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The Nova Kakhovka Hydroelectric dam in Ukraine has been blown open

286 points by dralley 3y ago

dsab 3y ago
Its yet another russian war crime during Ukraine invasion
- 2-718-281-828 3y ago
  how? if it's a war then isn't it legitimate to destroy energy sources?
  - dralley 3y ago
    Not by flooding tens of thousands of people out of their homes and wrecking the local ecology
  - esarbe 3y ago
    Destroying dams is explicitly a war crime.
    - 2-718-281-828 3y ago
      wanted to take you up on the "explicitly" then just googled it myself. in deed the additional protocol i of the geneva convention has something explicit to say about dams. ---- "[...] the Nova Kakhovka dam has been earmarked as a potential target for [...] its strategic importance" "Its destruction would have a number of significant repercussions [...] for Ukraine’s wider war effort." https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/06/nova-kakhovka-dam-everything-you-need-to-know-about-ukraines-strategically-important-reservoir https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/06/nova-kakhovka-... -- "2. The special protection against attack provided for in paragraph 1 shall cease: (a) for a dam or a dyke only if it is used for other than its normal function and in regular, significant and direct support of military operations and if such attack is the only feasible way to terminate such support;" https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v2/rule42 https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v2/rule42 ---- don't know whether or not this constraint applies. i'm anyway not really intending to justify this or russia's attack on ukraine in general. just don't like pointing out cruelty in wars as if it's a surprise this is happening. war is about killing more soldiers than your opponent and there never was a war not impacting civilians. many people seem to think: "i'm against war except if it's fought fair and without killing children, elderly, women, handicapped people and civilians in general."
      - esarbe 3y ago
        I don't think that this constrain applies. The dam was part of the Russia-occupied territory or part of the gray zone. Ukraine was not using the damn dam for anything. At this point I'm not willing to give Russia the benefit of the doubt anymore. Their leadership has more than sufficiently demonstrated that they consider atrocities and crimes of war as part of the toolbox, so to say.
        2-718-281-828 3y ago
        doesn't this make it more plausible that ukraine blew it up?
        esarbe 3y ago
        The dam was under Russian control. Ukraine wouldn't have had any opportunity to place demolition charges. Russia has demonstrated that it is; - willing to level cities with hundreds of thousands of inhabitants - willing to use torture, abduction, rape as systematic weapons of war - willing to indiscriminately attack civilians - willing to use banned weapons of war Despite war crimes obviously (d'oh) happening on both sides of the conflict, the Russian leadership has made it evidently clear that is more than happy to unleash any amount of terror, pain, misery and suffering to get what it wants. The Russian leadership is perfectly a-ok to systematically use all of the aforementioned as weapons. I've not seen this callousness from the Ukrainian leadership.
  - drumttocs8 3y ago
    All is not fair in love and war. See: Geneva Conventions.
dralley 3y ago
Reuters: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/nova-kakhovka-dam-kherson-region-blown-up-by-russian-forces-ukraines-military-2023-06-06/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/nova-kakhovka-dam-khers... Simulation of worst-case scenarios: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tRYWbVD5AE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tRYWbVD5AE The Russian State News agency claims that the dam "collapsed due to damage" https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1665929603251068928?s=20 https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/166592960325106892... Ukraine says it was destroyed by the Russian military. Google maps: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Kakhovka+Hydroelectric+Power+Plant+351MW/@46.9944585,33.0453806,9z/data=!4m6!3m5!1s0x40c3854022407b99:0x8b499c66946348c!8m2!3d46.774826!4d33.3718376!16s%2Fm%2F0_vbknx?entry=ttu https://www.google.com/maps/place/Kakhovka+Hydroelectric+Pow... Update - high quality video of the breach: https://twitter.com/AricToler/status/1665935477671690240/mediaviewer https://twitter.com/AricToler/status/1665935477671690240/med...
- daemoens 3y ago
  Remove the /mediaviewer from your final link, it's currently saying the tweet doesn't exist with /mediaviewer.
- vlovich123 3y ago
  “Collapsed due to damage“. Looks pretty clearly like an explosion. Russian state news agency. The fine folks that bring news reports like “local nerd found hitting himself by school bully”
  - boeingUH60 3y ago
    Well, explosive damage..
  - TeMPOraL 3y ago
    Interesting follow-up by the same poster here, quoting WaPo tweeting some Maxar photos, showing that the dam seems to have suffered some damage in the past week - adding credence to the possibility that it did, in fact, "collapsed due to damage", without either side specifically pulling the trigger today. https://twitter.com/AricToler/status/1665937030222692352 https://twitter.com/AricToler/status/1665937030222692352 But that brings up the question, what was happening there in the week prior? Was there any active fighting in the area?
dralley 3y ago
Dang, https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1665907948986458113 https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/166590794898645811... is a more informative thread
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- nixass 3y ago
  There are probably dozens of better sources online on this particular topic than OP's. I don't understand people "Danging" in threads
  - dralley 3y ago
    I am op
    - cwillu 3y ago
      Email hn@ycombinator.com; dang has said elsewhere that he doesn't monitor comments for @dang.
hackandthink 3y ago
Is this a deliberate flooding to stop troops? Like the dutch did: https://neverwasmag.com/2016/07/how-the-dutch-would-flood-their-country-to-stop-invaders/ https://neverwasmag.com/2016/07/how-the-dutch-would-flood-th...
- baybal2 3y ago
  No, it's a scorched earth tactic, in preparation to abandoning Crimea. Without this dam, Crimea will be without water for at least next 3 to 5 years after Ukraine recaptures it.
  - UberFly 3y ago
    This is actually correct, at least the effect it will have on Crimea's water supply.
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    If you have a credible source that goes into detail on that, I'd appreciate it.
    - mantas 3y ago
      There's no significant drinking water source in Crimea. And this was the dam directing water to Crimean water channel. Not sure what other credible source you may want.
      - dmix 3y ago
        The next question is how long would it take to repair if it does slow down / reroute the counter offensive? There's lots of evidence it harms Russian troop build ups in the region but only if they plan on abandoning the southern Kherson region and don't have any plans beyond that.
      - wolverine876 3y ago
        > Not sure what other credible source you may want. I'm a little confused: You did not provide any source. You're not obligated to provide any, but I don't understand your comment.
taacc3 3y ago
Sad how much destruction war brings.
- koiueo 3y ago
  Not war, russia brings
- lawn 3y ago
  Sad how a genocidal terrorist state can still exist in this day and age.
  - holoduke 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - lawn 3y ago
      I indeed see nothing good with genocide.
    - kaba0 3y ago
      There is absolutely zero “good” reason why Russia attacked a sovereign state, there is not many black and white things, but it is as clear as it gets.
    - dgudkov 3y ago
      This type of view pretends to be smart, but only until you personally get robbed or mistreated. Then such people quickly learn that sometimes there's black and white. Seen many times.
    - skjoldr 3y ago
      Vladimir Vladimirovich is going to be remembered as the next Adolf Stalin and for a good reason. Post-1945 world is not magically immune to the emergence of such people in power. Grey morality, especially with regards to genocidal dictators, is a myth that the West fell into because Germany had to be quickly whitewashed into being a NATO ally. Hence the "clean Wehrmacht" myth, the Rommel myth, and more. Now this cognitive distortion plays out with regards to Russia and their crimes, "oh they can't be completely evil, nobody can be completely evil anymore", when that is just a myth. Sometimes we can see the same distortion with regards to China, too.
purpleidea 3y ago
Nothing good will come of this for anyone.
tivert 3y ago
So: 1. What side does this help? 2. How does this action help that side?
- deanCommie 3y ago
  Benefits the Russians who have been dealing with a Ukranian counter-offensive, and commentators have been wondering if Ukraine would attempt to cross the Dnipro and mount a counter-offensive to cut Crimea off from the mainland. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tRYWbVD5AE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tRYWbVD5AE is a great visualization of why that task is basically impossible now.
  - nate_meurer 3y ago
    Scorched earth retreats are also a time-honored Soviet and Russian military strategy.
    - wolverine876 3y ago
      I'd love to read an expert source on that, if you have one.
      - orbital-decay 3y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_of_Moscow_(1812) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_of_Moscow_(1812)
      - stargazer-3 3y ago
        A dam on the same river was blown up by retreating Soviet troops in WW2: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/nov/02/second-world-war-dnieper-dam-blown-up-by-russians-1941 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/nov/02/second-world-w...
        wolverine876 3y ago
        Interesting, thanks, though only one incident. Do you know any sources on Russian military strategy?
deanCommie 3y ago
I'm not a military expert, but it seems like this will benefit the Russians, who will now have time to reinforce and strengthen their positions in Kherson Oblast on the south side of the Dnipro River at a time when Ukraine has been gaining momentum, and possibly considering crossing for a counter-offensive. From a purely positional perspective, this is a big advantage for the Russians, who benefit from a more prolonged conflict because they have more people, and need more time to resupply their logistics. Not great.
- somedude895 3y ago
  I'm not sure Ukraine ever planned a large-scale crossing of the Dnipro from Kherson. Certainly not for the main thrust of the counter offensive.
  - The_Colonel 3y ago
    Ukraine needed to present a credible threat to cross there to pin Russian forces in the area. Now that it's basically impossible to cross the river, Russia can redeploy the majority of the forces to other areas.
    - somedude895 3y ago
      Was it ever feasible for them to cross the Dnipro with heavy equipment though? It already seemed too wide for pontoon bridges?
      - The_Colonel 3y ago
        Last fall, Russians have built and used several pontoon bridges over Dnipro for a few weeks, as they defended Kherson city and the Antonovskij bridge was rendered unusuable by HIMARS strikes.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
perihelions 3y ago
This article currently has much more information (as of the time of posting) https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/jun/06/russia-ukraine-war-live-dam-near-kherson-blown-up-by-russian-forces-ukrainian-military-says https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/jun/06/russia-uk... ("Russia-Ukraine war live: dam near Kherson destroyed by Russian forces, says Ukraine, sparking evacuations")
- dehrmann 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - wesleywt 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - bjoli 3y ago
      Someone provided confirmed russian defensive positions along Dniepr. Unless the Russians moved out before the Ukrainians would have at least a reason to destroy the dam. They have, however, avoided civilian casualties, and looking at the map this would have been a deviation from that. It would fit the russian MO better
      - jononor 3y ago
        What are you saying could be a reason for Ukraine to do this? The flooding is probably not fast enough to trap/kill soldiers at those positions. And while those defensive positions will be "destroyed", they are replaced kilometers of marshlands, which is a superior defense, at least in the coming months. It can be held with much fewer people, shortening the effective length of the front, and freeing up soldiers to be used elsewhere. Massive gain for Russia, unfortunately. Likely nothing positive for Ukraine, unless they have something _incredibly_ creative going on.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
perihelions 3y ago
Looks historically unprecedented (?). This is a run-of-the-river type dam (relatively small elevation drop between upstream and downstream), but one with an enormous reservoir, with a volume (1.8e10 m³ nominal) larger than e.g. Banqiao (4.9e8 m³) or Mosul (1.1e10 m³). It is/was #48 on Wikipedia's ranking of world's largest water reservoirs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kakhovka_Hydroelectric_Power_Plant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kakhovka_Hydroelectric_Power_P... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banqiao_Dam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banqiao_Dam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosul_Dam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosul_Dam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_reservoirs_by_volume https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_reservoirs_by_volume
- valeg 3y ago
  unfortunately, no https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/nov/02/second-world-war-dnieper-dam-blown-up-by-russians-1941 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/nov/02/second-world-w...
  - dogma1138 3y ago
    I think they meant the size of the res. During WW2 blowing up dams did happen https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Chastise https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Chastise
- p3rls 3y ago
  Both dams and human conflict are pretty ancient. China alone has like 10 stories in their historical record like this.
  - fakedang 3y ago
    China blew up so many dams in WW2 to stop the Japanese. In the end, they didn't even slow them much, but killed 300k Chinese civilians.
- consp 3y ago
  Looking at the innundation by blowing up the dikes in ww2 near my birth city it's not unprecedented but now definately a war crime (which the allies did btw). The reservoir here was the North Sea.
edrxty 3y ago
The terrain is higher on the NW side... This seems like a really strange move given their defensive positions. (old link with color topo and some color commentary) https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/yansa7/repost_pov_col_kleptopsky_gives_the_order_to_blow/ https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/yansa7/...
- antupis 3y ago
  Ukraine just started counterattack so this effectively blocks attack through Kherson region.
  - edrxty 3y ago
    Following some of the threads, there's satellite evidence it may have just failed for mechanical reasons. If this was unintentional and they didn't abandon those positions downstream they're in for a bad time.
    - dmix 3y ago
      The fact it's timed with the first day of the counter offensive and it's been long discussed as a very likely target for Russia that would be one hell of a coincidence.
      - edrxty 3y ago
        Yeah it's a bit of a weird one. https://twitter.com/evanhill/status/1665915785707921408?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1665915785707921408%7Ctwgr%5E7a493051d37c7243ef5ac9514b7b4893228e90d5%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fworld%2Flive%2F2023%2Fjun%2F06%2Frussia-ukraine-war-live-dam-near-kherson-blown-up-by-russian-forces-ukrainian-military-says https://twitter.com/evanhill/status/1665915785707921408?ref_... Looks like the dam had been running extremely high so there's cause beyond just random chance, but even that high level could have been deliberate.
        3y ago
MichaelMoser123 3y ago
The effect/kinetic energy of the water involved would be comparable to that released by a nuclear explosion. Total madness. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/06/nova-kakhovka-dam-everything-you-need-to-know-about-ukraines-strategically-important-reservoir https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/06/nova-kakhovka-... "The reservoir it contains holds an estimated 18 cubic kilometres of water, about the same volume as the Great Salt Lake in Utah. Bursting the dam could send a wall of water flooding settlements below it, including Kherson, which Ukrainian forces recaptured in late 2022" In 1941 the retreating Red Army blew a different dam, the Dnieper/Dnipro dam, up to a hundred thousand people died on that occasion... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dnieper_Hydroelectric_Station#World_War_II_and_post-war_reconstruction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dnieper_Hydroelectric_Station#...
- KeplerBoy 3y ago
  The energy will be released over a long time though. Nevertheless, every structure downstream will end up in the black sea.
- bouncycastle 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - MichaelMoser123 3y ago
    that one is 150 million kilometers away, and we have an atmosphere for our protection.
    - bouncycastle 3y ago
      Yet, you cannot look at it with the naked eye for more than a second & it scorches large areas of Earth leaving only dry desert sand.
      - defrost 3y ago
        There's an oversimplification. Entire bands of the earths surface receive the same amount of sunlight per square metre for similar amounts of average time per day. Only some of these regions are left with only dry desert sand. There might be more to this than simple hours per day of sunlight, topography for one factor.
wolverine876 3y ago
Better OP: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/06/06/russia-ukraine-war-news-dam/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/06/06/russia-ukrai...
psychphysic 3y ago
Did Ukraine just wipe out majority of Russian defences? That could go down in history as one of the boldest moves ever.
- Scarblac 3y ago
  Russia was in control of the dam, had mined it, and had in recent weeks let water levels go up to unprecedented levels. Something like 80 settlements will be completely inundated, the largest nuclear power plant in Europe loses its cooling reservoir and attacks over the river will be impossible for weeks. I don't think Ukraine did it. (getting information from the thread in /r/worldnews).
  - psychphysic 3y ago
    If it wiped away defences it'd be more than worth it and Ukraine is now more than capable with its Shadow Storm missiles which UK provided just for this kind of attack. It's a very bold move and if intentional it could be pivotal in this conflict.
    - dralley 3y ago
      It doesn't matter if the defenses are wiped out, if you cannot cross to reach those defenses. The terrain and roads will be wrecked and everything will be a muddy mess for miles.
      - psychphysic 3y ago
        Whoever knew this would happen (i.e. planned it) stands to gain massively in strategic terms. That's the case no matter if it was Russia or Ukraine so long as it went to plan.
    - sgc 3y ago
      It is an act of mass destruction and a war crime, that Ukraine was very worried about for some time since it will kill many innocent people. Very, very unlikely they did it. My first bet would be the dam failed from russian negligence / mismanagement, second the russians blew it up. But there will certainly be video of what happened today soon.
bullen 3y ago
I we focus on the largest nuclear power plant in Europe for a minute. Are all reactors completely shut off? Is there any danger of meltdown?
- jnsaff2 3y ago
  Reactors have been shut down for about half a year. So the hard part is over but they still need quite a bit of water.
  - jnsaff2 3y ago
    More info: > "Water from the Kakhovsky Reservoir is necessary for the station to receive power for turbine capacitors and safety systems of the ZNPP. The station's cooling pond is now full: as of 8:00 a.m., the water level is 16.6 meters, which is sufficient for the station's needs." Source: https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1665959896481685507 https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/166595989648168550...
- perihelions 3y ago
  Of course it's totally unsafe: it's in a war zone. It's on the current, active front line of a warzone. If this dam collapse doesn't cause a catastrophic spent fuel nuclear disaster in the next few hours, there's still imminent danger of that from any number of different causes – most visibly, military actions occurring right next to (or inside of!) the power plant. The IAEA messaging has been extremely shrill about this for like a continuous year, and no one listens. e.g. - "After nearly nine months of failed efforts to forge an agreement between Ukraine and Russia to establish a protection zone around the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant (ZNPP), Rafael Mariano Grossi, the head of the International Atomic Energy Agency, is now pushing for a new proposal to reduce the possibility of a catastrophic nuclear disaster." https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/05/22/ukraine-zaporizhzhia-nuclear-plant-grossi/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/05/22/ukraine-zapo... (May 22) and - "Ukraine’s Zaporizhzhya Nuclear Power Plant (ZNPP) has been without external back-up power for three months now, leaving it extremely vulnerable in case the sole functioning main power line goes down again" https://www.iaea.org/newscenter/pressreleases/update-160-iaea-director-general-statement-on-situation-in-ukraine https://www.iaea.org/newscenter/pressreleases/update-160-iae... (June 2)
marius321967 3y ago
[flagged]
- fit2rule 3y ago
  [dead]
- dehrmann 3y ago
  > either There are more than two groups who could have done this. The Wagner Group could have done it independently. Ukrainians or Russians could have done it thinking it advances their goals. Who it benefits, hurts, and who could have done it is messy.
  - csomar 3y ago
    You know it could have also been damaged by the war or it needed some maintenance and then it simply blew up open. No one knows who did this but it is really beyond the point now. There is a war going on and pointing fingers only make peace harder to achieve.
- csomar 3y ago
  Based on this logic, it should be the USA who committed this act since it's the only country which used nuclear weapons.
- dtx1 3y ago
  > Meanwhile you're sitting in your comfy chairs asking for 'credible sources' and wondering which side this benefits more. But it's precisely because we're sitting in a comfy chair that we have to ask for credible sources. "Fog of War" is a real thing and disinformation campaigns have been integral to this war. Most people here couldn't pinpoint this dam on a map and it's not immediately obvious that this isn't some tactical decision by ukraine to advance their counter operation. To you it might be obvious that this is part of russias illegal war, to me it's not and i'd rather wait a few days until things clear up instead of rushing to judgement without understanding it.
  - 3y ago
photochemsyn 3y ago
A propaganda war where nobody anything says can be believed about anything anyone says and the video from both sides is AI-manipulated and only 'embedded' reporting is allowed and then only from 'yellow' zones. Rather sad, isn't it, the extent to which manipulative propaganda has become the daily fare?
- lawn 3y ago
  What's sad is enforcing the idea that all sides use propaganda, so therefore they're all equally believable.
  - somedude895 3y ago
    > all sides use propaganda All sides do use propaganda, but the idea that Western media is equal to Russian media in how much they lie in this war is definitely a ridiculous take.
  - bearmode 3y ago
    If you don't think all sides use propaganda, you've clearly fallen for the propaganda of whatever side you think doesn't use it.
    - lawn 3y ago
      Wasn't my comment clear? I said that both sides use propaganda, but one side is still (much) more believable.
simion314 3y ago
If I were in charge I would blowup a similar dam in Ruzzia. Let the bastards know that there ill be consequences for this war crimes.
- deadbolt 3y ago
  Glad you're not in charge. Maybe you feel cool saying you'd ok an operation which would result in the deaths of more innocents, but that's an abhorrent position.
  - simion314 3y ago
    And if your enemy does not have same morals? You allow them to destroy your hospitals, electric power plants, dams, your nuclear power and you keep your moral superiority? Say some piece of shit country would drop nuclear bombs on a city full of civilians, and I should not do the same back because for morality? Will not that encourage that evil country t drop more nuclear bombs? What is your opinion then, if you are losing a way with an enemy that plays dirty you give up and accept your annihilation? Your children will be brainwashed by the enemy and send t fight more evil wars.
    - BasedAnon 3y ago
      [flagged]
throwaway738585 3y ago
Note that it is the second time the dam is destroyed here. During WW2 soviets exploded the dam upstream (Zaporizhzhya dam) perishing ~100k civilians and their own military.
breput 3y ago
Edit: sorry, it is definitely not the same dam, as seen by comparing it to https://twitter.com/igorsushko/status/1665907533469581313 https://twitter.com/igorsushko/status/1665907533469581313 (NOT) Video of the actual explosion: https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1665954209156460544/pu/vid/432x320/BWpzpFFYOyYiw4Ne.mp4?tag=12 https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1665954209156460544/pu/...
- valeg 3y ago
  This is an old video from November last year (when ruscists retreated from Kherson).
  - londons_explore 3y ago
    Posting a video that is old and not related, yet plausibly attached to a news campaign is a classic information warfare tactic. Makes you wonder where the initial news source was from...?
- perihelions 3y ago
  - "it is definitely not the same dam" It actually *is* the same dam — though a different incident from 2022. -"Footage verified by the BBC shows the moment a huge explosion rocks Ukraine's Nova Kakhovka dam, near Kherson." https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-63607625 https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-63607625 (12 November 2022)
wiseowise 3y ago
https://t.me/jurnko/7938 https://t.me/jurnko/7938 [Ukrainian language] Here’s a post from Kherson journalist with breakdown of Russian propagandist reactions to the situation for those who still think it’s not Russian orchestrated explosion.
cwillu 3y ago
Worth noting that this may still turn out to be accidental, in the sense that all the bombing activity around it triggered sufficient cracking in the wrong places that the normal forces (made worse by high water levels) caused a failure. To be clear, I'm not saying that this wasn't a strike, or a demolition, just that it could be an unintended failure caused by precision strikes performed on targets very near to the dam. “That latter point means that, like all concrete structures, concrete dams will crack. These cracks will be tend to be vertical, since the concrete is free to grow and shrink in the vertical dimension, while the canyon it spans is of a fixed dimension. While an arch dam will have the pressure of the water pushing these vertical cracks closed, a gravity dam has no forces acting along its axis--well, except for the temperature changes. The easiest way to deal with this is to provide a known place for the concrete to crack. Therefore, the dam is divided into monoliths, where each monolith is a separately-placed block of concrete that is more or less structurally independent of the monoliths next to it. The dividing lines between monoliths are contraction joints, and will open and close with temperature changes, sometimes quite dramatically. This is the same reason sidewalks are cut into squares and concrete highways have the joints that go "ba-dump" as you drive over them--the concrete will crack, so provide a way to make it crack in a controlled, pretty manner. [...] This will hold true for all of the concrete, but once you get to the foundation, it gets a bit tricker. The soil is not a relatively well-controlled material like the concrete. It's typically full of joints and is permeable. At the base of the dam, it's typical to assume that the full pressure of the forebay is acting at the heel and the pressure of the tailwater is acting at the toe. The total force acting upwards is typically pretty large, which is a problem: this pressure will reduce the forces acting on the foundation, and therefore the force squeezing any joints in the rock. If you remember from high school physics, it's typically assumed that frictional forces are proportional to the force squeezing two surfaces together. Therefore, this uplift pressure can reduce these forces enough that a wedge of foundation rock will slide with the dam in a foundation failure. This is the typical cause of failure in a large gravity dam. I've shown with a dashed line what that uplift pressure would look like under the monolith, if we let it reach its natural state. However, we have some tricks that we can use to dramatically reduce this uplift pressure. I've drawn a grout curtain and foundation drains extending from the bottom of the dam. The grout curtain is a "wall" of portland cement grout, formed by drilling through the bottom of the dam from the drainage gallery and injecting the grout under pressure. It's typically much deeper than I've shown here, as I ran out of room on the paper. This curtain will increase the path length for flow lines, which will primarily serve to reduce the volume of water flowing under the dam. ” -- “Effort Post: Concrete Gravity Dam” https://www.datasecretslox.com/index.php/topic,215.msg3582.h https://www.datasecretslox.com/index.php/topic,215.msg3582.h... (see also parts II and III at https://www.datasecretslox.com/index.php/topic,1012.msg19813 https://www.datasecretslox.com/index.php/topic,1012.msg19813... and https://www.datasecretslox.com/index.php/topic,1359.msg31228 https://www.datasecretslox.com/index.php/topic,1359.msg31228...)
_kbh_ 3y ago
This attack is a flagrant violation of the Geneva convention and a war crime. Russia must be punished for doing this or allowing it to happen.
- nikanj 3y ago
  But punishing russia is bad for the economy so EU will issue very strongly worded press releases instead
  - BasedAnon 3y ago
    *punishing russia is a threat to your own citizenry which relies on the economy to feed their families. The economy isn't some alien abstract entity.
- martindbp 3y ago
  More weapons and permission to strike military targets in Russia seems like a proportional response. Otherwise, what's the response for blowing up a nuclear power plant in the future? Slap on the fingers? Russia keeps escalating, it's clear now that this can only be allowed to end with the full defeat of the Russian military. Whether the dam was blown up or collapsed due to damage is just the difference between shooting someone and slowly poisoning them, it's still murder.
- BasedAnon 3y ago
  [flagged]
2-718-281-828 3y ago
if we're already at it - have you heard about the freedom of russia legion? allegedly russian citizens turning against their own government. everything i could gather about that group smells to high heaven and nobody questions that narrative. pro-ukrainian media basically just praises those selfless heroes for their action. but none of it makes any sense. neither psychologically, nor militarily, nor socially, nor politically - any theories on what's going on with that?
- polotics 3y ago
  Oh wow how did you manage to get good sources about the state of the CIS's psychology, society, or for that matter military? Do you have access to FSB's secret polls? How does polling work if the wrong answer gets you 15 years in a penal colony?
kuboris 3y ago
The destruction of the Nova Kakhovka dam by Russians follows almost exactly all the other heinous crimes Russians have committed: 1. Execute the crime 2. Laugh and brag 3. Realize the catastrophe 4. Change the story and blame others https://twitter.com/Tendar/status/1666033978841636866 https://twitter.com/Tendar/status/1666033978841636866
skjoldr 3y ago
I want to remind everyone that the irrigation of the entire south Kherson oblast depended on the Crimean channel, providing around 17% of Ukraine's agricultural output, and the water supply to some of the largest cities in the area such as Kherson and Krivuy Rih was also dependent on that water reservoir. Not to mention the colossal flooding and displacement of tens of thousands of Ukrainian people. This act had ruined a chunk of Ukraine's future. It's extremely unlikely Ukraine had anything to do with it or anything to gain which would compensate the economic loss.
gomizari 3y ago
Ukrainians confessed multiple times they attacked it with HIMARSes: 1) https://www.bbc.com/russian/news-62533233 https://www.bbc.com/russian/news-62533233 2) https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/12/29/ukraine-offensive-kharkiv-kherson-donetsk/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/12/29/ukraine-offe... "Kovalchuk considered flooding the river. The Ukrainians, he said, even conducted a test strike with a HIMARS launcher on one of the floodgates at the Nova Kakhovka dam, making three holes in the metal to see if the Dnieper’s water could be raised enough to stymie Russian crossings but not flood nearby villages."
- _kbh_ 3y ago
  The Russians intentionally increased the water level of the dam to cause the most damage and then intentionally blew it up. At least two Russian soldiers have said they would blow the damn / they blew the dam and have admitted as much in camera. Russia was celebrating this before they realised it was a war crime then they went into their typical deny and deflect everything mode.
  - gomizari 3y ago
    It's probably another way around: Ukrainians intentionally increased the water level of the dam, since they control dams up the Dnieper river.
    - _kbh_ 3y ago
      Or you know since Ukraine doesn’t control the literal weather it would be hard to control the water level in a river. Russia controlled whether or not they opened the spill gates they didn’t and it is obviously an intentional build up to do as much damage a possible.
Chief180A 3y ago
It look like the most anticipated Ukrainian offensive had begun, but was blunted by the Russians After this occurred, it stands to reason that the Ukrainian government would like a reason for not losing any more men and material so why not blow up the dam and damage most of the defensive positions the Russians had prepared and give an excuse for not going on with the offensive. And of course ask for more money and weapons so who did this benefit and you don’t have to be a mental giant to figure out that this was more damaging to Russia and the Crimea than to Ukraine. And remember, we were all told that the Russia blew up its own pipe line in the North Sea as well, confirmed by US officials both military and state department, of course they would not lie to us again right? Look at the lay of the land and facts, the Crimean region relies on that water for agriculture and industrial/domestic water supplies much more than the Ukraine does. Think for yourselves and don’t be led around by politically motivated people.
Chief180A 3y ago
Think for yourselves look at facts Are there pictures of an explosion? Seems like there should be with all the satellites and drones in the area. The Crimea region depends much more on the water from that dam than the Ukraine does for agriculture and domestic water sources. Who lied to us about the Russian Pipe line being blown up saying Putin did it and now we know that the Ukraine did it of course with the knowledge and probable help of the US. Ukraine offensive had started and had been stopped.
- _kbh_ 3y ago
  > Think for yourselves look at facts Are there pictures of an explosion? Seems like there should be with all the satellites and drones in the area. Yes there is there’s even a video of it. > Ukraine offensive had started and had been stopped. The offensive hasn’t even started those tracts of land Russia is losing to Ukraine are from _probing attacks_.
KETpXDDzR 3y ago
Some russians bragged about putting explosives at the dam half a year ago: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=arUHJzXCfsU https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=arUHJzXCfsU

286 points by dralley 3y ago

dsab 3y ago

Its yet another russian war crime during Ukraine invasion

2-718-281-828 3y ago
how? if it's a war then isn't it legitimate to destroy energy sources?
- dralley 3y ago
  Not by flooding tens of thousands of people out of their homes and wrecking the local ecology
- esarbe 3y ago
  Destroying dams is explicitly a war crime.
  - 2-718-281-828 3y ago
    wanted to take you up on the "explicitly" then just googled it myself. in deed the additional protocol i of the geneva convention has something explicit to say about dams. ---- "[...] the Nova Kakhovka dam has been earmarked as a potential target for [...] its strategic importance" "Its destruction would have a number of significant repercussions [...] for Ukraine’s wider war effort." https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/06/nova-kakhovka-dam-everything-you-need-to-know-about-ukraines-strategically-important-reservoir https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/06/nova-kakhovka-... -- "2. The special protection against attack provided for in paragraph 1 shall cease: (a) for a dam or a dyke only if it is used for other than its normal function and in regular, significant and direct support of military operations and if such attack is the only feasible way to terminate such support;" https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v2/rule42 https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v2/rule42 ---- don't know whether or not this constraint applies. i'm anyway not really intending to justify this or russia's attack on ukraine in general. just don't like pointing out cruelty in wars as if it's a surprise this is happening. war is about killing more soldiers than your opponent and there never was a war not impacting civilians. many people seem to think: "i'm against war except if it's fought fair and without killing children, elderly, women, handicapped people and civilians in general."
    - esarbe 3y ago
      I don't think that this constrain applies. The dam was part of the Russia-occupied territory or part of the gray zone. Ukraine was not using the damn dam for anything. At this point I'm not willing to give Russia the benefit of the doubt anymore. Their leadership has more than sufficiently demonstrated that they consider atrocities and crimes of war as part of the toolbox, so to say.
      - 2-718-281-828 3y ago
        doesn't this make it more plausible that ukraine blew it up?
        esarbe 3y ago
        The dam was under Russian control. Ukraine wouldn't have had any opportunity to place demolition charges. Russia has demonstrated that it is; - willing to level cities with hundreds of thousands of inhabitants - willing to use torture, abduction, rape as systematic weapons of war - willing to indiscriminately attack civilians - willing to use banned weapons of war Despite war crimes obviously (d'oh) happening on both sides of the conflict, the Russian leadership has made it evidently clear that is more than happy to unleash any amount of terror, pain, misery and suffering to get what it wants. The Russian leadership is perfectly a-ok to systematically use all of the aforementioned as weapons. I've not seen this callousness from the Ukrainian leadership.
- drumttocs8 3y ago
  All is not fair in love and war. See: Geneva Conventions.

dralley 3y ago

Reuters: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/nova-kakhovka-dam-kherson-region-blown-up-by-russian-forces-ukraines-military-2023-06-06/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/nova-kakhovka-dam-khers... Simulation of worst-case scenarios: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tRYWbVD5AE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tRYWbVD5AE The Russian State News agency claims that the dam "collapsed due to damage" https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1665929603251068928?s=20 https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/166592960325106892... Ukraine says it was destroyed by the Russian military. Google maps: https://www.google.com/maps/place/Kakhovka+Hydroelectric+Power+Plant+351MW/@46.9944585,33.0453806,9z/data=!4m6!3m5!1s0x40c3854022407b99:0x8b499c66946348c!8m2!3d46.774826!4d33.3718376!16s%2Fm%2F0_vbknx?entry=ttu https://www.google.com/maps/place/Kakhovka+Hydroelectric+Pow... Update - high quality video of the breach: https://twitter.com/AricToler/status/1665935477671690240/mediaviewer https://twitter.com/AricToler/status/1665935477671690240/med...

daemoens 3y ago
Remove the /mediaviewer from your final link, it's currently saying the tweet doesn't exist with /mediaviewer.
vlovich123 3y ago
“Collapsed due to damage“. Looks pretty clearly like an explosion. Russian state news agency. The fine folks that bring news reports like “local nerd found hitting himself by school bully”
- boeingUH60 3y ago
  Well, explosive damage..
- TeMPOraL 3y ago
  Interesting follow-up by the same poster here, quoting WaPo tweeting some Maxar photos, showing that the dam seems to have suffered some damage in the past week - adding credence to the possibility that it did, in fact, "collapsed due to damage", without either side specifically pulling the trigger today. https://twitter.com/AricToler/status/1665937030222692352 https://twitter.com/AricToler/status/1665937030222692352 But that brings up the question, what was happening there in the week prior? Was there any active fighting in the area?

dralley 3y ago

Dang, https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1665907948986458113 https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/166590794898645811... is a more informative thread

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
nixass 3y ago
There are probably dozens of better sources online on this particular topic than OP's. I don't understand people "Danging" in threads
- dralley 3y ago
  I am op
  - cwillu 3y ago
    Email hn@ycombinator.com; dang has said elsewhere that he doesn't monitor comments for @dang.

hackandthink 3y ago

Is this a deliberate flooding to stop troops? Like the dutch did: https://neverwasmag.com/2016/07/how-the-dutch-would-flood-their-country-to-stop-invaders/ https://neverwasmag.com/2016/07/how-the-dutch-would-flood-th...

baybal2 3y ago
No, it's a scorched earth tactic, in preparation to abandoning Crimea. Without this dam, Crimea will be without water for at least next 3 to 5 years after Ukraine recaptures it.
- UberFly 3y ago
  This is actually correct, at least the effect it will have on Crimea's water supply.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  If you have a credible source that goes into detail on that, I'd appreciate it.
  - mantas 3y ago
    There's no significant drinking water source in Crimea. And this was the dam directing water to Crimean water channel. Not sure what other credible source you may want.
    - dmix 3y ago
      The next question is how long would it take to repair if it does slow down / reroute the counter offensive? There's lots of evidence it harms Russian troop build ups in the region but only if they plan on abandoning the southern Kherson region and don't have any plans beyond that.
    - wolverine876 3y ago
      > Not sure what other credible source you may want. I'm a little confused: You did not provide any source. You're not obligated to provide any, but I don't understand your comment.

taacc3 3y ago

Sad how much destruction war brings.

koiueo 3y ago
Not war, russia brings
lawn 3y ago
Sad how a genocidal terrorist state can still exist in this day and age.
- holoduke 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - lawn 3y ago
    I indeed see nothing good with genocide.
  - kaba0 3y ago
    There is absolutely zero “good” reason why Russia attacked a sovereign state, there is not many black and white things, but it is as clear as it gets.
  - dgudkov 3y ago
    This type of view pretends to be smart, but only until you personally get robbed or mistreated. Then such people quickly learn that sometimes there's black and white. Seen many times.
  - skjoldr 3y ago
    Vladimir Vladimirovich is going to be remembered as the next Adolf Stalin and for a good reason. Post-1945 world is not magically immune to the emergence of such people in power. Grey morality, especially with regards to genocidal dictators, is a myth that the West fell into because Germany had to be quickly whitewashed into being a NATO ally. Hence the "clean Wehrmacht" myth, the Rommel myth, and more. Now this cognitive distortion plays out with regards to Russia and their crimes, "oh they can't be completely evil, nobody can be completely evil anymore", when that is just a myth. Sometimes we can see the same distortion with regards to China, too.

purpleidea 3y ago

Nothing good will come of this for anyone.

tivert 3y ago

So: 1. What side does this help? 2. How does this action help that side?

deanCommie 3y ago
Benefits the Russians who have been dealing with a Ukranian counter-offensive, and commentators have been wondering if Ukraine would attempt to cross the Dnipro and mount a counter-offensive to cut Crimea off from the mainland. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tRYWbVD5AE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tRYWbVD5AE is a great visualization of why that task is basically impossible now.
- nate_meurer 3y ago
  Scorched earth retreats are also a time-honored Soviet and Russian military strategy.
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    I'd love to read an expert source on that, if you have one.
    - orbital-decay 3y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_of_Moscow_(1812) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_of_Moscow_(1812)
    - stargazer-3 3y ago
      A dam on the same river was blown up by retreating Soviet troops in WW2: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/nov/02/second-world-war-dnieper-dam-blown-up-by-russians-1941 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/nov/02/second-world-w...
      - wolverine876 3y ago
        Interesting, thanks, though only one incident. Do you know any sources on Russian military strategy?

deanCommie 3y ago

I'm not a military expert, but it seems like this will benefit the Russians, who will now have time to reinforce and strengthen their positions in Kherson Oblast on the south side of the Dnipro River at a time when Ukraine has been gaining momentum, and possibly considering crossing for a counter-offensive. From a purely positional perspective, this is a big advantage for the Russians, who benefit from a more prolonged conflict because they have more people, and need more time to resupply their logistics. Not great.

somedude895 3y ago
I'm not sure Ukraine ever planned a large-scale crossing of the Dnipro from Kherson. Certainly not for the main thrust of the counter offensive.
- The_Colonel 3y ago
  Ukraine needed to present a credible threat to cross there to pin Russian forces in the area. Now that it's basically impossible to cross the river, Russia can redeploy the majority of the forces to other areas.
  - somedude895 3y ago
    Was it ever feasible for them to cross the Dnipro with heavy equipment though? It already seemed too wide for pontoon bridges?
    - The_Colonel 3y ago
      Last fall, Russians have built and used several pontoon bridges over Dnipro for a few weeks, as they defended Kherson city and the Antonovskij bridge was rendered unusuable by HIMARS strikes.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

perihelions 3y ago

This article currently has much more information (as of the time of posting) https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/jun/06/russia-ukraine-war-live-dam-near-kherson-blown-up-by-russian-forces-ukrainian-military-says https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2023/jun/06/russia-uk... ("Russia-Ukraine war live: dam near Kherson destroyed by Russian forces, says Ukraine, sparking evacuations")

dehrmann 3y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- wesleywt 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - bjoli 3y ago
    Someone provided confirmed russian defensive positions along Dniepr. Unless the Russians moved out before the Ukrainians would have at least a reason to destroy the dam. They have, however, avoided civilian casualties, and looking at the map this would have been a deviation from that. It would fit the russian MO better
    - jononor 3y ago
      What are you saying could be a reason for Ukraine to do this? The flooding is probably not fast enough to trap/kill soldiers at those positions. And while those defensive positions will be "destroyed", they are replaced kilometers of marshlands, which is a superior defense, at least in the coming months. It can be held with much fewer people, shortening the effective length of the front, and freeing up soldiers to be used elsewhere. Massive gain for Russia, unfortunately. Likely nothing positive for Ukraine, unless they have something _incredibly_ creative going on.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

perihelions 3y ago

Looks historically unprecedented (?). This is a run-of-the-river type dam (relatively small elevation drop between upstream and downstream), but one with an enormous reservoir, with a volume (1.8e10 m³ nominal) larger than e.g. Banqiao (4.9e8 m³) or Mosul (1.1e10 m³). It is/was #48 on Wikipedia's ranking of world's largest water reservoirs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kakhovka_Hydroelectric_Power_Plant https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kakhovka_Hydroelectric_Power_P... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banqiao_Dam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banqiao_Dam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosul_Dam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosul_Dam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_reservoirs_by_volume https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_reservoirs_by_volume

valeg 3y ago
unfortunately, no https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/nov/02/second-world-war-dnieper-dam-blown-up-by-russians-1941 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/nov/02/second-world-w...
- dogma1138 3y ago
  I think they meant the size of the res. During WW2 blowing up dams did happen https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Chastise https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Chastise
p3rls 3y ago
Both dams and human conflict are pretty ancient. China alone has like 10 stories in their historical record like this.
- fakedang 3y ago
  China blew up so many dams in WW2 to stop the Japanese. In the end, they didn't even slow them much, but killed 300k Chinese civilians.
consp 3y ago
Looking at the innundation by blowing up the dikes in ww2 near my birth city it's not unprecedented but now definately a war crime (which the allies did btw). The reservoir here was the North Sea.

edrxty 3y ago

The terrain is higher on the NW side... This seems like a really strange move given their defensive positions. (old link with color topo and some color commentary) https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/yansa7/repost_pov_col_kleptopsky_gives_the_order_to_blow/ https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/yansa7/...

antupis 3y ago
Ukraine just started counterattack so this effectively blocks attack through Kherson region.
- edrxty 3y ago
  Following some of the threads, there's satellite evidence it may have just failed for mechanical reasons. If this was unintentional and they didn't abandon those positions downstream they're in for a bad time.
  - dmix 3y ago
    The fact it's timed with the first day of the counter offensive and it's been long discussed as a very likely target for Russia that would be one hell of a coincidence.
    - edrxty 3y ago
      Yeah it's a bit of a weird one. https://twitter.com/evanhill/status/1665915785707921408?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1665915785707921408%7Ctwgr%5E7a493051d37c7243ef5ac9514b7b4893228e90d5%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fworld%2Flive%2F2023%2Fjun%2F06%2Frussia-ukraine-war-live-dam-near-kherson-blown-up-by-russian-forces-ukrainian-military-says https://twitter.com/evanhill/status/1665915785707921408?ref_... Looks like the dam had been running extremely high so there's cause beyond just random chance, but even that high level could have been deliberate.
      - 3y ago

MichaelMoser123 3y ago

The effect/kinetic energy of the water involved would be comparable to that released by a nuclear explosion. Total madness. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/06/nova-kakhovka-dam-everything-you-need-to-know-about-ukraines-strategically-important-reservoir https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/06/nova-kakhovka-... "The reservoir it contains holds an estimated 18 cubic kilometres of water, about the same volume as the Great Salt Lake in Utah. Bursting the dam could send a wall of water flooding settlements below it, including Kherson, which Ukrainian forces recaptured in late 2022" In 1941 the retreating Red Army blew a different dam, the Dnieper/Dnipro dam, up to a hundred thousand people died on that occasion... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dnieper_Hydroelectric_Station#World_War_II_and_post-war_reconstruction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dnieper_Hydroelectric_Station#...

KeplerBoy 3y ago
The energy will be released over a long time though. Nevertheless, every structure downstream will end up in the black sea.
bouncycastle 3y ago
[flagged]
- MichaelMoser123 3y ago
  that one is 150 million kilometers away, and we have an atmosphere for our protection.
  - bouncycastle 3y ago
    Yet, you cannot look at it with the naked eye for more than a second & it scorches large areas of Earth leaving only dry desert sand.
    - defrost 3y ago
      There's an oversimplification. Entire bands of the earths surface receive the same amount of sunlight per square metre for similar amounts of average time per day. Only some of these regions are left with only dry desert sand. There might be more to this than simple hours per day of sunlight, topography for one factor.

wolverine876 3y ago

Better OP: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/06/06/russia-ukraine-war-news-dam/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/06/06/russia-ukrai...

psychphysic 3y ago

Did Ukraine just wipe out majority of Russian defences? That could go down in history as one of the boldest moves ever.

Scarblac 3y ago
Russia was in control of the dam, had mined it, and had in recent weeks let water levels go up to unprecedented levels. Something like 80 settlements will be completely inundated, the largest nuclear power plant in Europe loses its cooling reservoir and attacks over the river will be impossible for weeks. I don't think Ukraine did it. (getting information from the thread in /r/worldnews).
- psychphysic 3y ago
  If it wiped away defences it'd be more than worth it and Ukraine is now more than capable with its Shadow Storm missiles which UK provided just for this kind of attack. It's a very bold move and if intentional it could be pivotal in this conflict.
  - dralley 3y ago
    It doesn't matter if the defenses are wiped out, if you cannot cross to reach those defenses. The terrain and roads will be wrecked and everything will be a muddy mess for miles.
    - psychphysic 3y ago
      Whoever knew this would happen (i.e. planned it) stands to gain massively in strategic terms. That's the case no matter if it was Russia or Ukraine so long as it went to plan.
  - sgc 3y ago
    It is an act of mass destruction and a war crime, that Ukraine was very worried about for some time since it will kill many innocent people. Very, very unlikely they did it. My first bet would be the dam failed from russian negligence / mismanagement, second the russians blew it up. But there will certainly be video of what happened today soon.

bullen 3y ago

I we focus on the largest nuclear power plant in Europe for a minute. Are all reactors completely shut off? Is there any danger of meltdown?

jnsaff2 3y ago
Reactors have been shut down for about half a year. So the hard part is over but they still need quite a bit of water.
- jnsaff2 3y ago
  More info: > "Water from the Kakhovsky Reservoir is necessary for the station to receive power for turbine capacitors and safety systems of the ZNPP. The station's cooling pond is now full: as of 8:00 a.m., the water level is 16.6 meters, which is sufficient for the station's needs." Source: https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1665959896481685507 https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/166595989648168550...
perihelions 3y ago
Of course it's totally unsafe: it's in a war zone. It's on the current, active front line of a warzone. If this dam collapse doesn't cause a catastrophic spent fuel nuclear disaster in the next few hours, there's still imminent danger of that from any number of different causes – most visibly, military actions occurring right next to (or inside of!) the power plant. The IAEA messaging has been extremely shrill about this for like a continuous year, and no one listens. e.g. - "After nearly nine months of failed efforts to forge an agreement between Ukraine and Russia to establish a protection zone around the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant (ZNPP), Rafael Mariano Grossi, the head of the International Atomic Energy Agency, is now pushing for a new proposal to reduce the possibility of a catastrophic nuclear disaster." https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/05/22/ukraine-zaporizhzhia-nuclear-plant-grossi/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2023/05/22/ukraine-zapo... (May 22) and - "Ukraine’s Zaporizhzhya Nuclear Power Plant (ZNPP) has been without external back-up power for three months now, leaving it extremely vulnerable in case the sole functioning main power line goes down again" https://www.iaea.org/newscenter/pressreleases/update-160-iaea-director-general-statement-on-situation-in-ukraine https://www.iaea.org/newscenter/pressreleases/update-160-iae... (June 2)

marius321967 3y ago

[flagged]

fit2rule 3y ago
[dead]
dehrmann 3y ago
> either There are more than two groups who could have done this. The Wagner Group could have done it independently. Ukrainians or Russians could have done it thinking it advances their goals. Who it benefits, hurts, and who could have done it is messy.
- csomar 3y ago
  You know it could have also been damaged by the war or it needed some maintenance and then it simply blew up open. No one knows who did this but it is really beyond the point now. There is a war going on and pointing fingers only make peace harder to achieve.
csomar 3y ago
Based on this logic, it should be the USA who committed this act since it's the only country which used nuclear weapons.
dtx1 3y ago
> Meanwhile you're sitting in your comfy chairs asking for 'credible sources' and wondering which side this benefits more. But it's precisely because we're sitting in a comfy chair that we have to ask for credible sources. "Fog of War" is a real thing and disinformation campaigns have been integral to this war. Most people here couldn't pinpoint this dam on a map and it's not immediately obvious that this isn't some tactical decision by ukraine to advance their counter operation. To you it might be obvious that this is part of russias illegal war, to me it's not and i'd rather wait a few days until things clear up instead of rushing to judgement without understanding it.
- 3y ago

photochemsyn 3y ago

A propaganda war where nobody anything says can be believed about anything anyone says and the video from both sides is AI-manipulated and only 'embedded' reporting is allowed and then only from 'yellow' zones. Rather sad, isn't it, the extent to which manipulative propaganda has become the daily fare?

lawn 3y ago
What's sad is enforcing the idea that all sides use propaganda, so therefore they're all equally believable.
- somedude895 3y ago
  > all sides use propaganda All sides do use propaganda, but the idea that Western media is equal to Russian media in how much they lie in this war is definitely a ridiculous take.
- bearmode 3y ago
  If you don't think all sides use propaganda, you've clearly fallen for the propaganda of whatever side you think doesn't use it.
  - lawn 3y ago
    Wasn't my comment clear? I said that both sides use propaganda, but one side is still (much) more believable.

simion314 3y ago

If I were in charge I would blowup a similar dam in Ruzzia. Let the bastards know that there ill be consequences for this war crimes.

deadbolt 3y ago
Glad you're not in charge. Maybe you feel cool saying you'd ok an operation which would result in the deaths of more innocents, but that's an abhorrent position.
- simion314 3y ago
  And if your enemy does not have same morals? You allow them to destroy your hospitals, electric power plants, dams, your nuclear power and you keep your moral superiority? Say some piece of shit country would drop nuclear bombs on a city full of civilians, and I should not do the same back because for morality? Will not that encourage that evil country t drop more nuclear bombs? What is your opinion then, if you are losing a way with an enemy that plays dirty you give up and accept your annihilation? Your children will be brainwashed by the enemy and send t fight more evil wars.
  - BasedAnon 3y ago
    [flagged]

throwaway738585 3y ago

Note that it is the second time the dam is destroyed here. During WW2 soviets exploded the dam upstream (Zaporizhzhya dam) perishing ~100k civilians and their own military.

breput 3y ago

Edit: sorry, it is definitely not the same dam, as seen by comparing it to https://twitter.com/igorsushko/status/1665907533469581313 https://twitter.com/igorsushko/status/1665907533469581313 (NOT) Video of the actual explosion: https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1665954209156460544/pu/vid/432x320/BWpzpFFYOyYiw4Ne.mp4?tag=12 https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1665954209156460544/pu/...

valeg 3y ago
This is an old video from November last year (when ruscists retreated from Kherson).
- londons_explore 3y ago
  Posting a video that is old and not related, yet plausibly attached to a news campaign is a classic information warfare tactic. Makes you wonder where the initial news source was from...?
perihelions 3y ago
- "it is definitely not the same dam" It actually *is* the same dam — though a different incident from 2022. -"Footage verified by the BBC shows the moment a huge explosion rocks Ukraine's Nova Kakhovka dam, near Kherson." https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-63607625 https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-63607625 (12 November 2022)

wiseowise 3y ago

https://t.me/jurnko/7938 https://t.me/jurnko/7938 [Ukrainian language] Here’s a post from Kherson journalist with breakdown of Russian propagandist reactions to the situation for those who still think it’s not Russian orchestrated explosion.

cwillu 3y ago

Worth noting that this may still turn out to be accidental, in the sense that all the bombing activity around it triggered sufficient cracking in the wrong places that the normal forces (made worse by high water levels) caused a failure. To be clear, I'm not saying that this wasn't a strike, or a demolition, just that it could be an unintended failure caused by precision strikes performed on targets very near to the dam. “That latter point means that, like all concrete structures, concrete dams will crack. These cracks will be tend to be vertical, since the concrete is free to grow and shrink in the vertical dimension, while the canyon it spans is of a fixed dimension. While an arch dam will have the pressure of the water pushing these vertical cracks closed, a gravity dam has no forces acting along its axis--well, except for the temperature changes. The easiest way to deal with this is to provide a known place for the concrete to crack. Therefore, the dam is divided into monoliths, where each monolith is a separately-placed block of concrete that is more or less structurally independent of the monoliths next to it. The dividing lines between monoliths are contraction joints, and will open and close with temperature changes, sometimes quite dramatically. This is the same reason sidewalks are cut into squares and concrete highways have the joints that go "ba-dump" as you drive over them--the concrete will crack, so provide a way to make it crack in a controlled, pretty manner. [...] This will hold true for all of the concrete, but once you get to the foundation, it gets a bit tricker. The soil is not a relatively well-controlled material like the concrete. It's typically full of joints and is permeable. At the base of the dam, it's typical to assume that the full pressure of the forebay is acting at the heel and the pressure of the tailwater is acting at the toe. The total force acting upwards is typically pretty large, which is a problem: this pressure will reduce the forces acting on the foundation, and therefore the force squeezing any joints in the rock. If you remember from high school physics, it's typically assumed that frictional forces are proportional to the force squeezing two surfaces together. Therefore, this uplift pressure can reduce these forces enough that a wedge of foundation rock will slide with the dam in a foundation failure. This is the typical cause of failure in a large gravity dam. I've shown with a dashed line what that uplift pressure would look like under the monolith, if we let it reach its natural state. However, we have some tricks that we can use to dramatically reduce this uplift pressure. I've drawn a grout curtain and foundation drains extending from the bottom of the dam. The grout curtain is a "wall" of portland cement grout, formed by drilling through the bottom of the dam from the drainage gallery and injecting the grout under pressure. It's typically much deeper than I've shown here, as I ran out of room on the paper. This curtain will increase the path length for flow lines, which will primarily serve to reduce the volume of water flowing under the dam. ” -- “Effort Post: Concrete Gravity Dam” https://www.datasecretslox.com/index.php/topic,215.msg3582.h https://www.datasecretslox.com/index.php/topic,215.msg3582.h... (see also parts II and III at https://www.datasecretslox.com/index.php/topic,1012.msg19813 https://www.datasecretslox.com/index.php/topic,1012.msg19813... and https://www.datasecretslox.com/index.php/topic,1359.msg31228 https://www.datasecretslox.com/index.php/topic,1359.msg31228...)

_kbh_ 3y ago

This attack is a flagrant violation of the Geneva convention and a war crime. Russia must be punished for doing this or allowing it to happen.

nikanj 3y ago
But punishing russia is bad for the economy so EU will issue very strongly worded press releases instead
- BasedAnon 3y ago
  *punishing russia is a threat to your own citizenry which relies on the economy to feed their families. The economy isn't some alien abstract entity.
martindbp 3y ago
More weapons and permission to strike military targets in Russia seems like a proportional response. Otherwise, what's the response for blowing up a nuclear power plant in the future? Slap on the fingers? Russia keeps escalating, it's clear now that this can only be allowed to end with the full defeat of the Russian military. Whether the dam was blown up or collapsed due to damage is just the difference between shooting someone and slowly poisoning them, it's still murder.
BasedAnon 3y ago
[flagged]

2-718-281-828 3y ago

if we're already at it - have you heard about the freedom of russia legion? allegedly russian citizens turning against their own government. everything i could gather about that group smells to high heaven and nobody questions that narrative. pro-ukrainian media basically just praises those selfless heroes for their action. but none of it makes any sense. neither psychologically, nor militarily, nor socially, nor politically - any theories on what's going on with that?

polotics 3y ago
Oh wow how did you manage to get good sources about the state of the CIS's psychology, society, or for that matter military? Do you have access to FSB's secret polls? How does polling work if the wrong answer gets you 15 years in a penal colony?

kuboris 3y ago

The destruction of the Nova Kakhovka dam by Russians follows almost exactly all the other heinous crimes Russians have committed: 1. Execute the crime 2. Laugh and brag 3. Realize the catastrophe 4. Change the story and blame others https://twitter.com/Tendar/status/1666033978841636866 https://twitter.com/Tendar/status/1666033978841636866

skjoldr 3y ago

I want to remind everyone that the irrigation of the entire south Kherson oblast depended on the Crimean channel, providing around 17% of Ukraine's agricultural output, and the water supply to some of the largest cities in the area such as Kherson and Krivuy Rih was also dependent on that water reservoir. Not to mention the colossal flooding and displacement of tens of thousands of Ukrainian people. This act had ruined a chunk of Ukraine's future. It's extremely unlikely Ukraine had anything to do with it or anything to gain which would compensate the economic loss.

gomizari 3y ago

Ukrainians confessed multiple times they attacked it with HIMARSes: 1) https://www.bbc.com/russian/news-62533233 https://www.bbc.com/russian/news-62533233 2) https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/12/29/ukraine-offensive-kharkiv-kherson-donetsk/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/12/29/ukraine-offe... "Kovalchuk considered flooding the river. The Ukrainians, he said, even conducted a test strike with a HIMARS launcher on one of the floodgates at the Nova Kakhovka dam, making three holes in the metal to see if the Dnieper’s water could be raised enough to stymie Russian crossings but not flood nearby villages."

_kbh_ 3y ago
The Russians intentionally increased the water level of the dam to cause the most damage and then intentionally blew it up. At least two Russian soldiers have said they would blow the damn / they blew the dam and have admitted as much in camera. Russia was celebrating this before they realised it was a war crime then they went into their typical deny and deflect everything mode.
- gomizari 3y ago
  It's probably another way around: Ukrainians intentionally increased the water level of the dam, since they control dams up the Dnieper river.
  - _kbh_ 3y ago
    Or you know since Ukraine doesn’t control the literal weather it would be hard to control the water level in a river. Russia controlled whether or not they opened the spill gates they didn’t and it is obviously an intentional build up to do as much damage a possible.

Chief180A 3y ago

It look like the most anticipated Ukrainian offensive had begun, but was blunted by the Russians After this occurred, it stands to reason that the Ukrainian government would like a reason for not losing any more men and material so why not blow up the dam and damage most of the defensive positions the Russians had prepared and give an excuse for not going on with the offensive. And of course ask for more money and weapons so who did this benefit and you don’t have to be a mental giant to figure out that this was more damaging to Russia and the Crimea than to Ukraine. And remember, we were all told that the Russia blew up its own pipe line in the North Sea as well, confirmed by US officials both military and state department, of course they would not lie to us again right? Look at the lay of the land and facts, the Crimean region relies on that water for agriculture and industrial/domestic water supplies much more than the Ukraine does. Think for yourselves and don’t be led around by politically motivated people.

Chief180A 3y ago

Think for yourselves look at facts Are there pictures of an explosion? Seems like there should be with all the satellites and drones in the area. The Crimea region depends much more on the water from that dam than the Ukraine does for agriculture and domestic water sources. Who lied to us about the Russian Pipe line being blown up saying Putin did it and now we know that the Ukraine did it of course with the knowledge and probable help of the US. Ukraine offensive had started and had been stopped.

_kbh_ 3y ago
> Think for yourselves look at facts Are there pictures of an explosion? Seems like there should be with all the satellites and drones in the area. Yes there is there’s even a video of it. > Ukraine offensive had started and had been stopped. The offensive hasn’t even started those tracts of land Russia is losing to Ukraine are from _probing attacks_.

KETpXDDzR 3y ago

Some russians bragged about putting explosives at the dam half a year ago: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=arUHJzXCfsU https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=arUHJzXCfsU