023... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_62196 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEC_62196

kjksf 3y ago
Tesla's supercharger network was funded by Tesla. Those are: a) recommendations, not rules b) for government-funded chargers Even if those were rules, not mere recommendations, they would not apply to this deal.
- sorenjan 3y ago
  Yes, but shipping new cars with a different charging plug than new government funded chargers doesn't seem like a great idea. The industry should start converging to a common standard by now, and as far as I know not even Tesla is using their plug in the EU.
3y ago

zzzeek 3y ago

I remember being mocked here for lamenting that my Hyundai Ioniq 5 will be relegated to having to use some klunky adapter to charge where everyone else does, if even someone makes an adapter for Tesla / Hyundai that works. "Tesla is fitting CCS onto their superchargers! just like in Europe!" they told me. BS - Elon can sit back and let everyone come to him now, no way he does squat with CCS connectors here.

endisneigh 3y ago

This is an interesting example of why trying to regulate standards for an industry in its infancy might not go as planned

browningstreet 3y ago

The right tech won. Beta beat VHS, in this case.

wilg 3y ago
VHS was the right tech
- pcchristie 3y ago
  Why?
  - worrycue 3y ago
    Technology Connections has a video on that, sort of: https://youtu.be/hGVVAQVdEOs https://youtu.be/hGVVAQVdEOs
    - Tagbert 3y ago
      But is the video VHS or Betamax? :)
deleted 3y ago
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gwbas1c 3y ago
VHS was better, by a long shot. It won because the Betamax cassette was too small, severely limiting payback length. Feature films on Betamax used slower tape speeds compared to VHS; which meant that VHS typically had better picture quality. The mythical "better" Betamax was limited to about an hour of playback per tape. Technically Betamax could have a better picture, but in practice it didn't. (Again, because the smaller cassette meant that it used slower tape speeds compared to VHS.)

promocha 3y ago

This makes sense as Ford just adopted Tesla's NACS (North American Charging Standard) and GM would logically follow. We can now assume that the charging industry is disrupted by Tesla's NACS. Existing EV charging companies for ex. EVGO would need to upgrade all their chargers to adopt Tesla's connector. Currently none of the existing chargers, if it all, work with Teslas. The worst thing of this all Tesla would start selling chargers to networks and only moat existing charging companies have is the 10-15 years leases they have on charging sites. Another thing I haven't seen mentioned in comments is that CCS standard is owned by BMW and they charge $50 patent fee on each connection.

toomuchtodo 3y ago
Tesla provides a J1772 adapter with each vehicle to use with existing level 2 charging stations with a J1772 plug. Purchased separately, they are $50. Selfishly, I am looking forward to no longer needing to carry this around when chargers all go NACS. https://shop.tesla.com/product/sae-j1772-charging-adapter https://shop.tesla.com/product/sae-j1772-charging-adapter
clouddrover 3y ago
> Currently none of the existing chargers, if it all, work with Teslas. They all work with Tesla models that support CCS. In North America it means buying a dumb adapter. In Europe everything is on CCS type 2 Combo so no adapter is needed and all brands of charger charge all brands of EV. None of the reports around these NACS deals talk about which protocol will be used. They may end up using the CCS protocol with Tesla's plug. Ultimately this is all the continued failure of North America to pick an EV charging standard. Incompatible infrastructure is a stupid outcome that's bad for everyone. It sounds like there's still years to go for North America to catch up to Europe.
- gwbas1c 3y ago
  > Ultimately this is all the continued failure of North America to pick an EV charging standard. ... It sounds like there's still years to go for North America to catch up to Europe. Doubtful. I suspect that the US will standardize on NACS soon. Then Europe will be playing catch up because it has a bulky charger connector compared to the US and China.

Mizoguchi 3y ago

VW should be sued again by the US government for providing that garbage of Electrify America.

infecto 3y ago

I am curious how this will play out. This is great news for Tesla and probably good news for future Ford and GM EV owner. Bad news for all the CCS charge companies out there but honestly screw them. They are generally some of the worst experiences out there and maybe this forces them to actually be better. EA is genuinely one of the worst charging experiences I have ever had. The EA near my house is totally fine but while traveling it’s hit or miss. I tried using one last time because the Tesla supercharger had a 10min wait, I have an EA account, try to tap my account with my phone like always…does not work. Ok let me pay by credit card, it does not accept my main credit card so I use my backup, works. Charging starts then when my car gets to 60% it just stops, EA just stopped me. I try to restart the process and EA terminal says that I cannot charge anymore by credit card…What the heck. Just a terrible experience for something that should be so simple.

inetknght 3y ago
Imagine if gas stations could create a fuel subscription: we'll only fill your tank to 60% unless you pay $50/mo. If you subscribe now, your first month is free! Subscribers also get a $0.01 discount per gallon! Just imagine how that will go during an evacuation. It'll be advertised to go GREAT because fuel stations won't run out of gas!
- frumper 3y ago
  They could do that. It's probably a terrible business model, but they are 100% free to do that. Edit: What they can't do is upcharge the price of gas during the evacuation. That's gouging. As a regular price though, it's fine.
WorldMaker 3y ago
GM joining the parade likely means that CCS chargers in North America will have to upgrade to NACS (or die). Luckily it sounds like it should be a relatively straightforward upgrade for some of them: NACS still speaks the CCS data standards so a lot of firmware mostly doesn't need to change. I think the only real exception is that NACS mandates the CCS "plug and charge" standard and CCS1 left it "optional" for some dumb reasons. That NACS requirement, if it is indeed a requirement, will do a ton to clean up the other charger networks: fewer apps, fewer terminal interactions, just plug the car in and let it securely speak the user's CC information in the handshake.

pfannkuchen 3y ago

What is the upside for Tesla here? Do they make much profit off of the charging network? I had assumed not.

bearjaws 3y ago
They charge up to 5x the rate of electricity at peak times, I have seen $.64/kwh at noon on a Saturday. That has to be some heavy margin for them.
- pachouli-please 3y ago
  Understand too that fast electricity at peak times is pretty expensive. I don't think they have a significant margin on electricity, just the benefits of volume. And they certainly haven't been resting on their laurels. The entire supercharger network has doubled in recent years enabling more trips than ever. Back in 2018 you were counting on these individual stations which to their credit never let me down. Now as I plan yet another cross-country trip, there are dozens of superchargers that I skip past as in some areas they are only 20 miles apart. Great for the consumer imo.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]