18 ms·

Why the Dvorak keyboard didn't take over the world (2014) [video]

117 points by sbuttgereit 3y ago

ZeroGravitas 3y ago
I like this guys content generally, but it's worth noting in this instance he's unknowingly echo-ing free-market libertarian dogma. > You might hear comments from time to time about studies showing Dvorak is "no better than QWERTY," or words to that effect. All such comments that I've heard seem to echo an article, "The Fable of the Keys," by S. J. Liebowitz and Stephen E. Margolis, published in the Journal of Law & Economics, vol. XXXIII (April 1990). > Note the word "economics." Liebowitz and Margolis are economists opposed to an "excessive inertia" theory, for which QWERTY is often cited as an example. Rather than try to prove their point with a generally valid argument, they simply attack Dvorak as a dubious replacement for QWERTY. As the article's last footnote explains, there are a number of other possible reasons for Dvorak's failure to replace QWERTY, besides a perceived lack of value. The article ignores those reasons, however, and perpetrates that false perception in a nicely self-fulfilling way. https://web.archive.org/web/20050204023432/http://www.mwbrooks.com/dvorak/dissent.html https://web.archive.org/web/20050204023432/http://www.mwbroo...
- bediger4000 3y ago
  I haven't looked in a few years, but "The Fable of the Keys" was not available on the web. I had to slip into CU's library to find it on microfiche. Unimpressive paper, no original research, just pot shots at old Navy and Dvorak experiments. Economists call "excessive inertia" "path dependence".
- causi 3y ago
  What makes that libertarian dogma?
  - lern_too_spel 3y ago
    Path dependence is a kind of market failure. Libertarians like to pretend that market failure does not exist in free markets because market failure implies market intervention. The authors of "The Fable of the Keys" have frequently argued against the existence of path dependence. https://eh.net/encyclopedia/path-dependence/ https://eh.net/encyclopedia/path-dependence/
throwawaymaths 3y ago
As a dvorak user: in a way that's kinda great that dvorak didn't make it. It's terrible for mobile.
- grog454 3y ago
  I use Dvorak for keyboards and qwerty for thumbs. Keeps them both in muscle memory to some extent, so it's not too painful when I'm using someone else's keyboard.
  - xhevahir 3y ago
    Me, too. I tried using Dvorak on the phone once I saw it was available but soon realized that my Dvorak skill was entirely muscle memory and that I had no visual sense of the layout. QWERTY (plus "glide" or "swipe" typing) works fine for that purpose, for me.
    - throwawaymaths 3y ago
      The vowel collisions is what makes dvorak nearly unusable
  - codemac 3y ago
    Ditto! It's actually good for thumbs because your thumbs can't get all crumbled on top of eachother. Same for swipe typing - the further distances makes it easier to pick up on different words.
- ascagnel_ 3y ago
  I can kind of see that: by moving all the frequently-used letters to the edges and mostly away from each other (and keeping frequent letter pairs further apart), it probably makes interpreting taps between letters and things like swipe keyboards easier to execute.
  - throwawaymaths 3y ago
    Specifically the vowels. Lots of words have levenstein distance one vowel in many langs (yes I'm aware many langs don't use qwerty but most are ~)
aaron_m04 3y ago
One YouTube comment echoed my experience with Dvorak: > Often overlooked is that the main reason for switching to dvorak isn't speed for most users. The dvorak layout is layed out for minimal movement while maintaining a roughly even split between hands. This reduces strain on a typists hands and helps a great deal with comfort when typing for longer periods of time. I may not type faster than if I had stuck with qwerty, but I definitely don't have the wrist problems I keep hearing coworkers complain about.
- irjustin 3y ago
  Split keyboards is my recommendation
  - grog454 3y ago
    Split keyboards can help with wrist positioning but not finger travel, both of which can contribute to wrist problems.
    - lawn 3y ago
      That's why you should also choose a small keyboard, like one with 34 keys or similar.
      - rgoulter 3y ago
        For typing alphabetical characters, I'd expect a more significant impact from "adopt Dvorak instead of QWERTY" over "adopt a smaller keyboard". For reducing strain to access keys like shift/backspace/escape/tab, I think that's where "use keyboard with multiple thumbkeys" would have a benefit, yeah.
      - GoldenRacer 3y ago
        What type of layout do you use for 34 keys? I've got a 42 key split board so I'm not a total noob to minimalist keyboard but struggle to see how 34 keys can be used effectively.
api_or_ipa 3y ago
As a dvorak user, whatever increase in typing speed is mostly irrelevant, for most of us, our output isn't limited by how fast we can type, but how fast we can think. That being said, a long time ago I took an analysis of one of our code bases, mapped every character onto dvorak and qwerty keyboards to produce heatmaps, and it's startling how much less the fingers have to move on a dvorak keyboard. So if you're lazy, dvorak might be something to consider. Overall, I've been using dvorak for >10 years and I like it. Going back to Qwerty is like going back to sleeping on a twin mattress. It gets the job done, but once you've become accustomed to sleeping on a queen, it's hard to justify going back to a twin.
- TylerE 3y ago
  The issue I have with Dvorak is that it pushes many common programmer keys, like [], <>, and ; waaaay out to very unergonomic locations.
  - Symbiote 3y ago
    ,.<> are slightly more convenient than on Qwerty, ;: is obviously worse but hardly "way out" (it's where Z is on Qwerty). []{} are indeed further out, but instead we have -_=+ closer. Once we add in all the English I type, file-names, U_R_L?s, --command --flags, /directories/, I think, if anything, the rearrangement is an advantage.
- Apofis 3y ago
  Using QUERTY after colemak is like being retarded, so after trying alternate keyboard layouts for a while, I'm just doing a hardpass on anything not QUERTY until we get rid of keyboards entirely.
- moi2388 3y ago
  I just don’t understand that metric or why Dvorak people keep using it. Yes my fingers might travel less, but do we know that moving your hands less leads to a reduction in pain and injury? I’d argue having them constantly in the same position might also do that. And what about comfort? My index finger is stronger than my pinky; id much rather move further with my index finger than my pinky..
Avlin67 3y ago
You dont need to type fast to be productive imho
- 2023throwawayy 3y ago
  For me, using DVORAK has nothing to do with speed, and everything to do with comfort. It's simply easier to use and results in less hand and wrist strain.
- crimsontech 3y ago
  Really depends on what your job is.
mightyham 3y ago
I taught myself dvorak for fun in high school have used it everyday for close to a decade now. It certainly never made me a faster typer, but what I don't hear a lot of people point out is that it is simply a more pleasant experience. Whenever I switch back to qwerty (I can still touch type in both), I become instantly contingent that my hands are having to move more erratically over the surface of my keyboard to type any given word or sentence. Also a couple small things about the layout that really like are that the underscore key is much easier to reach and the period and comma keys are on the top row which makes writing long numbers with decimals and commas nicer.
warp 3y ago
With the rise of (split) mechanical keyboards as a hobby in its own right (with open source keyboard firmware like QMK and ZMK) it is much easier to make small tweaks to your layout as you find things which annoy you, so there seems to be a lot of experimentation going on right now with alternative layouts. I feel like I'm one of the last generation of Dvorak typers, anyone who cares about typing ergonomics learning about alternate layouts is probably both better off and more likely to try e.g. colemak, or something newer or maybe even design their own.
- jupp0r 3y ago
  I think there is immense value to being able to walk up to any computer, change the keyboard setting and being productive.
  - WorldMaker 3y ago
    It's my lone complaint with Colemak is that Windows still doesn't include it out-of-the-box and needs it to be admin-installed from an MSI bundle that needs to be downloaded (or copied from a thumb drive). Every other modern OS includes it today (including iOS).
    - toyg 3y ago
      I agree. At least they made it trivial to switch layout even on the login screen, with win+spacebar.
    - jupp0r 3y ago
      That's the exact reason why I chose Dvorak over Colemak a decade or so ago. Sad to see that this hasn't been fixed yet.
nfriend 3y ago
Anecdotally, I gave Dvorak a try and became somewhat proficient, but ultimately reverted back to QWERTY for one reason: keyboard shortcuts! Control-C|V|Z are all transformed into either two-handed shortcuts or right-handed shortcuts. In either case, I can't copy/paste while selecting text with the mouse (since I'm right-handed). I now use Colemak (https://colemak.com/ https://colemak.com/) which doesn't have this issue and I'm quite happy with!
- beeforpork 3y ago
  For Emacs controls, I found that Dvorak is not much of a problem after remapping it a tiny bit: (keyboard-translate ?\C-c ?\C-n) (keyboard-translate ?\C-h ?\C-c)
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - codemac 3y ago
    I ended up with the following[0] (keyboard-translate ?\C-x ?\C-t) (keyboard-translate ?\C-t ?\C-x) Along with a quick function to make sure I don't forget :) (global-set-key (kbd "C-t") (lambda () (interactive) (run-with-timer 0.3 nil (lambda () ;; Assuming these are the default values (setq visible-bell nil) (setq ring-bell-function 'ignore))) (setq visible-bell t) (setq ring-bell-function nil) (error "Don't press that button."))) [0]: https://github.com/codemac/config/blob/master/emacs.d/boot.org#dvorak https://github.com/codemac/config/blob/master/emacs.d/boot.o...
- carabiner 3y ago
  On Mac, you have the "Dvorak - QWERTY ⌘" layout which retains QWERTY shortcuts.
  - danpalmer 3y ago
    I used to love this, eventually just took the plunge and learnt the shortcuts though and I'm more productive because I can use non-Mac Dvorak layouts.
theonemind 3y ago
I use Dvorak. When typing on QWERTY, I feel like I'm playing a secretary in a 1950s movie trying to ham up the notion that I'm really typing something here, because it feels my fingers have to fly around everywhere in an exaggerated and ostentatious manner. If you have typing speed less than 50 WPM, you'll probably type faster by switching to Dvorak. If you type faster than that before switching, your typing speed will go down and not fully recover automatically unless you train it back up. I lost some speed that I never recovered. It wasn't worth the effort because I can still type fast enough. A lot of people get hung up on the keybindings thing. zxcv for CUA cut-copy-paste make a nice little row on QWERTY, and hjkl for vi type movements, but as it turns out, it really doesn't matter. Those help you learn when muscle memory doesn't translate into intention without thinking. Once you learn them by muscle memory, it doesn't matter where the keys are. I just use programs with QWERTY shortcuts and press the key on Dvorak wherever it happens to land on the layout, and it works perfectly fine. I can still touch type QWERTY, but quite a bit slower than Dvorak.
- uticus 3y ago
  > ...vi type movements... Can attest vi movements can be learned on Dvorak. But have to admit it is not quite as nice, those movements were designed for qwerty. Of course "j" and "k" are next to each other on Dvorak. "h" and "l" are also positioned at first and fourth fingers like qwerty... but on different rows and on different hand than "j/k". Which means Dvorak requires two-handed vi movements. Maybe not a big deal, vi shortcuts mean moving all over the keyboard anyway. Just not quite as nice.
gorjusborg 3y ago
I tried and considered switching to dvorak as my main keyboard layout. I didn't stay with it because of two things: 1. The fact I'd have to keep both in my muscle-memory due to swapping onto other people's machines 2. Vim keybindings
- cxr 3y ago
  Vim is perfectly usable with Dvorak.
  - gorjusborg 3y ago
    Could you elaborate? My experience was that vim keybindings are tied to characters, not key codes (position). Insert is 'i', not the key at position of 'i' in QUERTY. Maybe I was doing it wrong, but Vim, for me, is all about the interface and muscle memory. Having keys move position due to the different keyboard layout was a deal-breaker.
    - rgoulter 3y ago
      e.g. I recall that blogpost titled "ZZ vs zz". I use both of these on both QWERTY and Dvorak frequently enough; although tbh I had to actually try typing 'zz' to recall what it did. My suspicion is that when I picked up using Dvorak with Vim, whatever association or motor-memory goes on gets some indirection added, so that 'letter and position' are not quite so tightly coupled.
- rgoulter 3y ago
  > Vim keybindings Dvorak's actually pretty good for vim keybindings. While 'hjkl' is positionally significant; Dvorak 'jk' are still adjacent and easy to reach in Dvorak, and 'h' is still to the left of 'l' on the same hand. Other keybindings are better remembered by the letter itself rather than by the position on the keyboard (e.g. "di'" or "gg"), so these aren't that much of an issue.
  - gorjusborg 3y ago
Faaak 3y ago
Switched to dvorak ~10 years ago. The first 2 months were terrible: it took me 40 minutes to write a simple e-mail (no must not write the keys on the keyboard, but have a cheat sheet next to you to train your "muscle memory"). After some time though, in my case around a year, you start reaching your previous speed (in my case qwerty). I didn't gain speed but I gained a lot of muscular comfort. Indeed, you frequently do some weird gestures typing on a qwerty due to the dispositions of the keys. It's much rarer on dvorak and I'm really glad for that.
WillAdams 3y ago
When I was in the Air Force and had to take a typing class (on IBM Selectrics w/ blank keycaps), they had a couple set aside with Dvorak keyboard layouts --- everyone was offered the chance to "type out" on the first day, by typing 50 WPM or faster after adjusting for errors (I did 65). The instructor noted that while folks often failed when testing on QWERTY, that he had never seen a formally trained Dvorak keyboard typist fail to type out, and that most were well above the average QWERTY speed.
bhahn 3y ago
I was exclusively using Dvorak on my home and work machines for 8 years, but switched back to QWERTY about 5 years ago. I loved the feel of Dvorak -- subjectively more comfortable -- but minor annoyances added up. 1. I didn't practice QWERTY, so when I used someone else's computer, it was always an exercise in re-jogging my memory 2. Having to use one hand/finger to type (don't ask me why :)) on DVORAK was super slow because I had to map manually each key in my brain because I couldn't rely on the letters on the physical key caps Ultimately I also wasn't typing that much, even as a programmer, so it didn't make a huge difference for me, but I do miss it sometimes.
registeredcorn 3y ago
I had used a Dvorak layout for a few years and loved it. Ultimately, I switched back to Qwerty for a few fairly practical reasons: 1) Every video game I've ever played has had key bindings with Qwerty (or a controller) in mind. I would estimate that roughly 60%-ish of those games permit for some level of keyboard remapping. When remapping is possible, there will be bewildering exceptions for certain actions. When it's not possible, they are impossible to play. Yes, I am aware you can switch between different layouts through the OS easily enough, but after I had gotten used to a letter being in a specific spot for Dvorak, and then being prompted to press it in a Qwerty layout, I found myself mis-typing extremely frequently for button prompts. It also became a chore to switch between them if I was in the middle of playing, then wanted type out a quick message in instant messenger. 2) Random bugs. I had noticed that for whatever reason, some programs just seemed to have some kind of issue with Dvorak layouts. I can't think of any specifics, it's been at least a decade since then, but it was something bizarre like: program recognizes that I was using a Dvorak layout except if I was using a keyboard shortcut. 3) It was weird that my cellphone was in a Qwerty layout but my computer wasn't. I seem to recall having a lot of issues trying to get Dvorak to work as the default layout. 4) I shared the computer with another family member. They complained that they had to learn the new layout. I convinced them it would improve their typing speed and they agreed. Eventually, they also started going to the library to do some research, which of course had a Qwerty layout. This caused an incredible amount of grief for them. Ultimately, this is the reason I switched back. 5) I seem to remember programming in general just being more uncomfortable in Dvorak. I think the punctuation I needed was in the upper left(?) which put a lot of extra strain on my left pinky. I liked Dvorak quite a bit, but it just felt impractical. The world I live in just feels like it's setup for Qwerty, inefficient as that layout may be. I see it like if someone chose to become left-handed. You could do it, but if an much more popular method exists, and there is extra effort in going with the less popular one, for what amounts to the same outcome, why go through the struggle? If things were to suddenly switch tomorrow, I'd gladly switch back, I just don't see much point in fighting for such a thing when we have a solution that is close enough.
ComputerGuru 3y ago
As a Dvorak user (for 20 years now), I always say "I came for the speed benefits that never materialized, but stayed for the ergonomics (reduced strain)"
- washmyelbows 3y ago
  same here! If I could go back, I would've learned colemak for the keyboard shortcut reasons people have outlined in other comments, but I don't have it in me to learn another layout at this point.
- hinkley 3y ago
  I was dealing with RSI when I learned Dvorak. The speed appealed to my ego, but I was really just trying to save my career.
lucidguppy 3y ago
I learned dvorak - I would have stuck with it if I didn't have to have other people use my computer - or use other peoples computers. Qwerty is fast enough...
atentaten 3y ago
As someone who is expertly proficient in QWERTY since my teens, is it even possible to learnDVORAK and be proficient in both in an ambidextrous sort of way?
- davidgrenier 3y ago
  Yes, maintaining your proficient in QWERTY is only a matter of not stopping to use it altogether when switching to a new layout. It'll just be a matter of time spent to become fluent in both. I recommend Colemak however. I personally didn't maintaing typing on QWERTY, interestingly my brain still has the QWERTY mapping for tablets.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- Jtsummers 3y ago
  Yes. When I switched to Dvorak (college, circa 2000 or 2001) my Qwerty speed dropped from around 60 to around 20, and Dvorak, after a couple months, was up to 60. Then 120. My Qwerty speed stayed low until I got a job where I didn't have full-control of all the computers I used (shared lab systems, didn't want to be rude and create confusion by adding a layout to them even if it was opt-in). At that point I was spending about half the day on my own work computer in Dvorak (still around 120 wpm) and half in Qwerty and my Qwerty speed went back to around 60-70. If you don't want as big a delay (several years for me from when my Qwerty speed dropped to when it recovered), I'd suggest going "all in" on Dvorak for 3-6 months and then integrate some Qwerty time in deliberately to recover and then maintain your Qwerty proficiency.
codetrotter 3y ago
I used to use Dvorak exclusively. Now I use a mix of Dvorak some of the time and QWERTY some of the time. I have a Dvorak layout for the ErgoDox EZ Shine keyboard, link to repo below. There’s a PDF linked from the reademe in the repo showing what my Dvorak layout looks like. https://github.com/ctsrc/ergodox-ez-shine-dvorak https://github.com/ctsrc/ergodox-ez-shine-dvorak
mondocat 3y ago
I learned to use the Dvorak keyboard and was quickly as fast, and then faster than Querty. That's not what interesting. I felt like my brain was unencumbered with the additional motor control required of the Querty layout, resulting in improved memory and cognitive ability while I was typing. I would love to see this effect experimentally tested.
adrian_b 3y ago
I have switched to Dvorak only one year ago, after many decades of using QWERTY. I consider this as one of my best decisions and my only regret is that I have not tried to do this many years earlier, because I had wrongly feared that typing Dvorak on a keyboard with QWERTY inscriptions might be a hindrance. As many other posters have already said, the advantage of Dvorak is seldom a greater speed (and I needed a couple of months to recover the previous typing speed). The big advantage of Dvorak is a much greater comfort while typing. I will never go back to QWERTY.
- Aachen 3y ago
  Did you have discomfort while typing on qwerty? That you noticed before trying Dvorak I mean.
  - adrian_b 3y ago
    When I was using QWERTY, I did not really have a feeling of discomfort, but I did not enjoy typing and sometimes I resented that this activity is unavoidable for transferring my thoughts into the computer. After switching to Dvorak, even after only a few days and even if only significantly later I have reached and exceeded the previous typing speed, it already felt much easier to find by touch any key than it has ever felt on QWERTY, despite the fact that I have been using QWERTY since high school, for almost a half of century. Now I enjoy typing and it feels effortlessly, which has never happened before. So before trying Dvorak seriously, I was never concerned with the fact that the keyboard layout may be suboptimal. Only after the change the improvement has been obvious and I have realized that what I had been using previously had not been good enough. Nevertheless, when someone wants to try another keyboard layout, an appropriate time must be chosen, when for a few days there is nothing that must be typed ASAP. During the first few days the drop in typing speed can be very large. The slow typing speed can be very frustrating and it is very difficult to resist the temptation of going back to the previous keyboard layout, for a normal typing speed.
geocrasher 3y ago
I once decided that since I broke my left hand, it would be a good opportunity to learn Right Hand Dvorak. I was wrong. I was a terrible idea. Instead of being somewhat able to type with QWERTY, I was barely able to type at all with RH Dvorak. I tried it for a day, went back to QWERTY.
- Jabrov 3y ago
  It takes longer than a day though! It took me about 2 weeks to get accustomed to Dvorak, and maybe a few weeks more to start being faster than QWERTY
  - geocrasher 3y ago
    For sure- the issue though was that I was almost completely unproductive. I had work to do :)
- mgbmtl 3y ago
  Switching keyboards takes at least 2-4 weeks, in my opinion, to get to somewhat 80% speed of what you would expect. Personally, switching to a "columnar" keyboard (Moonlander keyboard) took me about that time, but afterwards I could switch between keyboards without too much confusion. (I don't type faster, but I feel less pain from typing)
- Aachen 3y ago
  I tried Dvorak for a ~month, on and off, and still didn't type as fast as with qwerty. Plus my qwerty performance was reducing. Can't recommend to do anything but cold turkey (or at least 80% of the time or so), and most definitely you'll need more than a day. You can't conclude it's a bad layout from just one day of starting to learn it! If I can recommend it at all, that is. If you regularly type on someone else's keyboard, it's already a no go. Yes, this is why we can't have nice things (it's objectively better than qwerty for pretty much any latin-script language that has vowels, yet we don't switch, and I'm basically recommending to maintain that status quo).
jcalvinowens 3y ago
I switched to Colemak a little over 10 years ago and I've never looked back. I used to struggle a lot with hand pain when typing for more than a few hours, Colemak completely fixed that. It took me about three weeks to become proficient enough that typing stopped being frustrating. Those three weeks really sucked, that was the hardest part. It took a couple years, but I'm solidly "bilingual" now and can switch between Colemak and Qwerty with no effort. There is zero overlap in my brain with thumb typing on the phone and touch typing on a keyboard. I've kept qwerty on my pixel and it's never bothered or confused me once. It's not really a win for me in terms of productivity, but being able to type 120wpm is fun :)
- rsolva 3y ago
  Your story is very similar to mine, I switched to Colemak in 2010 and it took about 3 weeks of 5 minutes bursts of practice a couple of times every day(ish). I have never looked back. My motivation was moving my finger less, speed was just a bonus.
  - tome 3y ago
    Eerily similar to mine too! Except I switched to Dvorak; Colemak didn't exist at the time :(
hakanderyal 3y ago
You can use Dvorak and QWERTY together. I’ve been using Programmers Dvorak together with QWERTY for 10+ years. Whenever I need to use common shortcuts I switch layouts with a simple shortcut, and sometimes do this dance a few times if a few seconds subconsciously as needed. Typing speed is unimportant, it’s the reduced strain that is the main benefit.
- nashashmi 3y ago
  So whenever you are constantly typing, you move to Dvorak? Otherwise you are in QWERTY?
  - hakanderyal 3y ago
    Nope, I’m using Dvorak mainly, but switch to QWERTY when I need to use shortcuts with one hand while the other is using the mouse (when designing in Figma etc).
- fallat 3y ago
  Another 10+ year user of this reporting in. It's 10000% not the speed but the reduced strain. I used to get bad pain from typing 60wpm in QWERTY for 30 minutes. I can type 100WPM constantly for the whole day with zero pain since the days I switched in college. It took me 3 times to change, but once I forced myself it was great. Edit: And want to clarify from reading other comments: I was a touch typist on QWERTY, had the recommended posture, and even used ergonomic keyboards. The pain happens in your knuckles and back of your hand, not wrists. Zero of that ten years later.
brodouevencode 3y ago
Most of the comments seem to be "I switched to Dvorak and love it" with a couple of "I switched to Dvorak but had to go back to QWERTY for other people". Is there anyone that became sufficiently proficient with Dvorak and regret it/wished they hadn't wasted their time?
- GloriousKoji 3y ago
  I wish I didn't. I loved DVORAK when I used it and wish it was the standard so all the video game keys and office shortcuts didn't require a QWERTY layout but I feel like using DVORAK permanently ruined the keyboard pathway in my brain. When went back to QWERTY my typing accuracy took a hit compared to what it was before learning DVORAK. A couple decades later it still feels like I don't have absolute mastery of any keyboard layout anymore.
  - ziml77 3y ago
    Shortcuts and default keybindings are exactly why I haven't touched Dvorak. I don't want to remap them in every application I use (if the application even supports that). And the remapping might not even be consistent. Take Ctrl-C for example. When it comes to editing text, I'd want to remap it into the same position because on QWERTY theres a bunch of others set up to all be next to each other and easy to press with just the left hand. But when it comes to sending a SIGINT, I'd want that to remain as Ctrl-C no matter where C is located.
    - tbocek 3y ago
      [dead]
- projektfu 3y ago
  I switched in 1998 and kept it up for several years. BYOD wasn't a thing back then so I had to be able to switch but it wasn't that hard. My main gripe was relearning emacs, never got efficient at it. Too much muscle memory and less memory of the names of the key sequences. I was an 80 wpm typist since 1993. On Dvorak I never got that fast even on a Model M, which I was wicked fast on using QWERTY. Eventually the laptop keyboards took over and my accuracy and comfort plummeted overall. I think most problems could be solved by sitting properly and typing on a keyboard with good response like Cherry MX Brown or buckling spring keyboards, and not using a palm rest.
sl0tr4cer 3y ago
I have used Dvorak keyboards with my Linux desktop for many years
dadoum 3y ago
Dvorak is also based on English spelling, and thus its benefits vanish almost everywhere in the world. There are other alternative layouts, having the same kind of marginal gain over the standard, but then it's not available everywhere, and if you're a developer, you may also want an easier access to braces and stuff, and from here your keyboard will basically work nowhere unless you buy some kind of custom hardware to do the translation. And it also has the same problem to me as QWERTY, it makes numbers accessible while I don't care since most keyboards have a numpad (and to enter a number holding shift isn't hard) while for example it adds a significant amount of keystrokes to open and close a brace.
- adrian_b 3y ago
  Regardless whether one uses Dvorak or QWERTY, it is good to revert the effect of the shift key on the 10 numeric keys of the upper row. Thus the non-alphanumeric symbols, which are more frequent in programming languages, are available directly, while keeping shift pressed for the entire duration of a number is easy, so it is a minor disadvantage. I also find useful to map the 3 pairs of ASCII brackets on 3 keys, so that the opening brackets are available directly and the closing brackets with shift. I need very seldom to type the closing brackets, as they are normally inserted automatically by most editors.
- EduardoBautista 3y ago
  The benefits don't vanish completely, since vowels are still the most common letters in most Latin-alphabet based languages.
  - a1369209993 3y ago
    > vowels are still the most common letters in most Latin-alphabet based languages. Also "s" "t" and "n" are fairly-to-very common in damn near every language (Latin-alphabet or otherwise) due to how phonetics works. (They're the default-voiced-ness for each manner of articulation at the most-default-ish - alveolar - place of articulation for consonant phonemes.) The other two - "h" and "d" - are less universal, but still better than "j" and "g".
robbyking 3y ago
Do people really make the assumption that the QWERTY keyboard's layout is random? I'm GenX and I was taught the reason given in the video.
gnicholas 3y ago
I am generally very efficiency-minded (I run a speed-reading startup!), but I have never even felt the urge to try an alternate layout. Has anyone else who initially resisted these given it a try, and how long did it take you to figure out if it was amazing, or meh?
- toyg 3y ago
  I've never seen the point in DVORAK or other fancy layouts, until I read a post on Workman and Colemak and decided to give Colemak a try. To this day, I think it's one of the best decisions I've ever made - it resulted in much more relaxed typing, and forever broke a bad habit of looking at keys while typing. How long did it take to reach that conclusion? Probably about a month. After achieving decent speeds on Colemak, going back to Qwerty just felt painful - even when I was going faster, it felt so much more stressful.
  - gnicholas 3y ago
    Did you buy a new keyboard? I assume it's easy to set up on an iPhone? What about when you have to use a QWERTY keyboard, on someone else's computer or at a kiosk or something? I'd also be curious to know if folks would recommend this for kids, especially those who have not yet mastered touch-typing on QWERTY.
    - toyg 3y ago
      > Did you buy a new keyboard? No, i just printed out the new layout and stuck it near the monitor. Eventually I moved to blank keycaps. > easy to set up on an iPhone? Why would I care about that? Phones are for thumbs, and thumbs have their own muscle memory. Besides, the strength of layouts like Colemak is typically in leveraging the home-row, which is really not a thing on phones, so there is no point. It would make more sense to investigate those fancy swipey versions (or make new layouts that leverage "home columns"?). > What about when you have to use a QWERTY keyboard I just go a bit slower. Which is fine, considering it's such a rare experience...
      - 3y ago
gnicholas 3y ago
So he mentions the "popular" belief that QWERTY was designed to avoid jams from typists hitting adjacent keys in rapid succession, but he doesn't say whether this is untrue or not. It seemed implied that this is false, but I'm left uncertain. Does anyone know?
- toyg 3y ago
  Wikipedia links a short paper discussing this: https://repository.kulib.kyoto-u.ac.jp/dspace/bitstream/2433/139379/1/42_161.pdf https://repository.kulib.kyoto-u.ac.jp/dspace/bitstream/2433... TL;DR: it's more likely it was just the result of a series of progressive compromises, as keyboards moved from telegraph to typewriting.
- Aachen 3y ago
  Agreed, the video is way too short (basically he gives the introduction and then thanks us for watching?!) and doesn't answer the question. The HN comment thread is interesting but the video leaves the viewer sitting with a finger half raised at the screen going "I still have questions"
StrangeATractor 3y ago
...because it breaks vi.
deleted 3y ago
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esotericimpl 3y ago
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Andrew_nenakhov 3y ago
I'm a Dvorak user myself since ~2006, and it is good. The main benefit is not the speed, but much less fatigue from typing: you move your fingers far less. This does come at a cost: hotkeys are usually a mess, especially if you have a second language layout (Cyrillic in my case), sometimes working differently dependent on layout, and hotkeys positions are typically optimised for QWERTY. Interestingly, all Dvorak advantages on regular keyboard become severe disadvantages on smartphones: Dvorak is optimised for alternating hands while typing as much as possible, but when you type with one thumb, you constantly need to move your finger from one side of a keyboard to another. One could probably come with a screen keyboard layout optimized to type with one finger, but I'm yet to see such keyboard.
- lbourdages 3y ago
  OSX has a Dvorak-Qwerty-⌘ layout where commands use the Qwerty letters so people switching can keep their muscle memory. It helped when I tried to learn, but I abandoned because I felt like the effort wasn't worth it. I already type fast enough for my needs.
  - Andrew_nenakhov 3y ago
    I actually tried that and it's very confusing, because now no keys are corresponding to new positions of English letters. I ended up creating my own Dvorak and Cyrillic layouts, so that Cyrillic layout has hotkeys on their Dvorak positions (in most apps, but not all), and Dvorak layout has some keys like -,= on the same positions as ЙЦУКЕН Cyrillic layout. Still, I didn't yet find a way to make this layout default for a system: macOS refuses to use one of these on lock screen to enter password, but that's a minor inconvenience.
- kenhwang 3y ago
  I switch between Dvorak and QWERTY on my computer keyboards primarily because of the shortcuts being a mess. But since I only exclusively type with two thumbs on my phone, Dvorak is noticeably faster than QWERTY.
  - 3y ago
kazinator 3y ago
Could one reason that Dvorak didn't catch on is that its established rival, QWERTY, was not randomly designed? QWERTY supposedly helps to reduce jams. Dvorak was introduced at a time in which that was still a problem, before electric typewriters. If Dvorak didn't actually produce its speed advantages on a classic, mechanical typewriter in which a semicircular gallery of arms concentrate their strikes on the same tiny location on the ink ribbon, typists trying Dvorak would have found that Dvorak's claims don't actually hold up.
mgreenw 3y ago
I wrote a blog post about my experience with Dvorak! TL;DR It's great, but if you're interested you should use Colemak. Once you switch you won't go back. https://maxgreenwald.me/blog/switching-to-dvorak https://maxgreenwald.me/blog/switching-to-dvorak
osbert 3y ago
I built a simulator to allow you to experience what it is like to type in Dvorak before committing to learn the layout. It assumes that you can touch-type in QWERTY. Enter some text into the first text box, and it gives you the equivalent keypresses to make [in QWERTY] that would output the same sentence in Dvorak. https://dvorak.iterinc.com/ https://dvorak.iterinc.com/ https://github.com/osbert/dv-sim2 https://github.com/osbert/dv-sim2 A former colleague of mine graciously contributed Colemak as an option as well.
- barroomhero 3y ago
  This is great! Also seems like a simple code engine. Kjg; g; uodak! Ap;s ;ddm; pgvd a ;gmrpd ishd dluglde
  - Aachen 3y ago
    That's called a substitution cipher and can be defeated by hand by using frequency analysis, in case anyone wanted to know that. Please don't call the party pooper police!
agnosticmantis 3y ago
I wonder if a keyboard optimized for typists (typing in English with the most common word being ‘the’) is also optimal for programmers (writing code in say Python, with the most commonly used word likely being ‘def’ or ‘if’). The statistics of the two corpora should be different.
- Aachen 3y ago
  I expect there'll be a difference in which layout is optimal when analysing an average python code base with names (variables, functions, etc.) in your language versus regular text in that language, but honestly this is not where typing holds me back. Very rarely do I max out on typing speed for just a few minutes when coding something greenfield. Even if we're talking comfort rather than speed, you'd probably get 99% of the way by laying out symbols differently and leaving the letters and digits untouched.
  - agnosticmantis 3y ago
    Agreed on optimal with respect to either task will be much better than QWERTY overall.
the__alchemist 3y ago
IMO not worth it when switching between personal and shared computers, OS shortcuts like copy/paste, or when executing programs that code the raw key inputs vice characters, like games. Juice was not worth squeeze for me.
maximilianroos 3y ago
Ironically Qwerty is extremely well-designed for typing on a touchscreen phone. Dvorak was designed to have common characters on home keys and common character sequences alternate between each hand. That's great on a keyboard with 4 fingers on each hand. On a touch screen, that's really bad! Characters close together complicate touchscreen recognition - is it "poet", "peet", or "pout"? And consecutive characters on opposite sides of the keyboard creates lots of movement for a single thumb. Instead, Qwerty has common characters spread out across the keyboard, and many common character sequences close together (e.g. "-ed", "tion"). Which is exactly the pattern that is fast & accurate on a touchscreen.
- xx__yy 3y ago
  I've had the on-screen keyboard on my phone set to Dvorak for > 5 years, and I just can't switch back to Qwerty. I think it's quite good for the phone.
nayuki 3y ago
I documented my Dvorak experience in an FAQ. https://www.nayuki.io/page/i-type-in-dvorak https://www.nayuki.io/page/i-type-in-dvorak
euroderf 3y ago
Obv it would be helpful/nice/cool to have reconfigurable keycaps, where the keycap's legend (LED-enhanced) could display whatever character you choose. Each key glowing in conformance with your current keyboard layout of choice. The last time I searched around for something like this, all I could find was some guy in Russia who had hacked up a positively brilliant-looking homebrew keyboard.
- amenghra 3y ago
  Never used it, but there's https://www.nemeio.com/ https://www.nemeio.com/ With the right software, you could even "improve" the layout on a daily basis based on the most used keys the previous day.
  - euroderf 3y ago
    Looks sleek! No pricing. Sign me up anyways. Ready for APL, music, IPA, Linear B, ...
explorigin 3y ago
Workman user checking in. Every positive thing about dvorak is also true for workman plus you get easy control keys and easier learning from qwerty.
milohax 3y ago
I learnt Dvorak in 2 weeks and got back to my hunt-and-peck QWERTY speed within a month, within 2 I was typing 60-70WPM without effort, and about 90% accuracy. I did this with no formal training and my only motivation was that at that time I couldn't afford an "ergonomic keyboard" and had heard that Dvorak was better, so I gave it a try. It's also an ANSI standard so I didn't have to install any weird software, just choose it in the operating system settings. I no longer have shooting pains up my arms. Whether that's a result of the ergonomics of Dvorak, or simply that I can touch type, is not something I'm qualified to answer, but what I can say is that: - Dvorak is easy to learn - only takes mild motivation to get good at - is more comfortable which leads to better typing habits that are good for you physically and make you a faster typist than hunt-and-peck, with less effort than learning to touch type on QWERTY. Would I learn Dvorak these days over another layout like Colemak or whatever is the favorite today? Yes, I would, because it's a standard. I think we're at diminishing returns (for English) so it doesn't really matter: anything is better than QWERTY, even ABCDE...
Slackwise 3y ago
So, why not a steno keyboard instead? While DVORAK may only be a 5% improvement over QWERTY, a steno keyboard is vastly superior in typing speed and ergonomics, as it's used by courtroom stenographers keeping up with recording speech. (And if you learn on a proper steno keyboard, your muscle memory won't get all confused because the keys are entirely different.)
felix318 3y ago
Somewhat unrelated: shouldn’t it be pronounced “Dvorjak”? That is how the other famous Dvorak (Czech composer) is pronounced.
BrotherBisquick 3y ago
I could never get past the idea of a key sending a different keystroke than the one printed on it. Yes, I know you're not supposed to look at the keyboard as you type. And I don't. But I still don't like it. It sets off "this is dumb" alarm bells in my head. And because it's impossible to replace every keyboard I own or use, or physically rearrange their keys from QWERTY to Dvorak/Colemak, i'm stuck with QWERTY.
- euroderf 3y ago
  I'm thinking, just tape a few DIY legends onto a few key keys (heh) and then glance at a paper cheat sheet for the rest. Repeat as necessary.
strus 3y ago
I’ve tried Dvorak and Colemak but went back to QWERTY. Whole software world is developed with QWERTY in mind, and it was too much PITA. Split keyboard (especially with ortholinear, column staggered layout) will give you much more benefit than any alternative layout - and will be much easier to switch too.

117 points by sbuttgereit 3y ago

I like this guys content generally, but it's worth noting in this instance he's unknowingly echo-ing free-market libertarian dogma. > You might hear comments from time to time about studies showing Dvorak is "no better than QWERTY," or words to that effect. All such comments that I've heard seem to echo an article, "The Fable of the Keys," by S. J. Liebowitz and Stephen E. Margolis, published in the Journal of Law & Economics, vol. XXXIII (April 1990). > Note the word "economics." Liebowitz and Margolis are economists opposed to an "excessive inertia" theory, for which QWERTY is often cited as an example. Rather than try to prove their point with a generally valid argument, they simply attack Dvorak as a dubious replacement for QWERTY. As the article's last footnote explains, there are a number of other possible reasons for Dvorak's failure to replace QWERTY, besides a perceived lack of value. The article ignores those reasons, however, and perpetrates that false perception in a nicely self-fulfilling way. https://web.archive.org/web/20050204023432/http://www.mwbrooks.com/dvorak/dissent.html https://web.archive.org/web/20050204023432/http://www.mwbroo...

bediger4000 3y ago
I haven't looked in a few years, but "The Fable of the Keys" was not available on the web. I had to slip into CU's library to find it on microfiche. Unimpressive paper, no original research, just pot shots at old Navy and Dvorak experiments. Economists call "excessive inertia" "path dependence".
causi 3y ago
What makes that libertarian dogma?
- lern_too_spel 3y ago
  Path dependence is a kind of market failure. Libertarians like to pretend that market failure does not exist in free markets because market failure implies market intervention. The authors of "The Fable of the Keys" have frequently argued against the existence of path dependence. https://eh.net/encyclopedia/path-dependence/ https://eh.net/encyclopedia/path-dependence/

throwawaymaths 3y ago

As a dvorak user: in a way that's kinda great that dvorak didn't make it. It's terrible for mobile.

grog454 3y ago
I use Dvorak for keyboards and qwerty for thumbs. Keeps them both in muscle memory to some extent, so it's not too painful when I'm using someone else's keyboard.
- xhevahir 3y ago
  Me, too. I tried using Dvorak on the phone once I saw it was available but soon realized that my Dvorak skill was entirely muscle memory and that I had no visual sense of the layout. QWERTY (plus "glide" or "swipe" typing) works fine for that purpose, for me.
  - throwawaymaths 3y ago
    The vowel collisions is what makes dvorak nearly unusable
- codemac 3y ago
  Ditto! It's actually good for thumbs because your thumbs can't get all crumbled on top of eachother. Same for swipe typing - the further distances makes it easier to pick up on different words.
ascagnel_ 3y ago
I can kind of see that: by moving all the frequently-used letters to the edges and mostly away from each other (and keeping frequent letter pairs further apart), it probably makes interpreting taps between letters and things like swipe keyboards easier to execute.
- throwawaymaths 3y ago
  Specifically the vowels. Lots of words have levenstein distance one vowel in many langs (yes I'm aware many langs don't use qwerty but most are ~)

aaron_m04 3y ago

One YouTube comment echoed my experience with Dvorak: > Often overlooked is that the main reason for switching to dvorak isn't speed for most users. The dvorak layout is layed out for minimal movement while maintaining a roughly even split between hands. This reduces strain on a typists hands and helps a great deal with comfort when typing for longer periods of time. I may not type faster than if I had stuck with qwerty, but I definitely don't have the wrist problems I keep hearing coworkers complain about.

irjustin 3y ago
Split keyboards is my recommendation
- grog454 3y ago
  Split keyboards can help with wrist positioning but not finger travel, both of which can contribute to wrist problems.
  - lawn 3y ago
    That's why you should also choose a small keyboard, like one with 34 keys or similar.
    - rgoulter 3y ago
      For typing alphabetical characters, I'd expect a more significant impact from "adopt Dvorak instead of QWERTY" over "adopt a smaller keyboard". For reducing strain to access keys like shift/backspace/escape/tab, I think that's where "use keyboard with multiple thumbkeys" would have a benefit, yeah.
    - GoldenRacer 3y ago
      What type of layout do you use for 34 keys? I've got a 42 key split board so I'm not a total noob to minimalist keyboard but struggle to see how 34 keys can be used effectively.

api_or_ipa 3y ago

As a dvorak user, whatever increase in typing speed is mostly irrelevant, for most of us, our output isn't limited by how fast we can type, but how fast we can think. That being said, a long time ago I took an analysis of one of our code bases, mapped every character onto dvorak and qwerty keyboards to produce heatmaps, and it's startling how much less the fingers have to move on a dvorak keyboard. So if you're lazy, dvorak might be something to consider. Overall, I've been using dvorak for >10 years and I like it. Going back to Qwerty is like going back to sleeping on a twin mattress. It gets the job done, but once you've become accustomed to sleeping on a queen, it's hard to justify going back to a twin.

TylerE 3y ago
The issue I have with Dvorak is that it pushes many common programmer keys, like [], <>, and ; waaaay out to very unergonomic locations.
- Symbiote 3y ago
  ,.<> are slightly more convenient than on Qwerty, ;: is obviously worse but hardly "way out" (it's where Z is on Qwerty). []{} are indeed further out, but instead we have -_=+ closer. Once we add in all the English I type, file-names, U_R_L?s, --command --flags, /directories/, I think, if anything, the rearrangement is an advantage.
Apofis 3y ago
Using QUERTY after colemak is like being retarded, so after trying alternate keyboard layouts for a while, I'm just doing a hardpass on anything not QUERTY until we get rid of keyboards entirely.
moi2388 3y ago
I just don’t understand that metric or why Dvorak people keep using it. Yes my fingers might travel less, but do we know that moving your hands less leads to a reduction in pain and injury? I’d argue having them constantly in the same position might also do that. And what about comfort? My index finger is stronger than my pinky; id much rather move further with my index finger than my pinky..

Avlin67 3y ago

You dont need to type fast to be productive imho

2023throwawayy 3y ago
For me, using DVORAK has nothing to do with speed, and everything to do with comfort. It's simply easier to use and results in less hand and wrist strain.
crimsontech 3y ago
Really depends on what your job is.

mightyham 3y ago

I taught myself dvorak for fun in high school have used it everyday for close to a decade now. It certainly never made me a faster typer, but what I don't hear a lot of people point out is that it is simply a more pleasant experience. Whenever I switch back to qwerty (I can still touch type in both), I become instantly contingent that my hands are having to move more erratically over the surface of my keyboard to type any given word or sentence. Also a couple small things about the layout that really like are that the underscore key is much easier to reach and the period and comma keys are on the top row which makes writing long numbers with decimals and commas nicer.

warp 3y ago

With the rise of (split) mechanical keyboards as a hobby in its own right (with open source keyboard firmware like QMK and ZMK) it is much easier to make small tweaks to your layout as you find things which annoy you, so there seems to be a lot of experimentation going on right now with alternative layouts. I feel like I'm one of the last generation of Dvorak typers, anyone who cares about typing ergonomics learning about alternate layouts is probably both better off and more likely to try e.g. colemak, or something newer or maybe even design their own.

jupp0r 3y ago
I think there is immense value to being able to walk up to any computer, change the keyboard setting and being productive.
- WorldMaker 3y ago
  It's my lone complaint with Colemak is that Windows still doesn't include it out-of-the-box and needs it to be admin-installed from an MSI bundle that needs to be downloaded (or copied from a thumb drive). Every other modern OS includes it today (including iOS).
  - toyg 3y ago
    I agree. At least they made it trivial to switch layout even on the login screen, with win+spacebar.
  - jupp0r 3y ago
    That's the exact reason why I chose Dvorak over Colemak a decade or so ago. Sad to see that this hasn't been fixed yet.

nfriend 3y ago

Anecdotally, I gave Dvorak a try and became somewhat proficient, but ultimately reverted back to QWERTY for one reason: keyboard shortcuts! Control-C|V|Z are all transformed into either two-handed shortcuts or right-handed shortcuts. In either case, I can't copy/paste while selecting text with the mouse (since I'm right-handed). I now use Colemak (https://colemak.com/ https://colemak.com/) which doesn't have this issue and I'm quite happy with!

beeforpork 3y ago
For Emacs controls, I found that Dvorak is not much of a problem after remapping it a tiny bit: (keyboard-translate ?\C-c ?\C-n) (keyboard-translate ?\C-h ?\C-c)
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- codemac 3y ago
  I ended up with the following[0] (keyboard-translate ?\C-x ?\C-t) (keyboard-translate ?\C-t ?\C-x) Along with a quick function to make sure I don't forget :) (global-set-key (kbd "C-t") (lambda () (interactive) (run-with-timer 0.3 nil (lambda () ;; Assuming these are the default values (setq visible-bell nil) (setq ring-bell-function 'ignore))) (setq visible-bell t) (setq ring-bell-function nil) (error "Don't press that button."))) [0]: https://github.com/codemac/config/blob/master/emacs.d/boot.org#dvorak https://github.com/codemac/config/blob/master/emacs.d/boot.o...
carabiner 3y ago
On Mac, you have the "Dvorak - QWERTY ⌘" layout which retains QWERTY shortcuts.
- danpalmer 3y ago
  I used to love this, eventually just took the plunge and learnt the shortcuts though and I'm more productive because I can use non-Mac Dvorak layouts.

theonemind 3y ago

I use Dvorak. When typing on QWERTY, I feel like I'm playing a secretary in a 1950s movie trying to ham up the notion that I'm really typing something here, because it feels my fingers have to fly around everywhere in an exaggerated and ostentatious manner. If you have typing speed less than 50 WPM, you'll probably type faster by switching to Dvorak. If you type faster than that before switching, your typing speed will go down and not fully recover automatically unless you train it back up. I lost some speed that I never recovered. It wasn't worth the effort because I can still type fast enough. A lot of people get hung up on the keybindings thing. zxcv for CUA cut-copy-paste make a nice little row on QWERTY, and hjkl for vi type movements, but as it turns out, it really doesn't matter. Those help you learn when muscle memory doesn't translate into intention without thinking. Once you learn them by muscle memory, it doesn't matter where the keys are. I just use programs with QWERTY shortcuts and press the key on Dvorak wherever it happens to land on the layout, and it works perfectly fine. I can still touch type QWERTY, but quite a bit slower than Dvorak.

uticus 3y ago
> ...vi type movements... Can attest vi movements can be learned on Dvorak. But have to admit it is not quite as nice, those movements were designed for qwerty. Of course "j" and "k" are next to each other on Dvorak. "h" and "l" are also positioned at first and fourth fingers like qwerty... but on different rows and on different hand than "j/k". Which means Dvorak requires two-handed vi movements. Maybe not a big deal, vi shortcuts mean moving all over the keyboard anyway. Just not quite as nice.

gorjusborg 3y ago

I tried and considered switching to dvorak as my main keyboard layout. I didn't stay with it because of two things: 1. The fact I'd have to keep both in my muscle-memory due to swapping onto other people's machines 2. Vim keybindings

cxr 3y ago
Vim is perfectly usable with Dvorak.
- gorjusborg 3y ago
  Could you elaborate? My experience was that vim keybindings are tied to characters, not key codes (position). Insert is 'i', not the key at position of 'i' in QUERTY. Maybe I was doing it wrong, but Vim, for me, is all about the interface and muscle memory. Having keys move position due to the different keyboard layout was a deal-breaker.
  - rgoulter 3y ago
    e.g. I recall that blogpost titled "ZZ vs zz". I use both of these on both QWERTY and Dvorak frequently enough; although tbh I had to actually try typing 'zz' to recall what it did. My suspicion is that when I picked up using Dvorak with Vim, whatever association or motor-memory goes on gets some indirection added, so that 'letter and position' are not quite so tightly coupled.
rgoulter 3y ago
> Vim keybindings Dvorak's actually pretty good for vim keybindings. While 'hjkl' is positionally significant; Dvorak 'jk' are still adjacent and easy to reach in Dvorak, and 'h' is still to the left of 'l' on the same hand. Other keybindings are better remembered by the letter itself rather than by the position on the keyboard (e.g. "di'" or "gg"), so these aren't that much of an issue.
- gorjusborg 3y ago

Faaak 3y ago

Switched to dvorak ~10 years ago. The first 2 months were terrible: it took me 40 minutes to write a simple e-mail (no must not write the keys on the keyboard, but have a cheat sheet next to you to train your "muscle memory"). After some time though, in my case around a year, you start reaching your previous speed (in my case qwerty). I didn't gain speed but I gained a lot of muscular comfort. Indeed, you frequently do some weird gestures typing on a qwerty due to the dispositions of the keys. It's much rarer on dvorak and I'm really glad for that.

WillAdams 3y ago

When I was in the Air Force and had to take a typing class (on IBM Selectrics w/ blank keycaps), they had a couple set aside with Dvorak keyboard layouts --- everyone was offered the chance to "type out" on the first day, by typing 50 WPM or faster after adjusting for errors (I did 65). The instructor noted that while folks often failed when testing on QWERTY, that he had never seen a formally trained Dvorak keyboard typist fail to type out, and that most were well above the average QWERTY speed.

bhahn 3y ago

I was exclusively using Dvorak on my home and work machines for 8 years, but switched back to QWERTY about 5 years ago. I loved the feel of Dvorak -- subjectively more comfortable -- but minor annoyances added up. 1. I didn't practice QWERTY, so when I used someone else's computer, it was always an exercise in re-jogging my memory 2. Having to use one hand/finger to type (don't ask me why :)) on DVORAK was super slow because I had to map manually each key in my brain because I couldn't rely on the letters on the physical key caps Ultimately I also wasn't typing that much, even as a programmer, so it didn't make a huge difference for me, but I do miss it sometimes.

registeredcorn 3y ago

I had used a Dvorak layout for a few years and loved it. Ultimately, I switched back to Qwerty for a few fairly practical reasons: 1) Every video game I've ever played has had key bindings with Qwerty (or a controller) in mind. I would estimate that roughly 60%-ish of those games permit for some level of keyboard remapping. When remapping is possible, there will be bewildering exceptions for certain actions. When it's not possible, they are impossible to play. Yes, I am aware you can switch between different layouts through the OS easily enough, but after I had gotten used to a letter being in a specific spot for Dvorak, and then being prompted to press it in a Qwerty layout, I found myself mis-typing extremely frequently for button prompts. It also became a chore to switch between them if I was in the middle of playing, then wanted type out a quick message in instant messenger. 2) Random bugs. I had noticed that for whatever reason, some programs just seemed to have some kind of issue with Dvorak layouts. I can't think of any specifics, it's been at least a decade since then, but it was something bizarre like: program recognizes that I was using a Dvorak layout except if I was using a keyboard shortcut. 3) It was weird that my cellphone was in a Qwerty layout but my computer wasn't. I seem to recall having a lot of issues trying to get Dvorak to work as the default layout. 4) I shared the computer with another family member. They complained that they had to learn the new layout. I convinced them it would improve their typing speed and they agreed. Eventually, they also started going to the library to do some research, which of course had a Qwerty layout. This caused an incredible amount of grief for them. Ultimately, this is the reason I switched back. 5) I seem to remember programming in general just being more uncomfortable in Dvorak. I think the punctuation I needed was in the upper left(?) which put a lot of extra strain on my left pinky. I liked Dvorak quite a bit, but it just felt impractical. The world I live in just feels like it's setup for Qwerty, inefficient as that layout may be. I see it like if someone chose to become left-handed. You could do it, but if an much more popular method exists, and there is extra effort in going with the less popular one, for what amounts to the same outcome, why go through the struggle? If things were to suddenly switch tomorrow, I'd gladly switch back, I just don't see much point in fighting for such a thing when we have a solution that is close enough.

ComputerGuru 3y ago

As a Dvorak user (for 20 years now), I always say "I came for the speed benefits that never materialized, but stayed for the ergonomics (reduced strain)"

washmyelbows 3y ago
same here! If I could go back, I would've learned colemak for the keyboard shortcut reasons people have outlined in other comments, but I don't have it in me to learn another layout at this point.
hinkley 3y ago
I was dealing with RSI when I learned Dvorak. The speed appealed to my ego, but I was really just trying to save my career.

lucidguppy 3y ago

I learned dvorak - I would have stuck with it if I didn't have to have other people use my computer - or use other peoples computers. Qwerty is fast enough...

atentaten 3y ago

As someone who is expertly proficient in QWERTY since my teens, is it even possible to learnDVORAK and be proficient in both in an ambidextrous sort of way?

davidgrenier 3y ago
Yes, maintaining your proficient in QWERTY is only a matter of not stopping to use it altogether when switching to a new layout. It'll just be a matter of time spent to become fluent in both. I recommend Colemak however. I personally didn't maintaing typing on QWERTY, interestingly my brain still has the QWERTY mapping for tablets.
deleted 3y ago
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Jtsummers 3y ago
Yes. When I switched to Dvorak (college, circa 2000 or 2001) my Qwerty speed dropped from around 60 to around 20, and Dvorak, after a couple months, was up to 60. Then 120. My Qwerty speed stayed low until I got a job where I didn't have full-control of all the computers I used (shared lab systems, didn't want to be rude and create confusion by adding a layout to them even if it was opt-in). At that point I was spending about half the day on my own work computer in Dvorak (still around 120 wpm) and half in Qwerty and my Qwerty speed went back to around 60-70. If you don't want as big a delay (several years for me from when my Qwerty speed dropped to when it recovered), I'd suggest going "all in" on Dvorak for 3-6 months and then integrate some Qwerty time in deliberately to recover and then maintain your Qwerty proficiency.

codetrotter 3y ago

I used to use Dvorak exclusively. Now I use a mix of Dvorak some of the time and QWERTY some of the time. I have a Dvorak layout for the ErgoDox EZ Shine keyboard, link to repo below. There’s a PDF linked from the reademe in the repo showing what my Dvorak layout looks like. https://github.com/ctsrc/ergodox-ez-shine-dvorak https://github.com/ctsrc/ergodox-ez-shine-dvorak

mondocat 3y ago

I learned to use the Dvorak keyboard and was quickly as fast, and then faster than Querty. That's not what interesting. I felt like my brain was unencumbered with the additional motor control required of the Querty layout, resulting in improved memory and cognitive ability while I was typing. I would love to see this effect experimentally tested.

adrian_b 3y ago

I have switched to Dvorak only one year ago, after many decades of using QWERTY. I consider this as one of my best decisions and my only regret is that I have not tried to do this many years earlier, because I had wrongly feared that typing Dvorak on a keyboard with QWERTY inscriptions might be a hindrance. As many other posters have already said, the advantage of Dvorak is seldom a greater speed (and I needed a couple of months to recover the previous typing speed). The big advantage of Dvorak is a much greater comfort while typing. I will never go back to QWERTY.

Aachen 3y ago
Did you have discomfort while typing on qwerty? That you noticed before trying Dvorak I mean.
- adrian_b 3y ago
  When I was using QWERTY, I did not really have a feeling of discomfort, but I did not enjoy typing and sometimes I resented that this activity is unavoidable for transferring my thoughts into the computer. After switching to Dvorak, even after only a few days and even if only significantly later I have reached and exceeded the previous typing speed, it already felt much easier to find by touch any key than it has ever felt on QWERTY, despite the fact that I have been using QWERTY since high school, for almost a half of century. Now I enjoy typing and it feels effortlessly, which has never happened before. So before trying Dvorak seriously, I was never concerned with the fact that the keyboard layout may be suboptimal. Only after the change the improvement has been obvious and I have realized that what I had been using previously had not been good enough. Nevertheless, when someone wants to try another keyboard layout, an appropriate time must be chosen, when for a few days there is nothing that must be typed ASAP. During the first few days the drop in typing speed can be very large. The slow typing speed can be very frustrating and it is very difficult to resist the temptation of going back to the previous keyboard layout, for a normal typing speed.

geocrasher 3y ago

I once decided that since I broke my left hand, it would be a good opportunity to learn Right Hand Dvorak. I was wrong. I was a terrible idea. Instead of being somewhat able to type with QWERTY, I was barely able to type at all with RH Dvorak. I tried it for a day, went back to QWERTY.

Jabrov 3y ago
It takes longer than a day though! It took me about 2 weeks to get accustomed to Dvorak, and maybe a few weeks more to start being faster than QWERTY
- geocrasher 3y ago
  For sure- the issue though was that I was almost completely unproductive. I had work to do :)
mgbmtl 3y ago
Switching keyboards takes at least 2-4 weeks, in my opinion, to get to somewhat 80% speed of what you would expect. Personally, switching to a "columnar" keyboard (Moonlander keyboard) took me about that time, but afterwards I could switch between keyboards without too much confusion. (I don't type faster, but I feel less pain from typing)
Aachen 3y ago
I tried Dvorak for a ~month, on and off, and still didn't type as fast as with qwerty. Plus my qwerty performance was reducing. Can't recommend to do anything but cold turkey (or at least 80% of the time or so), and most definitely you'll need more than a day. You can't conclude it's a bad layout from just one day of starting to learn it! If I can recommend it at all, that is. If you regularly type on someone else's keyboard, it's already a no go. Yes, this is why we can't have nice things (it's objectively better than qwerty for pretty much any latin-script language that has vowels, yet we don't switch, and I'm basically recommending to maintain that status quo).

jcalvinowens 3y ago

I switched to Colemak a little over 10 years ago and I've never looked back. I used to struggle a lot with hand pain when typing for more than a few hours, Colemak completely fixed that. It took me about three weeks to become proficient enough that typing stopped being frustrating. Those three weeks really sucked, that was the hardest part. It took a couple years, but I'm solidly "bilingual" now and can switch between Colemak and Qwerty with no effort. There is zero overlap in my brain with thumb typing on the phone and touch typing on a keyboard. I've kept qwerty on my pixel and it's never bothered or confused me once. It's not really a win for me in terms of productivity, but being able to type 120wpm is fun :)

rsolva 3y ago
Your story is very similar to mine, I switched to Colemak in 2010 and it took about 3 weeks of 5 minutes bursts of practice a couple of times every day(ish). I have never looked back. My motivation was moving my finger less, speed was just a bonus.
- tome 3y ago
  Eerily similar to mine too! Except I switched to Dvorak; Colemak didn't exist at the time :(

hakanderyal 3y ago

You can use Dvorak and QWERTY together. I’ve been using Programmers Dvorak together with QWERTY for 10+ years. Whenever I need to use common shortcuts I switch layouts with a simple shortcut, and sometimes do this dance a few times if a few seconds subconsciously as needed. Typing speed is unimportant, it’s the reduced strain that is the main benefit.

nashashmi 3y ago
So whenever you are constantly typing, you move to Dvorak? Otherwise you are in QWERTY?
- hakanderyal 3y ago
  Nope, I’m using Dvorak mainly, but switch to QWERTY when I need to use shortcuts with one hand while the other is using the mouse (when designing in Figma etc).
fallat 3y ago
Another 10+ year user of this reporting in. It's 10000% not the speed but the reduced strain. I used to get bad pain from typing 60wpm in QWERTY for 30 minutes. I can type 100WPM constantly for the whole day with zero pain since the days I switched in college. It took me 3 times to change, but once I forced myself it was great. Edit: And want to clarify from reading other comments: I was a touch typist on QWERTY, had the recommended posture, and even used ergonomic keyboards. The pain happens in your knuckles and back of your hand, not wrists. Zero of that ten years later.

brodouevencode 3y ago

Most of the comments seem to be "I switched to Dvorak and love it" with a couple of "I switched to Dvorak but had to go back to QWERTY for other people". Is there anyone that became sufficiently proficient with Dvorak and regret it/wished they hadn't wasted their time?

GloriousKoji 3y ago
I wish I didn't. I loved DVORAK when I used it and wish it was the standard so all the video game keys and office shortcuts didn't require a QWERTY layout but I feel like using DVORAK permanently ruined the keyboard pathway in my brain. When went back to QWERTY my typing accuracy took a hit compared to what it was before learning DVORAK. A couple decades later it still feels like I don't have absolute mastery of any keyboard layout anymore.
- ziml77 3y ago
  Shortcuts and default keybindings are exactly why I haven't touched Dvorak. I don't want to remap them in every application I use (if the application even supports that). And the remapping might not even be consistent. Take Ctrl-C for example. When it comes to editing text, I'd want to remap it into the same position because on QWERTY theres a bunch of others set up to all be next to each other and easy to press with just the left hand. But when it comes to sending a SIGINT, I'd want that to remain as Ctrl-C no matter where C is located.
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projektfu 3y ago
I switched in 1998 and kept it up for several years. BYOD wasn't a thing back then so I had to be able to switch but it wasn't that hard. My main gripe was relearning emacs, never got efficient at it. Too much muscle memory and less memory of the names of the key sequences. I was an 80 wpm typist since 1993. On Dvorak I never got that fast even on a Model M, which I was wicked fast on using QWERTY. Eventually the laptop keyboards took over and my accuracy and comfort plummeted overall. I think most problems could be solved by sitting properly and typing on a keyboard with good response like Cherry MX Brown or buckling spring keyboards, and not using a palm rest.

sl0tr4cer 3y ago

I have used Dvorak keyboards with my Linux desktop for many years

dadoum 3y ago

Dvorak is also based on English spelling, and thus its benefits vanish almost everywhere in the world. There are other alternative layouts, having the same kind of marginal gain over the standard, but then it's not available everywhere, and if you're a developer, you may also want an easier access to braces and stuff, and from here your keyboard will basically work nowhere unless you buy some kind of custom hardware to do the translation. And it also has the same problem to me as QWERTY, it makes numbers accessible while I don't care since most keyboards have a numpad (and to enter a number holding shift isn't hard) while for example it adds a significant amount of keystrokes to open and close a brace.

adrian_b 3y ago
Regardless whether one uses Dvorak or QWERTY, it is good to revert the effect of the shift key on the 10 numeric keys of the upper row. Thus the non-alphanumeric symbols, which are more frequent in programming languages, are available directly, while keeping shift pressed for the entire duration of a number is easy, so it is a minor disadvantage. I also find useful to map the 3 pairs of ASCII brackets on 3 keys, so that the opening brackets are available directly and the closing brackets with shift. I need very seldom to type the closing brackets, as they are normally inserted automatically by most editors.
EduardoBautista 3y ago
The benefits don't vanish completely, since vowels are still the most common letters in most Latin-alphabet based languages.
- a1369209993 3y ago
  > vowels are still the most common letters in most Latin-alphabet based languages. Also "s" "t" and "n" are fairly-to-very common in damn near every language (Latin-alphabet or otherwise) due to how phonetics works. (They're the default-voiced-ness for each manner of articulation at the most-default-ish - alveolar - place of articulation for consonant phonemes.) The other two - "h" and "d" - are less universal, but still better than "j" and "g".

robbyking 3y ago

Do people really make the assumption that the QWERTY keyboard's layout is random? I'm GenX and I was taught the reason given in the video.

gnicholas 3y ago

I am generally very efficiency-minded (I run a speed-reading startup!), but I have never even felt the urge to try an alternate layout. Has anyone else who initially resisted these given it a try, and how long did it take you to figure out if it was amazing, or meh?

toyg 3y ago
I've never seen the point in DVORAK or other fancy layouts, until I read a post on Workman and Colemak and decided to give Colemak a try. To this day, I think it's one of the best decisions I've ever made - it resulted in much more relaxed typing, and forever broke a bad habit of looking at keys while typing. How long did it take to reach that conclusion? Probably about a month. After achieving decent speeds on Colemak, going back to Qwerty just felt painful - even when I was going faster, it felt so much more stressful.
- gnicholas 3y ago
  Did you buy a new keyboard? I assume it's easy to set up on an iPhone? What about when you have to use a QWERTY keyboard, on someone else's computer or at a kiosk or something? I'd also be curious to know if folks would recommend this for kids, especially those who have not yet mastered touch-typing on QWERTY.
  - toyg 3y ago
    > Did you buy a new keyboard? No, i just printed out the new layout and stuck it near the monitor. Eventually I moved to blank keycaps. > easy to set up on an iPhone? Why would I care about that? Phones are for thumbs, and thumbs have their own muscle memory. Besides, the strength of layouts like Colemak is typically in leveraging the home-row, which is really not a thing on phones, so there is no point. It would make more sense to investigate those fancy swipey versions (or make new layouts that leverage "home columns"?). > What about when you have to use a QWERTY keyboard I just go a bit slower. Which is fine, considering it's such a rare experience...
    - 3y ago

gnicholas 3y ago

So he mentions the "popular" belief that QWERTY was designed to avoid jams from typists hitting adjacent keys in rapid succession, but he doesn't say whether this is untrue or not. It seemed implied that this is false, but I'm left uncertain. Does anyone know?

toyg 3y ago
Wikipedia links a short paper discussing this: https://repository.kulib.kyoto-u.ac.jp/dspace/bitstream/2433/139379/1/42_161.pdf https://repository.kulib.kyoto-u.ac.jp/dspace/bitstream/2433... TL;DR: it's more likely it was just the result of a series of progressive compromises, as keyboards moved from telegraph to typewriting.
Aachen 3y ago
Agreed, the video is way too short (basically he gives the introduction and then thanks us for watching?!) and doesn't answer the question. The HN comment thread is interesting but the video leaves the viewer sitting with a finger half raised at the screen going "I still have questions"

StrangeATractor 3y ago

...because it breaks vi.

deleted 3y ago

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esotericimpl 3y ago

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Andrew_nenakhov 3y ago

I'm a Dvorak user myself since ~2006, and it is good. The main benefit is not the speed, but much less fatigue from typing: you move your fingers far less. This does come at a cost: hotkeys are usually a mess, especially if you have a second language layout (Cyrillic in my case), sometimes working differently dependent on layout, and hotkeys positions are typically optimised for QWERTY. Interestingly, all Dvorak advantages on regular keyboard become severe disadvantages on smartphones: Dvorak is optimised for alternating hands while typing as much as possible, but when you type with one thumb, you constantly need to move your finger from one side of a keyboard to another. One could probably come with a screen keyboard layout optimized to type with one finger, but I'm yet to see such keyboard.

lbourdages 3y ago
OSX has a Dvorak-Qwerty-⌘ layout where commands use the Qwerty letters so people switching can keep their muscle memory. It helped when I tried to learn, but I abandoned because I felt like the effort wasn't worth it. I already type fast enough for my needs.
- Andrew_nenakhov 3y ago
  I actually tried that and it's very confusing, because now no keys are corresponding to new positions of English letters. I ended up creating my own Dvorak and Cyrillic layouts, so that Cyrillic layout has hotkeys on their Dvorak positions (in most apps, but not all), and Dvorak layout has some keys like -,= on the same positions as ЙЦУКЕН Cyrillic layout. Still, I didn't yet find a way to make this layout default for a system: macOS refuses to use one of these on lock screen to enter password, but that's a minor inconvenience.
kenhwang 3y ago
I switch between Dvorak and QWERTY on my computer keyboards primarily because of the shortcuts being a mess. But since I only exclusively type with two thumbs on my phone, Dvorak is noticeably faster than QWERTY.
- 3y ago

kazinator 3y ago

Could one reason that Dvorak didn't catch on is that its established rival, QWERTY, was not randomly designed? QWERTY supposedly helps to reduce jams. Dvorak was introduced at a time in which that was still a problem, before electric typewriters. If Dvorak didn't actually produce its speed advantages on a classic, mechanical typewriter in which a semicircular gallery of arms concentrate their strikes on the same tiny location on the ink ribbon, typists trying Dvorak would have found that Dvorak's claims don't actually hold up.

mgreenw 3y ago

I wrote a blog post about my experience with Dvorak! TL;DR It's great, but if you're interested you should use Colemak. Once you switch you won't go back. https://maxgreenwald.me/blog/switching-to-dvorak https://maxgreenwald.me/blog/switching-to-dvorak

osbert 3y ago

I built a simulator to allow you to experience what it is like to type in Dvorak before committing to learn the layout. It assumes that you can touch-type in QWERTY. Enter some text into the first text box, and it gives you the equivalent keypresses to make [in QWERTY] that would output the same sentence in Dvorak. https://dvorak.iterinc.com/ https://dvorak.iterinc.com/ https://github.com/osbert/dv-sim2 https://github.com/osbert/dv-sim2 A former colleague of mine graciously contributed Colemak as an option as well.

barroomhero 3y ago
This is great! Also seems like a simple code engine. Kjg; g; uodak! Ap;s ;ddm; pgvd a ;gmrpd ishd dluglde
- Aachen 3y ago
  That's called a substitution cipher and can be defeated by hand by using frequency analysis, in case anyone wanted to know that. Please don't call the party pooper police!

agnosticmantis 3y ago

I wonder if a keyboard optimized for typists (typing in English with the most common word being ‘the’) is also optimal for programmers (writing code in say Python, with the most commonly used word likely being ‘def’ or ‘if’). The statistics of the two corpora should be different.

Aachen 3y ago
I expect there'll be a difference in which layout is optimal when analysing an average python code base with names (variables, functions, etc.) in your language versus regular text in that language, but honestly this is not where typing holds me back. Very rarely do I max out on typing speed for just a few minutes when coding something greenfield. Even if we're talking comfort rather than speed, you'd probably get 99% of the way by laying out symbols differently and leaving the letters and digits untouched.
- agnosticmantis 3y ago
  Agreed on optimal with respect to either task will be much better than QWERTY overall.

the__alchemist 3y ago

IMO not worth it when switching between personal and shared computers, OS shortcuts like copy/paste, or when executing programs that code the raw key inputs vice characters, like games. Juice was not worth squeeze for me.

maximilianroos 3y ago

Ironically Qwerty is extremely well-designed for typing on a touchscreen phone. Dvorak was designed to have common characters on home keys and common character sequences alternate between each hand. That's great on a keyboard with 4 fingers on each hand. On a touch screen, that's really bad! Characters close together complicate touchscreen recognition - is it "poet", "peet", or "pout"? And consecutive characters on opposite sides of the keyboard creates lots of movement for a single thumb. Instead, Qwerty has common characters spread out across the keyboard, and many common character sequences close together (e.g. "-ed", "tion"). Which is exactly the pattern that is fast & accurate on a touchscreen.

xx__yy 3y ago
I've had the on-screen keyboard on my phone set to Dvorak for > 5 years, and I just can't switch back to Qwerty. I think it's quite good for the phone.

nayuki 3y ago

I documented my Dvorak experience in an FAQ. https://www.nayuki.io/page/i-type-in-dvorak https://www.nayuki.io/page/i-type-in-dvorak

euroderf 3y ago

Obv it would be helpful/nice/cool to have reconfigurable keycaps, where the keycap's legend (LED-enhanced) could display whatever character you choose. Each key glowing in conformance with your current keyboard layout of choice. The last time I searched around for something like this, all I could find was some guy in Russia who had hacked up a positively brilliant-looking homebrew keyboard.

amenghra 3y ago
Never used it, but there's https://www.nemeio.com/ https://www.nemeio.com/ With the right software, you could even "improve" the layout on a daily basis based on the most used keys the previous day.
- euroderf 3y ago
  Looks sleek! No pricing. Sign me up anyways. Ready for APL, music, IPA, Linear B, ...

explorigin 3y ago

Workman user checking in. Every positive thing about dvorak is also true for workman plus you get easy control keys and easier learning from qwerty.

milohax 3y ago

I learnt Dvorak in 2 weeks and got back to my hunt-and-peck QWERTY speed within a month, within 2 I was typing 60-70WPM without effort, and about 90% accuracy. I did this with no formal training and my only motivation was that at that time I couldn't afford an "ergonomic keyboard" and had heard that Dvorak was better, so I gave it a try. It's also an ANSI standard so I didn't have to install any weird software, just choose it in the operating system settings. I no longer have shooting pains up my arms. Whether that's a result of the ergonomics of Dvorak, or simply that I can touch type, is not something I'm qualified to answer, but what I can say is that: - Dvorak is easy to learn - only takes mild motivation to get good at - is more comfortable which leads to better typing habits that are good for you physically and make you a faster typist than hunt-and-peck, with less effort than learning to touch type on QWERTY. Would I learn Dvorak these days over another layout like Colemak or whatever is the favorite today? Yes, I would, because it's a standard. I think we're at diminishing returns (for English) so it doesn't really matter: anything is better than QWERTY, even ABCDE...

Slackwise 3y ago

So, why not a steno keyboard instead? While DVORAK may only be a 5% improvement over QWERTY, a steno keyboard is vastly superior in typing speed and ergonomics, as it's used by courtroom stenographers keeping up with recording speech. (And if you learn on a proper steno keyboard, your muscle memory won't get all confused because the keys are entirely different.)

felix318 3y ago

Somewhat unrelated: shouldn’t it be pronounced “Dvorjak”? That is how the other famous Dvorak (Czech composer) is pronounced.

BrotherBisquick 3y ago

I could never get past the idea of a key sending a different keystroke than the one printed on it. Yes, I know you're not supposed to look at the keyboard as you type. And I don't. But I still don't like it. It sets off "this is dumb" alarm bells in my head. And because it's impossible to replace every keyboard I own or use, or physically rearrange their keys from QWERTY to Dvorak/Colemak, i'm stuck with QWERTY.

euroderf 3y ago
I'm thinking, just tape a few DIY legends onto a few key keys (heh) and then glance at a paper cheat sheet for the rest. Repeat as necessary.

strus 3y ago

I’ve tried Dvorak and Colemak but went back to QWERTY. Whole software world is developed with QWERTY in mind, and it was too much PITA. Split keyboard (especially with ortholinear, column staggered layout) will give you much more benefit than any alternative layout - and will be much easier to switch too.